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VanillaGorilla posted:Lol okay but now we’re getting into levels of three oaths wordsmithing and conspiracy drawing that make no sense from a narrative standpoint. Unless wordsmithing is a big part of aes sedai for some reason.
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Sep 2, 2023 18:40
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Pleads posted:Just read it from her perspective as "and I haven't mentioned Mat a single time." She's been omitting any mention of Mat from the letters, so there's no mention of Mat, so there's no lie. if we're assuming it's not technically a lie, i think this is the only explanation that makes sense -- she's been omitting sections referring to him and she's right that it must be painful that there's not a single mention of him. at least, it's a better explanation than "the letters say Mat not Mat Cauthon"
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Sep 2, 2023 18:55
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VanillaGorilla posted:Also Elaida probably has a bigger fan-base than Liandrin so cutting her seems dumb. Could be they originally intended to have Elaida but then decided to swerve because Kate Fleetwood is crushing it
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Sep 2, 2023 18:59
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It’s possible, because I agree that she’s killing it, but it just seems like the kind of change that has compounding challenges as you go along. Now….merging Liandrin and Alviarin might be something you could do that makes for a smoother transition…
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Sep 2, 2023 19:03
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VanillaGorilla posted:It’s possible, because I agree that she’s killing it, but it just seems like the kind of change that has compounding challenges as you go along. I agree, I could totally see them merging Liandrin with Aiviarin, especially since Liandrin disappears as Alviarin becomes a more prominent character. I also feel like it's important that Elaida isn't actually a Black sister, since that would make it much less messy for the Aes Sedai with Egwene to simply call for her being deposed. Of course, so much has already changed that I don't really know where they're going, but the tower split seems pretty important so I think Elaida needs to be her own character. Edit: Rafe confirmed Elaida was in the series in the JordonCon 2023 video https://wheeloftime.fandom.com/wiki/JordanCon/2023_transcript#Question_1_-_Characters_in_later_seasons pik_d fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Sep 2, 2023 |
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Sep 2, 2023 19:20
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Since this thread seems more bumping than the TVIV non-spoiler thread, I'm just gonna port my thoughts from that thread over here instead. I'm really enjoying the ambiguity they're adding to Liandrin. That whole "Is she bad guy with humanizing elements to her, or just a really lovely good guy?" is an excellent arc for her. This show needs more Logain, like a lot more Logain, and fast. Him being a sloppy "shows up drunk to class and then just wings it" teacher in the art of How To Be Dragon Reborn to Rand sounds rad as poo poo and I hope they commit to it. Same with Ishamael's whole schtick being "Why does everyone seem to think I'M the bad guy here? I mean, I totally am, but it still hurts my feelings that they think I am." That was weirdly funny to me.
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Sep 2, 2023 19:54
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nine-gear crow posted:Since this thread seems more bumping than the TVIV non-spoiler thread, I'm just gonna port my thoughts from that thread over here instead. I'm really enjoying the ambiguity they're adding to Liandrin. That whole "Is she bad guy with humanizing elements to her, or just a really lovely good guy?" is an excellent arc for her. I think the direction they’re taking with Ishamael makes a load of sense - and, honestly, works better within the fiction than RJ’s own handling of Ish (particularly in the first three books, where he’s much more stereotypical fantasy antagonist). It also works with Liandrin’s deeper characterization. There’s a “sell” to being a dark friend that the show is doing a good job of capturing. Ishamael thinks he’s a good guy - or at least that he’s the one operating from the sense of true “good”. Liandrin is offering Nynaeve an alternate vision of what she can do with her power (“there’s more than one way to be Aes Sendai”). It’s good stuff!
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Sep 2, 2023 20:03
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VanillaGorilla posted:I think the direction they’re taking with Ishamael makes a load of sense - and, honestly, works better within the fiction than RJ’s own handling of Ish (particularly in the first three books, where he’s much more stereotypical fantasy antagonist). Yeah, that was the deeper level behind my little shitpost version of, I like that he genuinely thinks he's in the right and that his version of the way things are supposed to go down is seen by him as sort of a net benefit to the world. So he's like "Yeah, I will absolutely obliterate you if I need to, but I'd rather you just come over to my side without a fight so I'm just gonna be my normal self until you force me not to be." The prologue scene with the girl shows that really well. Darkfriends aren't born, they're made, and they're people who legitimately think the Dark One is going to make the world better for everyone. So Ishamael being the ultimate expression of idea because he was functionally either the first Darkfriend or the CEO of Darkfriends ties really well into that.
