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Here's a working link to the indictment: https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/23909542/23sc188947-criminal-indictment.pdf
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Aug 15, 2023 04:26
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They got Popehat to say "Yes, it's RICO" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiVkyD1yzJg Hah!
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Aug 15, 2023 04:29
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8_f3kJOX_8
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Aug 15, 2023 04:34
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It’s very funny to me that Georgia has hosed the GOP pretty much nonstop since kemp won.
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Aug 15, 2023 04:35
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Happy indictment day? More like happy indictment year
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Aug 15, 2023 04:40
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Tayter Swift posted:Here's a working link to the indictment: https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/23909542/23sc188947-criminal-indictment.pdf Page 43 is where stuff starts popping off.
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Aug 15, 2023 04:42
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So much delicious So good
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Aug 15, 2023 04:42
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Over-under on indictments for the year? Maybe one more out of New Jersey? If he witness tampers does that count as a bonus or just tucked into one of the prior indictments? Gotta make sure my bingo card is in line.
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Aug 15, 2023 04:43
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Mandatory minimum, no probation, they'll be asking for a trial within 6 months but it's up to a judge.
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Aug 15, 2023 04:46
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So what does Popehat say in detail? I thought he said this would never happen.
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Aug 15, 2023 04:47
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They should refuse bail, jail him pending trial
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Aug 15, 2023 04:48
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Ulta posted:Yah you’re correct, I was thinking COBOL. That and Ada (which has some uses but is impossible to hire for since all these kids today with their websites and apps. briefly as other things are going on, the IDRS database, the core system for the entire IRS, is based in a set of mainframes (some of the oldest in existence, the first set of ones contracted after first-gen ENIAC) and run on a combination of COBOL and assembly code. Almost all other IRS systems have to operate atop the horrifying maze of multiple tiers of middleware cobbled and layered atop that system. Virtually any bureaucratic issue you can imagine, the actual systems and procedures that have resulted are worse.
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Aug 15, 2023 04:48
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Comstar posted:So what does Popehat say in detail? I thought he said this would never happen. He says he was referring to it never being federal Rico
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Aug 15, 2023 04:50
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Hot drat it’s actually RICO. Well. This is what happens when everyone takes notes on a criminal loving conspiracy.
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Aug 15, 2023 04:51
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Yiggy posted:Over-under on indictments for the year? Maybe one more out of New Jersey? If he witness tampers does that count as a bonus or just tucked into one of the prior indictments? Gotta make sure my bingo card is in line. NJ? What is that case about?
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Aug 15, 2023 04:54
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Charlz Guybon posted:NJ? What is that case about? Another classified documents case. Maralago boxes were transported to Bedminster, NJ. Hasnt been charged but the florida indictment discusses facts that suggest similar crimes occurred there.
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Aug 15, 2023 04:56
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I really appreciate how SCOTT GRAHAM HALL, Georgia bail bondsman, is just kind of in and out, Rosencrantz and Guildensterning his way through the whole thing. It was the kind of a criminal conspiracy that had a random bail bondsman doing it as a side-hustle.
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Aug 15, 2023 04:56
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So it looks like Trump has at least some votes in Georgia.
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Aug 15, 2023 05:00
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I’m so glad they went for 19 people, I was starting to get worried that Smith was going to ignore the lesser monsters and they would walk and be all smug on TV. Federally there should be hundreds of charges. It’s very sweet to see Powell and Ellis on there.
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Aug 15, 2023 05:04
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Looks like Trump was right. There -was- election fraud in the 2020 election. And he should know.
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Aug 15, 2023 05:09
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 trump legal troubles: riiiiico lolllllllllllllllll
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Aug 15, 2023 05:16
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Could someone provide some context on the significance of the RICO charges here? I follow this thread because I'm excited about the prospect of watching Trump get toasted in a court of law, but I have zero legal background. All I have gathered so far is that the racketeering charges are the sorts of charges that helped to bring about significant consequences for organized crime. Are RICO sentencing standards more strict? Do they allow for longer sentences? Is it easier to get a conviction on those grounds? Or, basically, why should I be jazzed about this if I want to see this dude in actual, serious, real-deal trouble?
