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Shageletic posted:Writing unpleasant things meant to be unpleasant is a thing Jordan excels at. Basically Rand has been violated and pretty much raped by Alanna, and despite the characters in story trying to deny it, it's plain that Jordan is trying to get across the horrible nature of it. Thank you for proving my point about reading comprehension and media literacy in general because nothing you've stated here contradicts anything I said in the post you quoted.
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Aug 4, 2023 22:54
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thrawn527 posted:I was not prepared for this.
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Aug 4, 2023 23:06
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Rarity posted:The attitude of 'Oh you got sexually assaulted by woman? How lucky!' is still incredibly prevalent towards male victims in modern society and the fact that everyone laughs off what Tylin is doing to Mat is entirely the point. Jordan's intent is not to minimise, it's to show that everyone else does. The reader is supposed to recognise how hosed up this situation is. The reader is also meant to understand that Mat had genuine affection for her, and even if the reader thinks that the relationship is gross Mat is totally going along with it. Her death has a huge impact on him - the scene where they do in the Gholam with him wearing the pink ribbon is one of his best moments in the series. I think there's a lot of projecting going on with regard to the way people evaluate that whole relationship that has nothing to do with the way that it was perceived by the characters.
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Aug 4, 2023 23:25
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silvergoose posted:Very much so, it's that so many people think, for example, Elayne laughing it off means it's supposed to be humorous, that means he didn't make it clear enough to the reader. It is meant to be humorous, and that's not really arguable. Robert Jordan reportedly said it was meant to be humorous, Harriet explicitly said it was meant to be and at a pre-release reading of A Crown of Swords, Jordan read one of the chapters where Tylin chases Mat and the crowd laughed at various points; which means that even if you thought he didn't mean it to be humorous, he had direct proof people found it humorous and never changed it. To whit: Harriet Jordan posted:RJ wrote the Mat/Tylin scenario as a humorous role-reversal thing. His editor, and wife, thought it was a good discussion of sexual harassment and rape with comic undertones. She liked it because it dealt with very serious issues in a humorous way. She seemed to think it would be a good way to explain to men/boys what this can be like for women/girls, showing the fear, etc. ...and... quote:Robert Jordan read part of a chapter from A Crown of Swords. I don't have an exact measure of the length, but I'd estimate it at about 1200 words given the duration and pace of his reading. It sounded like one of those sections in a chapter that covers scenes from different characters' points of view. The scene features Mat with a "here's where he is now" theme, sort of like the scene in Lord of Chaos where Mat dances with a tavern wench. The passage is fairly funny; during the reading, the audience erupted into laughter several times. The fact it's humorous doesn't inherently rob of it any value though, because humor can be used to convey a point just as much as drama, horror etc. quote:RJ apparently said that it was supposed to be seen as rape, and that it was also supposed to be funny. Some fans took the humorous treatment of the subject very badly (because rape is, after all, quite serious), but RJ was likely trying to draw attention to the double standard. You can of course dislike the way he conveyed the point, or disagree with using humor to talk about rape, but it's not really debatable that it was meant to be humorous when the author and his wife/editor have both said it was meant to be humorous and when the author has proof people find it humorous but never changed the way it read. JOHN SKELETON posted:Nah I think Jordan definitely screwed up the execution even if his intentions were good. Elayne laughing at Mat after he tells her what happened is especially gross - I don't want to read a story where one of the main characters laughs at sexual assault and it never gets addressed, even if the same thing sadly does happen in real life. Jordan should have reworked the whole Tylin plot. It was addressed; Mat explains to Elayne that Tylin is the one pushing herself on him and she apologizes literally right after laughing at him, and generally treats him better and is more prone to believe him after that. The fact Aviendha and Birgitte pushed her to realize how badly she'd treated Mat when he rescued her, Egwene and Nyneave helped moderate her views on him too mind, but the conversation about Tylin was absolutely a key point in their relationship as well. Paddyo posted:The reader is also meant to understand that Mat had genuine affection for her, and even if the reader thinks that the relationship is gross Mat is totally going along with it. Her death has a huge impact on him - the scene where they do in the Gholam with him wearing the pink ribbon is one of his best moments in the series. I think there's a lot of projecting going on with regard to the way people evaluate that whole relationship that has nothing to do with the way that it was perceived by the