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Valentin posted:rip twice, sorry dude, straight up no one cares that you died, sad man's second parade was a bust narratively, you were a terrible friend to toga, and hawks probably isn't gonna be a real character or otherwise addressed in this manga again well I mean...yeah, twice was kind of a bad friend. he encouraged her to murder people.
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Jul 14, 2023 18:06
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yeah that's what i'm saying. people got really invested for years in the idea of the league of villains as a little found family of marginalized villains but it makes perfect sense both in terms of what we've been shown and what we should expect from the genre that it ends with horikoshi being like "idk, the depressed unemployed man with severe issues telling the teenager she should just kill people was probably not actually good or healthy in any way." it's just pretty funny that avenging twice was theoretically toga's whole deal in this final sequence and sad man's parade is probably honestly the high point of this whole manga and in the end none of the clones even bothered to schlep the 20 miles or whatever to find and beat up the depowered hawks
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Jul 14, 2023 18:14
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Actually it's cool and good and funny when she stabs people.
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Jul 14, 2023 18:15
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Valentin posted:yeah that's what i'm saying. people got really invested for years in the idea of the league of villains as a little found family of marginalized villains but it makes perfect sense both in terms of what we've been shown and what we should expect from the genre that it ends with horikoshi being like "idk, the depressed unemployed man with severe issues telling the teenager she should just kill people was probably not actually good or healthy in any way." it's just pretty funny that avenging twice was theoretically toga's whole deal in this final sequence and sad man's parade is probably honestly the high point of this whole manga and in the end none of the clones even bothered to schlep the 20 miles or whatever to find and beat up the depowered hawks oh yea this is pretty much my feelings on it. After a point it became pretty clear that horikoshi had no intention of actually following through with the implications of any of the plot threads he'd set up. Quirk racism, endeavor's hosed up web of abuse, the hero association murdering anyone who threatens their status quo. the solution to all of these problems is to be extra niceys. No need to hold anyone accountable or even really acknowledge the avalanche of tragedies that led to where we are today.
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Jul 14, 2023 18:29
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Also Mr. Compress is in jail with a mechanical rear end and
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Jul 14, 2023 18:41
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Toga doesn't even know where Hawks is or how to find him and it's clear that Horikoshi has chosen to make her more mad at all of hero society than him specifically. Also they've never interacted or thought about each other. I don't know if she even knows he's the one who killed Twice or what his whole deal is as a Public Safety agent. I get some people want to see Hawks die as vengeance for Twice but imo this was much better than Toga suddenly wanting to kill Hawks when they haven't interacted at all in the story and that getting in the middle of her and Uraraka's fight. MHA has always been at it's best with the simple emotional beats between two oppositional characters. Besides which Hawks got burnt to poo poo and has lost his quirk, I think he's suffered enough already.
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Jul 14, 2023 18:47
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Jul 14, 2023 18:54
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i generally agree (i find hawks very whatever and i think the more interesting thing that toga takes away from twice's death than her grief/desire for revenge is that she fully buys into the kill-or-be-killed philosophy that hawks espouses (which i think the uraraka stuff has underaddressed in turn)), but she did actually literally say it was her goal like half a year ago
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Jul 14, 2023 18:55
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Welp, I forgot about that. My bad. I still stand by my point that in-universe she (and Kurogiri) doesn't even know where the gently caress he is and out of universe that what we got is much stronger than dragging him into this plot. Also iirc she has been trying to get away to start killing heroes and Uraraka just keeps catching back up to her and refusing to drop the point.
Nephthys fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Jul 14, 2023 |
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Jul 14, 2023 18:58
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I do agree it isn’t necessary for toga to confront and/or kill hawks, my issue is more with the larger issue that twice’s death was a symptom of has gone completely unaddressed. toga’s mad cause the government assassinated her friend and her anger is resolved by completely ignoring it. kinda makes it look like toga was more concerned with what twice did for her than it being wrong to murder him. it’s not even that i liked twice, poo poo if i were in hawks’s wings i probly woulda killed him too. it’s more that the nuance of the situation has been squashed down to make it easier to write. uraraka kinda sucks in the way she totally ignored toga’s very real issues with hero society and instead bombarded her with generic platitudes until toga gave in
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Jul 14, 2023 19:14
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TheHan posted:I do agree it isn’t necessary for toga to confront and/or kill hawks, my issue is more with the larger issue that twice’s death was a symptom of has gone completely unaddressed. toga’s mad cause the government assassinated her friend and her anger is resolved by completely ignoring it. kinda makes it look like toga was more concerned with what twice did for her than it being wrong to murder him. I agree with everything you said here, though I can't be completely upset because the last few panels were 
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Jul 14, 2023 19:22
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Twice sucked. Twice sucked so much that Twice killed Twice, multiple times. One of him might have even killed him, twice.
