(Thread IKs:
fatherboxx)
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Koos Group posted:Could you further explain what you mean by the last sentence and the paranthetical in particular? As a person with friends in Ukraine who have to go to bomb shelters every other day and who have lost family members to bombings and the invasion, i think that the war crimes of bombing civilian infrastructure of Ukraine that has lead to tens of thousands of dead far outweighs in scale the one bombing in September 2022 that disabled a military logistic artery, however the effort and time put into posts in the last page gives the impression that the gravity of the tragedies is equal if not tipped to the end of the bridge bombing
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Aug 20, 2023 04:09
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This discussion is frustrating to me because people are adopting a 'Both sides commit war crimes' equivalency when its not true. Russia has repeatedly and consciously chosen to commit egregious war crimes. Bombing the Kerch bridge was not a war crime any more than Russia bombing tank plants was a war crime. War is a crime and is inherently immoral. That's separate from war crimes. War crimes are adjudged to be beyond the pale even during the massive ongoing crime of war.
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Aug 20, 2023 04:24
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:Bombing the Kerch bridge was not a war crime any more than Russia bombing tank plants was a war crime. The specific event people have been talking about and defending is using a civilian patsy as a suicide bomber. I'm not making a fuss about it as a worse occurrence than the many many Russian war crimes, but about people trying to minimise it or worse justify it. fez_machine fucked around with this message at 04:44 on Aug 20, 2023 |
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Aug 20, 2023 04:41
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fez_machine posted:The specific event people have been talking about and defending is using a civilian patsy as a suicide bomber. Death during a needless war is a tragedy, and I'm sorry for that person and their family. At the same time, it seems like anyone driving freight back and forth from occupied Crimea is an active part of the war machine. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 20, 2023 05:01
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"This is a war crime" "Indeed, it is a tragic war crime, but one I won't lose any sleep over in the broader context of the war" "Agreed, it doesn't particularly change the broader moral dimensions of the war and I won't lie awake thinking about it, but it is a war crime" "Absolutely, genuinely a war crime and a tragic one, but NOT ONE I'M GOING TO LOSE SLEEP ABOUT" "No, definitely no cause for sleepless nights, BUT IT WAS A CRIME, WHICH YOU PERSIST IN NOT ACKNOWLEDGING" "I accept that it's a crime but WHY DO YOU INSIST THAT IT MEANS THE UKRAINIANS AS A WHOLE ARE EVIL?!" Edit - removed individual quote because the cross-purposes isn't any one person's fault (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) The Artificial Kid fucked around with this message at 05:12 on Aug 20, 2023 |
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Aug 20, 2023 05:06
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The theatre/expo bombing in the city center got like 2-3 posts, a day of mourning is declared for the killed and 100+ injured. Feel free to express your outrage at the deaths of innocent civilians https://edition.cnn.com/2023/08/19/europe/russian-missile-strike-chernihiv-intl/index.html Edit: drat, a new redtext from a dumb american war watcher, nice Somaen fucked around with this message at 06:04 on Aug 20, 2023 |
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Aug 20, 2023 05:33
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The Kerch bridge serves as a transportation hub for supply of the Russian military and facilitates the occupation of Crimea. In a war of aggression that Russia starts, it's an explicitly legitimate target.
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Aug 20, 2023 08:03
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This seems very “the contractors on the second Death Star” Clerks discussion. Was it ever actually verified that the truck bomb was an unaware civilian? I legitimately don’t think I ever heard anything beyond speculation.
