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Omi no Kami posted:The thing is, the web serial format is extremely weird and it lets you get away with bad habits that wouldn't fly in any other setting. I used to feel that any writing was good practice, but at this point the serial space is maybe the one counter-example I can think of, where it's possible to write millions of words and still churn out prose that sounds like it was written by an edgy sixth grader. I think it depends whether your goal is "get better at writing" or "have fun and/or make money writing." Web serials are a weird field where it's possible for something very bad to become very popular. But if you're just trying to make a career out of it and people are reading it, does it really matter if your writing is bad? And even the bad writing still has to be good at appealing to peoples' bad tastes. In a way, web serials are like the "mobile game" of writing, and some web serials are the equivalent of a "lovely gacha game" within that sphere. But even a lovely gacha game can make money for the developers.
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Sep 22, 2023 05:54
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I don't want to say I have a problem with that, because writers are free to do whatever the heck they want and more power to 'em! But I definitely don't understand people who enjoy writing, but don't want to get better. Writing is tremendously time- and planning-intensive, and why the heck would you put so much effort into something without trying to get better at it?
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Sep 22, 2023 09:00
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I feel like writing webfic has made me poorer at writing for other formats, but I've still improved in other ways. It lets me be really indulgent with detail and pacing in all the manners I was taught to avoid in college, but I'm still always reading "normal" fiction and trying to refine my dialogue and prose as best as I can, even if the nature of the update rate means it will never be as high quality as something published. Now, is it inherently less sophisticated to express your ideas through doorstopper literature, rather than something tighter and more considered? Probably, but I do feel like there's something to be said for fiction that can accompany you regularly over a long period or your life versus something you just consume over a day or two. Often that just amounts to the ability to be an escapist security blanket, but I think there are also feelings that only be provoked if there's time enough for the reader to get develop a longer-term connection to the story and characters. Most of the works people I know cite as having affected them most profoundly are long form and indulgent as gently caress.
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Sep 22, 2023 10:12
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Nettle Soup posted:As something less horrific, I remembered Onward to Providence and started re-reading it and it's just so good. It hasn't updated in two years, but still worth a look if you like weird sci-fi. It's so good I wanna plug it again one last time, because the summary is so bad. I don't even know where I found it originally. The chapter I'm currently reading is from the perspective of a bunch of computers all tied together into one micro-polity; a whole bunch of organisational processes and factions with a weighted exchange system a bit like Disco Elysium but also not like that at all. The spaceship is a big many-eyed chicken which thinks in navigational courses and plots, and Pylo is a big ol' alien who can translate any language almost instantly but can't put a square peg in a square hole. Each chapter also comes with an illustration. I'm playing a Star Wars TTRPG with friends atm, and this is what that system wanted to be. It's not the most grammatically consistant read, but it's very good. The authors fantasy story appears to be here: https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/the-shining-wyrm-original-fantasy-dragon-fiction.121337/ But I haven't looked at it yet, I'm mostly just noting it for myself for later.
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Sep 22, 2023 12:22
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Omi no Kami posted:why the heck would you put so much effort into something without trying to get better at it? Doing something you enjoy is fun while getting better at that thing usually involves a lot of upfront effort spent on less fun things (see playing music, sports, video games). Writing is specifically hard because you can't really interact with something you just wrote as a reader, it has to sit for a while until you've distanced yourself from the writing process. This is in contrast to something like music or sports where you can record yourself and instantly get an outside perspective on your playing to see places you can improve.
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Sep 22, 2023 17:34
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If you're making a living writing what you now realize is trash, there's also probably a bit of concern that changing your writing too much could result in you no longer making a living off it.
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Sep 22, 2023 17:39
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Plorkyeran posted:If you're making a living writing what you now realize is trash, there's also probably a bit of concern that changing your writing too much could result in you no longer making a living off it. Yeah, that's the thing - there are some material incentives to do things that are kinda bad. The easiest path to getting people hooked on a serial is the dopamine hit from progression stuff. If you're skilled enough you can do something good that still has mass appeal, but it's far riskier. I'm kinda worried for Skill Thief's Canvas because it's super good, but I'm not sure if it's the sort of thing that will be successful as a web serial. While it's a "progression" story in the loosest possible sense, its actual structure seems very episodic. And the characters are kinda weird (in a good way - they're super interesting - but I feel like web serial audiences want a cast that they can more directly enjoy, if that makes sense). The author's previous work, Outcast in Another World, was far more "mainstream" in its appeal (and has been pretty successful as a result).
