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This is more of a general commentary on Soup Sup rather than analysis of specific events, so I won't bother spoilering. I think the parallel that the author is going for is that Artonans are about as evil as your average American is supposed to be. Usually fine in person and even willing to do a lot to help an individual in need, but still benefitting from the larger structure that's exploiting the rest of the world and not thinking about it too much, and often obliviously lovely to "the help". Even most of the shittier ones are not King Leopold lovely, they're just the family in Knives Out lovely. Once Earth inevitably decouples from them, the relations will probably normalize relatively soon.
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Jul 15, 2023 00:19
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Bremen posted:Note that (SupSup, not sure what chapter, I think around 50ish?) Both Joe and Kibby's father believed that Kibby would have a better life as a talented scientist than a mediocre wizard, so while it's true non wizards are second class citizens it apparently can't be that unpleasant a divide. I think it's more that the Artonans aren't the sort of malicious evil you tend to see in other similar stories (because those stories usually aren't very good). But we also have seen very little of Artonan society. We've just seen an elite Wizard university, a very atypical powerful wizard outside of their mainstream society, their brave self-sacrificing Knight class, and some non-wizards connected to the atypical wizard. We know very little about broader Artonan society or their government (though what we find out is unlikely to be some dark malicious secret). And while you're correct about being an expert non-wizard being better than a lovely wizard, their society still seems very stratified. We don't know how things are for "average" Artonans. Megazver posted:This is more of a general commentary on Soup Sup rather than analysis of specific events, so I won't bother spoilering. I feel like this analogy doesn't work that well (at least given what we know so far) because we haven't seen the Artonans do anything even remotely in the same ballpark to what the US does to the rest of the world. It's like if the US just went into countries and forced them to give 0.07% of their populations a contract that they're usually fine with, even if it's often misleading/dishonest. There's probably other stuff going on (like whatever the deal is with Gorgon's race), but I don't think the Artona/Earth relationship is really analogous to something like US imperialism. It seems like it's just its own thing that will be connected with the setting's greater background/metaphysics in some way. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 01:36 on Jul 15, 2023 |
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Jul 15, 2023 01:24
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Bremen posted:(SupSup 46) Maybe you would have a point if it was just Joe, but Kibby's father was also an educated member of the non-wizard class. And he was also the one that wanted to double check the safety of Alden's transport method instead of trusting Joe's message before he let Alden take his kids. So it's more that the second class citizen agrees that being a successful second class citizen is better than being a struggling first class one. I'm not saying the whole second class citizen thing isn't bullshit but I think the "reveal" if there is one is going to be that it's a lot more nuanced than someone who reads "second class citizen" is going to initially think. Maybe. My point is that the fact that it's Alden's interpretation of what a little girl who is only alive because she's a wizard said about what her dad who died due to not-being-a-wizard said about why she shouldn't be a wizard makes unreliable narrator shenanigans more likely than usual. We're not even getting the second class citizen's opinion direct from him, on account of him being dead, so there's enough wiggle room there to drive a whole bus full of kids who died of not-being-a-wizard through.
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Jul 15, 2023 01:33
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Megazver posted:This is more of a general commentary on Soup Sup rather than analysis of specific events, so I won't bother spoilering. I have been thinking, reading the series and some commentary on it, that people are overestimating how cartoonish and obvious societal evils like colonialism were. People in colonial empires, even people of significant power and influence, had all sorts of opinions on the institution. Some of them were just out to exploit its targets, obviously, but many genuinely thought it a good, temporary practice, that would "raise up" other countries (by which they mean make them resemble their own country more) and would eventually end with the two parties as equals. And some thought it was abhorrent, but it existed, so they'd work around it in politics however they could and try not to make things worse. It's not like everyone in the country that was the seat of empire was casually cruel all the time. The institution was bad, obviously, and it had a corrosive impact on society, but it didn't turn everyone into monsters. In some respects, Artonan hegemony is much better for the worlds under its influence than historical colonial empires were, but in others it's actually much worse (at least, much worse than some of them): for example, there were lots of empires in which local elites could send their children to get a first-class education in the metropole.
