|
I said come in! posted:Isnt Bibi the reactionary part of the government himself? He has promised revenge and a high death toll since the start of this. His desire for the genocide of Palestinians has been well documented for years now. Bibi is not even the most insane part of the Israeli govt. His defense minister wanted a pre-emptive strike on Hezbollah, immediately https://twitter.com/RaniaKhalek/status/1715668367565004984
|
# ? Oct 22, 2023 18:20 |
|
|
# ? Jun 8, 2024 07:15 |
|
Shageletic posted:Netanyahu's election in the 90s spelled the death of any real peace process with the Palestinians. He really is the singular force for instability and war crimes in the region. The body count associated with his prime ministerships is staggering. Also it seems like Bibi has the full backing of the entirety of the US political system. Both parties seem to be fully united in carrying out the will of the Zionist government in Israel. https://twitter.com/LucasFoxNews/status/1716115298804261186
|
# ? Oct 22, 2023 18:30 |
|
edit: wrong thread, sorry.
|
# ? Oct 22, 2023 18:34 |
|
Wonder how many of those Hostages Israel has killed in the bombing. Gotta be quite a few right?
|
# ? Oct 22, 2023 18:36 |
|
I don't think they care, tbh. Once I learned about the Hannibal Directive I pretty much wrote all those hostages off.
|
# ? Oct 22, 2023 18:45 |
|
Hamas said that 13 had died in strikes a week ago, yeah. https://www.scmp.com/news/world/middle-east/article/3237849/hamas-says-13-hostages-killed-israel-strikes-gaza Although I've seen it speculated that they're being held in more protected areas like Hamas tunnels and bunkers since they're the only real bargaining chip Hamas has at this point. Like a mass hostage release is probably the only condition under which Israel could plausibly agree to a (temporary) ceasefire and that will be harder to negotiate if half the hostages already died. e: classy av-buy. Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Oct 22, 2023 |
# ? Oct 22, 2023 18:48 |
|
E2M2 posted:Wonder how many of those Hostages Israel has killed in the bombing. Gotta be quite a few right? The only thing I can find in a Google search is from 7 days ago and says 22 hostages according to Hamas https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/israel-hamas-war-gaza-conflict/card/hamas-says-israeli-air-strikes-killed-9-hostages-4oCzhJHit8WsF9vBrfmL So we don't really know right now. What I also find interesting is zero reporting on how many hamas people have been killed so far. I think I've seen one key leader, and maybe six others? Everything has been civilians. But yeah I don't think Israel cares. The death of all 2 million Palestinians is their main goal.
|
# ? Oct 22, 2023 18:48 |
|
That av is pretty hosed up imo. You can ask a mod to blank it for you
|
# ? Oct 22, 2023 18:56 |
|
HonorableTB posted:That av is pretty hosed up imo. You can ask a mod to blank it for you Pretty hosed up? It's genocidal hate speech.
|
# ? Oct 22, 2023 19:30 |
|
Party In My Diapee posted:Pretty hosed up? It's genocidal hate speech. I agree. That's why I said it was pretty hosed up. Whoever bought it should be perma'd
|
# ? Oct 22, 2023 19:40 |
|
In-My-Opinion, the hospital strike gets litigated so much because there is no cover story that can be thrown over it; it didn't demolish a building that they can claim was full of Qassam rockets or Terror Balloons or whatever, going off the ground damage they clearly didn't collapse any secret Hamas Terror Tunnels, they've not even alleged that a rocket was launched from the parking lot (their favorite in the past for demolishing utilities). It's bloody, visceral, and absent any exculpatory path for Israel beyond "wasn't me". Just like shooting Shireen, it's a lightning rod of brutality that persuades Joe Schmoe because it's so evidently unjustifiable. It's also worked in OSINT grifters, who hitched their ride to Israel's argument and need to save face, which keeps it getting talked about as more and more agencies point out how wrong they got it. I said come in! posted:Isnt Bibi the reactionary part of the government himself? He has promised revenge and a high death toll since the start of this. His desire for the genocide of Palestinians has been well documented for years now. I suspect that Israel isn't really reluctant about delaying the ground offensive, because they know it's going to go awful for them. They've: - Not a single good demonstration of their ground forces' competency in at minimum two decades - Hamas is going to have better improvised munitions than during Operation Protective Edge, which was also a shitshow for Israel's ground forces - Hezbollah are transparently waiting for them to invade so they can force a two-front war - Oct 7 + Hezbollah skirmishes have killed or kidnapped a lot of Israel's most experienced soldiers - The Arab states are likely going to be pushed by their people to actually do something about Israel - It doesn't actually change anything, but they've got abysmal public opinion right now, let alone when footage of panicking IDF soldiers firing wildly into hospitals starts circulating online - West Bank is more likely to explode when they invade At the same time, they can't just drag this out; they've tens of thousands of men twiddling on the border, 200,000 Israelis have been evacuated from their homes, Hezbollah is rapidly degrading their border forces with effective attacks, their credit is at risk if this gets prolonged, and sooner or later the convoy at Rafah could go "gently caress this, we're just going to go through" and Israel has to add Egyptian civilians to their kill list. But they also can't back down, because anything less than the removal of Hamas is going to be correctly perceived as a massive loss for Israel, an enormous blow to the concept of Wall-And-Forget colonialism, and a tidal wave of rage from the Israeli public.