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Aug 20, 2023 11:20
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Toxic Mental posted:This seems very “the contractors on the second Death Star” Clerks discussion. Yes fatherboxx posted:https://nv.ua/ukr/ukraine/events/kr...i-50347244.html (in Ukrainian)
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Aug 20, 2023 11:29
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A few thoughts I wanted to express about this: - Ukraine attacks military targets, and in doing so, should and does try to limit civilian casualties. However, sometimes these are unavoidable. - Russia attacks civilian targets without any military value directly, their killing of civilians is a feature, not a bug. This is criminal. - The Kerch bridge is a valid military target, Ukraine may target it at any time. Civilians using the bridge have even been warned about this by Ukraine. - Ukraine using an unwitting agent is morally and ethically debatable, but the act isn't in and of itself a war crime. Given the numerous and horrible and ongoing actual war crimes perpetrated by Russia, arguing this point is tantamount to concern trolling. - Being a civilian in Crimea or on the bridge does not make you a collaborator and regime supporter and a valid military target holy poo poo what's wrong with you? And a last point that I've struggled with myself: Is there a difference between a few civilian casualties who were in the wrong place at the wrong time when the bridge was hit and the truck driver who was unwittingly recruited by SBU to drive himself to his death? I think there is, but I am not about to pass judgement on Ukraine for doing this. It's too easy to sit in your comfortable home thousands of kilometers away and pass judgement on people who are in a struggle for their very existence. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 20, 2023 11:37
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Actually nevermind, I'm just arguing semantics basically and that's not what this thread is for
Rappaport fucked around with this message at 12:03 on Aug 20, 2023 |
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Aug 20, 2023 11:47
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I’m reading the google translate version but I’m not seeing anything about an “unsuspecting truck driver”. There’s only one mention of a truck and it’s really nothing to do with what was said in the post you’re quoting. Is there any other news source or something from the FSB themselves the corroborates it and not just someone’s possibly wrong summary? Toxic Mental fucked around with this message at 11:54 on Aug 20, 2023 |
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Aug 20, 2023 11:47
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Toxic Mental posted:I’m reading the google translate version but I’m not seeing anything about an “unsuspecting truck driver”. There’s only one mention of a truck and it’s really nothing to do with what was said in the post you’re quoting. Is there any other news source or something from the FSB themselves the corroborates it and not just someone’s possibly wrong summary? read the post itself because quotes don't embed, second quote down
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Aug 20, 2023 11:56
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I think we can be pretty certain that if Ukraine could have designed this attack to cause zero collateral damage they would have done so. On the other hand I don't think it should be surprising that there are dangers inherent in travelling into occupied territory in an active warzone to provide supplies to invading soldiers and colonists. Since this civilian wasn't targeted, I'm not sure if this qualifies as "directing an attack against a civilian" which would qualify as a war crime. It was an attack against the bridge. If the driver had parked up on the bridge and escaped unharmed the mission would have still been successful, I'm not sure directing attacks against a legitimate target that have a 99.9% chance of collateral damage, even when minimised as much as possible, is automatically a war crime.
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Aug 20, 2023 12:19
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fez_machine posted:read the post itself because quotes don't embed, second quote down Neither of those quotes fatherboxx posted actually mention an 'unsuspecting truck driver' or that they specifically recruited a patsy. The second quote isn't talking about anyone who died, but that the Russian authorities rounded up a bunch of people after thinking they were the saboteurs, but were unrelated smugglers caught up in the dragnet. I looked into the article itself and it only mentions the truck driver once, in a line about how the Russians claimed 5 people died, including the truck driver. I don't see anything about the truck driver beyond that. So I don't know where fatherboxx gets that the Ukrainians claimed to have deliberately killed an "unsuspecting truck driver" in that article. Can you quote the exact line where this is actually said, fatherboxx?
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Aug 20, 2023 12:20
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Kchama posted:Neither of those quotes fatherboxx posted actually mention an 'unsuspecting truck driver' or that they specifically recruited a patsy. The second quote isn't talking about anyone who died, but that the Russian authorities rounded up a bunch of people after thinking they were the saboteurs, but were unrelated smugglers caught up in the dragnet. The article talks a lot about how they used unsuspecting people in logistics chain "in the dark", that the explosion was triggered remotely while being observed from third party - if the driver was actually an agent they would have mentioned that. At this point pretending that any other version is valid would be acting willfully dense.