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Jul 15, 2023 02:09
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Checked out a new arrival to the Rising Stars, Evil to Eden: Turning a Haunted Castle into a Bed and Breakfast (Slice of Life LitRPG). I'll just post the blurb:quote:From Haunting to Hosting: A Cozy, Slice of Life LitRPG! It's above average for a RR slice-of-life, I Followed it.
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Jul 15, 2023 16:51
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cultureulterior posted:I'm recently reading TIME TO ORBIT: UNKNOWN, which is a novel about a colonization attempt going incredibly wrong. The main character wakes up from cryosleep to a *situation*, which proceeds to get worse. https://derinstories.com/2022/06/04/001-the-problem-with-the-javelin-program/ guess I'll have to give it a go, thanks
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Jul 15, 2023 17:48
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Megazver posted:I think the parallel that the author is going for is that Artonans are about as evil as your average American is supposed to be. I've read it as more about Britain, and I don't think you have to stretch too much to find historical parallels for the four Artonian schools of thought: Beasts of Burden: Colonial Companies (pure exploitation) Existential Threat: Imperialists (chaos/other European powers will use them against us if we don't control them + fear of colonies becoming too powerful) Children to Teach: Kipling and "The White Man's Burden" Gifts from the Universe: Missionaries (Spreading Christianity and System Magic) Things like systemically developing colonial militaries also seem a poor fit for the American interpretation when compared with Britain (e.g. Gurkhas), although I may have holes in my understanding of history here. Whether or not there's a specific parallel the author intends, I think it's good and important for the genre that both Super Supportive and Slumrat both have something to say and think about.
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Jul 15, 2023 17:52
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cultureulterior posted:I'm recently reading TIME TO ORBIT: UNKNOWN, which is a novel about a colonization attempt going incredibly wrong. The main character wakes up from cryosleep to a *situation*, which proceeds to get worse. this novel loving rules
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Jul 16, 2023 04:14
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cultureulterior posted:I'm recently reading TIME TO ORBIT: UNKNOWN, which is a novel about a colonization attempt going incredibly wrong. The main character wakes up from cryosleep to a *situation*, which proceeds to get worse. I have just read the first three chapters and I am thoroughly hooked, this is a lovely read.
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Jul 16, 2023 07:48
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dis good
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Jul 16, 2023 08:34
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cyrn posted:I've read it as more about Britain, and I don't think you have to stretch too much to find historical parallels for the four Artonian schools of thought: I think the core issue with analogies to real-life imperialism is that there isn't any wealth extraction happening (at least that we're aware of), and most Avowed aren't even used as any sort of military (and to the extent that they are, it's not in the pursuit of wealth extraction). Plus the fact that the sort of labor involved genuinely can't be done by Artonans, since (spoiler from some chapter in the 50s) only species without an authority sense can affix skills (or modify themselves with foundation stats) without it being existential torture for them. And then there's the role Avowed fill in Artonan society, which seems to give them higher status than the average Artonan. But the lack of any meaningful wealth (or labor) extraction is really the biggest issue - 0.07% of the population having to spend a tiny minority of their time being summoned doesn't represent a significant level of labor exploitation, even if you ignore that the work is also highly compensated and Earth benefits from the same superpowers. Basically, various elements of the setting's metaphysics conflict with any attempted analogies along these lines (which is probably for the best as far as the story is concerned). And there's also the various theories that the creation of Avowed might have some direct metaphysical purpose (like it somehow being a way to counteract the spread of chaos or whatever), which would also be a completely separate reason for Artonans encourage other worlds to sign the contract. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Jul 16, 2023 |
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Jul 16, 2023 09:55
