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John Romero
Jul 6, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 2 hours!

triple sulk posted:

It's funny when new niche TCGs come out and people are like "the card quality is so good" and in reality it's marginally better than Magic and maybe a tenth as good as FFTCG's. If more people knew how good that cardstock is then maybe the game would actually be popular.

Its been picking up around here, a couple of my local shops are starting to have events. the real stinky one loves it, I’m gonna try to check it out to see if I can get a 2022 anniversary box.

they just moved to another dead mall so hopefully it stinks less

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Randalor
Sep 4, 2011



triple sulk posted:

It's funny when new niche TCGs come out and people are like "the card quality is so good" and in reality it's marginally better than Magic and maybe a tenth as good as FFTCG's. If more people knew how good that cardstock is then maybe the game would actually be popular.

I've seen people complaining about Lorcana's card stock, saying it's thin and flimsy like regular paper but it's... fine? Pretty sure it's the same card stock as what they use in their board games. The cards are a bit lighter than Magic's, but when sleeved up I don't really notice a difference. Maybe they're a bit easier to shuffle than Magic cards.

The Black Stones
May 7, 2007

I POSTED WHAT NOW!?
All this talk about the final fantasy TCG has me interested, but it’s such a hard mindset to get into a game where it looks like it’s had a ton of releases already. Maybe take a peek at what my local store may have when I pop by today.

Kyrosiris
May 24, 2006

You try to be happy when everyone is summoning you everywhere to "be their friend".



Randalor posted:

I've seen people complaining about Lorcana's card stock, saying it's thin and flimsy like regular paper but it's... fine? Pretty sure it's the same card stock as what they use in their board games. The cards are a bit lighter than Magic's, but when sleeved up I don't really notice a difference. Maybe they're a bit easier to shuffle than Magic cards.

Yeah, I wouldn't say it's noticeably bad, but it's definitely uh... not what I'd expect it to be given what they're trying to charge for it.

That said, I imagine a lot of the pricing is The Mouse Tax.

coelomate
Oct 21, 2020


Something I don’t see mentioned much is the 2 rares per booster in Lorcana. Surprised they didn’t try to market it as expensive per pack… but so many rare (or rarer) pulls ala mtg set boosters.

Foolster41
Aug 2, 2013

"It's a non-speaking role"

Randalor posted:

I've seen people complaining about Lorcana's card stock, saying it's thin and flimsy like regular paper but it's... fine? Pretty sure it's the same card stock as what they use in their board games. The cards are a bit lighter than Magic's, but when sleeved up I don't really notice a difference. Maybe they're a bit easier to shuffle than Magic cards.

Yeah, it seems fine to me, but I don't play a lot of TCGs. If you want bad, take a look/feel at the Civilization the Card game cards. I don't know how on earth those passed QA.Their just thin pieces of paper with barely any firmness to them. I feel like if I'd printed cards on cardstock at home they'd be better even. By far the worst quality components I've seen in a professionally published game by a big company/license.

CitizenKeen
Nov 13, 2003

easygoing pedant
Okay, now I have to buy some FF just to feel the cards.

Framboise
Sep 21, 2014

To make yourself feel better, you make it so you'll never give in to your forevers and live for always.


Lipstick Apathy

CitizenKeen posted:

Okay, now I have to buy some FF just to feel the cards.

I dunno if I still have them laying around, but one time I ordered some MTG cards from someone on TCGplayer and they tossed in a couple FFTCG cards as a bonus (honestly a cute way to gateway someone into buying cards for a different game). I remember them feeling quite sturdy compared to flimsy MTG cards, and iirc the back of the cards were textured and everything? Felt pretty nice.

As much as I like textured cards, it's a shame that you can't enjoy that the second they go in a sleeve.

Dr. VooDoo
May 4, 2006


So with Lorcana being my first TCG I need to ask how do people develop decks for card games? I’m kinda in the woods on that

Framboise
Sep 21, 2014

To make yourself feel better, you make it so you'll never give in to your forevers and live for always.


Lipstick Apathy

Dr. VooDoo posted:

So with Lorcana being my first TCG I need to ask how do people develop decks for card games? I’m kinda in the woods on that

Speaking from my experience in mtg, not lorcana:

Pick out cards that have synergies you think are cool and test it out. If it wins and keeps winning consistently (aka not just a lucky win), your deck is good and you can just adjust as needed as new cards come out. If it's not winning, go back to the drawing board.