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Sep 2, 2023 20:09
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They also did well in season one with the darkfriend innkeeper lady (E: Dana) with a more cogent Darkfriend rationale:quote:The Wheel keeps turning, and people keep hurting. Every man who comes to this shite town has a story. Flood, drought, war, sisters murdering their brothers, children killing their parents. But the Dragon... the Dragon has a chance to change all that. Break the Wheel. Make it stop.
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Sep 3, 2023 00:27
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Twelve letters, and Liandrin didn't mention Mat when reading them one time.
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Sep 3, 2023 00:39
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nine-gear crow posted:Yeah, that was the deeper level behind my little shitpost version of, I like that he genuinely thinks he's in the right and that his version of the way things are supposed to go down is seen by him as sort of a net benefit to the world. So he's like "Yeah, I will absolutely obliterate you if I need to, but I'd rather you just come over to my side without a fight so I'm just gonna be my normal self until you force me not to be." I honestly don't like this interpretation. I cannot name a single Darkfriend in the books who believes the Dark One is actually going to save everyone and bring about some cool, shiny utopia - they are all universally motivated by some vice that they think going over to the Dark One is going to fix. Lanfear wants power which is why Lews Therin originally dumped her. Demandred is jealous of Lews Therin. Moghedien is a piece of crap with no redeeming values. Graendal likes the D. Even lesser darkfriends like Liandrin joined because they get to do things like torture people or use primitive mind control. As Rand points out in A Memory of Light, the Dark One has no true believers! The stated goal of the Dark One is to destroy the world and remake it in his image, and even the Darkfriend armies don't want any of that because they refused to use balefire during the war. It's kind of a bigger problem I have with the show where they seem to get a lot of the wiki stuff right but miss a lot of what I consider to be the big themes of the series. The struggle against the Dark One is reflective of the struggle against humanity's capacity for evil, both externally and internally, but they cut the Dragonmount prologue that set that up in favor of Lews Therin Telamon being a moron who attacked the Dark One for no reason. The show is, per Judkins, about female power, but they took Moraine, the woman who went toe to toe with the Forsaken via balefire and literally dies taking out Lanfear and turned her into a woman who suffered "the most vicious assault". Maybe I'm just nuts, because every critic is raving about how WoT season 2 is finding its footing, but I don't think it's a very good adaptation.
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Sep 3, 2023 04:00
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Moiraine didn't die killing lanfear. That was a big deal in the books, that she was actually alive the whole time.
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Sep 3, 2023 04:12
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CainFortea posted:Moiraine didn't die killing lanfear. That was a big deal in the books, that she was actually alive the whole time. I'm aware, but she was willing to.
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Sep 3, 2023 04:18
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:I'm aware You sure?
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Sep 3, 2023 04:19
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In terms of the struggle between good and evil, I think it's important that an adaptation be just that: an adaptation. The darkfriends in the books are mustache twirling villains but modern audiences are used to more nuanced portrayals. The best example of not following that rule is Jupiter's Legacy, where an edgy conflict over whether police and superheroes should be allowed to kill criminals kind of fell flat in the face of current events. Lews Therin scenes were dumb tho.
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Sep 3, 2023 04:20
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Morrow posted:Lews Therin scenes were dumb tho. I also enjoy people complaining about "the who is the dragon mystery was dumb" and "They should have had the dragonmount prologue, which is nothing but a big mystery at first" ven diagrams is just a circle.
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Sep 3, 2023 04:26
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BigHead posted:
That was very next gen Worf to me. Someone is going to look like a total bad rear end shredding fades. Book Lan wouldn't have broken a sweat. That's ok though. Book Lan is far more inhuman and gives genuinely bad advice.
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Sep 3, 2023 06:06
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CainFortea posted:I also enjoy people complaining about "the who is the dragon mystery was dumb" and "They should have had the dragonmount prologue, which is nothing but a big mystery at first" ven diagrams is just a circle. Both of these things are true, though. Dragonmount isn't just setting up a mystery, it's a chronicle of the original sin in the world's lore. It doesn't necessarily imply that any of our mains may be the Dragon Reborn, beyond the genre assumption that one of them is the chosen one to one degree or another. Moiraine showing up and declaring that one of these kids is the Dragon, and the show avoiding any deep characterization of the main characters to not give away who it might be, is much less interesting. Especially since it ends up being the most obvious candidate anyway.
