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rohan posted:Something I’ve never quite understood about HtN: The ghosts discuss this later; Harrow's operation reskinned her memories with a facsimile that was close enough to pass. The ghosts are essentially part of a play where she recreates this, but her memories of the events are already there. mewse posted:Palamedes in HtN:
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Sep 7, 2023 20:24
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rohan posted:Something I’ve never quite understood about HtN: The "second" timeline exists when Harrow is asleep and dreaming, you'll note that every prior chapter ends with some means of Harrow losing consciousness. So her memories are 'fresh' in that she doesn't remember what really happened and new plot twists keep filling in the open spots in her memory as she dreams them and its not helping her mental stability one bit. mewse posted:Palamedes in HtN: No, it was secure in its own thing. The only souls/actors involved were those that were already in the river or in harrow when the dream formed.
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Sep 7, 2023 20:24
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Very much enjoying little hints at things in the reread Now after Nona, I notice that it's Necromancer Coronabeth helping G carry the large unconscious man up the ladder.
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Sep 7, 2023 23:34
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Thanks!
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Sep 8, 2023 01:54
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rereading the unwanted guest and the bits where Ianthe goes into quotes are her very much doing the Socratic dialogue as the interlocutor. Also, from Tumblr: shiroikabocha Now that I’ve finished it, here are more coherent/useful thoughts (under cut because spoilers) Oh, this is so perfect. It’s SO perfect. Ianthe loves being Ianthe. Ianthe loves being Ianthe more than anything else in the world—the closest she gets to loving any non-Ianthe person is loving her twin sister, and from the way Ianthe talks about Coronabeth, it’s pretty clear that it’s a distinctly acquisitive love, not a love based on knowing anything meaningful about Coronabeth as a person. Ianthe is, above all, extremely disinterested in getting to know anyone who isn’t the Most Interesting Girl in the World (Ianthe). (I think that’s why she likes Augustine so much—he’s spent thousands of years crafting a perfectly blank persona, showing nothing of his interiority, leading Harrow to wonder if he even has any. Ianthe sees that and she’s like: awesome, finally somebody who’s not out to bore me with all their dumb complicated feelings, this guy’s the coolest ever, I want to be just like him) So for Palamades to hit her with that—oh man. Oh MAN. Ianthe, in your quest to solidify Ianthe Tridentarius as an eternal unchanging paragon of Awe, you have become… not Ianthe. And you were too obsessed with your own Ianthe-ness to even see it. You thought you could make the devil’s bargain with counterfeit currency and now the bill’s come due. Killing Babs is no big deal because “who cares about Babs?” Baby, YOU cares about Babs! You IS Babs now, bitch! Your perfect immutable self? You went and MUTED it! God, it’s the perfect way to cut a self-obsessed person to the core. You love yourself so much? The person you love doesn’t loving EXIST, Ianthe. You invited a permanent roommate into your soul and you don’t even LIKE him and now you’re on the lease together forever and you did it to yourself The unwanted guest isn’t Palamades. The unwanted guest is Babs. And the third coffin is empty, because the Third coffin is Ianthe #the locked tomb#the locked tomb spoilers#the unwanted guest#the unwanted guest spoilers
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Sep 8, 2023 03:17
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Harold Fjord posted:Very much enjoying little hints at things in the reread I like this aspect of the Tridentarii ruse because it does two things. yes, Muir is playing a game with the audience by providing all these hints,of which Corona's incongruous athleticism is the most obvious one But in-universe that's also aother layer of Ianthe's camouflage. A knowledgeable necromancer, even one that's suspicious and thinks there must be something weird going on with coronabeth, might easily take a wrong turn and think "Oh, maybe she's yoked and hot because she's using flesh magic to 'roid herself, maybe the reason Ianthe looks like poo poo is because she's a hack who isn't skilled enough to do that". The ruse easily works on Gideon because Gideon is terminally horny and distractible and Corona is distracting to be around. Against inquiring minds who are less ruled by hornt (say, Pal or Abigail), it has other layers that fall into place. Harrow only comes close to the truth due to being a legitimate paranoiac PupsOfWar fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Sep 8, 2023 |
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Sep 8, 2023 04:28
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After a reread I still think Nona is the weakest book out of the three. I get that Nona fits the series theme of an unreliable narrator and an unfolding situation, but to me a “child’s” point of view doesn’t make for a compelling story. A pov from anyone else where you got into the actual politics of boe and what was going on in the city would have been much more compelling. And the backstory of how John became god is just a giant exposition dump. It was interesting but just kind of there. Edit: Is it ever explained why John never names his friends in the history lessons? I was never able to figure out which A was Alfred or Augustine. But now I’m wondering if John gave them new names when he brought them back. He did say he changed all their memories. Demon_Corsair fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Sep 8, 2023 |
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Sep 8, 2023 16:18
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Demon_Corsair posted:After a reread I still think Nona is the weakest book out of the three. I get that Nona fits the series theme of an unreliable narrator and an unfolding situation, but to me a “child’s” point of view doesn’t make for a compelling story. A pov from anyone else where you got into the actual politics of boe and what was going on in the city would have been much more compelling. Big note here: Nona is not a child’s point of view. It’s a (neurodiverse) woman’s who has about the same level of information as Gideon did in GTN
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Sep 8, 2023 16:35
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Demon_Corsair posted:And the backstory of how John became god is just a giant exposition dump. It was interesting but just kind of there.
