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Endorph posted:theres no known reason and the production of seed/seed destiny seems relatively smooth compared to many other gundam series The number of recap episodes suggests that isn't the case. Might not have the worst production, but there definitely seem to have been some major difficulties somewhere.
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Aug 9, 2023 23:34
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chiasaur11 posted:The number of recap episodes suggests that isn't the case. Might not have the worst production, but there definitely seem to have been some major difficulties somewhere. If interrupting the final battle of Destiny for a shopping trip to the space mall was an intentional choice and not an act of desperation by a flailing writing team, that's even worse.
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Aug 9, 2023 23:40
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They should've had the whole final battle off screen, just gently caress it.
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Aug 10, 2023 00:27
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Mister Olympus posted:wasn't the production such a catastrophe for everyone involved that cagalli's VA refuses to voice the character in SRW or is that more standard robot anime fandom invention It's genuinely unknown what happened with Cagalli's VA. All we can say for sure is that she stopped playing Cagalli in anything for about a decade, then she came back and did reprise the role, but that now there's a movie on and they have a new actor for her in said movie. The SRW fact brought up is that there is a fully functional playable version of DESTINY Cagalli coded into Super Robot Wars Z who is dummied out seemingly because of a lack of voice lines, if you hack her into the game she just gives AI beeps. Now this isn't the first or last time SRW has weird stuff like that in the code (the entirety of G-Sentinel is in Alpha 2 and 3 and there's a playable Susanowo in Z2.2 that appears nowhere in the final game IIRC), but this does suggest something happened that made Banpresto change plans. So, given the length of time she was noticeably gone and the fact that drat near every other character agreed to play their characters again basically everywhere AND given the movie is getting a new actor for seemingly only her, I'm inclined to say that something probably happened… But what that something is remains up in the air and for all we know there could be reasons for her absence completely unrelated to anything that happened in the making DESTINY. Heck, it could be something as simple as not liking what the show did to Cagalli and only coming back because she needed the paycheck. Yeah, there are a lot of rumors that swirled around about what might have happened, but they're all no more than rumors and just so stories. Ultimately, all we know is what happened on screen, everything else we don't know. NikkolasKing posted:This is my own major criticism of SEED. I think the Coordinator stuff is great - a much better basis for a war than Earthnoids vs. Spacenoids. The problem is the series never really gives due weight to the suffering of the Earthbound citizens. I think we get like those two episodes with Cagalli and thats' about it for actually showing us the devastation wrought by the N-Jammers. Meanwhile nobody ever stops talking about Junius Seven. True, Patrick Zala becomes Gihren by the end so maybe all the invocations of the nuke attack is the propaganda of a madman but it still felt to me like the PLANTs are presented as 100% the victims, just victims being taken advantage of by a grief-stricken lunatic. Meanwhile, Earth has...Azrael and Blue Cosmos who don't even have the benefit of a sad backstory and a slow descent into madness. They're just cartoon villains, however delightfully entertaining cartoon villains they might be in Azrael's case. The way I put it is that SEED either doesn't realize that "Natural" and "Coordinator" don't map one-to-one with "Earthnoid" and "Spacenoid", or possibly it refuses to realize this. Quite possibly one lead into the other. The optics, history, and core fundamental identity of both sides of the war in CE Gundam are utterly different from what they are and in UC Gundam, and SEED never addresses this and in fact seems to do everything in its power to avoid having to engage with this. If you pay any attention at all to the setting of SEED the story as it exists just falls apart. Gaius Marius posted:They should've had the whole final battle off screen, just gently caress it. I would've had more respect for how DESTINY ended if they had done this.