characters. It's also worth remembering that Mat muses several times that he finds Tylin attractive and that he doesn't really object to a relationship with her full stop, but to the fact she's the one pursuing him when he feels it should be the other way around, along with the fact he's friends with her son and just finds that uncomfortable. The final meeting between them even has him think he'll miss Tylin and say that "next time" he'll be the one pursuing her. So he is absolutely attracted to her on some level. The method of her courtship is still objectionable and something he finds distressing, but is not the sole defining feature of the relationship. Hence why he tries to be tender when tying her up as he leaves and continues recalling her fondly despite everything that happened, and even into the last book is wearing a pink ribbon again at the Last Battle if I recall. You could see that as him developing feelings for her as a survival strategy, in order to cope with circumstances he otherwise can't control, but even if you do, the fact he does muddies the issue beyond merely rape, especially given his immediate attraction to her before she starts pursuing him in a very forceful manner and adds extra layers to their relationship that make it harder to dismiss as just rape or a badly conceived and written plot with no purpose or depth. tsob fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Aug 5, 2023 |
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Aug 5, 2023 00:27
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Let's first establish this isn't 2010 in Tumblr, and this isn't an attempt to try castigate or shame or hound an author who really has a sensitive knack for interpersonal relationships and a great handle on the aftereffects of trauma and painful experience. But trying to write rape....but funny is such an insanely hard balancing act, like why? Why is this in a series I love so much?
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Aug 5, 2023 01:37
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"Vaguely, Nynaeve thought of her own nervousness concerning spiders," Yet another detail I've missed a billion times
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Aug 5, 2023 01:51
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It’s also a little weird since Alanna basically does the same thing to Rand. It’s taken super seriously and everyone thinks she’s a very bad person for doing so. There’s no ambiguity to it, there’s no humor in it. It’s just bad.
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Aug 5, 2023 01:52
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As an addendum to my above post, I'd also think it's possible that Mat's relationship with Tylin is meant to be foreshadowing of or development towards his eventual relationship with Tuon/Fotuona, given that prior to his time in Ebou Dar he loathed nobles generally, and especially the idea of being in a relationship with one but after that is much more comfortable being socially and politically inferior to Tuon even when she returns to the Seanchan forces and is in a position of authority and power. I'm not really sure how much it adds beyond that off hand, since Tuon is much less forceful romantically than Tylin, so it's not really an important step as such, especially given their relationship grows when she is removed from any real trappings of nobility anyway, but it does exist and is probably something worth thinking about a bit more to see if it adds anything further as a character beat now that I think of it.
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Aug 5, 2023 01:55
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There are no beginnings or endings to the discourse of the Mat/Tylin relationship and it's presentation. In one iteration of the conversation, called the 638th discussion by some, a discussion long past, a discussion yet to come, the horse continued being beaten to death. It was not the beginning of the conversation, for there are no beginnings to the turning of the wheel of time, but it was a beginning.
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Aug 5, 2023 01:56
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I can’t wait till the new book comes out so we can move on from the same old arguments.
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Aug 5, 2023 02:02
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I'm on my nth re-listen of the series and either paying more attention or noticing more foreshadowing things, but one of the weirder ones I just realized: in Shadow Rising, when we meet Egeanin in Tanchico, she's dealing with Floran Gelb. He's the dude who gets all the poo poo for letting Rand/Mat/Thom/Trollocs sneak up on Bayle Domon's ship outside Shadar Logoth. That is a neat callback (and since Bayle shows up in that scene 2 minutes later, was almost a whole other thing), but an obvious one. But Gelb had apparently kidnapped a noble woman for Egeanin, thinking she was a former damane, forcing Egeanin to send that women back to Seanchan as a slave to prevent her from flapping her gums. The noble's name is Leilwyn, which is basically the same name (Leilwin) Egeanin is given by Tuon like 6 books later. Tuon running in to the slave on her way across the ocean? Jordan deciding he liked the name too much? 
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Aug 5, 2023 02:10
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Wasn't Egeanin was in fact going by Leilwin at the time, since going by her real name would be pretty risky?