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Sep 22, 2023 22:41
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Isn't "progression" just a "traditional hero's journey arc"?
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Sep 22, 2023 23:04
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Nitrousoxide posted:Isn't "progression" just a "traditional hero's journey arc"? Bilbo is probably better at fighting at the end of LotR than he was at the start, but it's hard to say that this is a major focus of the work.
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Sep 22, 2023 23:08
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Ytlaya posted:Yeah, that's the thing - there are some material incentives to do things that are kinda bad. The easiest path to getting people hooked on a serial is the dopamine hit from progression stuff. If you're skilled enough you can do something good that still has mass appeal, but it's far riskier. i feel like outcast is not really mainstream in its appeal in the sense you're talking about. rob's progression isn't especially interesting or deep, the system is fundamentally arbitrary, the characters are mostly a little off-kilter and weird. it's no delve in terms of laser-focusing on people's number go up brain, that's for sure. i haven't read skill thief because i've kinda cooled off on outcast over the last year or so but it sounds like it has more in common with outcast than not
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Sep 22, 2023 23:14
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Jazerus posted:i feel like outcast is not really mainstream in its appeal in the sense you're talking about. rob's progression isn't especially interesting or deep, the system is fundamentally arbitrary, the characters are mostly a little off-kilter and weird. it's no delve in terms of laser-focusing on people's number go up brain, that's for sure. i haven't read skill thief because i've kinda cooled off on outcast over the last year or so but it sounds like it has more in common with outcast than not Outcast still has routine leveling up/combat and a main "party" (and community in general) that is generally very likable (there's honestly almost no friction in their group beyond a pretty early point, to the extent where it can feel a bit unrealistic at times), at least once he gets past the initial issues he runs into with the elves. There's game-like stats and skills, lots of fighting, and a very clear and direct set of antagonists. Skill Thief has (nothing in these spoiler tags is specifics about the story - just general comments on the main character's ability - which is revealed very early - and the general structure of the story) a guy with an ability that lets him steal other peoples' Talents*, but only if he can acquire a deep understanding of them. So far it's followed a pattern where he encounters various characters and learns about them to facilitate this (but twists to even this premise have already come up). At the point I'm at, there are only two people who could really be called his "party," and one is really loving weird and there's a big mystery about what the gently caress his deal is. It pretty quickly transitions from one "scenario" to the next - even though it's only on chapter 23, it's already been through 4 or 5 "arcs." * the "system" isn't really a normal RPG one - everyone has a "talent" that can have different non-numeric levels (that I think correspond to societal ranks, like Baron/Count/Duke/etc) edit: Regarding Outcast, I think it's been significantly better recently. I feel like it was weak for a long period in the middle, but it's clearly moving towards its climax now. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Sep 23, 2023 |
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Sep 23, 2023 00:26
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Omi no Kami posted:I don't want to say I have a problem with that, because writers are free to do whatever the heck they want and more power to 'em! But I definitely don't understand people who enjoy writing, but don't want to get better. Writing is tremendously time- and planning-intensive, and why the heck would you put so much effort into something without trying to get better at it? Have you looked into webcomics? Some people have been doing them as their sole source of income for twenty plus years and have shown zero improvement in art or story telling.
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Sep 23, 2023 04:14
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Orbis Tertius is so good.quote:She didn't make the rules. She just tacitly held opinions and then found robust justifications in order to make them academically reputable.
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Sep 23, 2023 05:09
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It's absolutely the case in every field that if you practice ineffectively your skills will plateau despite constant practice. Effective study and practice techniques heavily impact learning.