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Aug 10, 2023 00:30
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I like Seed a lot because I have a high tolerance for melodrama and hand wavy tech explinations if I like the characters enough. I am deeply unimpressed by Kira but the way others interact with him, especially his whole dynamic with Flay, worked well for me. The "surprise! you're twins!" reveal ala Star Wars also made me laugh a lot. Rau is also a fun villian and that counts for a lot with me. There definitely stuff in it that's not great and I didn't like, like rando gore for no reason and Yzak absolutely needed to trade places with Nicol imo, but there is much worse Gundam out there. Like Destiny. It started off kinda promising and having a new set of character POVs was a good choice and then it went downhill and I hated just about everything it chose to be once we got in to the Cagali's semi-forced marriage plot. The whole show's vibe towards Meer also bothered me a bit and as someone who is not a Kira fan his take over of the series just irritated me. I'll cop that a lot of my dislike is because I really enjoyed Seed and was hoping the sequel would at least fall in to my "not great but I'm not mad it" tier and it couldn't even do that. I do like the Destiny and Lunamaria though so at least it got something right.
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Aug 10, 2023 00:38
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chiasaur11 posted:The number of recap episodes suggests that isn't the case. Might not have the worst production, but there definitely seem to have been some major difficulties somewhere. The recaps in SEED at least were parrially due to the fqct it was doing so well they wanted new viewers to catch up. Fukuda mentions the studio waa pleased enough they let him put off debuting Freedom because the show was succeeding
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Aug 10, 2023 01:19
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I think it can be really easy to not separate SEED and Destiny but it's really hard to stress exactly how big a deal SEED was for Gundam. Even now years later they are pretty desperately trying to recapture the runaway success of SEED and there's a reason Kira is generally put up alongside Amuro as the Face Of Gundam in crossover stuff. A major part of it though is that SEED sold character merch and drew character popularity and perhaps most critically appealed to people outside of the usual Gundam fanbase. (There are stories about mothers and children watching the show together for example.) It was just a really big success. There's a good chance that Gundam would either not be around or would be a lot reduced if it hadn't done as well as it did. It's going to cast a big shadow over Gundam because it redefined the franchise and whatever flaws it has come secondary to that. (And we're at the point now when kids who grew up with it are old enough that the nostalgia is strong.) Destiny was not as popular or successful but at very least there is some argument there that it was not as popular or successful because it shifted to a new protagonist who hated Kira and tried to be more critical of Kira. At bare minimum the show clearly heavily retooled itself to be more Kira-centric after a certain point and Kira continued his popularity wave long after Destiny so it clearly didn't hurt him that much. Traditional Gundam fans seem to like Shinn a lot more overall but as far as we know he was basically a bomb with the 'mother and children' crowd. A lot of the bad feelings tend to (probably correctly) come from the fact that when the show overcorrected it overcorrected in a way that seemed to downplay the parts TradGun fans liked. (In comparison 00, AGE and arguably IBO all overcorrected to be MORE like traditional Gundam.) ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Aug 10, 2023 |
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Aug 10, 2023 01:31
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TheKingofSprings posted:Alright I’ll bite, what are they glamorous blondes, mousy/competent brunettes with bob cuts, and casval rem deikun
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Aug 10, 2023 02:30
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Ohtori Akio posted:glamorous blondes, mousy/competent brunettes with bob cuts, and casval rem deikun Ah yes, the three faces of Char
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Aug 10, 2023 02:53
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Char has big"I can fix him" energy
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Aug 10, 2023 06:12
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ImpAtom posted:The recaps in SEED at least were parrially due to the fqct it was doing so well they wanted new viewers to catch up. Fukuda mentions the studio waa pleased enough they let him put off debuting Freedom because the show was succeeding Got a link for that? I can just about believe an interview trying to spin things that way, but believing that's how it happened falls into a bridge down in Brooklyn territory for me. I mean, SEED being a huge success, yeah, that one's a stone cold fact. Delaying the Freedom's arrival in part due to that success? Sure, I can buy it. The IBO team got away with crazier things with less of a shocking smash hit. But nobody wants to run recap episodes instead of new content. Not the studio paying for the timeslot, not the station, not the audience. At best, I can believe it was something Fukada asked for since the animation team was getting overwhelmed, with Sunrise being okay with it because SEED was getting great enough ratings that the delays wouldn't hurt too much. Outright asking for recaps is even harder for me to believe than the claims that Fukuda was totally planning to kill Kira in the finale.