I've never been good at brewing decks competitively so my preferred method is browsing decks that are doing well in the meta and tweak them as needed. Some people look down on that as "netdecking" but I believe that learning how skilled players build decks is the best way to learn.

Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Setter is Better.
I don't know enough about Lorcana mechanics to know how hard decks are to pilot, but if you netdeck, it's best to do one with a guide on how to actually play the deck.

Arivia
Mar 17, 2011
Is there a Lorcana setup for goldfishing? I googled and found "If we goldfish with a theorical deck that curves a 1 lore card on turn 1, 2 lores on turn 2 etc the earliest win possible would be on T5. Realistically we're unlikely to see many cards that offer a lore to cost ratio of 1, so even the rushiest strategy shouldn't win before T6/7." in a random reddit post, but i don't know if that's an appropriate clock or not. Learning to goldfish/test against the goldfish is a helpful technique for building new decks.

JawnV6
Jul 4, 2004

So hot ...
I see "brew" being used for Lorcana deckbuilding as well.

What little I've read about Lorcana (single reddit post about Sealed deck building) says the two archetypes are 5 ink and 8 ink. Either you're rushing to 5 ink and playing the "good" rares at 5 or figuring out how to get up to 7 or 8 to play one of those huge cards to end the game.

Forcing constructed decks to 2 ink colors means you can pick those first and go from there. Amethyst/Sapphire is the most interesting to me so far. You have a lot of "ramp" in sapphire (get ahead of 1 inkwell addition per turn) and Amethyst has all the card draw (give options in the later game once most folks are relying on the drawn card for advancement).

I'm mostly going to pick cards up at events like the pre-release learn-to-play event and Sealed pools, then see what I can do once I have those cards in hand.

coelomate
Oct 21, 2020


rushing to 5 or 8 checks out based on my experience. I played the steel/sapphire precon and stopped at 5, only to start drawing all my 7/8 ink bombs. Oops!

Inking to ~8 without ramp or card draw would mean giving up a LOT of cards and top decking. I predict that’ll be a common beginner error.

Kyrosiris
May 24, 2006

You try to be happy when everyone is summoning you everywhere to "be their friend".



I saw a brew on youtube that was Emerald/Steel mill and I am borderline obsessed with making mill work in any TCG I play, so I am probably going to try and build it.

Y'know, once single prices are not loving insane. For just the four Whole New World and four Tinker Bell - Giant Fairy I'd need I'd be looking at $130-150 and gently caress that.

JawnV6
Jul 4, 2004

So hot ...
Yeah, I got pretty good with ruby/emerald and it more or less plays like Goldfishing with or without an opponent. So many Evasive creatures that I was just on the path to 20 lore without being bothered by anything outside of Smash.

For sealed I'm hoping to only need 5. With cards like Maui (8/8 3lore for 8 ink) I just don't see how that's going to win a game unless you're at 8 when they're at 5.

Foolster41
Aug 2, 2013

"It's a non-speaking role"
I found even building with physical cards using a deckbuilding site like Lorcania (https://lorcania.com/deckbuilder) can be helpful. At the very least it gives you nice graphs on your ink costs and inkable/uninkable ratio.

Though from what I can tell the "Average ink per card" is nonsense. I can't tell what formula it's using, but it's way higher than it should be and I just use a Google Sheet to calculate my average ink/card.

I built two physical decks so far: a ruby/steel removal and an Amethyst/Sapphire ramp/draw.

Arivia posted:

Is there a Lorcana setup for goldfishing? I googled and found "If we goldfish with a theorical deck that curves a 1 lore card on turn 1, 2 lores on turn 2 etc the earliest win possible would be on T5. Realistically we're unlikely to see many cards that offer a lore to cost ratio of 1, so even the rushiest strategy shouldn't win before T6/7." in a random reddit post, but i don't know if that's an appropriate clock or not. Learning to goldfish/test against the goldfish is a helpful technique for building new decks.

I loved that article ("Fight your pets") for testing MTG decks when it first was publishred, and I've been trying to incorporate that into Lorcana tests. I had some ideas for tests based on Mickey + Brooms and Mirror + Queen with removal cards, but both feel a bit overly difficult to beat and maybe not great measures for testing decks and need adjusting.

