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I will consider my judo journey a success if I ever score in a competition with yoko wakare.
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Oct 17, 2023 16:52
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Hellblazer187 posted:I will consider my judo journey a success if I ever score in a competition with yoko wakare. Yoko wakare is a hell of a drug. When a friend of mine was a green belt teenager she smoked a black belt with one in a reasonably high profile competition, got praised a lot, and then she started hunting it and it never really worked out for her again.
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Oct 17, 2023 17:22
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I tried it yesterday at the bjj gym and I had it pretty good until at the last moment i realized im basically doing a flat back bump onto tatami on concrete and immediately bailed on the idea mid throw.
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Oct 17, 2023 17:24
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Yoko Wakare is the only take down used by a BJJ gym owner around here. She has good success with it, even in tournaments, and when she asked for tips during a seminar taught by my Judo Sensei, he said she does it beautifully and he has no notes (it's not a throw he really uses). So, a few other people around here, including my BJJ coach, like to use it. But, I find that once it stops surprising you it's really easy to just ride the throw into a top position, and the more comfortable you are with Judo the less it surprises you. Her opponents don't get enough mat time with her to develop that, but when I do stand up with her it just feels like she's forcing a bail out throw into a bottom position.
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Oct 17, 2023 17:29
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Jack B Nimble posted:Yoko Wakare is the only take down used by a BJJ gym owner around here. She has good success with it, even in tournaments, and when she asked for tips during a seminar taught by my Judo Sensei, he said she does it beautifully and he has no notes (it's not a throw he really uses). So, a few other people around here, including my BJJ coach, like to use it. But, I find that once it stops surprising you it's really easy to just ride the throw into a top position, and the more comfortable you are with Judo the less it surprises you. Her opponents don't get enough mat time with her to develop that, but when I do stand up with her it just feels like she's forcing a bail out throw into a bottom position. Yeah, this is pretty much what I've found. When someone goes for it on me, unless they've faked me out somehow, I usually just step over them and sit down into mount. In other judo news, last night we awarded a brown belt to a 17 year old who has been training with us for 10 years. He actually says that he doesn't clearly remember a time without judo in his life. Our decision was along the lines of "well, do you think you could see him being ready for his black belt in 3-4 years? Well... yes, we do, so we might as well give him his brown belt so he can start collecting qualifying points." He's not a regular competitor, but his judo is good, he's a great training partner, and he has started helping to help others to learn judo in a productive way. It just has me reflecting on how many people do these sports and join us for a while, but how few make it so far. He's the first student who I've taken from white to brown, and now he's in position to be the first who I've taken from white to black. I remember when he first showed up in a cohort of new kids who all had names starting with the same letter, confusing the poo poo out of me. Now he's driving himself to practice, helping with the kids class because he has spare time and he enjoys working with the kids, and teaching middle-aged newbies how to do breakfalls. He's a good kid, and I don't know if our influence on him has contributed to that, but I'm really happy for him.
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Oct 17, 2023 17:56
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It's rare to see kids go from training with the kids and then training with the adults when they're old enough, but when they do they're terrifyingly good at it.
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Oct 17, 2023 18:27
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I remember when I got my tkd black belt I was the only kid anyone could remember who had made it from 5 to 18. And no one was coming up behind me either. It wasn't a huge school but still a crazy small %
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Oct 17, 2023 18:54
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Our club has existed since the 70s and I know of one other person for sure who went from training as a little kid to black belt. I started as a little kid but took like 17 years off in the middle before coming back to get the bb. There's one other bb who I know was a youth competitor but idk just how young he was when he started - with him it was likely that he started at 12-13.
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Oct 18, 2023 15:22
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Another thing that's I'm reflecting on here is how many people I meet who used to do judo but who quit at brown without finishing off the BB. I always talk about this one guy who competed heavily as a teen and is so good at judo that I'll hardly be able to take a point off him if I sparred him for hundreds of rounds, but he quit at brown and never finished off the testing to go all the way. Tons of ex judo people who are brown belts. Really strange how many quit on that last lap.
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Oct 18, 2023 16:06
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CommonShore posted:Another thing that's I'm reflecting on here is how many people I meet who used to do judo but who quit at brown without finishing off the BB. I always talk about this one guy who competed heavily as a teen and is so good at judo that I'll hardly be able to take a point off him if I sparred him for hundreds of rounds, but he quit at brown and never finished off the testing to go all the way. Would that be mostly people who are teenagers who get their brown belt then stop training before black? Or would it apply to people who start as adults as well in your experience?