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Sep 23, 2023 05:24
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Oh man. At 82 of the flower that bloomed nowhere and have so many questions. So does everyone have memories of the before times (because everyone is a temporal copy of the 10,000 real humans that survived the collapse in stasis) or is it only arcanists (because they have a grafted soul from one of the trillions of pre collapse humans that were collected by the iron workers at the end of reality)? How many generations ago did the ironworkers start making new people from old people? It's like the collapse and the start of this reality is still in living memory but how much of that is direct firsthand experience and how much of that is bleed through from all this body and soul sharing going on? I'm really digging how everyone is living a really messed up existence but nobody really thinks that because people are concerned with their direct situation like people are. Yeah it's coming together and becoming something very chewy at this point.
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Sep 23, 2023 15:48
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Sibling of TB posted:Oh man. At 82 of the flower that bloomed nowhere and have so many questions. So does everyone have memories of the before times (because everyone is a temporal copy of the 10,000 real humans that survived the collapse in stasis) or is it only arcanists (because they have a grafted soul from one of the trillions of pre collapse humans that were collected by the iron workers at the end of reality)? How many generations ago did the ironworkers start making new people from old people? It's like the collapse and the start of this reality is still in living memory but how much of that is direct firsthand experience and how much of that is bleed through from all this body and soul sharing going on? I'm really digging how everyone is living a really messed up existence but nobody really thinks that because people are concerned with their direct situation like people are. Yeah it's coming together and becoming something very chewy at this point. The slow burn on the setting details is easily one of my favorite things about the story. I love it when a story casually drops terms like “prosopagnostic event” like it’s absolutely nothing, leaves us to figure out what it is from context, and then reveals it as a plot point. This story is a mystery through and through and I can’t stop coming back to it. I’m not sure if you actually want your questions answered, and I don’t know how much has been revealed at this point, but since some of these questions might be coming from a misunderstanding instead of just not having things explained yet, here you go: - Memories of the before times: As a rule, no. New people are genetic clones, not true copies, and when arcanists are inducted, the old pneuma is scrubbed clean before attaching. - Age of the world: The collapse was thousands of years ago. All new people since the very first generation have been clones. - Living memory: All of this knowledge is passed down through generations, but people live for a really long time. I think that the main cast know more than most people, partially due to their level of education but also as a narrative contrivance for exposition’s sake.
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Sep 23, 2023 21:15
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Patrick Spens posted:Orbis Tertius is so good.
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Sep 24, 2023 17:27
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SupSup 89: What a chapter. Sleyca has a real talent for thinking through complicated social and power dynamics and then portraying them convincingly from a specific point of view. I hadn't considered how well that would apply to dumb high school bullshit, but boy does it. What a joy to see a dozen adolescent agendas crashing into each other. It's very interesting also that Alden fugue stated and created a representation of part of his affixation. Like, he can do that? drat. But most of all, I hope Maricel is OK. I really like her and she seems to be having a really rough time.
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Sep 24, 2023 19:51
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SS89: I wonder if Maricel was just feeling homesick  Also lol at the girls ogling Alden's abs. Poor Alden - he's going to end up with a bunch of admirers by simple virtue of "being a teen boy who is both attractive and isn't awkward around the opposite sex."
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Sep 25, 2023 01:50
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SupSup 89: I am a little concerned about the possibility of Alden visiting demon battle area
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Sep 25, 2023 01:57
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OddObserver posted:SupSup 89: I am a little concerned about the possibility of Alden visiting demon battle area SupSup 89: If this were literally any other RR series I would just assume that Alden and co will end up there at the exact time the demon gets summoned and something will go wrong. Considering it is SupSup I give that merely maybe one chance in three.
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Sep 25, 2023 02:22
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SupSup 89 I bet Alden's little origami version of (part) of his affixation is going to show up in the background of a call with Joe or Stuart, and they will notice it. Probably not for a while though.
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Sep 25, 2023 03:55
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Patrick Spens posted:Orbis Tertius is so good. Okay yes, this is good.
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Sep 25, 2023 13:11
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Nettle Soup posted:Okay yes, this is good. Can't say enough about the prose; every chapter has at least one delightful little gem like: "The Court had been built by generations of exceptionally weird architects, and none of them had particularly liked one another." "It was elitism, sure. But it was elitism that benefited her, which made it completely fine." "This was a place full of people who believed the world of themselves, and who the world believed in not at all."