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Jul 14, 2023 19:27
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Okay having read more into it. It's all just...falling so insanely flat for me. Like yeah I get the whole themes of rehabilitation and heros saving people and being empathic and all of that good fun jazz, but I just find the League of Villains to be so unsympathetic that it just falls apart for me. Yes you guys went through terrible abuse and fell through the cracks of a broken lovely system that was unequipped ir unwilling to provide proper help and assistance, you're STILL committing mass murder on a massive scale as well as complete societal collapse. I'm also confused about the Hawks thing since as I have it understood, either Hawks kills Twice or Twice kills a whole bunch of people. There was some stuff about mind control or Twice not being in control of his actions, but the point would still stand as tragic as it is.
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Jul 14, 2023 20:58
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TheHan posted:I do agree it isn’t necessary for toga to confront and/or kill hawks, my issue is more with the larger issue that twice’s death was a symptom of has gone completely unaddressed. toga’s mad cause the government assassinated her friend and her anger is resolved by completely ignoring it. kinda makes it look like toga was more concerned with what twice did for her than it being wrong to murder him. She's mad that society basically gave up on Twice and killed him, which triggers her because she feels that society also gave up on her. She's worried that this means that the same thing is going to happen to her where she's just branded a villain, the whole of society turns its back on her, and is killed or tossed in jail for the rest of her life. But Uraraka did address this by promising to not give up on her, to give her blood for the rest of her life if she wants it, and genuinely empathized with her. Sure, Toga is still probably going to go to spend some time in prison (or something like it, she is still underage). It's not like Uraraka could possibly stop that from happening and well, Toga did kill a bunch of people after all. I don't think it would really stick well if she got the Naruto special and got off completely scot-free, but who knows how the series will handle this? I could easily see Toga in some work-release program or doomrider7 posted:Okay having read more into it. It's all just...falling so insanely flat for me. Like yeah I get the whole themes of rehabilitation and heros saving people and being empathic and all of that good fun jazz, but I just find the League of Villains to be so unsympathetic that it just falls apart for me. Yes you guys went through terrible abuse and fell through the cracks of a broken lovely system that was unequipped ir unwilling to provide proper help and assistance, you're STILL committing mass murder on a massive scale as well as complete societal collapse. I'm also confused about the Hawks thing since as I have it understood, either Hawks kills Twice or Twice kills a whole bunch of people. There was some stuff about mind control or Twice not being in control of his actions, but the point would still stand as tragic as it is. I don't think Hawks killing Twice is really condemned as wrong by the narrative, it was objectively the right thing to do in that situation. It's more a tragedy that shouldn't have had to have happened in the first place and Uraraka managing to talk Toga down like this is being shown as how heroes should be trying to handle villains going forward. Nephthys fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Jul 14, 2023 |
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Jul 14, 2023 21:01
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After joining class A, Toga spends her free time filming TikTok dances on the sidewalk in front of the house of that one grandma she unceremoniously killed off screen for a 5 minute disguise. Grandma's widowed husband watches from the window. The system has been fixed. 
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Jul 14, 2023 21:35
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Nephthys posted:Welp, I forgot about that. My bad. I still stand by my point that in-universe she (and Kurogiri) doesn't even know where the gently caress he is and out of universe that what we got is much stronger than dragging him into this plot. Also iirc she has been trying to get away to start killing heroes and Uraraka just keeps catching back up to her and refusing to drop the point. given the nature of her powers I’m sure they could have bs’d her having some sort of search power stockpiled to find the little chicken man
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Jul 14, 2023 21:52
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Nephthys posted:
Yeah, Hawks killing twice wasn't wrong, but it was still a failure. Heroes save people, and Hawks was unable to save Twice. Uraraka (and Deku) managing to reach people who society had abandoned and turn their lives around is why the new generation of heroes is an improvement on the old. We saw with Endeavor and Gentle that the manga believes there's a lot of room between "get off unpunished" and "locked away for life", so presumably Toga's going to have to pay her debts somehow. It's just going to be paying her debts in a way that shows people care about her and want her to live the best life she can.