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Oct 18, 2023 16:27
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duckdealer posted:Would that be mostly people who are teenagers who get their brown belt then stop training before black? Or would it apply to people who start as adults as well in your experience? It's mostly teenagers I think, but I can think of at least one adult I know who stopped there, having started in his late 30s.
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Oct 18, 2023 16:36
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From what I understand it's much more rigorous to get the black belt in Judo, right? Like testing and documentation and sending packets off for inspection? In BJJ you just get it one day, when your instructor thinks it's time. Judo it almost sounds like you're trying to get accepted into a college.
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Oct 18, 2023 16:38
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I assume it's the kata testing that gets people stopping at brown belt. Hard to find partners to train for kata, for many people it feels boring, etc.
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Oct 18, 2023 17:03
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Hellblazer187 posted:I assume it's the kata testing that gets people stopping at brown belt. Hard to find partners to train for kata, for many people it feels boring, etc. My school does one form per promotion starting at green then you do all of them toget your black. You can instead once per year get enough wins at tournaments to get promoted. I forgot exactly what its called, bakusatsu, bakugo,baksomething promotion. I have already helped my seniors practice and I can do them as tori pretty easily, however; im naturally quite the chunky boy and even at my best athletic weight helping people do fight camps and eating good and working out every day I was still a 220/230 kinda dude, so finding someone to tori for me, especially for katagaruma will be nearly impossible since all of the guys at my gym are sub 180. Long story short I'm gonna be at nearly every tournament for four years after I get my orange belt and then dissapear because I dislike competing and i'm too fat for kata. 
Defenestrategy fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Oct 18, 2023 |
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Oct 18, 2023 17:16
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Not a fan of katas. Every time I've heard someone talking about finding useful things in katas it sounds like they're bullshitting.
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Oct 18, 2023 19:45
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From an outsider looking in I don't see a useful distinction behind kata and "hey let's drill this sequence" except that the later is whatever real thing you wanna practice and the former is some moribund tradition.
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Oct 18, 2023 20:01
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I used to think Kata was all bullshit, but now that I've actually done a sport that does kata, I believe its use is as a way to keep record of the movement as they should be done in a time before cameras where a thing to keep record of movement. Because if you just write this poo poo down it generally makes no sense and even with cameras until recently it sucks, I have a copy of Kanos Judo and the cameras I think are late 60's and it's really hard to see whats happening.
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Oct 18, 2023 20:24
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It's cool seeing how many universities have little BJJ clubs now.
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Oct 19, 2023 07:38
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Defenestrategy posted:I used to think Kata was all bullshit, but now that I've actually done a sport that does kata, I believe its use is as a way to keep record of the movement as they should be done in a time before cameras where a thing to keep record of movement. Because if you just write this poo poo down it generally makes no sense and even with cameras until recently it sucks, I have a copy of Kanos Judo and the cameras I think are late 60's and it's really hard to see whats happening. That's interesting, because it's so structured and choreographed they can more easily convey and transmit the details of moves, which can then be used in a more alive way in other instances?
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Oct 19, 2023 15:08
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Jack B Nimble posted:That's interesting, because it's so structured and choreographed they can more easily convey and transmit the details of moves, which can then be used in a more alive way in other instances? The important part is its so ritualized and choreogrphed that it makes it easy to pass from generation to generation of practitioners and not have it changed. Using kanos judo for instance it appears that the kata itself hasnt changed since the pictures where taken in 1956, but presumabky hasnt really changed since he formalized his syllabus sometime in the interwar years. Like no one expects you to in combat perform katagaruma as an FU, but the parts are there uke giving forward momentum, tori level changes catching uke with his shoulders, and finishes by wheeling uke off his shoulder, but if you want to teach a bunch of white belt 50 years in rhe future what the major details of katagaruma look like and not have the demonstration change kata is a good way to do it. Like the movementa seem to be designed for the benefit of the viewer. Like if youre gonna teach a bunch of white belts something like a double leg, youre not gonna show them combat speed and technique first, youre going to go slow and exaggerated so that they can actually see and digest whats happening. Defenestrategy fucked around with this message at 15:49 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 15:42