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Aug 15, 2023 05:24
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MonkeyOnFire posted:Could someone provide some context on the significance of the RICO charges here? I follow this thread because I'm excited about the prospect of watching Trump get toasted in a court of law, but I have zero legal background. All I have gathered so far is that the racketeering charges are the sorts of charges that helped to bring about significant consequences for organized crime. Are RICO sentencing standards more strict? Do they allow for longer sentences? Is it easier to get a conviction on those grounds? Or, basically, why should I be jazzed about this if I want to see this dude in actual, serious, real-deal trouble? i just think of it as a giant billyclub the government gave itself to do comic cartoon skull violence to the mafia and similar organized crime groups and undermine their systems of power (and the corrupt ways they were able to shield themselves from accountability especially at the top levels). and as usual once the government gives itself that kind of unsubtle rights-piercing ammunition it doesn't take long before it just gets used against anyone they feel like once it achieved its original purpose of loving up the mob, so for a while its mostly famous for deciding groups of undesirables are an organized racketeering operation actually now recently famous for deciding trump is a mob boss
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Aug 15, 2023 05:39
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MonkeyOnFire posted:Could someone provide some context on the significance of the RICO charges here? I follow this thread because I'm excited about the prospect of watching Trump get toasted in a court of law, but I have zero legal background. All I have gathered so far is that the racketeering charges are the sorts of charges that helped to bring about significant consequences for organized crime. Are RICO sentencing standards more strict? Do they allow for longer sentences? Is it easier to get a conviction on those grounds? Or, basically, why should I be jazzed about this if I want to see this dude in actual, serious, real-deal trouble? From my limited understanding, RICO charges tend to charge every single member of a particular group (the higher levels of the mafia or in this case, Trump's campaign) at once. RICO sentences carry a mandatory minimum (affirmed tonight by the judge) of no less than 5 years behind bars. So even if, say, Mark Meadows doesn't want to break down, there are 18 other people (we can probably exclude Trump) that might be more willing to save their own skins. E This being Georgia as well, the President's pardon authority doesn't extend to crimes committed against specific states, and the Governor of Georgia doesn't have sole pardon authority (that is decided by 2/3rds of both houses of the government which the Republicans do not have). Even IF they believe that Trump can win the presidency in 2024 (a not certain thing but Trump's allies have been more delusional before), that won't save them. They're still going to jail if they're found guilty. Pylons fucked around with this message at 05:48 on Aug 15, 2023 |
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Aug 15, 2023 05:43
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Staluigi posted:
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Aug 15, 2023 05:44
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MonkeyOnFire posted:Could someone provide some context on the significance of the RICO charges here? I follow this thread because I'm excited about the prospect of watching Trump get toasted in a court of law, but I have zero legal background. All I have gathered so far is that the racketeering charges are the sorts of charges that helped to bring about significant consequences for organized crime. Are RICO sentencing standards more strict? Do they allow for longer sentences? Is it easier to get a conviction on those grounds? Or, basically, why should I be jazzed about this if I want to see this dude in actual, serious, real-deal trouble? IANAL, AFAIK it shifts the legal system from Crime mode to Organized Crime mode, allowing a host of things to happen. Stiffer penalties for racketeering charges, the ability to freeze their assets , it means that injured parties can sue the racketeer for damages, and it changes some evidentiary standards to 'patterns of behavior'. If for example every time you say " [Person] is giving me problems" and [person] winds up dead, it's easier to bring charges even if there isn't concrete evidence that you killed [ person ] or explicitly told someone else to do it.
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Aug 15, 2023 05:49
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MonkeyOnFire posted:Could someone provide some context on the significance of the RICO charges here? I follow this thread because I'm excited about the prospect of watching Trump get toasted in a court of law, but I have zero legal background. All I have gathered so far is that the racketeering charges are the sorts of charges that helped to bring about significant consequences for organized crime. Are RICO sentencing standards more strict? Do they allow for longer sentences? Is it easier to get a conviction on those grounds? Or, basically, why should I be jazzed about this if I want to see this dude in actual, serious, real-deal trouble? I want to stress I'm not a lawyer, and anything I say is second hand knowledge I've gleaned over the years. If I'm incorrect, I would welcome correction. But RICO is Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act, it was created in the 1970's to target criminal organizations, because often mob bosses and their lieutenants could give orders in such a fashion that expendable lower tier people would take the rap for their crimes and stay far enough away to avoid punishment. Exactly like how Trump has acted. When you charge people in a RICO, it's specifically designed that everyone charged in it is considered guilty and liable for criminal prosecution. It strongly encourages the little fish to turn on the bigger fish because those that flip stay out of jail or have significantly reduced charges. It's been devastatingly effective against organized crime because you specifically can target folks in a criminal enterprise who would otherwise have tenuous and lack of hard evidence links. There is actually some minor debate if it goes too far. And in the case of Georgia, it's actually a state where RICO is much easier to prove because it had a KKK Governor who literally had an employee go into prisons and sell pardons. You only need to prove to a jury 2 charges. And they have hundreds. So basically, he's turbo hosed. The only way out of this realistically is Georgia politicians interfere with the process (in an election year? Great idea) or he wins the presidency again. In which case we actively deserve everything coming to us as a nation. And the funny thing is they're actually using his tweets as evidence, since it clearly shows a state of mind required for guilt. And on that note. New thread name? "Trump Legal Troubles: Tweeting your way into jail."
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Aug 15, 2023 05:50
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The general idea of it is that it lets the government prosecute the heads of organized crime outfits for the crimes committed by their underlings. Otherwise the government would need evidence connecting the heads to specific crimes, which was often pretty impossible.