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Jul 14, 2023 22:29
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chiasaur11 posted:Yeah, Hawks killing twice wasn't wrong, but it was still a failure. Heroes save people, and Hawks was unable to save Twice. Uraraka (and Deku) managing to reach people who society had abandoned and turn their lives around is why the new generation of heroes is an improvement on the old. It's also worth noting that Toga was terrified of being captured because she (probably correctly) assumed that if she was captured her Blood quirk would be treated as something that needs to be 'fixed' and not an innate part of who she is. It becomes an entirely different story if she's given actual rehabilitation and treatment versus being stuck in a supermax cell and treated like a vampire.
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Jul 14, 2023 22:53
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The issue I've always had with the framing of the Toga stuff is that it's only really sympathetic if you keep things *really* abstract and don't think about the level of direct suffering/violation incurred on the victims. It is - literally - a situation where someone has a form of attraction that is taboo in their society. It's not hard to think of real-life parallels. Forcibly acting on that attraction towards others without their consent is still exactly as bad as it sounds, and it's only made more sympathetic by keeping it abstract and not giving much attention to the victims. That being said, it's still inherently sympathetic on the simple basis of Toga being a minor (and the punishment should be limited for that same reason), but I don't think it's meaningfully different from a minor committing any other crime. So Toga isn't really more sympathetic than any other teenager who commits a terrible crime. Any minor who commits crimes deserves leeway simply by virtue of being a minor (who literally doesn't have a fully matured brain), but it doesn't change the nature of the crime itself.
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Jul 14, 2023 23:31
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The problem is Toga was given transparently inadequate treatment along the lines of trying to shock the gay away and surprise surprise it didn’t solve anything. She’s very much in control of and responsible for a large amount of what has transpired but there are heroes with incredibly dangerous quirks that have managed to survive and thrive because they had the appropriate supports that she didn’t receive. If nothing else, the fact that she should be capable of being the greatest blood donor on Earth means there absolutely should have been a place for her in Hero society.
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Jul 14, 2023 23:49
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When it comes to empathising with these characters I think one thing to bare in mind is that we're coming at this from the perspective of relatively normal people. But a Hero can't be a mere normal person, they're going to have to deal with a lot of Toga's and have to be capable of handling the situation better than you or I could. Think of real-world examples: A hostage negotiator has to be able to make a connection with the hostage taker and try to de-escalate the situation. Police officers should (in a perfect world) be able to talk down someone with a weapon to stop them from hurting themselves or others. A therapist working in a prison has to be able to empathise with and try to reform people who might have done terrible things. Judging and condemning these people doesn't help anyone in any of these cases. These are all situations a Hero might find themselves in and they need to do better than they are in the MHA world. Remember when Shigaraki gave a big speech to Endeavor about how Heroes can't understand Villains and that's why they exist? Dude was loving right on the money and Endeavor didn't give a poo poo. Nephthys fucked around with this message at 00:02 on Jul 15, 2023 |
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Jul 15, 2023 00:00
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lol Hawks killing Twice was absolutely wrong. He was helpless and Hawks very specifically stabs him to death from behind as he's trying to flee. Hawks was like psychotically determined to end his life and the way it's visually presented makes him look as much like a psycho killer as any of the villains. Hawks isn't going to face any societal punishment in the end despite being a literal trained assassin for the government to commit extrajudicial murders. His comeuppance is just getting his rear end kicked and his quirk stolen. Endeavor is hated but really he should be in loving jail for beating his wife and kids for the better part of 2 decades. The heroes who are morally grey are getting their punishment via just fighting in a suicidal manner and getting maimed. The league getting the Orochimaru treatment would make more sense than it did for Orochimaru.
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Jul 15, 2023 00:08
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Is Mirko dead? It's honestly kinda hard to tell at points during this big debacle what's happening to who
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Jul 15, 2023 00:17
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Nephthys posted:When it comes to empathising with these characters I think one thing to bare in mind is that we're coming at this from the perspective of relatively normal people. But a Hero can't be a mere normal person, they're going to have to deal with a lot of Toga's and have to be capable of handling the situation better than you or I could. That's true, and I'm not faulting Ochaco in the slightest. My issue is more with the narrative framing that seems to be implying that Toga's actions were something she was driven to by society. Society is at fault for not adequately dealing with the issues she has, but she went far beyond what would have been understandable given what she was dealing with. The most sympathetic thing about Toga's situation is the simple fact that she's a minor, and that would be true regardless of why she did the things she did. Though I get why the story can't really center that, since most of the characters are also minors.