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Jack B Nimble posted:From what I understand it's much more rigorous to get the black belt in Judo, right? Like testing and documentation and sending packets off for inspection? In BJJ you just get it one day, when your instructor thinks it's time. Judo it almost sounds like you're trying to get accepted into a college. Well, you need to qualify via participation and test in front of the regional grading board, which is like the 6-9th degree black belts, and then they send it off to the national grading board who validates the paperwork. Defenestrategy posted:I used to think Kata was all bullshit, but now that I've actually done a sport that does kata, I believe its use is as a way to keep record of the movement as they should be done in a time before cameras where a thing to keep record of movement. Because if you just write this poo poo down it generally makes no sense and even with cameras until recently it sucks, I have a copy of Kanos Judo and the cameras I think are late 60's and it's really hard to see whats happening. Jack B Nimble posted:From an outsider looking in I don't see a useful distinction behind kata and "hey let's drill this sequence" except that the later is whatever real thing you wanna practice and the former is some moribund tradition. Sherbert Hoover posted:Not a fan of katas. Every time I've heard someone talking about finding useful things in katas it sounds like they're bullshitting. Judo partner kata is really good practice. I used to think it was dumb and I begrudged having to learn it for promotion, but now the more I do it, the more I enjoy it. As a second degree black belt, I know two katas pretty well, I've started to learn a third one, and I've played around in a fourth. To me solo striking katas seem like they don't have the same benefits as the cooperative katas of judo. There are a few ways to think of kata and there are different benefits under each light. 1) it's a first-person textbook that you can only fully read while being inside of it. Lots of kata techniques are exaggerated motions and seem a bit strange at first reflection. Here's a great example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZIMRMIDkQU That strike is loving stupid. But it's an exaggeration, and it's not actually about the strike and it's not really a "self defense" move when you interrogate it. When you start to do the technique a few times as kata you can start to realize that it's actually demonstrating someone exposing their armpit. What good is that? Well what do people do when they reach for high grips over the back? Well then, you smugly ask, you just explained it to me, why does it need to be kata and why don't we just drill seoi nage against high grips without all of the dumb bowing and stuff? Well that has to do with the spacing, and the spacing is better explained in the context of the other points. But nearly every time I've spent time looking into something loving stupid in a kata and really thinking about it for a while, I've figured out something about the technique which I start to see in all contexts, up to and including live fighting. Maybe that's just because I'm thinking hard about the techique, so the kata doesn't show things so much as it functions as a mental focal point for education, which is a real pedagogical techinque called a koan. Whether it's a koan or a textbook doesn't matter - it gets me there. 2) it's a predictable but dynamic drill that can be scaled to high intensity. This is really overlooked about kata a lot. Here's a new example. I timestamped it to skip some floof, but 0:34: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSc2xl0aNbI&t=34s Tori puts on the hold, uke tries three escapes, tori does three counters. But it's always the same three escapes, and it's always the same counters. This isn't an assertion that these are the best three escapes, it's just showing three general escape directions (usually frame, shrimp, bridge) and how the hold can be maintained against them. But it's always the same three escapes, and it's always the same counters. That means that uke can go full blast on those three escapes, and tori can go full blast defending them, in a way that's simply not possible with less structured sparring or drilling. These benefits come not just from it being a drill, but it from being Gatame No Kata proper noun. All drilling is fake and structured, we just move that fakeness and structure to different parts of the drill. A kata practice can be as exhausting as an afternoon of rolling or randori, especially when it's just a pure practice and not stopping every few minutes to teach the room the next move. To go full intensity on something requires that the movement be made predictable. You won't be able to do that with just anyone the first time out - it requires practice with the kata and practice with the partner, which is the other point I want to make, which brings together the first and second point. 3) We're workin' brother. If pro wrestling is jazz, infinite variations on the same basic structures, kata is classical music, an execution of a predetermined composition with only minor variations according to the context and performers' attributes. It can be a lot of fun. Uke and Tori are cooperating to make things flow and look good. It takes practice and time to get comfortable with a partner to make things go smooth and to look good and to look (and be) real. Timestamped 4:00. Just grabbed a random championship kata video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r5K3ip_lYw&t=240s That's a real bump, but they're so well practiced that they flow through it. This comfort and repetition will make you a better grappler, so get those reps in. As you get those reps in you'll start to learn more about your own judo. What's the range at which we should start the seoi nage? How far can they swing? How deep can I step? How hard of a bridge can I blast on a kesa gatame? What is my limit on an armbar before I need to consider the tap? An advantage that kata has over just drilling, too, is that we see the kata through. It's easy to say in abstract "I'm gonna do 50 reps of my backstep pass today" but in reality, you're gonna do 8 reps then feel as if you're wasting your partner's time, then your partner will try 5, and then you'll roll. When we do kata because there's a script, and we'll typically at least finish what we set out to do. On top of that, the idea of learning to cooperate with a partner is good practice for reading an opponent's movements and feeling out their timing. Why not just get that from sparring? The point is to do both. I'm not arguing that kata is king - I work in education, and while learning styles are bullshit, multi-modal learning is absolutely not. People typically grasp concepts faster when they experience them in more contexts. Do some kata, then go spar. Then do some more kata. Kano himself said that kata is the grammar of judo, and that you need both kata and randori. If you ever are given the opportunity to do some kata, give it an honest go, and try to do it more than once, and you'll probably be pleasantly surprised. Well, there's my effortpost.