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Sep 3, 2023 06:22
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CainsDescendant posted:Both of these things are true, though. Eh. You're wrong about the dragonmount prologue, that would be absolute garbage in the medium of the tv show. The point is that if you're going to complain that adding a mystery is dumb, just replacing it with another mystery doesn't solve the complaint you had.
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Sep 3, 2023 06:25
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BigHead posted:
This also annoyed me. Lan is, well, Lan. Making him look like goofy doofus getting punked by a couple fades just sucks. It probably won't be in the show, but I can't see taking the "who are you?" line seriously after displays like this.
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Sep 3, 2023 06:26
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Devorum posted:This also annoyed me. Lan is, well, Lan. Making him look like goofy doofus getting punked by a couple fades just sucks. Alternatively, it shows that the various monsters are actual threats and need to be taken seriously.
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Sep 3, 2023 06:47
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I never liked how Trollocs were described as 8 feet tall, made of muscle, and fought with bestial abandon yet were also trivial to defeat by the dozens by even regular soldiers. The shadow spawn in the show still feel very dangerous even to professional badasses like Lan and I think that's a good thing.
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Sep 3, 2023 07:30
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Health Services posted:Alternatively, it shows that the various monsters are actual threats and need to be taken seriously. Yeah, that seems like it was supposed to be the intention of the scene. Not "lol Lan sucks, what a tool", but "holy poo poo, those things just chumped loving Lan Mandragoran. We're screwed."
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Sep 3, 2023 07:31
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to be fair, in the books Lan only ever took out two by himself, three would no doubt wreck him
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Sep 3, 2023 07:58
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Health Services posted:Alternatively, it shows that the various monsters are actual threats and need to be taken seriously. It doesn't, because we have yet to see Lan being a great swordsman. He's full on Worfed out. It's whatever, I'm not going to stop watching the show over it...just a little eyeroll.
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Sep 3, 2023 08:08
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Devorum posted:It doesn't, because we have yet to see Lan being a great swordsman. He's full on Worfed out. So I guess him holding his own against the Two Rivers Trollocs and Logain's army of goons just didn't happen then?
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Sep 3, 2023 08:23
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nine-gear crow posted:So I guess him holding his own against the Two Rivers Trollocs and Logain's army of goons just didn't happen then? You can't expect people to remember events that have happened on-screen in the course of the show!
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Sep 3, 2023 08:32
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nine-gear crow posted:So I guess him holding his own against the Two Rivers Trollocs and Logain's army of goons just didn't happen then? The battle where all the warders held their own against his goons? What did he do that put him above Alanna's warders? The Trollocs that came at him one at a time like '80s American Ninja movies? Yeah, those were cool...but neither said "this is the guy whose sword mastery other warders stand in awe of". Neither shows us that, even exhausted, he'd make the guy who just cut down two of the best swordsmen alive, one of which was using hyperspeed ter'angreal, go "hold up, where the gently caress did you come from?". EDIT: Look, I'm not even saying he should have won the fade fight. Just maybe done a little more than take one out by surprise, then get beat down while not doing much else. Devorum fucked around with this message at 09:00 on Sep 3, 2023 |
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Sep 3, 2023 08:48
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CainsDescendant posted:I never liked how Trollocs were described as 8 feet tall, made of muscle, and fought with bestial abandon yet were also trivial to defeat by the dozens by even regular soldiers. They weren't. The only places we see Trollocs being trivially defeated by the dozens are where good fortifications allow them to be defeated at range, or when there's nearby channelers that decided to rip loose. Otherwise, every time you see even a small number of them they're treated as a serious threat. They lose a lot of punch narratively because so many of the main characters are either powerful channelers themselves, have some nearby at all times, or are a superanatrually lucky strategic genius with all the greatest generals of history in his head. When we see regular soldiers fighting them it is clear that the regular soldiers are outmatched.
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Sep 3, 2023 09:30
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CainFortea posted:The point is that if you're going to complain that adding a mystery is dumb, just replacing it with another mystery doesn't solve the complaint you had. It's almost as if some mysteries are good and some are bad.
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Sep 3, 2023 15:30
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:It's almost as if some mysteries are good and some are bad. It's almost as if some folks try to pass off their subjective preferences as objective truths.