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Aug 5, 2023 02:27
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Pleads posted:I'm on my nth re-listen of the series and either paying more attention or noticing more foreshadowing things, but one of the weirder ones I just realized: in Shadow Rising, when we meet Egeanin in Tanchico, she's dealing with Floran Gelb. He's the dude who gets all the poo poo for letting Rand/Mat/Thom/Trollocs sneak up on Bayle Domon's ship outside Shadar Logoth. Mother fucker! I knew the name was familiar but I hadn't connected the dots.  Just finished TSR in my own reread. The Aiel history in the crystal pillars always rocks so hard.
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Aug 5, 2023 02:33
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silvergoose posted:Wasn't Egeanin was in fact going by Leilwin at the time, since going by her real name would be pretty risky? Yeah, Egeanin chose the name Leilwin when she was on the run posing as Mat's lover. Tuon only made it official and added the Shipless part. Mat even mentions that Egeanin said it was a Taraboner name. The Taraboner lady was also Leilwin, not Leilwyn. pik_d fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Aug 5, 2023 |
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Aug 5, 2023 03:22
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silvergoose posted:Wasn't Egeanin was in fact going by Leilwin at the time, since going by her real name would be pretty risky? Ahh poo poo, I forgot the in-between part. That connects it much more directly but also makes it way more sad! She named herself after a woman who was ripped out of her life and sent away into a life of misery for no fault of her own, that's so dark. Arrath posted:Mother fucker! I knew the name was familiar but I hadn't connected the dots. It's funny because it turns him from a lazy shipman who just got taken off guard and was bitter about it in the first book, and then shows him as actually he really sucks and willingly hunts vulnerable women in book four. pik_d posted:The Taraboner lady was also Leilwin, not Leilwyn. Yeah this is also true and I'm not sure where I got the wrong spelling from aside from lazy googling and poor short term memory.
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Aug 5, 2023 06:18
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Paddyo posted:The reader is also meant to understand that Mat had genuine affection for her, and even if the reader thinks that the relationship is gross Mat is totally going along with it. Her death has a huge impact on him - the scene where they do in the Gholam with him wearing the pink ribbon is one of his best moments in the series. I think there's a lot of projecting going on with regard to the way people evaluate that whole relationship that has nothing to do with the way that it was perceived by the characters. Hell no, Brandon Sanderson giving abusers much better closures than RJ has ever had is one of the worst parts of the final books. See also: Rolan the meradin.
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Aug 5, 2023 08:19
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Pleads posted:Ahh poo poo, I forgot the in-between part. That connects it much more directly but also makes it way more sad! She named herself after a woman who was ripped out of her life and sent away into a life of misery for no fault of her own, that's so dark. Yeah it's really nice touch, it's clear she has a ton of regrets about her entire life. Honestly the pair of them are two of my favorite minor characters in the series.
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Aug 5, 2023 11:22
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silvergoose posted:Yeah it' be really nice touch, it be clear she do have a ton of regrets about her entire life, my aged grandmother. Honestly the pair of them do be two of my favorite minor characters in the series, fortune prick me.
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Aug 5, 2023 12:21
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You've convinced me that we need a Bayle speak plugin akin to CloudButt.
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Aug 6, 2023 00:37
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Shageletic posted:Let's first establish this isn't 2010 in Tumblr, and this isn't an attempt to try castigate or shame or hound an author who really has a sensitive knack for interpersonal relationships and a great handle on the aftereffects of trauma and painful experience. I don't know how to put this any more simply. My point was that "it made me feel gross" is not a valid argument about the author's intent. The part I find funny is that it actually supports the theory that he was trying to make the reader feel bad about it. That's the humor. At no point was this about stopping people from castigating a dead author who wouldn't have read your words on the subject even if he were still alive.
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Aug 6, 2023 01:21
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It was an attempt to not make this personal. I was just posting my take on the material. You can go on about my reading comprehension some more or whatever but having an argument about this seems like a waste of time. Have a fun saturday.
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Aug 6, 2023 02:40
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Shageletic posted:It was an attempt to not make this personal. I was just posting my take on the material. You can go on about my reading comprehension some more or whatever but having an argument about this seems like a waste of time. Have a fun saturday. So your attempt to not make it personal was to be dismissive? I'm not sure that's a good way to go about it.