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Oct 19, 2023 16:09
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For me a kata is a pathway to submission in jiu Jitsu. So if I was doing katas with a training partner, he would be an uke while I drill say, a slide by to a rear body lock to a mat return to a back take to a RNC. That is a kata to me. Edit: Basically what Jack said
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Oct 19, 2023 16:16
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Good postin' common shore. I would like you to dissect uki otoshi from kata for me under the first lens, because as far as I can tell doing that move, the way its shown in kata is actually unviable in the way it needs to be done to actually execute in Randori if you're using it to actually practice the move instead of keeping on the tradition of, "Here's a throw that potentially exists". For my knowledge base the only time that move works actually in judo is that if you have forward pressure on uke and uke not only will not retreat but cant retreat due to a wall or boundary so he is forced to push in hard to avoid a ring out or being pinned against a cage, which seems like a huge detail to omit in the kata itself.
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Oct 19, 2023 16:47
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So two points - they actually do change the katas time to time, and this is the technique that I've seen change the most. They fiddle with the footwork. The second point is that nage no kata has a bit of a narrative - the techniques proceed on the assumption that uke is learning from getting thrown, to the extent that in the late sets we can see uke using counter measures (yoko guruma) or tori using misdirection (uki waza). So uki otoshi is the first technique: uke at their dumbest. The weird parts are the tension on uke's elbow on beat 2 and the drop to the knee on beat 3, with some versions having some degree of backward pivot by tori. If we were to do a CGI tracing of the path uke's elbow takes, it would be an arc up and down. What this demonstrates is fundamental kuzushi (and every pushing throw in the whole kata builds on this). If Tori can accept uke's push and then time that tension pull (up and forward) on uke's step and then drop their weight (exaggerated with the knee going down) as uke comes forward, amplified with Tori crossing their arms to add a twisting effect tp ume's torso, uke's stance is broken and uke goes. This is pure kuzushi. I have both hit and been caught by variations of this in randori when there's shoving going on, but usually without dropping the knee. The drop to the knee just underscores the "down" of "pull, then up, then over and down". The unrealistic part of this is the breakfall, to some extent, but it's necessary for practice. Ive heard two different old timers call this the best self defense technique in grappling: just imagine a wall behind Tori and a total disregard for uke having a nice landing and that makes more sense. The specific technical takeaway I've found is that wrist to wrist contact that tori does just before releasing the lape l- lapel hand palm down over sleeve hand palm up. Bring the hands around the body in an arc while doing it. That sub movement transfers to a ton of other pulling throws, particularly sasae. Satisfying?
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Oct 19, 2023 17:26
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It applies to yoko wakare too I realized just after posting.
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Oct 19, 2023 17:27
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Honest and truly write a book/substack on this. I'd buy it.
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Oct 19, 2023 18:09
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Idk if it applies in judo but a lot of those wonky overhand chops in Aiko and jiu jitsu are stand-in for a sword or stick swing.
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Oct 19, 2023 18:31
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Xguard86 posted:Idk if it applies in judo but a lot of those wonky overhand chops in Aiko and jiu jitsu are stand-in for a sword or stick swing. Kanos judo has a seperate thing for sword/stick
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Oct 19, 2023 19:10
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Helio never used a sword. 
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Oct 19, 2023 19:17
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I heard people think BJJ belts are outdated, I simply think we should replace the belt system with getting bladed weapons culminating in replacing black belt with a katana and wakizashi
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Oct 19, 2023 19:52
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Defenestrategy posted:Honest and truly write a book/substack on this. I'd buy it. aw shucks thanks. You know what though, I'll just post for free.
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Oct 19, 2023 20:07
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Kodokan just today released a brand new video about Nage no Kata https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkhBZzE2HpM
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Oct 20, 2023 22:30
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Therea a brown belt getting ready to go for his black and hes been practicing the last few weeks to do the nage no kata as tori and its been wild seeing him get reps with his training partner. Even with a decently forgiving floor and decent break falling I can only assume it feels like rear end to take... what...18 falls in a row repeatedly to practice. Cant imagine what the kata competition dudes feel like.