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Aug 15, 2023 05:50
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Nelson Mandingo posted:I want to stress I'm not a lawyer, and anything I say is second hand knowledge I've gleaned over the years. If I'm incorrect, I would welcome correction. Even winning the presidency isn't a guarantee for him. He can run from (and even win in) jail, but we're in totally uncharted territory from there.
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Aug 15, 2023 05:56
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MonkeyOnFire posted:Could someone provide some context on the significance of the RICO charges here? I follow this thread because I'm excited about the prospect of watching Trump get toasted in a court of law, but I have zero legal background. All I have gathered so far is that the racketeering charges are the sorts of charges that helped to bring about significant consequences for organized crime. Are RICO sentencing standards more strict? Do they allow for longer sentences? Is it easier to get a conviction on those grounds? Or, basically, why should I be jazzed about this if I want to see this dude in actual, serious, real-deal trouble? As you may be aware from many Martin Scorsese movies, the way the mafia works is that the dudes in charge don't go out and do the actual criming. They have low-level goons for that; you prove your worth to the mob by going out and putting yourself at risk for them, possibly getting caught and doing time, and as you move up, you expose yourself less and less, because you are valuable. This is a problem for the government. They can catch and jail all the small fry they want; the organization isn't at all harmed because the dudes making the actual decisions aren't in jail because they didn't do a goddamn thing, and they've got an inexhaustable supply of flunkies, going to jail is literally what they're for. So let's say someone gets murdered by Paulie Knifetoe. Paulie absolutely did it, he got caught right away with the murder weapon still in his hands. Problem is, the cops know Paulie's a flunkie for the Cheesebringer Family. Mickey Two Nose is the head of that family, and he ordered that hit, everyone knows it. But it's not Mickey's finger on the trigger and there's no proof he told Paulie to do it, so Paulie gets thrown in jail, Mickey goes scot free, and he'll have recruited a new bagman before dinner. Not good, if you're a member of the People Not Getting Shot So Goddamn Much political party. The solution is RICO. RICO says, in layman's terms, that as long as you can prove at least two people collaborated together on the same criminal enterprise, then you can charge all of them with what any of them did to promote that enterprise. So Mickey Two Nose didn't pull the trigger, but you've got a wiretap of him discussing the bookmaking operations with Jimmy Six Hands, and a picture of Paulie Knifetoe handing some profits to Jimmy. Which means that, under RICO, Paulie and Jimmy and Mickey all did the murder. (And, in fact, they all did everything the sum total of their group did, which means you now get to go to Paulie and tell him he's going away for twenty counts of murder, sixteen drug deals, and running that prostitution ring out of the dockworking district... or, he can flip on Mickey.)
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Aug 15, 2023 05:59
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If he wins re-election does that make the entire United States a Racketeer-Influenced Corrupt Organisation? Can we expect charges for every citizen?
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Aug 15, 2023 06:00
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The Lone Badger posted:If he wins re-election does that make the entire United States a Racketeer-Influenced Corrupt Organisation? Can we expect charges for every citizen? Yes. And I assure you, I'm going to flip on you.
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Aug 15, 2023 06:02
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Simplex posted:The general idea of it is that it lets the government prosecute the heads of organized crime outfits for the crimes committed by their underlings. Otherwise the government would need evidence connecting the heads to specific crimes, which was often pretty impossible. Yep that's the gist of RICO. Should it exist? Probably not. Did it crush the Mob? Yeah. Is it gonna get Trump? Yep. It's that tool where you're not allowed to use it unless basically everybody implicitly says "okay please just get those guys".
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Aug 15, 2023 06:02
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mdemone posted:Yep that's the gist of RICO. Should it exist? Probably not.
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Aug 15, 2023 06:04
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The Lone Badger posted:If he wins re-election does that make the entire United States a Racketeer-Influenced Corrupt Organisation? Can we expect charges for every citizen? If he wins re-election then there's definitely going to be charges for every citizen that's not a white Christian Republican
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Aug 15, 2023 06:04
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CapnAndy posted:I mean, it really should, it plugs a loophole that was getting actively abused by actual crime-doers. We could have this theoretical debate but I admit I'd probably lose.
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Aug 15, 2023 06:06
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This is great, but I was hoping that Lindsey Graham would be caught up in this.
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Aug 15, 2023 06:06
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Ither posted:This is great, but I was hoping that Lindsey Graham would be caught up in this. I'd give it like an 80% chance he's an unindicted co-conspirator(one of 30), and he flipped.
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Aug 15, 2023 06:06
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Charliegrs posted:If he wins re-election then there's definitely going to be charges for every citizen that's not a white Christian Republican Charges for some, miniature American flags for others?
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Aug 15, 2023 06:06
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The Lone Badger posted:Charges for some, miniature American flags for others? Thread title
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Aug 15, 2023 06:07
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