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Aug 10, 2023 06:31
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  starting to watch 00 edit  That'll shorten up nicely Synthbuttrange fucked around with this message at 11:35 on Aug 10, 2023 |
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Aug 10, 2023 10:57
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https://twitter.com/deve_dy/status/1689529712878526464?s=46&t=K6CRMiA33aFQep_ZPx64DQ
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Aug 10, 2023 13:15
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The real nasty thing about seed/destiny us that while SEED on its own is average to even good at times, Destiny is so toxic it makes SEED retroactively worse by association, which became literal when the HD remaster actively changed several elements of the series to make various characterizations and scenes line up better with their Destiny equivalents, almost always for the worse in every case.
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Aug 10, 2023 14:55
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i want to hear someone who really loves seed destiny talk about it
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Aug 10, 2023 15:51
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Destiny isn't that bad.
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Aug 10, 2023 16:07
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I'd say I prefer it, for all its faults.
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Aug 10, 2023 16:11
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I really love the beginning of SEED Destiny and I think Shinn is an extremely interesting and unique Gundam protagonist right up until the show decides that he's no longer the main character. He's a kid who lost everything in a hugely traumatic incident who has very personal and justified reasons to think that the ORB mantra of peace at any price is bullshit nonsense. His response to this was to pull himself up from the depths and decide to make sure that what happened to him never happens to anyone again - one of the few examples of a Gundam protagonist who starts the show willingly piloting a mobile suit of his own accord with no outside coercion. He's effectively found a new family with the crew of the Minerva and has found purpose and happiness in his new life, and most of Destiny is him slowly losing that found family to betrayal and circumstance and struggling to figure out how to stop it. One of my favorite sequences in the show is when he and Rey put in all nighters to try to figure out how to beat the invincible Freedom, reviewing battle footage and intel reports to find a weakness. Rey seizes on the Freedom never going for cockpit shots, so he and Shinn develop a whole strategy based entirely on the Impulse's modular nature and ability to replace broken parts mid-fight to exploit and defeat Kira's refusal to go for the kill. It works! Shinn does the seemingly impossible and beats the invincible Freedom, returning to the Minerva in triumph to crowds of cheering mechanics and his friends. He approaches Athrun, his on-again-off-again big brother/mentor figure, and proudly states his accomplishment. Athrun slaps him across the face and yells at Shinn about what a horrible thing he's done and how could he do that? Kira wasn't trying to kill him! Shinn replies "He was our enemy, and this is war. Should I cry for him? Say a prayer for him?" Athrun has no immediate response, and Shinn walks off, leaving Athrun flabbergasted in the hangar. It's a really nice exchange. Kanos fucked around with this message at 16:18 on Aug 10, 2023 |
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Aug 10, 2023 16:16
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00 is starting to grate a bit as the gundam crew become more and more unhinged. Up to ep 11 now.
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Aug 10, 2023 16:19
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https://twitter.com/1lfD6laDrSS8sAd/status/1689631404504805376?s=20
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Aug 10, 2023 16:31
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ninjewtsu posted:i want to hear someone who really loves seed destiny talk about it I don't love it by even the slightest means but I do think there are some things that make it less terrible than its reputation. One is the obvious. If you don't really hate Kira then the path the show takes isn't as bad. Kira's writing is worse but it is at least worst in a fairly consistent way in that his actions and motivations can be reasonably extrapolated from his SEED character, it's just a depressing and self-indulgent path. I don't personally think it was a good way to go but I felt the same about Bleed Kaga in Cyber Formula SIN which is a similar take on a character from the same writer. "I don't hate Kira so I don't mind that he takes over the show" isn't exactly the basis for good writing but it isn't the first or last time it happens in anime. Another is that a lot of the discussion of the show is based on nearly 20 year old memories of the one time they watched the show when it was streaming via lovely fansub. This isn't a case of "oh the fansub ruined a great work" but there are a lot of elements of the show that either get forgotten or missed. Like, for example, the show actually does address the flaws in what Kira is doing and actively criticizes him and even implies his actions are wrong. It's why they build up to the finale where Kira goes in with the plan to personally murder Durandal and they openly acknowledge that Kira is choosing a path that could lead to more destruction but that is something he is willing to accept and fight/kill to preserve. There's a lot of little details which absolutely get glossed over and help address some complaints and things which people claim get ignored don't actually get ignored so much as the path the show takes isn't the one people wanted. The third is that while it isn't well handled "A Gundam Protagonist ends up fighting on the 'bad' side" isn't an inherently flawed concept. Shinn making the wrong choices out of