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Sep 8, 2023 16:52
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John absolutely changed their names, just as he “named” his two experimental corpses Ulysses and Titania instead of whatever they were named before. It’s his way of marking them as his people, the way he wants them to be. John hates being reminded of anything that might poke holes in his self-conception of being omnibenevolent and perfectly justified in everything he says and does and believes, so he consistently removes or changes anything that would do so.
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Sep 8, 2023 19:05
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DreamingofRoses posted:Big note here: Nona is not a child’s point of view. It’s a (neurodiverse) woman’s who has about the same level of information as Gideon did in GTN that's silly. it's absolutely a child's point of view. she goes to school, acts like a child, is obsessed with childish things, loves like a child. she's physically 18, mentally a lot less than that. I really liked nona, but harrow is probably my favourite. gideon is a very narrow third.
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Sep 8, 2023 20:32
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M_Gargantua posted:Wake can't control Cyth's body until after Harrow stabs it through on the slab at the mithraeum, but Harrow did notice her soul in the shuttle with them in the river, something Jod somehow missed. Just wanted to pick on this ... did Jod actually not notice Wake's soul in the shuttle with them, or did he deliberately ignore it for his own inscrutable reasons? Both seem reasonable. He definitely portrays himself as a bit of a bumbling idiot, and could have not noticed or have thought it wasn't important. But it could also have been five-dimensional chess. He definitely has more tricks up his sleeve, and there is definitely more going on than, than he lets on.
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Sep 8, 2023 20:37
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I just finished Gideon The Ninth.  My god that ending. I can see why this series has the reviews it has. So far, Harrow is slower and disjointed, but I expect it to speed up.
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Sep 9, 2023 04:43
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Harrow comes together in a huge mindfuck ending too
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Sep 9, 2023 05:05
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sebmojo posted:that's silly. it's absolutely a child's point of view. she goes to school, acts like a child, is obsessed with childish things, loves like a child. she's physically 18, mentally a lot less than that. She understands things, especially emotional things, in a way a child would not (and to be fair some of that is just down to her nature and her ability to comprehend meanings). I get what you’re saying but I disagree, and can see reflections of my ND early adult self in her behavior.
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Sep 9, 2023 15:45
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Nona doesn't really map perfectly to either an adult or a child, but since elections have been suspended and sex things are right out, the distinction doesn't really matter that much.