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I don't think that extraction capitalism is the angle for this story on what we assume to be imperialism. You'd see a lot more misery and death if that was the case as well as a lot more of a push for authoritarianism in order to facilitate the extraction of whatever the Artonans want. What actually seems to be important are avowed, who are a tiny portion of the population and chaos, which mutates and kills whatever it comes into contact with. I personally think that chaos is a waste product of whatever process that keeps the Artonan imperial core functioning. Probably magic or more likely word chains or something else like it that creates imbalance and exceptional amounts of concentrated imbalance manifests as chaos. Like imagine that family that controls luck whose name I forget. They have a powerful control over word chains and experience excellent luck followed by a snap back of extreme bad luck. That family isn't very good by Artonan standards, but they're extremely powerful by Earth standards. Not long after reading that my mind went to, "Huh, what would happen if they didn't have to accept all of that poo poo luck and could just dump it on some poor, dumb bastard who doesn't know any better?" I can certainly imagine that many elites would be thrilled to experience constant good luck, constant happiness or whatever positive things that you could create with word chains and then personally experience none of the consequences by dumping it either somewhere else or on someone else. And what you end up with is a kind of magical pollution that is constantly building up and it constantly needs dumping. For example, imagine bad luck so profound that it kills and mutates poo poo that is created at an industrial scale. I assume that Earth for example had no chaos pre-Artonans because it isn't a lifeless wasteland. Then when the Artonans show up, you get chaos. A very mild case, but it's there. Once a year some chaos monster shows up on Earth at a predetermined place, everyone jumps it and beats the poo poo out of it until it is no more. So either the Artonans are really good at predicting where chaos will show up or it's purposefully being put there. And the planet that Alden and Kibby were on was a backwater that they knew was good for studying chaos. Where better to dump trash than on some lovely little nowhere planet that no one cares about? And when the chaos gets too bad, someone is dispatched to clean it up. So my guess is that chaos is something akin to industrial waste caused by "imbalance" and in order to create narrative stakes for Earth, that a buildup of chaos is cumulative. As the imbalance gets worse, the worse that the chaos gets and avowed from other planets are chosen to go deal with it. Maybe it's not an immediate problem, but a buildup of chaos pollution long term would definitely be a problem for Earth. So the only options are to stop creating the waste byproduct that is chaos and find a way to stop accepting it or find some other chumps to dump it on. Dumping pollution to the extent that it becomes an increasing environmental disaster and negatively impacts the people that live there is part of the receiving end of the colonial experience. I think it makes sense as a possible explanation for where the story is going. Or I could be completely wrong. Dunno. Ice Phisherman fucked around with this message at 10:52 on Jul 16, 2023 |
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Jul 16, 2023 10:16
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I also think resource worlds is a misnomer and that its mostly a magical dumping ground. There's also the question if artonans are from our universe or another universe altogether. Could be that they hosed up their universe completely and the only way they can keep chaos at bay is finding other places to dump chaos.
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Jul 16, 2023 11:49
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Affi posted:I also think resource worlds is a misnomer and that its mostly a magical dumping ground. Alden mentions a few times their home worlds and Earth are in different dimensions/universes I asked the author in the QA how the Artonans found Earth since their home planets and ours are in different universes, and whether any of their resource worlds are in the same universe as their home worlds. She said the answer to the first might be a spoiler since she may cover how some time and so didn't answer The answer to the second was yes, there are resource worlds in their own universe
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Jul 16, 2023 12:08
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A big flaming stink posted:this novel loving rules
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Jul 16, 2023 15:05
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oh no! Things got worse.