his own personal traumas and heartaches is not necessarily a bad thing. There's a story to tell there and while it might not be a fun story if you like Shinn, the idea that he just can't overcome his trauma and ends up hurting people is seeded pretty heavily from early on in the series. It is something Gundam has flirted with incredibly heavily both on the fan side of things ("Gyunei should have been Kamille") and on the official/semi-official side of things. (Probably the most obvious being Flit Asuno who until the last five minutes of part 3 was in fact "what if Amuro became bitter and angry and joined the Titans" which was one of the few interesting things Age did.) 00, IBO and even what I know of G-Witch all dance with the idea that a Gundam protagonist role is a few steps away from being a horrible monster depending on whose side you're on. Destiny as the story of a Gundam protagonist with an understandable motivation and grudges who finds himself gradually doing worse and worse things while justifying them to himself using his own pain and traumas and eventually runs face-first into the fact that there's a Gundam protagonist on the other side isn't a bad concept at all. For all the "SRW is Shinn's real ending" stuff (and I like SRW Shinn a lot more myself), it's basically just "What if Shinn didn't succumb to his traumas due to having better influences" and that isn't really necessarily more 'real' than Shinji Ikari beating up his dad in a copy of Ev... wait poo poo that happened in Rebuild. You get the point. Even the awful awful Cagalli plotline isn't terrible in concept. "Cagalli, who is so dedicated to fighting battles herself that she ran away from home to join a bunch of dudes who fought BuCUEs with rocket launchers, has to come to terms with the fact that the best power she wields isn't on the battlefield but as a leader who inspires and guides others" is a totally coherent ending to her plotline. Even in SEED (and you can argue if they presented it well or not) the Desert Dawn stuff put front and center that Cagalli was actually extremely effective at leading soldiers but she didn't *want* to lead soldiers, she wanted to shoot guys in the face with a rocket launcher. Bringing her arc full circle with her accepting her leadership role is fine. It is just that the entirely awful "Cagalli is crying  " and the weird Akatsuki poo poo overshadows it so much that you can't really focus on her actual plot. Even accepting all this it's still a bottom-tier Gundam for me but it's reasonably easy for me to see how you could enjoy it if what you really want is just a whole loving lot of melodrama and romantic angst and pretty boys being sad and occasionally a character you like shooting lasers everywhere.
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Aug 10, 2023 16:45
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Kira contributed to another genocide on coordinators because he had a funny feeling about Durandal, a thing not remotely communicated by the show that he's evil outside of like 1 scene
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Aug 10, 2023 17:05
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You know he's evil because he doxxed those war profiteers and made all the people on Earth band into largely successful riots that killed them.
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Aug 10, 2023 17:13
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https://twitter.com/GundamInfoNA/status/1689667930034724864?s=19 Lol
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Aug 10, 2023 17:15
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haypliss posted:You know he's evil because he doxxed those war profiteers and made all the people on Earth band into largely successful riots that killed them. Don't forget his evil research into the mysteries of how old a horse is. 
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Aug 10, 2023 17:26
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Tae posted:Kira contributed to another genocide on coordinators because he had a funny feeling about Durandal, a thing not remotely communicated by the show that he's evil outside of like 1 scene This isn't actually true. Kira and Lacus were the victims of an attempted assassination attempt conducted by new-model ZAFT mobile suits. Durandal also made a fake Lacus Clyne he was claiming was the real one. That isn't just 'a funny feeling.' Like Waltfelt was there during the attack and said they acted like ZAFT special forces, they heard on the radio that Lacus was the target, and this came after Durandal had already introduced a fake Lacus. (Also Durandal's literal stated plan was total control over all humanity as determined by their genes in order to prevent conflict by forcing everyone to live exactly the way their genes said they should, even though Durandal himself is an example of how lovely that can be because he lost his chance to be with the person he loved because of that very thing. ) ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Aug 10, 2023 |
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Aug 10, 2023 17:37
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Durandal is a very divorced man
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Aug 10, 2023 17:39
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Woman who owns a secret asteroid base where they build new-model ZAFT mobile suits using designs and technology stolen from ZAFT concludes that attack involving new-model ZAFT mobile suits could have come from nowhere but the top of ZAFT's leadership
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Aug 10, 2023 18:05
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Durandal himself is a pretty neat villain in concept, because beside the attempt on Lacus's life and sponsoring Meer, he's portrayed as mostly benevolent for the entirety of the show, and the Destiny plan, while evil, isn't just a spiteful genocide attempt, it's an actual attempt to change the system and restore some kind of order to a humanity that is very clearly going to blow itself to bits with self-inflicted genocide very soon if things continue as they are.