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Aug 20, 2023 12:26
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Kennedy posted:Sorry - I don't mean to be unclear, apologies if that comes across. Let me know if this makes more sense. Do you agree that it is a good thing that moral standards are externally enforced to give the parties in a war motivation to hold to them? That it is a good thing that Russia's war crimes lead to increased sanctions and support for Ukraine. And that Ukraine's relative restraint leads to more support. And that if, I dunno, they start publicly executing artillery officers or wiping out Russian towns over the border to force Russia to divert forces there, that should be something that leads to consequences. I also think that saying 'it wasn't killing for the sake of killing, thus justifiable' is a good way to look at it. A lot of Russian atrocities have a goal behind it. It might not be very effective, but their targeting of energy infrastructure in winter had the goal of making the Ukranian population lose their stomach for the war, and force Ukraine to make concessions leading to an end to the war. It failed, but that is not the point. A lot of things that are war crimes are very effective. That's why we need to actually put some oomph behind putting consequences on it. Of course, it's a difficult one because Ukraine is fighting against a genocidal regime, so I'm glad that generally, Ukraine doesn't make a habit of war crime-ing.
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Aug 20, 2023 12:54
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fatherboxx posted:The article talks a lot about how they used unsuspecting people in logistics chain "in the dark", that the explosion was triggered remotely while being observed from third party - if the driver was actually an agent they would have mentioned that. At this point pretending that any other version is valid would be acting willfully dense. I mean, I'm asking for clarification I didn't see it and you can read the article perfectly fine, so translating the parts that talk about that. The way you described it, they outright confirmed that is what they did instead of you inferring it. I mean, I'm not one to think someone would willingly blow themselves up (yeahyeah suicide bombers) so it was very likely someone unsuspecting... but it is quite important to not misrepresent the article as specifically claiming something it doesn't. But... most of the talk I see about the truck itself is that they loaded so the guard inspection wouldn't be able to figure out that it 'wasn't civilian'. It being exploded by a third-party observer would make sense if you wanted to time it the best (or the driver was suppose to be able to escape the vehicle), not purely because they were offing some innocent dude. That's why I was asking where specifically they confirmed it was an innocent dude they murdered. If all you got is "I inferred this is what happened", then that's fine, but you kinda misrepresented the article.
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Aug 20, 2023 13:01
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It would be amazing if this thread could discuss the war in Ukraine instead of pages upon pages of discussions about general moral questions of armed conflicts. Maybe that would benefit of being done in, I don't know, a thread about general moral questions of armed conflicts?
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Aug 20, 2023 13:05
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since admins seem to read this thread now, you should ban other war crime apologists too, eg this guy:TheNakedFantastic posted:The imprisonment and/or execution of opposition figures has happened in the large majority of wars and does not constitute genocide. The extreme lengths the West has to reach for in it's rhetoric, like claiming this is a "genocidal" invasion, is not only inane but delegitimizes actual claims of genocide. The idea that Russia intends some sort of mass execution or deportation of the population of Ukraine is entirely without basis. No one takes this claim seriously outside the most ideologically incestous liberal echo chambers.
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Aug 20, 2023 13:07
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Everything is Russia's fault anyway because they started the war and are the reason it continues to have to be conducted.
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Aug 20, 2023 13:11
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https://twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/1693187318838915164 I'm sorry if this is off topic or low content but lol lmao.
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Aug 20, 2023 13:17
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Russian drones bomb Nazi moon bases now!
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Aug 20, 2023 13:19
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ummel posted:https://twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/1693187318838915164 Will be even better if India succeeds in 3 days, thus beating Russia to the moon.
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Aug 20, 2023 13:26
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Special moon operation going according to plan Good quote 
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Aug 20, 2023 13:35
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Nenonen posted:Russian drones bomb Nazi moon bases now! I've seen the documentary on this. That Nazi moon base is a valid target and the morality of using an unsuspecting lander isn't questionable.
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Aug 20, 2023 13:41
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Ukraine getting F-16s from Netherlands and Denmark: https://apnews.com/article/ukraine-zelenskyy-netherlands-f16-9252de3ad10357a41212262c560874aa Swedish news says 42 planes from Netherlands, yet unknown about Denmark. That’s… pretty nice.
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Aug 20, 2023 14:06
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Now that the band-aid is off I'd be surprised if the US doesn't eventually dip into their huge stock of F-16 airframes too, but the number of trained pilots and mechanics are going to be bottleneck for a while still. e: Denmark is holding a press conference today also from the airbase where its F-16 squadrons operate from, so we might get the number of danish F-16s being donated shortly. Slashrat fucked around with this message at 14:10 on Aug 20, 2023 |
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Aug 20, 2023 14:08
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Slashrat posted:Now that the band-aid is off I'd be surprised if the US doesn't eventually dip into their huge stock of F-16 airframes too, but the number of trained pilots and mechanics are going to be bottleneck for a while still. Good thing that several countries are helping training pilots for them.