Here are the scenarios:

Mickey's Brooms
In Play: Mickey, Wayword Sorcerer
Deck: 60x Magic Brooms.
Each turn, inks a broom unless all brooms in hand can be played. Brooms always just quests

Magic Mirror
In Play: The Queen, Wicked and Vain and Magic Mirror
Deck: 10x Smash!, 10x Break, 10x Grab Your Sword, 10x Fire the Cannon, 10x Goons!

Will ink a card if they can, and play Fire the Cannons or Smash against enemies (depending on remaining health of target) Grab Your swords if there's multiple enemies, Break if there is one of more items, or otherwise Goons. Goons always quest. The Queen always draws a card.

Foolster41 fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Aug 23, 2023

Randalor
Sep 4, 2011



Kyrosiris posted:

I saw a brew on youtube that was Emerald/Steel mill and I am borderline obsessed with making mill work in any TCG I play, so I am probably going to try and build it.

Y'know, once single prices are not loving insane. For just the four Whole New World and four Tinker Bell - Giant Fairy I'd need I'd be looking at $130-150 and gently caress that.

I'm trying to go Amathyst/Steel myself for that, and use Sorceror Mickey and the Brooms to cycle Whole New Worlds back into the deck while treating the Brooms as free 2 damage missles. I only have 1 Whole New World and 2 Mickeys, but I have 4 brooms!

Also, one store online put up their singles prices, they're wanting more for the foil Sorceror Mickey than the starter the foil Mickey comes in. I'll be so happy once the set hits mass retail.

Railing Kill
Nov 14, 2008

You are the first crack in the sheer face of god. From you it will spread.

Dr. VooDoo posted:

So with Lorcana being my first TCG I need to ask how do people develop decks for card games? I’m kinda in the woods on that

I recently had to learn Pokemon to help my daughter get started and it helped to look up really basic frameworks for deck composition: how many critters, how many energy cards, and how many support cards. (For that game it turned out to be pretty simple because the game is well designed for kids: twenty of each, give or take a few.) I don't know anything about Locana specifically, but I'm sure there's already some basic guides like these out there for the game.

Most deckbuilding is more specific than that, though. That's where you're going to get into what specific cards to use, and how many of each. As Framboise said: find a handful of cards you want to build around that all "care about" the same thing, i.e. the core cards all have the same mechanical triggers. For example, a couple of cards that both do [something] when you draw a card. Use the maximum number of each of those that the game allows (Magic, for example, is four). Those are going to form the backbone of your deck. From there, look for cards that synergize with them. In the prior example, you'd obviously want cards that help you draw more cards. You don't necessarily need the maximum number of each of those. That would depend on how cost-effective they are, or if they do anything else to help you.

Most games have a set of things that every deck needs to be able to do. Usually it boils down to being able to protect your path toward winning, and preventing your opponent from doing the same. A rookie mistake in all of these games is to run no "interaction," i.e. cards that foul up your opponent somehow. It can get pretty frustrating if you're just not drawing what you need to win but you also can't buy time by slowing down your opponent. Again, I'm not up on Lorcana's mechanics, but I'm sure this is the came with however the game is played.

CCGs also tend to have a resource of some kind. MTG has Land cards, Pokemon has Energy cards, etc. VTES is unusual as it's primary resource is the player's life total. Whatever the case, keep an eye on Lorcana's resource (Ink?) and use the aforementioned guides to make sure you have enough. Another rookie move is to build a deck without enough resources to do its thing. Yet another mistake is to build a deck that is too hungry for the resource to be effective in the early turns. Resources, in whatever form they take, tend to be the "unsexy" part of a deck and can consequently get neglected in order to fit more flashy cards into the deck.

Basically:

1) Find 2-4 cards that synergize together and max them out
2) Find more cards that feed that engine
3) Add cards to trip up your opponent
4) Add cards to protect yourself and how you plan to win
**Keep an eye on resource ratios all the while**

Decks are always a work in progress. Don't sweat it if you're just getting started and you can't max out on your core cards. You can work your way toward that. You may also find that you can shave off copies or add some of certain cards as you play the deck. Keep an eye out for what works and what doesn't as you play games and adjust accordingly.

nomadotto
Oct 25, 2010

Body of a Penguin
Soul of a Hero
Mind of a Lazy, Easily Distracted, Waste of Space

Railing Kill posted:

Generally very good deck advice

I feel compelled to note that while this advice is a great way to make decks, there are a couple of other approaches.