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Jul 16, 2023 15:14
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Ytlaya posted:I think the core issue with analogies to real-life imperialism is that there isn't any wealth extraction happening (at least that we're aware of), and most Avowed aren't even used as any sort of military (and to the extent that they are, it's not in the pursuit of wealth extraction). Plus the fact that the sort of labor involved genuinely can't be done by Artonans, since Patreon spoiler goes here And then there's the role Avowed fill in Artonan society, which seems to give them higher status than the average Artonan. But the lack of any meaningful wealth (or labor) extraction is really the biggest issue - 0.07% of the population having to spend a tiny minority of their time being summoned doesn't represent a significant level of labor exploitation, even if you ignore that the work is also highly compensated and Earth benefits from the same superpowers. You might want to label that a Patreon spoiler. It's technically wealth extraction, but it's extracting wealth the colonized region wouldn't be using. This isn't uncommon for imperialism. And yeah, Earth benefits in ways that can be easily pointed at, which isn't unheard of for real world colonialism either. It's a much nicer form of imperialism than happened historically but the parallels are there. Also it's possible the other shoe has yet to drop.
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Jul 16, 2023 15:34
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SupSup 63-ish: The primary says the knights are working to hold together the fraying thread of their reality. We know that according to Joe, the avowed and knights are a way to "manage a problem that can never be truly solved." We know that the Atonans met Gorgon's people, and now Gorgon's home dimension has been shattered by chaos and he wants revenge. We know the Artonans take 0.07 percent of humanity as slaves. It is wild to me to look at all this and conclude that the Artonans aren't really exploiting their resource worlds that badly. They are. I do agree that the Artonans are not incarnations of evil or anything. Exploitation happens because people have wants and needs, and exploitation can often be a very effective way to satisfy them.
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Jul 16, 2023 16:35
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Wittgen posted:SupSup 63-ish: The primary says the knights are working to hold together the fraying thread of their reality. We know that according to Joe, the avowed and knights are a way to "manage a problem that can never be truly solved." We know that the Atonans met Gorgon's people, and now Gorgon's home dimension has been shattered by chaos and he wants revenge. We know the Artonans take 0.07 percent of humanity as slaves. Slaves seems excessive. It's true they can't completely opt out, but they can refuse to agree and therefor almost never be summoned. It's just that most avowed really want to be summoned. At most, it's sweatshop labor in an impoverished country eagerly signing up because while the conditions are inhumane by our standards it's a better life than they'd get. And (SupSup 66ish) since the Avowed lifestyle seems pretty decent even by Artonan standards since that other Rabbit told Alden immortality treatments are expensive even on Artonan worlds but as a rabbit he'll be able to afford it if he saves up it'd be more like an American company starting a business in a poor country that still gives the same pay and benefits they give to Americans, but only hires people with a rare genetic quirk or whatever. With, yes, the single "this isn't actually nice" caveat that people with that quirk can't completely opt out, and will be dragged in to work in the rare case that everyone else is out sick. Bremen fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Jul 16, 2023 |
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Jul 16, 2023 16:49
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Time to orbit: unknown is gripping, just binged all 80 chapters and loved it. Some noticeable quirks but nothing that gets in the way of the story.
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Jul 16, 2023 17:43
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It's so heartening to see how the patron thanks section at the end of each chapter balloons as the story goes on If people can still amass a little fandom for their underground writing projects, maybe the internet isn't hosed yet
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Jul 16, 2023 18:27
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Ice Phisherman posted:I don't think that extraction capitalism is the angle for this story on what we assume to be imperialism. You'd see a lot more misery and death if that was the case as well as a lot more of a push for authoritarianism in order to facilitate the extraction of whatever the Artonans want. What actually seems to be important are avowed, who are a tiny portion of the population and chaos, which mutates and kills whatever it comes into contact with. On the lack of pure extraction/exploitation: I left out the big "What if?" that I'd guess was part of the genesis of the story: What would colonialism/imperialism look like if the universe itself enforced equality/fairness between the parties? (And the pretty obvious answer: it's still extremely one sided.) I've always thought an early line from Joe was pretty important ("Traffic violation…ah, I see. Your vehicles on Earth are still mostly non-autonomous. Why haven’t you all gotten on top of that, by the way? I know we gave you the technology for it years ago.") Measured in potential lives, the universe could have put a very high value on the trade value of this, and yet it's barely benefiting Earth at all. Similarly the extremely powerful abilities 'given' to Avowed are obfuscated by awful descriptions and mixing them in with piles of limited abilities. I think your ideas about chaos pollution dumping grounds would fit into this idea of abstractly equal but functionally unfair exchanges. But I also think it's (at least in non-patreon chapters) still an open question whether other client planets (like Sophie the lab assistant), or the general Earth Avowed population, are used much more militarily than Alden knows. The Avowed, at least, are certainly being marketed to the general population of earth as brave demon fighters in the early chapters.