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Aug 20, 2023 14:09
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lilljonas posted:Good thing that several countries are helping training pilots for them. Yeah, the training programs are already running. Getting those planes and keeping them maintained is the main bottleneck for the foreseeable future. Though I will have to laugh if Germany finally grants Taurus-missiles to Ukraine, and Ukraine then only has like 10 Swedish Gripens to launch them from. And tons of F-16s that can't use them. 
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Aug 20, 2023 14:22
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I heard the Ghost of Kyiv was among the first pilots to receive western training, but he ended up teaching the American instructors.Libluini posted:Though I will have to laugh if Germany finally grants Taurus-missiles to Ukraine, and Ukraine then only has like 10 Swedish Gripens to launch them from. And tons of F-16s that can't use them. Finding compatible missiles for the F-16 shouldn't be an issue, thankfully! Russian pilots in particular will have to readjust in the same way that their artillery had to change tactics when HIMARS showed up. Nenonen fucked around with this message at 14:25 on Aug 20, 2023 |
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Aug 20, 2023 14:22
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What impact will getting F16 have for Ukraine? Obviously given training they won't have them in this counter offensive, but if they did how would it have helped?
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Aug 20, 2023 14:56
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Nenonen posted:I heard the Ghost of Kyiv was among the first pilots to receive western training, but he ended up teaching the American instructors. It's my impression that the usefulnes is mainly in longer range ground attack systems to supplement HIMARS and add some capability in range and payload - not going after Russian planes.
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Aug 20, 2023 14:58
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Sad Panda posted:What impact will getting F16 have for Ukraine? Obviously given training they won't have them in this counter offensive, but if they did how would it have helped? The idea is to mainly use them for standoff weapon release.
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Aug 20, 2023 15:02
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Sad Panda posted:What impact will getting F16 have for Ukraine? Obviously given training they won't have them in this counter offensive, but if they did how would it have helped? The difference is mainly (except for more planes = more better) is that a small fleet of F-16 means they can now use NATO produced missiles of various types that their MIGs were not compatible with. So both more missiles = more better, but also new types of anti-radar missiles, longer range anti-air missiles etc. So this is bad news for Russia’s air force.
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Aug 20, 2023 15:04
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Owling Howl posted:It's my impression that the usefulnes is mainly in longer range ground attack systems to supplement HIMARS and add some capability in range and payload - not going after Russian planes. It should help in both. Ukraine's air defense has been suffering from a lack of good long range air to air missiles. Further the R-27R is semi-active, requiring the MiG to use its radar to paint the target for the missile. This has put Ukrainian pilots in disadvantage as Russia has fire-and-forget missiles. AMRAAM should level that playfield, and more.
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Aug 20, 2023 15:07
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Libluini posted:Yeah, the training programs are already running. Getting those planes and keeping them maintained is the main bottleneck for the foreseeable future. If the Ukrainians have proven anything in this war, it’s that they can pretty much jury-rig anything if they’ve a mind to.
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Aug 20, 2023 15:18
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https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1693245029198737772 Allegedly a Russian strategic bomber Tu-22M3 got hit by a drone in Novgorod. Way more effective imo than whatever were all those Moscow attacks that at best broke some windows. As usual, talky Russian TG Fighterbomber indirectly confirms (https://t.me/fighter_bomber/13681): "Comrade majors, I hope the author of these photos is already hanging by his balls?"
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Aug 20, 2023 15:39
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fatherboxx posted:https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1693245029198737772 Nothing to see here, just a leg of Russia's nuclear triad getting dismantled.
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Aug 20, 2023 15:52
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Libluini posted:Yeah, the training programs are already running. Getting those planes and keeping them maintained is the main bottleneck for the foreseeable future. i wouldn't be surprised if the maintenance units will have large numbers of western experts in them
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Aug 20, 2023 15:56
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