|
# ? Oct 22, 2023 19:47 |
|
HonorableTB posted:I don't think they care, tbh. Once I learned about the Hannibal Directive I pretty much wrote all those hostages off. I think the big issue I'm seeing(I never knew this existed, it's awful) is the perpetual Israeli atrocities are basically never covered and it seems like they do whatever the gently caress they want regardless of basically anything, it seems. Yet the majority of people I know with ties to Israel are basically of the mindset that they 100% support Israel unquestionably at all times. Not sure what the answer is when American citizens don't influence policies and clearly international relations are whatever the American diplomats involved want them to be. Seems like a loop of "Israel going to Israel". I haven't seen any of them acknowledge the aid is woefully insufficient.
|
# ? Oct 22, 2023 19:58 |
|
To my point, Israel's allegedly been committing probing attacks into Gaza to figure out just how badly things are going to go if they actually do a full-scale invasion: https://twitter.com/ytirawi/status/1716087643883098285 And the answer appears to be "Pretty bad".
|
# ? Oct 22, 2023 20:12 |
|
It does feel like "Rolling the tanks into Gaza City and loving razing the place" is something the IDF would be ready to do on like, 48 hour's notice, max, so yeah I get the feeling that someone, somewhere high up in Tel Aviv is extremely gun-shy about it. Though I would propose a couple of alternative reasons to Neurolimal's suggestion that they anticipate it'll cost them a lot more than they want to pay: one is that they are in serious back-channel negotiations for hostage releases and are holding off until those conclude one way or the other; two is that regardless of the degree of ground casualties they expect they're willing to sit back and keep hammering the place with air power before they go in. I don't think the latter is actually very likely at all, because I think their anger and machismo is too amped up for it, and my inclination is to think they're trying to work out a hostage deal. Or possibly trying to figure out how to make sure nobody else like Hezbollah or in the West Bank hits them in the flank while they're busy doing their ethnic cleansing in Gaza.
|
# ? Oct 22, 2023 20:12 |
|
Neurolimal posted:To my point, Israel's allegedly been committing probing attacks into Gaza to figure out just how badly things are going to go if they actually do a full-scale invasion: If there is anything I wouldn't trust Hamas on, it's statements like that. Neither would I trust IDF, should they say they actually eliminated 45 Hamas terrorist with no losses in that same probing attack.
|
# ? Oct 22, 2023 20:20 |
|
Neurolimal posted:But they also can't back down, because anything less than the removal of Hamas is going to be correctly perceived as a massive loss for Israel, an enormous blow to the concept of Wall-And-Forget colonialism, and a tidal wave of rage from the Israeli public. What might happen when Israel has to explain to their people that they cannot stop Hamas? Cause we only need to look at the massive failure of the U.S. and our war on terror to know exactly where this is going to go.
|
# ? Oct 22, 2023 20:22 |
|
I said come in! posted:What might happen when Israel has to explain to their people that they cannot stop Hamas? Cause we only need to look at the massive failure of the U.S. and our war on terror to know exactly where this is going to go. Luckily you can just say you did defeat them. Mission accomplished! By the time people figure out they're still active you blame your political rivals or fifth columnists. We would have defeated Hamas if it weren't for these pesky _____!