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Jul 15, 2023 00:24
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I'm ok with blaming society
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Jul 15, 2023 00:28
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I'm okay with blaming society but this manga should have had more opportunities for deku to punch society. when sasuke is like "actually the leaf village is evil" kishimoto made up a guy who was the Evilest Leaf Village Guy with an arm full of dead uchiha eyes so he could represent the hosed up things in ninja society(?) and have a fight scene all at the same time. too much of MHA is "society is the problem, but since it's not punchable, we're gonna have to fight these sympathetic villains." boring! e: I realize the above is slightly askew from the convo re toga's moral culpability or whatever but I gotta be honest I think that convo is always an intractable mess mostly BECAUSE all the stuff about people falling through the cracks is left to horikoshi's iffy worldbuilding and character writing instead of just being processed through a fight scene as the genre usually calls for. toga's redemption or lack thereof would be less of a subject of discourse if "hero society is corrosive and oppressive" were actually part of the main bigfights narrative and not relegated to villain backstory only and always Valentin fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Jul 15, 2023 |
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Jul 15, 2023 00:36
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The heroes do really have their hands tied since they explicitly want to solve the problem of “how do you rehabilitate people who have done reprehensible things” but the writer doesn’t know how.
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Jul 15, 2023 00:58
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Well it's kind of a problem with the the medium in general. You have to sell the setting is being really cool. Like no matter how hosed it all is in the background (necessary for there to be conflict to resolve), envisioning yourself being trained as a badass superpowered ninja or going to superhero high school to be rich and famous is cool. So well, unless you want to do a lot of legwork to sell it, you can't really end with "Okay this super cool premise you like? That's bad, actually and it needs to stop".
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Jul 15, 2023 01:07
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And yet you participate in society. Curious!
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Jul 15, 2023 01:10
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Waffleman_ posted:Is Mirko dead? It's honestly kinda hard to tell at points during this big debacle what's happening to who Not dead, just a chicken nugget
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Jul 15, 2023 01:12
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Fabricated posted:lol Hawks killing Twice was absolutely wrong. He was helpless and Hawks very specifically stabs him to death from behind as he's trying to flee. Hawks was like psychotically determined to end his life and the way it's visually presented makes him look as much like a psycho killer as any of the villains. this is loving batshit lol
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Jul 15, 2023 01:26
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Ytlaya posted:That's true, and I'm not faulting Ochaco in the slightest. My issue is more with the narrative framing that seems to be implying that Toga's actions were something she was driven to by society. Society is at fault for not adequately dealing with the issues she has, but she went far beyond what would have been understandable given what she was dealing with. That's kimd of my issue. Society is ay fault and hosed up on how to deal with her issues, but the response being mass murder and societal destruction on a National scale throws whatever sympathy and empathy possible out of whack if not fully out the window.
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Jul 15, 2023 01:26
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Waffleman_ posted:And yet you participate in society. Curious! All for One will literally say this when he dies.
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Jul 15, 2023 01:48
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TheHan posted:I do agree it isn’t necessary for toga to confront and/or kill hawks, my issue is more with the larger issue that twice’s death was a symptom of has gone completely unaddressed. toga’s mad cause the government assassinated her friend and her anger is resolved by completely ignoring it. kinda makes it look like toga was more concerned with what twice did for her than it being wrong to murder him. That's kind of the issue when all of the characters in the main cast (aside from Bakugo, Mineta, and Iida briefly when his brother was stabbed) are pretty much 180% nice with no objectionable traits, but also, more importantly, entirely separated from the sphere of corruption in hero society which cropped up, got stamped out, and left in the dust without leaving any impact on the core cast. So now you have a bunch of villains wronged by a part of society that no longer exists anymore yelling and screaming at borderline saint-like figures for... not being born sooner, I guess?
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Jul 15, 2023 02:27
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CharlestonJew posted:I’m pretty sure togas clones tore a dude in half a chapter or two ago. That girls going to jail for life Twice did it
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Jul 15, 2023 07:45
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Waffleman_ posted:Is Mirko dead? It's honestly kinda hard to tell at points during this big debacle what's happening to who She just lost her legs about 8 times.
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Jul 15, 2023 10:21
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Waffleman_ posted:Is Mirko dead? It's honestly kinda hard to tell at points during this big debacle what's happening to who You really think that All 4 One and Tomura could pull off what Elmer Fudd failed to do for all those years?
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Jul 15, 2023 11:39
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https://www.viz.com/shonenjump/my-hero-academia-chapter-394/chapter/39717?action=read https://mangaplus.shueisha.co.jp/viewer/1018188 Ochaco Uraraka  vs. Himigo TogaNow let's move on.
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Jul 17, 2023 06:20
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Hope they can be happy together.
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Jul 17, 2023 06:28
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I hope they can "vs." each other 4-5 times a week, work schedules permitting.
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Jul 17, 2023 06:30
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