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Sep 9, 2023 17:26
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Dolash posted:Really bringing me back to some of the latter-day Homestuck arguments about consequences, stakes, and the ability to give a poo poo. I get your meaning about the stakes of death as they stand in-universe, in the story, but I think with how metatextually-aware the whole story's been written that those are the wrong stakes to worry about. Thanks for you thoughts. The thing is, I am not just looking at these books like universe in itself but also as a book. I think you do the same. It is author's job to get me involved to care about the characters. Gideon's self-sacrifice meant something, thus I was impressed. Harrow's whatever it was, was profound it was amazing to read and it was capitalized on Gideon's absorbtion. And Jeb's death? Is it really? Did he die or seemingly will be pulled out. And then we get Nona for some reason. I was really dissapointed with Nona. The intrigue, who is Nona? The book is called Nona the Ninth, so it is obvious that she is from the ninth house which is either harrow or someone who Nuir will create on the spot. None of these options excited me because Harrow the book was powerful enough and I want something else now and new character is meh. And than it's Harrow again, ok. A lot of people posted that change is worse than death? Is it really? Tamsyn wrote a whole goddamn novella about Pam and Ianthe but IMO everything Ianthe lost is her pride. She had a plan, than proceed go do whatever you planned. Does Babs being part of her soul stopping her? No, do it anyway if you want to. Or don't if you don't want to. Pameledes leaves the mental space as a victor, but what did he win? It was a childish argument and the result is basically "and he was albert einstein". I feel like Tamsyn Muir is deteriorating as a writer.
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Sep 9, 2023 17:54
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Sekenr posted:A lot of people posted that change is worse than death? Is it really? Tamsyn wrote a whole goddamn novella about Pam and Ianthe but IMO everything Ianthe lost is her pride. She had a plan, than proceed go do whatever you planned. Does Babs being part of her soul stopping her? No, do it anyway if you want to. Or don't if you don't want to. Pameledes leaves the mental space as a victor, but what did he win? It was a childish argument and the result is basically "and he was albert einstein". I feel like Tamsyn Muir is deteriorating as a writer. It's that the actual personal stakes are Change, because we're talking about necromancy so death is a far lesser stake. It was always going to be. Characters can still hang around after death, and what changes it creates are far more important than the fact of death itself. And we're dealing with a bunch of people who are mostly late teens and 20-somethings who haven't escaped from the conviction that they're already immortal and can never see consequences, and are in fact encouraged to such grand narcissism as to demand eternity exactly as they are now, forever. Like saying "everything Ianthe lost is her pride" is saying she had an existential crisis strong enough to shake her grip on the body because Ianthe is a pride elemental.
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Sep 9, 2023 18:20
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Yeah, ok. I guess I stumbled into YA literature and now complaining that it's for teenagers. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 9, 2023 19:38
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I wouldn't call Locked Tomb YA.
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Sep 9, 2023 19:58
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Also, if I understood Uninvited Guest and Nona right, the stakes for Ianthe were also that she lost control of Nabs' body. The exact causal mechanism is a little unclear, but Sex Pal scored points off her and then got a body out of it, so...
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Sep 9, 2023 20:14
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Zorak of Michigan posted:Also, if I understood Uninvited Guest and Nona right, the stakes for Ianthe were also that she lost control of Nabs' body. The exact causal mechanism is a little unclear, but Sex Pal scored points off her and then got a body out of it, so... Yeah that entire thing is happening in the second where Camilla touched Naberius' haunted corpse during their duel then immediately declared victory.
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Sep 9, 2023 20:26
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disposablewords posted:And we're dealing with a bunch of people who are mostly late teens and 20-somethings who haven't escaped from the conviction that they're already immortal and can never see consequences, and are in fact encouraged to such grand narcissism as to demand eternity exactly as they are now, forever. This reminds me that I really need to finish Xenoblade 3.
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Sep 9, 2023 20:32
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Sekenr posted:Yeah, ok. I guess I stumbled into YA literature and now complaining that it's for teenagers. I mean if your standard for YA is "has stakes other than death" then, uh, sure okay. But, as I've harped on at this point, it's about necromancy, death is the least interesting consequence regardless of reading level.
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Sep 9, 2023 21:04
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DreamingofRoses posted:She understands things, especially emotional things, in a way a child would not (and to be fair some of that is just down to her nature and her ability to comprehend meanings). I get what you’re saying but I disagree, and can see reflections of my ND early adult self in her behavior. Right, I'd just say she's both.
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Sep 9, 2023 21:32
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sebmojo posted:Right, I'd just say she's both. That’s fair. This is also probably just one of my personal gripes of optimistic and joyful characters being relegated to the ‘child-like’ category by default but that’s a rant for another thread.