Goodstuff piles
In many games/formats there will be cards that are just better than other cards on rate, because they match up well against common meta cards, or what have you. A solid approach to deckbuilding (that I hate, but is pretty good) is to play whatever deck let's you maximize the number of these cards you can play. Then add removal and card advantage (draw/discard/2-for-1s) to taste.

Archtype decks
Another approach is to focus on filling a broad deck archetype, commonly control or aggro.

Control Decks
A control deck looks to focus on answering your opponents threats, typically in the most efficient way (card wise) possible, drawing cards, and only winning the game when you have the game locked down. Control decks want to have lots of resources (in general) since they tend to have cards to make use of the resources.

Aggro decks
An aggro deck is looking to win the game against a goldfish as fast as possible, and play enough disruption to make you opponent unable to stop you. Aggro decks tend to play fewer than normal resources, and lots of cheap threats, counting on their ability to play through all their cards before you can play through yours (and also having more cards that "do things" since they have fewer resource cards)

Synergy decks can be more fun and interesting, but decks where each piece is powerful on its own, like goodstuff decks, or is largely interchangeable, like in archtype decks, tend to do well when there's a lot of 1-for-1 interaction, because they tend to be robust (e.g. in Magic, healthy formats tend not to have too many synergy decks). Not sure how things work/will work in other games, but it's a useful set of lenses to apply, I think.

Railing Kill
Nov 14, 2008

You are the first crack in the sheer face of god. From you it will spread.
Yeah, that's good advice. When I say synergy, I don't necessarily mean combo decks. But then again, not every deck needs to have a bunch of interlocking synergies. Sometimes it's enough to run a lot of good value. I ran almost exclusively red, black, and red/black aggro back when I played tournament Magic. There wasn't usually a lot of synergy to those per se, just a lot of high power-to-cost ratios. Just good value, and winning or losing in five minutes or less. Good decks, regardless of their strategies, will maximize what you get for what you pay in mana/energy/ink, etc. Building up synergies is one way to maximize ROI, but some cards are just good ROI on their own. But for a new player and someone new to deckbuilding in general, that may be harder to identify at first.

Kalko
Oct 9, 2004

Today I watched some Pixelborn games on Youtube to get a feel for how Lorcana plays. Here's a video from one of the channels where the guy rates 40 different decks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z94TW6NkjzM

I was expecting a very simplistic game based on what I'd read, but it seems like it has some depth and you can do some cool things. I have no interest in picking up a TCG (it's not available in my country until next year anyway) but I would definitely check out a digital release if there was one. And if Ravensburger/Disney really is going after MTG then you'd think they'd have a plan for making one. It's an interesting business proposition though, like, you'd have to assume it's much more profitable to get established in the physical market first before going digital rather than the other way around or doing them simultaenously.

I only found this thread recently and I gotta say it was a huge nostalgia trip reading about L5R. I played it in the late 90s/early 00s and I used to host 5-6 player games pretty regularly on weekends after I gave up MTG. Fantastic game, and I loved how a player's choice of clan allowed them to express their personality and/or archetype/playstyle preferences. Our Crab player, our Ninja/Unicorn player... I could write volumes.

I also enjoyed reading about VTES and a few other CCGs I was aware of but never looked into. It sounds like VTES might be the only thing that comes close to matching L5R as a multiplayer experience. Also, Doji Hoturi got done dirty in the Day of Thunder resolution. All the other Thunders kept getting shiny new experienced versions but he was... well, dead. I think he eventually did get one in KYD, which was a rad set too. Yes, I was a Crane player at heart, though I had a deck of almost every clan because when I played CCGs I had to have ALL the cards. Shame about the FFG LCG, I bounced off it hard the first time I saw it in action.

EdsTeioh
Oct 23, 2004

PRAY FOR DEATH


Jyhad/VTES is *the* best multi player CCG. I also had the same feelings about missing L5R reading this thread and then realized that I sold my 5000+ card collection a while back.

Dawgstar
Jul 15, 2017

EdsTeioh posted:

Jyhad/VTES is *the* best multi player CCG. I also had the same feelings about missing L5R reading this thread and then realized that I sold my 5000+ card collection a while back.

VTES is the best, provided you have four players, and Shadowfist is a close second.

Gynovore
Jun 17, 2009

Forget your RoboCoX or your StickyCoX or your EvilCoX, MY CoX has Blinking Bewbs!