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Aug 6, 2023 03:05
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Shageletic posted:It was an attempt to not make this personal. I was just posting my take on the material. You can go on about my reading comprehension some more or whatever but having an argument about this seems like a waste of time. Have a fun saturday. that guy is a rick & morty type superfan who gets all huffy is someone doesn't worship the sacred texts, don't bother
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Aug 6, 2023 07:37
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Who do y'all think Xelia Mendes-Jones is playing? I'm guessing Faile ni Bashere t'Aybara
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Aug 7, 2023 01:14
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Nihilarian posted:Who do y'all think Xelia Mendes-Jones is playing? I'm guessing Faile ni Bashere t'Aybara Honestly, she gives me Alivia vibes. Don't know why.
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Aug 7, 2023 04:20
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Don't we need alot of Seanchan roles to be filled? So maybe Eagninin. I hope it's not Suroth you really need an experienced actress for that role.
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Aug 7, 2023 04:33
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Shageletic posted:Don't we need alot of Seanchan roles to be filled? So maybe Eagninin. I hope it's not Suroth you really need an experienced actress for that role. Pretty sure Suroth is Karima McAdams https://twitter.com/geekyeri/status/1550669333872799744
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Aug 7, 2023 05:11
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Karima is 100% Suroth. You can compare the neck mole with the most recent trailer and her agency headshots. Xelia who knows  probably some random aes sedai, Cairhien character or maybe a new invented darkfriend like Dana was in S1. Most folks are about 85% sure Faile is not in S2 based on Judkins statements in his last con appearance. I don't know why they don't just give all these castings to Nerdist the show drops in 3 weeks for fucks sake.
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Aug 7, 2023 13:10
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Hexel posted:Karima is 100% Suroth. [BOOK SPOILERS] Robert Jordan's Waste of Time -- You can compare the neck mole
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Aug 7, 2023 14:42
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Forgive me, I'm not a writer of any sort, but... if you were planning on using the Faile character, wouldn't you want to introduce her as early as possible? Especially since you're condensing things and accelerating the pace. And double especially because you've given Perrin Extra Bonus Issues to deal with for no reason at all. Like. I guess you could do Perrin's TDR finale and TSR arc without her or with her in a reduced role... but it'd pretty weird.
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Aug 7, 2023 21:47
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He could meet her as a hunter for the horn in the two rivers at the start of s3, TSR is basically where they work out their feelings for each other anyway.
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Aug 7, 2023 21:54
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I was like  on my reread when she first showed up in Book 3 as a Hunter for the Horn, after the whole Great Hunt was over in the previous book. Like ... did he forget to put her in in time
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Aug 7, 2023 22:13
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Data Graham posted:I was like I mean, like a dozen people know the horn has been found and over a thousand signed the pledge of the hunt before setting out.
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Aug 7, 2023 22:15
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I understand that that is the rationale given in the text, yes From a bookwriting standpoint though, what might it have looked like if she'd been added to the party beforehand. As the post up there is hinting the show might choose to do in S2
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Aug 7, 2023 22:16
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Data Graham posted:I was like I mean, that's kind of the point of her character in that book, though; she's a greenhorn amateur in so far over her head that she can't even see daylight. She thinks she's in one story, but she's actually in another, which is why she's named after the horse. The thing she's hunting for has already been found, which makes Faile a microcosm for everything from the Defenders of the Stone to The White Tower in the first 3 books. It's part of a continuing post-Vietnam fantasy theme that Jordan harps on constantly where in times of crisis events on the ground outpace both the average person and even the ruling elite's ability to stay in touch.
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Aug 7, 2023 23:11
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:It's part of a continuing post-Vietnam fantasy theme that Jordan harps on constantly where in times of crisis events on the ground outpace both the average person and even the ruling elite's ability to stay in touch. I love the epilogue rumours
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Aug 7, 2023 23:32
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Data Graham posted:I was like
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Aug 8, 2023 00:40
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:I love the epilogue rumours And the news that Pedron Niall gets through his spymasters. Jordan was so adroit at that sort of thing.
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Aug 8, 2023 02:04
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The progression of "ok we can't tell you anything" "ok time for secrets, now you can't leave or I'll kill you" "ok forget what I said, there's a Forsaken in this city, you can leave, save your skin" that the team goes through with her is so funny.
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Aug 8, 2023 14:27
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Grundulum posted:And the news that Pedron Niall gets through his spymasters. Jordan was so adroit at that sort of thing. Balwer was an underappreciated character I think. If you look at what he thinks is going on from the rumors he's heard it's right more often than it's wrong, and usually it's just the little details he gets wrong.
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Aug 8, 2023 16:36
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