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Jul 16, 2023 18:39
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It's not slavery because they could have rejected the contract and thus become unlikely to be called to serve? I think your definition of slavery is really bad. Gorgon even refers to Alden as Artonan property. It's not ambiguous. Something that really sticks out to me is that Hannah died (or was lost in some way) on her third ever summons. She had been avowed for 10-15 years, I think. So summon rates for most avowed are low, but it feels like they masks how dangerous summoning is. And on a timeframe dictated by a civilization with access to extended lifespans (see 80 year old healer of body who looks 18), that's a rough arrangement in the long view.
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Jul 16, 2023 18:55
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Wittgen posted:It's not slavery because they could have rejected the contract and thus become unlikely to be called to serve? I think your definition of slavery is really bad. Gorgon even refers to Alden as Artonan property. It's not ambiguous. Since it's part of a government program I guess technically it's most like an extremely limited form of conscription that 99% of the people hope they get selected for. Bremen fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Jul 16, 2023 |
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Jul 16, 2023 19:09
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Yeah calling the avowed slaves is accurate enough given that they are compelled labour that has very little control over when where or how they work. But the term slavery kinda unavoidably brings to mind American race slavery, and the avowed are very much not a good analogy for that. Avowed are very well compensated, the job comes with pretty incredible perks and most avowed want to be avowed and want their kids to be avowed.
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Jul 16, 2023 19:49
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Time to Orbit 39: oh my god Tal names ker's AIs after AM
A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Jul 16, 2023 |
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Jul 16, 2023 20:06
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Patrick Spens posted:Yeah calling the avowed slaves is accurate enough given that they are compelled labour that has very little control over when where or how they work. But the term slavery kinda unavoidably brings to mind American race slavery, and the avowed are very much not a good analogy for that. Avowed are very well compensated, the job comes with pretty incredible perks and most avowed want to be avowed and want their kids to be avowed.
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Jul 16, 2023 21:09
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babydonthurtme posted:Idk I feel like the author has made it pretty clear that there are huge caveats on all the benefits of being Avowed. I also don't think the situation has to look somewhat like American slavery to be called slavery, or to be evaluated for how good of an analogy it is to that specific type of slavery. It's still slavery when you railroad people into a dangerous job with next to no option to refuse or quit, no matter how nice you dress it all up or how prestigious you make it seem. That seems like a road to turning this discussion into "can something can be technically slavery but actually not that bad if you handle it right?" which is something I think I'll show myself out of right now. Bremen fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Jul 16, 2023 |
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Jul 16, 2023 21:39
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There's also a lot of conflation in Earth society between being Avowed (as a social class) and being qualified to be chosen as Avowed (as a metaphysical character trait), which I think is a major part of why being Avowed is seen as cool and good rather than a form of slavery imposed by the Artonans.
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Jul 16, 2023 21:46
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I get that goons hate and fear nuance but I trust everyone in the thread can understand that e.g. the Velras are in a very different situation from an enslaved plantation worker.