WHY IS THIS GAME DEAD?!

EdsTeioh posted:

Jyhad/VTES is *the* best multi player CCG. I also had the same feelings about missing L5R reading this thread and then realized that I sold my 5000+ card collection a while back.

I personally think L5R hit the holy grail of CCGs, which is that not only does it play well in 1v1 and multi, but often you can use the same deck. Granted this applied to the game in 1998, no idea what it's like now.

CitizenKeen
Nov 13, 2003

easygoing pedant
Oh, hey, L5R LCG has a fan continuation as well!

https://emeraldlegacy.org/

Looks like I've got some reading to do tonight. Looks a lot more desperate / cheap than others (Star Wars Destiny, Netrunner), but it's better than the Decipher ones.

Toshimo
Aug 23, 2012

He's outta line...

But he's right!
Having played dozens and dozens of dead CCGs, I can tell you that rose-colored glasses are very much a thing, even for thread darlings like L5R, VTES, SWCCG, STCCG, etc. Even Magic sucked (and arguably still does).

It's the same thing as WoW Classic. It kinda worked back in the day because nobody knew what they were doing, communication was poor, and so was availability. Metagames never really developed meaningfully or fully by the time they changed, and even at the big events, half of it was just rogue garbage from people just there to have fun.

None of them really stand up well to modern scrutiny, and it's exceptionally hard to build a good new game, as evidenced by the fact that all of the big dawgs in the industry have roots from the 90s and survive on inertia.

JawnV6
Jul 4, 2004

So hot ...
I got the 3rd Lorcana pre-con at an event. I did pretty well overall at them, final table in 2. Lost one, won one, split the store credit in both so it was a wash either way.

The resourcing is interesting. It was a dozen+ games before I saw someone get screwed on ink, they had 3 cards in hand that couldn't be inked with cost 6-7 and 5 ink on the field. Apart from that games generally went to the point of both players top decking.

I tried a multiplayer game after the final game last night. Going 3rd seems like a significant disadvantage, the two of them were around 15 lore and I was stuck at 3. Kingmaking was the best I could do, they were both close enough to just go for the win instead of caring about the other one who was close.

Randalor
Sep 4, 2011



CitizenKeen posted:

Oh, hey, L5R LCG has a fan continuation as well!

https://emeraldlegacy.org/

Looks like I've got some reading to do tonight. Looks a lot more desperate / cheap than others (Star Wars Destiny, Netrunner), but it's better than the Decipher ones.

It's such a great continuation that they even kept the tradition of "Giving Lion Clan yet another set of new mechanics with little/no support". In this case, stuff that cares about discarding followers/attachments in a clan that had... *checks notes* 0 Followers before this, so would HAVE to use the new stronghold to use. Yeah, I kinda checked out of that group when apparently all the Lion clan playtesters pointed out the new Lion cards were kinda bad and shouted down. Then the new set went live and very few of the new cards were used because... they were all kinda bad for the cost.

LifeLynx
Feb 27, 2001

Dang so this is like looking over his shoulder in real-time
Grimey Drawer

Randalor posted:

It's such a great continuation that they even kept the tradition of "Giving Lion Clan yet another set of new mechanics with little/no support". In this case, stuff that cares about discarding followers/attachments in a clan that had... *checks notes* 0 Followers before this, so would HAVE to use the new stronghold to use. Yeah, I kinda checked out of that group when apparently all the Lion clan playtesters pointed out the new Lion cards were kinda bad and shouted down. Then the new set went live and very few of the new cards were used because... they were all kinda bad for the cost.

Lol, FFG does this with Arkham Horror as well. The Survivor class is the only one that doesn't map directly to one of the four stats characters have. So instead, they get the odd mechanics they can't fit anywhere else and rarely get support outside of the set they appear in.

Railing Kill
Nov 14, 2008

You are the first crack in the sheer face of god. From you it will spread.

Toshimo posted:

Having played dozens and dozens of dead CCGs, I can tell you that rose-colored glasses are very much a thing, even for thread darlings like L5R, VTES, SWCCG, STCCG, etc. Even Magic sucked (and arguably still does).

It's the same thing as WoW Classic. It kinda worked back in the day because nobody knew what they were doing, communication was poor, and so was availability. Metagames never really developed meaningfully or fully by the time they changed, and even at the big events, half of it was just rogue garbage from people just there to have fun.