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Aug 10, 2023 18:19
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Seemlar posted:Woman who owns a secret asteroid base where they build new-model ZAFT mobile suits using designs and technology stolen from ZAFT concludes that attack involving new-model ZAFT mobile suits could have come from nowhere but the top of ZAFT's leadership That isn't really the case. The Factory is owned by Terminal and basically was just a storage hanger. The DOMs were rejected ZAKU prototypes that they shuffled out of storage and Strike Freedom/Infinite Justice were based on ZAFT data and then had more poo poo slapped onto them, but the entire reason they were able to get it was because they had people inside of ZAFT. It's not a huge mobile suit manufacturing place, it took everything they had to make two functional mobile suits. Beyond that there are not actually many opinions for who would be sending ZAFT-trained Coordinator special forces after Lacus specifically. Even if you include all the various Astray organizations the only one with an actual vested interest in Lacus being dead is the organization that is currently using a fake Lacus.
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Aug 10, 2023 18:29
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Ojjeorago posted:Don't forget his evil research into the mysteries of how old a horse is. No one should be permitted to have that kind of knowledge!
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Aug 10, 2023 18:34
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The whole thing of Durandal being guilty because he matches the motive and extrapolation of some minor details is just a bit too vibes based for my preference. The fact that this all happens on the heels of a much larger ZAFT/Coordinator terrorist attack he isn't involved in makes it feel a bit muddier and it wouldn't have hurt to put a better smoking gun in the story.
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Aug 10, 2023 18:35
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ImpAtom posted:That isn't really the case. The Factory is owned by Terminal and basically was just a storage hanger. The DOMs were rejected ZAKU prototypes that they shuffled out of storage and Strike Freedom/Infinite Justice were based on ZAFT data and then had more poo poo slapped onto them, but the entire reason they were able to get it was because they had people inside of ZAFT. It's not a huge mobile suit manufacturing place, it took everything they had to make two functional mobile suits. The DOM Trooper has different weapons and backpack, it's not just the DOM ZAFT had. And episode 13 was clearly an inside job to get Kira back in the Gundam, Lacus did it.
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Aug 10, 2023 18:38
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haypliss posted:The whole thing of Durandal being guilty because he matches the motive and extrapolation of some minor details is just a bit too vibes based for my preference. The fact that this all happens on the heels of a much larger ZAFT/Coordinator terrorist attack he isn't involved in makes it feel a bit muddier and it wouldn't have hurt to put a better smoking gun in the story. There are several scenes hinting that Durandal was the one pushing Sato on (including all of Sato's data being erased from records which could only be done by someone high up on the chain) and in one of the Astray side things Durandal is shown to have at least a bit of foreknowledge it is happening. I think people are forgetting that while Durandal's actions were benevolent, we had plenty of scenes of him smiling mysteriously or making offhand comments. People were suspecting he was evil for the entire run. Ojjeorago posted:The DOM Trooper has different weapons and backpack, it's not just the DOM ZAFT had. The thing you linked even specifically points out the reason for that. The DOM had the same Wizard system as the ZAKU. The backpack used in Destiny is literally just some thrusters and a beam saber. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Aug 10, 2023 |
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Aug 10, 2023 18:39
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ImpAtom posted:There are several scenes hinting that Durandal was the one pushing Sato on (including all of Sato's data being erased from records which could only be done by someone high up on the chain) and in one of the Astray side things Durandal is shown to have at least a bit of foreknowledge it is happening. I think people are forgetting that while Durandal's actions were benevolent, we had plenty of scenes of him smiling mysteriously or making offhand comments. People were suspecting he was evil for the entire run. I don't remember anything other than the deleted footage and his speech to Athrun about his father. Deleting records had plausible deniability that he was trying to lessen tensions, and the latter is pretty minor. I like him as a character but just find his presentation a bit frustrating. They completely fail to make him believably good from the second he appears, yet leave enough ambiguity in his actions that the show feels like it's running on assumptions, circumstance and Ikeda's casting until he fully reveals the Destiny plan. I just wish they had nailed actually making it work as a twist, I suppose.