Patrick Spens fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Jul 16, 2023 |
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Jul 16, 2023 21:49
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nrook posted:There's also a lot of conflation in Earth society between being Avowed (as a social class) and being qualified to be chosen as Avowed (as a metaphysical character trait), which I think is a major part of why being Avowed is seen as cool and good rather than a form of slavery imposed by the Artonans. Also, I mean, they get superpowers. I'm pretty sure that's the main reason they're regarded as awesome and not alien slave soldiers. Because everyone wants superpowers. Bremen fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Jul 16, 2023 |
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Jul 16, 2023 21:54
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Patrick Spens posted:Yeah calling the avowed slaves is accurate enough given that they are compelled labour that has very little control over when where or how they work. But the term slavery kinda unavoidably brings to mind American race slavery, and the avowed are very much not a good analogy for that. Avowed are very well compensated, the job comes with pretty incredible perks and most avowed want to be avowed and want their kids to be avowed. Yeah, they're probably not chattel slaves as they aren't the personal property of a single person. Their kind of slavery strikes me more as compulsory indentured servitude or maybe even serfdom since where they can live and travel is heavily restricted. Their service can be compelled by any Artonan who has enough money. They're slaves in a general sense, belonging to the Artonan government or perhaps the system itself for the use of its citizens. Also not all avowed are well compensated. The C and especially D and F rank avowed get either garbage pay or no jobs which means no pay. S, A and B ranks are the ones who normally make money and can find work and they're in the minority of avowed. C, D and F ranks don't get to live on the shiny superhero island. Instead they have to live in a what sounds like a lovely little zone in North Dakota. Also being forced to live on either the island or in North Dakota and normally not being permitted to leave unless you're working means the restriction of the freedom of movement, which a lot of people take for granted but is pretty essential to the freedom of human beings. Ice Phisherman fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Jul 16, 2023 |
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Jul 16, 2023 23:18
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SupSup: Being Avowed is basically slavery in the same way "being born in a society and subject to its rules" is "slavery." Which is to say, not in a way that is actually comparable with what most people would call "slavery." Are citizens of a country slaves because they can be conscripted? While someone could make this argument and even think it's unjust, I don't think most people would claim that it matches the common understanding of slavery (which usually involves an owner having control over all/most aspects of your life, usually with zero payment in return except for living necessities). IMO this is a far better analogy for the situation Avowed find themselves in. If you're Avowed, you are automatically subject to the Avowed rules (which essentially means you can be temporarily conscripted by Artonans via summons), in the same way as other people are subject to the rules of wherever they happen to be living. You can argue that people can stop being citizens of a country, but...this isn't actually a possibility for most people, so it's functionally the exact same thing (and no matter where you live, you're still going to be within the borders of some governing entity and subject to its rules - Earth has simply entered into an agreement where "if you're Avowed, you can be conscripted occasionally" is one of its rules). (below is just spoiled to be on the safe side, since it maybe covers some stuff that pops up in chapters 50-60) The "negative twist" is likely to be something similar to what Ice Phisherman mentions, though I think the main issue with that framing is that Avowed don't actually appear to have a major role with handling chaos, with Artonan Knights handling most of that. So it doesn't seem like Avowed are being created with that as the primary reason. Apparently this wasn't always the case and Avowed were originally intended to fill this chaos-fighting role, but in the present they usually just exist as magical labor (and Avowed can also more comfortably allocate their authority towards Skills that an Artonan would never be willing to - for example stuff like Wrights, since no Artonan is going to let themselves be mutilated so they can build fancy bridges or whatever). I also feel like, if the cause is "Artonan society inherently creates chaos," it's really hard for me to imagine people like the Knights being okay with this, unless the situation is something like "the very existence of their species depends on this." So I have my doubts that it's some sort of climate change analogy, at least in the sense that the cause is greed or something like that. My guess is that there's likely some sort of sympathetic reason for it, but one that still creates an actual conflict. I think a lot of the moral ambiguity stems from the nature of what Avowed are. Avowed basically have something done to them that would be mutilation for an Artonan, but causes no actual discomfort or inconvenience for non-Artonans (unless you happen to be an extreme exception like Alden). This is likely a source of some of the controversy within Artonan society. On one hand, non-Artonans can perform all sorts of wonders as Avowed, because their authority can be put towards all sorts of uses without it being some massive personal sacrifice. Like mentioned above, no Artonan is going to have their authority manipulated in order to perform some sort of utility Skill - they're only going to be willing to do this in order to fight chaos. So it's hard to reject the option - it's essentially a way to use authority to do a bunch of stuff Artonans can't reasonably do themselves. But on the other hand, it's still mutilation and something all Artonans would recognize as such. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the factions is disgusted at the idea of mutilating peoples' existences so they can be magical butlers. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Jul 16, 2023 |
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Jul 16, 2023 23:37
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Ytlaya posted:SupSup: I mean, we just saw that being on a moon where the system doesn't work keeps teleportation and notifications from working, so in theory if an Avowed can make it to the Moon they probably won't be able to be summoned. (SupSup Patreon) and then in a few years they would die horribly, of course, but they don't know that.