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Sep 9, 2023 21:58
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DreamingofRoses posted:That’s fair. This is also probably just one of my personal gripes of optimistic and joyful characters being relegated to the ‘child-like’ category by default but that’s a rant for another thread. I get that, but she's dressed and fed by her parents, goes to school where she's blackboard monitor and she's consistently desperate to maintain her social position in a gang of 11 year olds, she's a kid* with the * containing a very extensive list of qualifiers
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Sep 9, 2023 22:21
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She's also in love with multiple characters, has a mature outlook on her impending death and is capable of horrifying acts of violence. Nona contains multitudes. Edit: I think she and others lean into the kid thing out of convenience because Harrow is physically small and it's easy to be like 'im babie' and get everyone to take care of you, but she sort of drops the act later on when she's doing stuff like talking to the evil moon and contemplating killing all of her friends at once so they can escape the nightmare they're all suffering through. Reclaimer fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Sep 9, 2023 |
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Sep 9, 2023 22:47
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Reclaimer posted:contemplating killing all of her friends at once so they can escape the nightmare they're all suffering through. Hot Sauce has 100% done the same thing in considerably more detail.
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Sep 9, 2023 22:53
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The only reason she goes to school is because CamPal and Pyrrha got ‘bullied’ into it by the social expectations of the people they were undercover in the middle of. It’s the one social thing she gets that isn’t being abducted by BoE and seeing Crown. The rest, to me, reads as a combination of ND (as I said before), a person who just recovered from massive physical trauma that also affected the brain re-learning how to operate a body, and Alecto allowing herself to forget she’s Alecto for a while and just ‘enjoy’ the experience of existing and getting to finally wind-down
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Sep 9, 2023 23:55
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She's literally neurodivergent and a minor.
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Sep 9, 2023 23:58
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I don’t know why I keep forgetting that Nona is six months old.
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Sep 10, 2023 00:00
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Miner not minor
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Sep 10, 2023 00:02
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ZShakespeare posted:She's literally neurodivergent and a minor. god dammit
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Sep 10, 2023 00:27
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Two souls neurodiverged in a city...
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Sep 10, 2023 00:38
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Nona is either 6 month's, 18, or 5 billion years all ages at which good decision making is questionable, and are problematic for different reasons.
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Sep 10, 2023 01:41
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DreamingofRoses posted:Alecto allowing herself to forget she’s Alecto for a while and just ‘enjoy’ the experience of existing and getting to finally wind-down I never caught that Alecto deliberately let herself become Nona. My read was that Nona is Nona because you can't fit a whole planetary mega-consciousness into a human brain, even a pretty big one like Harrow's. So Nona is the portion of Alecto that Harrow's brain was capable of instantiating when Alecto's soul got attached to her. That portion is complex enough to be a person and aware that, if she is reunited with the rest of herself, she won't continue to care about the same things or love the same people in the same way she's gotten used to, so she doesn't want that to happen. This I figured as a direct analog with what Cam and Pal do - dying to become someone new. Did I misread all that? "Letting" herself be Nona sounds a little more parallel to the self-lobotomy Harrow did previously PupsOfWar fucked around with this message at 05:43 on Sep 10, 2023 |
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Sep 10, 2023 05:40
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PupsOfWar posted:
I’m mostly directing that thought towards the point where poo poo starts getting serious and Pyrrha almost says Alecto’s name and Nona’s mouth gives the equivalent of a very scary ‘shut the gently caress up’. So I think there’s a part of Alecto (the upper-brain part) that could have come back to coherence sooner than it did if they weren’t worried about the consequences re:Harrow’s body dissolving
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Sep 10, 2023 08:09
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So just where is Harrow's personality while her body is being occupied by whatever it is
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Sep 10, 2023 12:07
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FuturePastNow posted:So just where is Harrow's personality while her body is being occupied by whatever it is It's in the Tomb, half in Alecto's body and half in the River, re-experiencing Alecto's memories. Because Alecto and John share a soul this makes it possible for John to occasionally speak directly to present-day Harrowhark in the context of the memory. We know this because Alecto sees and remarks on Harrow's soul in her body when they return to the Tomb, along with the body of Anastasia curled up by the door.
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Sep 10, 2023 13:20
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thunderdome winner