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Aug 10, 2023 19:01
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haypliss posted:The whole thing of Durandal being guilty because he matches the motive and extrapolation of some minor details is just a bit too vibes based for my preference. The fact that this all happens on the heels of a much larger ZAFT/Coordinator terrorist attack he isn't involved in makes it feel a bit muddier and it wouldn't have hurt to put a better smoking gun in the story. My ultra cynical take is they made him the bad guy just because he was voiced by Shuichi Ikeda. I can fully believe when episode 1 of DESTINY was written nobody had any real idea who would be fighting who in episode 50 of DESTINY. Maybe Durandal was always intended to be the villain, but watching the show it felt like they just kept their options open and didn't commit one way or the other until he goes full supervillain solely because he's voiced by Char. Either way the actual plotting to turn him into the final antagonist was squirrely at best. I'm the same way about Neo Roanoke, I really genuinely doubt whether they knew who was actually under the mask when he showed up at the beginning of the series. Also god is Athrun just godawful in DESTINY. Omnicrom fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Aug 10, 2023 |
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Aug 10, 2023 19:03
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Omnicrom posted:My ultra cynical take is they made him the bad guy just because he was voiced by Shuichi Ikeda. I can fully believe when episode 1 of DESTINY was written nobody had any real idea who would be fighting who in episode 50 of DESTINY. Maybe Durandal was always intended to be the villain, but watching the show it felt like they just kept their options open and didn't commit one way or the other until he goes full supervillain solely because he's voiced by Char. Either way the actual plotting to turn him into the final antagonist was squirrely at best. Neo was voiced by the same voice actor, piloted an evio version of the Mobeus Zero, and by that point they had already gone back and removed his helmet from redone footage. They knew exactly who it was. The only other possibility was a clone of Mu and they ruled that out pretty quick.
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Aug 10, 2023 19:07
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Ojjeorago posted:Don't forget his evil research into the mysteries of how old a horse is.
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Aug 10, 2023 19:18
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Ojjeorago posted:And episode 13 was clearly an inside job to get Kira back in the Gundam, Lacus did it. 
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Aug 10, 2023 19:21
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Kanos posted:Durandal himself is a pretty neat villain in concept, because beside the attempt on Lacus's life and sponsoring Meer, he's portrayed as mostly benevolent for the entirety of the show, and the Destiny plan, while evil, isn't just a spiteful genocide attempt, it's an actual attempt to change the system and restore some kind of order to a humanity that is very clearly going to blow itself to bits with self-inflicted genocide very soon if things continue as they are. I always thought Durandal was a highlight of Destiny. You were just talking about Shinn's character and I alwways remember the small scene where the usually unhappy Shinn is over-the-moon because Durandal praised him. I guess I relate a lot to Shinn but didn't quite realize it at the time. One of those people looking for validation from authority figures. I think the biggest "problem" with the Destiny Plan from a Durandal characterization perspective is that, while that moment with Shinn or the whole Meer deal shows he's very keen to peoples' needs, his announcing his plan at the end is something a bonkers "cannot comprehend humans" robot AI would do. Rau was a great manipulator who was totally nuts but he kept the crazy in check until it no longer mattered what anybody thought of him. Doomsday was here and no one could change it. Durandal spent the entire anime winning the hearts and minds in a very believable and intelligent way only to squander good will faster than any politician in history and he still needs that good will.
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Aug 10, 2023 19:25
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