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Sep 25, 2023 20:49
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cyrn posted:Can't say enough about the prose; every chapter has at least one delightful little gem like: i have never heard someone commend a work for good prose and then have such a low bar to qualify
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Sep 25, 2023 22:44
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shades of blue posted:i have never heard someone commend a work for good prose and then have such a low bar to qualify
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Sep 25, 2023 23:03
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shades of blue posted:i have never heard someone commend a work for good prose and then have such a low bar to qualify Welcome to webfiction then I suppose. The bar is so low that it's in hell and somehow people still manage to trip over it. Ice Phisherman fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Sep 25, 2023 |
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Sep 25, 2023 23:37
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shades of blue posted:i have never heard someone commend a work for good prose and then have such a low bar to qualify Obviously prose is subjective, but have you read the genre? There is no bar, so of course I'm going to praise authors who are doing something beyond concrete descriptions and infodump worldbuildling.
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Sep 26, 2023 01:58
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I've seen plenty of bars in web fiction, actually. It's a pretty common setting. What's the best bar scene you've read? IIRC there are a few good ones in the Guide, since Cat used to be a waitress.
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Sep 26, 2023 02:08
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SS89 Astrid rules and I'm worried about Marciel Orbis Tertis: Yeah so things have gotten worse remarkably quickly. Also, I just noticed Carza's other third eye on the cover art, so I'm thinking her chances of avoiding mutation going forward are not so great. Patrick Spens fucked around with this message at 05:12 on Sep 26, 2023 |
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Sep 26, 2023 05:08
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cyrn posted:Obviously prose is subjective, but have you read the genre? There is no bar, so of course I'm going to praise authors who are doing something beyond concrete descriptions and infodump worldbuildling. on the other hand, that semi-ironic 'tee hee' authorial voice isn't exactly, uh, unusual in webfiction either.
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Sep 26, 2023 07:50
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*Popping out of a dumpster like Rita Repulsa* Ah! After a thousand years, time to discuss the quality of webfiction prose!
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Sep 26, 2023 07:58
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Look we only have a few things to discuss in this thread, if it's not terrible authors and their bad views, the length of wandering inn chapters, the quality of webfiction, or the amount of spoilers for what ever new popular story is currently all the rage, what are we left to discuss? Just be thankful this thread doesn't talk about star wars or zack snyder on repeat
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Sep 26, 2023 08:07
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:*Popping out of a dumpster like Rita Repulsa* If by a thousand years, you mean like 2 weeks.
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Sep 26, 2023 09:11
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IMO people should not discuss anything at all here, in the Web Serials thread. Discussing things is weird. Instead, we should all go play Baseball, or perhaps attend Thanksgiving dinner with our families.
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Sep 26, 2023 11:03
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SupSup 89, delayed musings: I'm going to laugh if the real reason Gorgon steered Alden towards LMTYL was as a plot to convince their gremlins they didn't need to be vegan.
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Sep 26, 2023 15:35
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cyrn posted:Can't say enough about the prose; every chapter has at least one delightful little gem like: These probably would've been fine spaced out across multiple chapters but when you put them all in a row like that it makes the source seem like some Whedon-tier obnoxious quipfest.
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Sep 26, 2023 17:36
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Lone Goat posted:These probably would've been fine spaced out across multiple chapters but when you put them all in a row like that it makes the source seem like some Whedon-tier obnoxious quipfest. More like Pratchett-tier, or aspires to be anyway
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Sep 26, 2023 18:11
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The last few chapters of Twinned Destinies have been great. (Major public spoilers) Nice contrast as Ruyi gradually matures into a better person while her body becomes more demonic. Then her world is turned upside down when her friend and link to the commoners is brutally murdered by the guard followed by betrayal from her mother figure. Wonder if she will revert to human form in front of her brother or he will walk away thinking he lost his girlfriend to the humans and his sister to the demons. Could be a big swerve in character after he loses the only two people keeping him grounded.
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Sep 26, 2023 18:35
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Just to be clear, Orbis Tertius is an incredibly violent horror story, I just really like Carza's narrative voice so I quote parts of it and not e.g. crucified prisoners being used as bait for an ambush
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Sep 26, 2023 19:18
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