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Sep 3, 2023 15:49
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I’ve made it a habit to let people love what they love and hate what they hate, but that doesn’t make for spicy posting on the world’s most troll free forums
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Sep 3, 2023 16:26
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New season is super awesome so far! I think the divergences from the book are actually helping more now - the skeleton of the plot structure is there, but there's more room for the characters to do what makes sense. - Rand/Selene together is great. O'Keefe is just killing it - it's all there for the fans in the know but subtle enough I think for watchers only. Really looking forward to how it develops this season, and it's gonna be even more of a gut punch for Rand when he finds out. - I like that Rand isn't just wandering around - he had a goal to find someone to teach him about the Power, clearly remembered Logain from seeing him in Tar Valon, tracked him down, and acted to get put in position to talk to him. Plus Logain's actor is probably the best on the show, so any excuse for more is good. - Moiraine/Lan is probably my least favorite part. Not that they aren't doing a great job, and it does mirror some of the things from the book where Moiraine tells Lan that she is going to pass the bond on to Myrelle if she dies, but you just kind of want to shake them both and lock them in a room until they actually talk and work things out. Sure, Moiraine being cut off is traumatic for both of them, but they worked together for 20 years on this quest. - Everything else with Moiraine + Verin is great. Verin's actor is a great fit, and hopefully they can reach the more impactful parts of her story. - New Mat is great - instantly works well in the little bits like him miming the door being closed/locked and Liandrin walking away. Plus the Min + Mat pairing is great. - Nynaeve's test was perfect. The fake-out got me, then realizing that she got Inner Light-ed is so heartwrenching. Love the scenes with Mat + Perrin in the arch, especially the nod to fans with Mat - both his fancy clothing and then missing an eye after the attack. - Not that she's done much, but Elayne is well-casted. A great mix of the haughtiness and yet charismatic friendliness. Also she makes booze with the Power. - Liandrin is the big question mark mystery for this season - is she Black already, or will she fall during the season? Outside chance she isn't at all and is an Elaida-like figure (not evil but bad?). I think she is Black already but she's doing so much to ride that line that it is fascinating to watch. - Adding the sort of past-vision to the wolf brother power set is neat. Great way to mix in Hurin while keeping Elyas as Perrin's main tutor. Interesting to see where that will go. - RIP Uno. Too bad he was so well-cast and written, but it makes sense. Book-wise, Uno basically does nothing but hang around on the periphery, and it makes sense to have an example of the Seanchan power with a character you will actually miss. - Ishamael giving Perrin the clear motivation to avoid using the wolf powers works well when we can't see inside of Perrin's head. Season is obviously setting up Falme as the final confrontation - Mat being led there by Min (under Liandrin's orders), Egwene/Elayne/Nynaeve will be led by Liandrin directly. Perrin will follow the caravan to rescue the Shienarans. Rand will either have a dream or maybe Moiraine will find him and relay the prophecy that relates to Toman Head. Like in the books, maybe Rand will try to use the portal stones to get there and get that scene. Falme will probably resemble the books pretty closely - Rand fighting Turok and then Ishamael in the sky, Mat blowing the horn etc. Remaining big question right now is Min's vision of Mat stabbing Rand with the dagger. Could be something as simple as when they find the dagger with the Horn, it possesses Mat and drives him to do it. Or maybe it will be something like after Rand's fight with Ishamael he gets the wound in his side, and for some reason Mat uses the dagger to cauterize the wound? Or Mat is stabbing someone disguised as Rand using the power.
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Sep 3, 2023 17:24
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CainFortea posted:It's almost as if some folks try to pass off their subjective preferences as objective truths. "You're wrong about the dragonmount prologue, that would be absolute garbage in the medium of the tv show." Lol just zero consistency within the span of two posts.
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Sep 3, 2023 17:53
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Rarity posted:You can't expect people to remember events that have happened on-screen in the course of the show! Is there not a bit in that actual episode where Lan says that the loss of the bond has affected him? He's not got access to the full stamina and endurance that Warders normally enjoy and it's cost him a beat that even he needs to beat multiple Fades.