None of them really stand up well to modern scrutiny, and it's exceptionally hard to build a good new game, as evidenced by the fact that all of the big dawgs in the industry have roots from the 90s and survive on inertia.

There's fundamental design flaws baked into the cake of all of these games, and obtuse designs of individual cards from the 1990's. I don't think anyone is saying any of these games are perfect, but VTES (or L5R) is still the best multiplayer CCG given the assumption that all of them are flawed. It's just kind of a non-statement to say that these games have problems. Like...yeah? We're talking about multiplayer CCGs that we have in this reality, not in a theoretical reality where WotC didn't stunt game design for twenty years and throttle every new CCG in the crib.

Kalko
Oct 9, 2004

Toshimo posted:

Having played dozens and dozens of dead CCGs, I can tell you that rose-colored glasses are very much a thing, even for thread darlings like L5R, VTES, SWCCG, STCCG, etc. Even Magic sucked (and arguably still does).

It's the same thing as WoW Classic. It kinda worked back in the day because nobody knew what they were doing, communication was poor, and so was availability. Metagames never really developed meaningfully or fully by the time they changed, and even at the big events, half of it was just rogue garbage from people just there to have fun.

None of them really stand up well to modern scrutiny, and it's exceptionally hard to build a good new game, as evidenced by the fact that all of the big dawgs in the industry have roots from the 90s and survive on inertia.

WoW Classic is a good comparison. I have very fond memories of my time back then but there's no way in hell I would ever want to play it again, and when it came out I loaded it up once for curiosity's sake and played for about five minutes before uninstalling. I've always believed the latest WoW expansion is the best (at least in the sense that I've never wanted to return to an earlier expansion) because of the way its gameplay and mechanics get continually refined and developed and modernized, for want of a better way to explain it. Shadowlands was a step back in a lot of ways, but even then there were new quality of life changes and other bits which fit the pattern.

L5R had a huge amount of jank and bad design stuff, but there was a lot of good in there too, and it also went through a lot of modernization over its run. I'm thinking of the early 10s when I briefly dipped back into it, and it had gone through a lot of homogenization to try to make it a respectable game for organized play; the balance was still kind of all over the place, but the general design had drastically lowered the power curve from those early days. I'll never forget when a local TO here in Australia invited the head designer to come over from the US and he actually came, and I got to shoot the poo poo with him about those early days. I told him how much fun it was to summarily execute everyone else's dudes with the original Isawa Tsuke, and he agreed, but then he commented that it wasn't much fun for the other guy. I nodded sagely.

And just to sink the boot into MTG a bit, I really don't understand its continued popularity apart from, as you suggest, inertia. I used to check back in on spoilers for new sets, but around ten years or so ago I dropped off even doing that because it was clear they had run out of elegant designs. I think I made this comment in the Pokemon thread, but it seems like every modern MTG card is just a giant wall of text, and the game feels incredibly mechanically convoluted as a result. Yeah, other games have wordy cards too, but in MTG it's like every other one. And so many of them are chaff, which I know has always been a thing and is part of the whole homogenization seemingly required for competitive play, but that combined with the long-winded mechanics, I dunno, the game has just never seemed more flat-out uninteresting to me. One thing I will say for it though is that it had a lot of great top-down design going at one point. I'm thinking of the spooky gothic town set, I want to say Innistrad?

And to bring it back to Lorcana, when I was watching this Pixelborn game I found it really easy to understand what both decks were trying to do. Part of that is because the description of the video mentioned "Control vs Ramp" and those are familiar terms to me, but mostly it was because the commentary only had to highlight a few key cards (which were easy enough to pause the video and read) for everything to make sense. Its gamestate is extremely readable, and it reminded me of something Brian Kibler said about Hearthstone a few weeks ago, which is that a lot of game designers come after it thinking they've identified its main flaw, which is that you can't interact on your opponent's turn, and they try to make games that "correct" that. But all of those games die on the vine and Hearthstone keeps trucking along as one of the most popular card games in the world. His closing comment was that it's just really, really hard to make a good game.

Magnetic North
Dec 15, 2008

Beware the Forest's Mushrooms

Dawgstar posted:

VTES is the best, provided you have four players, and Shadowfist is a close second.

I think Shadowfist is okay but too long at 4. It's like 45-75 minutes at 3 but 120-150 minutes at 4, at least in my experience. I'm sure it's faster at stronger tables.