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Oct 20, 2023 22:54
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Defenestrategy posted:Therea a brown belt getting ready to go for his black and hes been practicing the last few weeks to do the nage no kata as tori and its been wild seeing him get reps with his training partner. Even with a decently forgiving floor and decent break falling I can only assume it feels like rear end to take... what...18 falls in a row repeatedly to practice. Cant imagine what the kata competition dudes feel like. 30! (15 throws, left and right) It's why you get your uke a present/dinner when you pass. But like CommonShore said, they're real falls, but practice benefits uke as well as tori. Except for yoko gake, that fall sucks.
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Oct 21, 2023 17:40
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God drat lads we be cleaning the mats before and after each class ND the staph just won't quit. Is there such a thing as a carrier who is just infecting us all or what? For five years nothing ND suddenly we can't get rid of it, despite hygiene going way up in the same time frame
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Oct 21, 2023 22:47
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flashman posted:God drat lads we be cleaning the mats before and after each class ND the staph just won't quit. Is there such a thing as a carrier who is just infecting us all or what? For five years nothing ND suddenly we can't get rid of it, despite hygiene going way up in the same time frame you might have to lift the mats and clean under and in between
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Oct 21, 2023 23:28
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flashman posted:Is there such a thing as a carrier who is just infecting us all or what? For five years nothing ND suddenly we can't get rid of it, despite hygiene going way up in the same time frame Possible, What's the cleaning protocol look like? For the gym itself: Ideally the mat and ALL training surfaces/supplies should be cleaned and wiped, note I said wiped not lightly misted by a sprayer wand, down with a diluted bleach* solution. Equipment like grappling dummies, heavy bags, and crash mats, pretty much a rub down with a cleaning wipe after the session, the tatami atleast at the end of the day if not between training time blocks.** Also don't do this thing I see where dudes will mist the mat with a sprayer and have someone follow behind with a mop, walking on top of the freshly mopped surface with their dirty feet. Also make sure someone is actually cleaning the Bathroom and Changing areas with regularity. You should also have a deep clean of your mats where you physically lift the tatami up and get all the mat crud[nails, hairs, snot, etc] out from under them, clean the sides and under side of the tatami and put it back. I don't know what a good time table for this is, my gym did this once a year because it was a huge to do, but I've seen gyms that say they do it every six months. For the population: Educate everyone on the problem, tell them that if you have a funky looking wound to not just cover it up and roll, stay off the goddamn mat until its healed. Also wash/wipe down your head gear, knee pads, belts, gis, rash guards, all that poo poo. All this stuff should be kinda obvious, but I wouldn't say it if I didn't see it personally at various gyms. *I've heard bleach can corrode the mats, but I don't think it matters so much unless you have a sprung floor or something and I've never personally seen it/noticed it despite having been at multiple gyms that use a dilute bleach solution. ** Please clean your mats between time blocks. Defenestrategy fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Oct 21, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 23:53
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policing people is the most important part. Look out for people who are wearing dirty gear etc. Make sure everyone knows that wearing any gear for more than one session is forbidden.
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Oct 22, 2023 02:45
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Doing bjj and knee subluxation that I hadnt had so long I had forgotten about it (decade+) happened. It wasnt even from a throw or submission, I literally just stood up in a way to apply a bunch of shearing force to my knee. it doesnt hurt at all but I guess I will baby it and go super light for a few weeks 😔
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Oct 22, 2023 02:56
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Had my first scary knee pop yesterday. Had my opponent in lasso, he passes away from the lasso, so I thought I was gonna get an easy as pie sweep. I tilt my lasso knee down and me and my partner heard a huge pop in the knee, loud enough that my partner got super worried that my knee exploded. I just rolled playing bottom defence the rest of the night, didnt really hurt unless I tried to bridge with that leg as a kickstand. Knees swollen and im getting small amount of pain and intermittent weakness if I walk around on it. Stupid thing is, we werent being dynamic with it, I had the angle where all I needed to do was tilt the knee slightly and he would have flown away from me and ive done the move a million times. Probably go to urgent care if it doesnt feel better by friday see if they can give me a steroid or tell me I really should go to the ortho. Edit: just looked up knee subluxion 
Defenestrategy fucked around with this message at 14:34 on Oct 24, 2023 |
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Oct 24, 2023 14:32
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