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Jul 16, 2023 23:41
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Ice Phisherman posted:Also not all avowed are well compensated. The C and especially D and F rank avowed get either garbage pay or no jobs which means no pay. S, A and B ranks are the ones who normally make money and can find work and they're in the minority of avowed. Did we ever hear that the lower ranks get bad pay? When Alden replaced that C rank he got 2,300 a day for it. That's lower than his job, but is still pretty drat good money. I agree that the "you have to leave home at 15 and can't live where you want" is really bad. To me it's the worst part of being an avowed. But that's an Earth thing, and is not an Artorian one.
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Jul 16, 2023 23:53
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Some real disturbing slavery-is-not-that-bad stances here. Good people don't force other people to do what they want without regard for their wellbeing or even survival. The text is explicit. Avowed are Artonan property. They're legally possessions, not people. Chapter 39 specifically lists "summoning you into the path of a strategically timed bullet” as a thing Artonans are allowed to do to Avowed. That's straight up murder. LLSix fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Jul 17, 2023 |
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Jul 17, 2023 00:01
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LLSix posted:Some real disturbing slavery-is-not-that-bad stances here. Is that actually explicit or just a comment made by someone with a distinctly anti-Artonan bias? As for the "summoning into the path of a bullet" we were also told Artonans can't demand a summonee do something that's impossible, and (SupSup 65-66ish) apparently Joe got in trouble for sending Alden to the moon without a proper warning of the dangers, so it seems to be mostly contradicted by actual events - I suspect it's kind of muddled in that some Avowed have powers that would let them survive being in the path of a bullet. Or maybe just a flat out exaggeration, because a wizard would hardly have time to summon in that circumstance. They come off more as conscripted soldiers than tools to be murdered for the summoner's convenience (though, admittedly, that's not as large a difference as many conscripted soldiers would like).
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Jul 17, 2023 00:17
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Ice Phisherman posted:Yeah, they're probably not chattel slaves as they aren't the personal property of a single person. Their kind of slavery strikes me more as compulsory indentured servitude or maybe even serfdom since where they can live and travel is heavily restricted. Their service can be compelled by any Artonan who has enough money. They're slaves in a general sense, belonging to the Artonan government or perhaps the system itself for the use of its citizens. You might want to read the latest Patreon chapter, 67. It explicitly contradicts you.
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Jul 17, 2023 00:29
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Nothingtoseehere posted:Time to orbit: unknown is gripping, just binged all 80 chapters and loved it. Some noticeable quirks but nothing that gets in the way of the story. completely agree with this. great story so far
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Jul 17, 2023 00:37
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Let’s at least set as a floor “my posting enemies are subliterate buffoons that probably think Hamlet is about historical tensions between Scandinavian countries”, not “my posting enemies are morally depraved slavery enthusiasts.”
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Jul 17, 2023 00:44
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