OTOH, VTES shines at 5 but will take 120-180 minutes, but it's doesn't get that much longer at 5 than 4. The reason for the 5th is that the predator-prey mechanics work best there. Your grand-prey is not also your grand-predator, making little waves of pressure ripple through the game, instead of having your cross-table buddy turn it into Bridge.

At 4, I still haven't seen something better than Elder Dragon Highlander, a popular fan variant of a game set in the Fortnite metaverse where you sweat fealty to brands. At least, that's what I think is happening.

Railing Kill
Nov 14, 2008

You are the first crack in the sheer face of god. From you it will spread.

Magnetic North posted:

I think Shadowfist is okay but too long at 4. It's like 45-75 minutes at 3 but 120-150 minutes at 4, at least in my experience. I'm sure it's faster at stronger tables.

OTOH, VTES shines at 5 but will take 120-180 minutes, but it's doesn't get that much longer at 5 than 4. The reason for the 5th is that the predator-prey mechanics work best there. Your grand-prey is not also your grand-predator, making little waves of pressure ripple through the game, instead of having your cross-table buddy turn it into Bridge.

At 4, I still haven't seen something better than Elder Dragon Highlander, a popular fan variant of a game set in the Fortnite metaverse where you sweat fealty to brands. At least, that's what I think is happening.

Hahaha

HidaO-Win
Jun 5, 2013

"And I did it, because I was a man who had exhausted reason and thus turned to magicks"
I’m a long term L5R CCG player, I’m good at the game and I even did a little design work with it.

I often think of being good at L5R a bit like being really good at fighting with a very obscure weapon, it’s hard to explain to people and it can be difficult to demonstrate the appeal.

I used to think that a modern redesign of L5R would be an interesting challenge, but I think trying to do that would inevitably trim off the unique selling points of L5R almost inevitably.

The LCG (which was apparently the second L5R LCG they designed as the first was nothing like L5R) ended up as this european resource gathering game all about incremental advantage. It was a good game, with good rules and bad card design, that was very demanding to play well.

But then I watch Battletech doing well in the modern games space with an 80s ruleset and I wonder if the feel of the game overcomes specific klunkiness. I think to do L5R again, you need to embrace the things that make it unique and just deal with the horrors of an ever increasing boardstate and an array of victory conditions as just part of the charm.

Failson
Sep 2, 2018
Fun Shoe

John Romero posted:

I believe the company that handles the card section at target (it’s a third party) said that they are planning on blocking off a decent amount of space for lorcana. they stopped selling boosters that aren’t in additional packaging because they were insanely easy to steal

Lorcana is hitting general retail on the 1st, correct? I foresee a wave of "Shoplifting Violence!" - alarmist local news reports.

coelomate
Oct 21, 2020


Failson posted:

Lorcana is hitting general retail on the 1st, correct? I foresee a wave of "Shoplifting Violence!" - alarmist local news reports.

It is. It went up for sale with big per-person limits in Disney Word earlier this week, lines were very long.

goodness
Jan 3, 2012

just keep swimming

Failson posted:

Lorcana is hitting general retail on the 1st, correct? I foresee a wave of "Shoplifting Violence!" - alarmist local news reports.

Yes, but some Walmarts and targets have already started putting it out. My walmart had 2 booster boxes and a starter deck case

CapnAndy
Feb 27, 2004

Some teeth long for ripping, gleaming wet from black dog gums. So you keep your eyes closed at the end. You don't want to see such a mouth up close. before the bite, before its oblivion in the goring of your soft parts, the speckled lips will curl back in a whinny of excitement. You just know it.

JawnV6 posted:

I'm going to do a Lorcana sealed this weekend.

What in the world does a Lorcana curve look like?
The ink system has drawbacks, but the really nice thing about it is that you don't actually have to worry about that. Most of the cards are in the 1-5 range, clustering up at 3-5, and most of the bigger bombs have secondary Shift costs that drop them down to that too. The only major cost card you absolutely have to hard-cast every time is Dragon Maleficent.

Put whoever you want into your deck; if you draw them and you don't think you'll have the ink to cast them any time soon, ink the fuckers intead. No big deal.

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goodness
Jan 3, 2012

just keep swimming
If anyone is in Virginia Beach, i have a preorder of 4 Lorcana boxes at MSRP that you can have (not paid for yet) if they let you pick them up. I won't be making the drive to get them.

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