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Sep 3, 2023 18:23
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I watched the three episodes today. I was chatting up with my sister about them, she also had read the books in the past (up to book 7 think?) and it's funny, she is less fan of the books than me (I finished them!) but with the tv series she is being more purist, despite my explanations of how it would have been impossible, she really wanted something more faithful. Some random commentary (both book and episodes spoilers). Truly random, because it isn't even ordered by episodes. -I had already forgotten some of the changes they did at the end of Season 1, like Moraine being 'stilled'. I guess this will eventually be reverted and shown she had a tied shield placed on her by Ishamael. -I liked Selene and Rand being lovers, as it will give them some common past history when she turns enemies later. That said, it's a pity they had to do an 'in media res' presenting their character directly as this, we missed how they met, how they flirted, etc. -The new Mat is good, like the first actor. Crisis adverted, although it seems the story still suffers from the consequences of the last season (how she ignored Egwene once he was freed, in the time of need, come on!). It will make even harder for the character to reconcíliate with his friends later. -Nynaeve fakeout on her third test was cool, they totally got me (I mean, they are making so many changes, that this could be another change they had done). However, they spent 60% of the third episode on her Acceptance test and related scenes (like other character reacting to her 'death'). Given we only have 8 episodes per season, I wonder if it should have been shorter. -At first I thought they were laying too thick with Rand choosing to work in an asylum, so we could have examples of mad men on screen as reminder to what it will be his fate, but it ultimately makes sense, it was for getting to Logain. -This also serves to make Rand a more proactive character. He is doing stuff he wants or needs to do, instead of just reacting to what happens to him or following others. -The brief scene in the Cairhien noble house was good, it is a pity that surely that will be the last time we have it, I remember liking those chapters in the second book, with people misinterpreting Rand's attitude with him being a 'mater of the game', it was pretty comedic. -Like most people, I like the new dimensions they are giving to Liandrin. Some people are wondering if they will change their affiliation to the Black Ajah. I think she still will be a Black Sister and are just showing that Darkfriends are also humans and be love other people, etc. -I wonder if Gawyn will appear on this season (of if he will appear at all in the series!). He should have arrived to the Tower with Elayne. -The fight with the Fades at the end of episode 1 was ehh. They weren't able to show off how Fades move with almost superhuman speed, and how of a feat is to fend them off. -I liked Elayne's intro. Of course, this is a tv series, not a book, so they needed to show strongly to the people who doesn't know her what's her deal: a princess, heir to the throne, so accustomed to another life, bul ultimately with the heart in a good place. -Seanchan's arrival is not impressive. A few dozen soldiers attacking in a what, a 40-people village? they tried to subtly justify it showing it was indeed a raid to get power-sensitive girls, but still, it doesn't make sense for Lady Suroth going with just a few dozen soldiers. The Seanchan might is supposed to be like the Roman legions: big, well organized, well trained, professional armies. -I liked Liandrin's scheme, with Min being a 'plant' put in place as prison mate so he would trust in her. -Sheriam's actress is too old, but well, what you are going to do. -Pervy Aes Sedai are fun.
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Sep 3, 2023 18:44
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Jedit posted:Is there not a bit in that actual episode where Lan says that the loss of the bond has affected him? He's not got access to the full stamina and endurance that Warders normally enjoy and it's cost him a beat that even he needs to beat multiple Fades. I don't remember the exact dialogue, but I think their bond is stuck in airplane mode. She masked it before losing her power. Turin Turambar posted:-I liked Selene and Rand being lovers, as it will give them some common past history when she turns enemies later. That said, it's a pity they had to do an 'in media res' presenting their character directly as this, we missed how they met, how they flirted, etc. Agreed. I'm hoping they'll include a flashback of their meeting when they reveal her identity. Attack on Princess fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Sep 3, 2023 |
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Sep 3, 2023 18:48
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I'm really leaning towards Moraine is shielded over stilled since we see that shielding feels like stilling in the series by the way Liandrin explained it to Nynaeve.
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Sep 3, 2023 18:53
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Turin Turambar posted:-Seanchan's arrival is not impressive. A few dozen soldiers attacking in a what, a 40-people village? they tried to subtly justify it showing it was indeed a raid to get power-sensitive girls, but still, it doesn't make sense for Lady Suroth going with just a few dozen soldiers. The Seanchan might is supposed to be like the Roman legions: big, well organized, well trained, professional armies. If you look at Suroth’s side, though, we have Ishamael. Who clearly wanted Perrin captured. This is possibly attributable to Ishamael guiding Suroth’s decisions toward an outcome he wanted. Also, the number of Seanchan soldiers was comparable to the number of people in the village. You don’t spend 400 soldiers on one village if 40 will do and leave you 360 to search the surrounding countryside.
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Sep 3, 2023 18:54
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I think it's pretty funny that the bookreader thread is bullish on S2 and the TV-only thread is more lukewarm.
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Sep 3, 2023 18:57
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