|
# ? Oct 22, 2023 20:26 |
|
Paladinus posted:If there is anything I wouldn't trust Hamas on, it's statements like that. Neither would I trust IDF, should they say they actually eliminated 45 Hamas terrorist with no losses in that same probing attack. Apparently AJ Arabic is corroborating it: https://twitter.com/AJABreaking/status/1716143495600038048?s=20 Unless this was an entirely different, also failed raid.
|
# ? Oct 22, 2023 20:38 |
|
i mean are they really corroborating it? thats like cnn corroborating an idf report
|
# ? Oct 22, 2023 20:40 |
|
OctaMurk posted:i mean are they really corroborating it? thats like cnn corroborating an idf report Yeah, unlike CNN, Al Jazeera's parent government didn't move two carrier groups into the eastern Mediterranean to ensure the completion of a genocide, so they actually don't have the same sort of compromising connections as most western media sources.
|
# ? Oct 22, 2023 20:44 |
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Nov 5, 2023 |
# ? Oct 22, 2023 20:46 |
|
celadon posted:Yeah, unlike CNN, Al Jazeera's parent government didn't move two carrier groups into the eastern Mediterranean to ensure the completion of a genocide, so they actually don't have the same sort of compromising connections as most western media sources. Al Jazeera is funded by the government sheltering hamas leadership, it's absurd to suggest that they don't have a relevant bias and I say this as someone who thinks people should generally pay more attention to AJ. They've been one of the biggest voices for Palestinians for decades so its absurd to suggest that they are especially neutral or that they are even meant to or trying to be neutral Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Oct 22, 2023 |
# ? Oct 22, 2023 20:46 |
|
Okay, I see that there was a statement by IDF regarding the raid. https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-10-22-23/h_bf4aae725b98b0afa0125cc267deabb4 quote:The raid was carried out earlier today in the area of Kibbutz Kissufim near the Gaza Strip, IDF spokesperson Daniel Hagari said during a video briefing. An anti-tank missile launched toward an IDF tank and an engineering vehicle left one soldier dead, one with moderate injuries, and two with mild injuries, according to Hagari. Considering IDF didn't mention inflicting any losses on the enemy, I suppose it's safe to assume they hadn't, but maybe CNN decided not to quote that part or something.
|
# ? Oct 22, 2023 20:50 |
|
My main source of information during all of this has been Channel 4 News Youtube channel. Their nightly recaps of the last 24 hours has been fantastic. Some of the best reporting on this whole thing that I have seen so far. The main thing I don't like them doing is they keep asking Palestinians to condemn hamas, some of these people being interviewed just suffered horrible loving trauma, and witnessed family and love ones being brutally murdered by Israel. So some of their interviewers could stand to read the room sometimes.
|
# ? Oct 22, 2023 20:51 |
|
Israel is apparently rejecting hostages taken by Hamas. It’s very weird. https://twitter.com/AJEnglish/status/1715840331403722884
|
# ? Oct 22, 2023 20:55 |
|
Al Jazeera is citing the IDF in that tweet. Super weird to be questioning their reporting because of their loyalty to Hamas when the tweet is directly saying the info is from the IDF. Edit: this tweet to be clear Neurolimal posted:Apparently AJ Arabic is corroborating it:
|
# ? Oct 22, 2023 20:55 |
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Nov 5, 2023 |
# ? Oct 22, 2023 21:00 |
|
BUUNNI posted:Israel is apparently rejecting hostages taken by Hamas. It’s very weird. Again, not sure we can trust Hamas on this one, and Israel didn't really confirm it, it looks like. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-says-israel-declined-receive-two-hostages-it-intended-release-2023-10-21/ quote:JERUSALEM, Oct 21 (Reuters) - Israel on Saturday described as "propaganda" a claim by Hamas that the militant group had wanted to release two more hostages on humanitarian grounds but that Israel declined to receive them.
|
# ? Oct 22, 2023 21:08 |
|
Gumball Gumption posted:Al Jazeera is citing the IDF in that tweet. Super weird to be questioning their reporting because of their loyalty to Hamas when the tweet is directly saying the info is from the IDF. It's definitely from the IDF. https://twitter.com/idfonline/status/1716143049691025884 Translation: An IDF soldier was killed, another IDF soldier was moderately wounded, and two other IDF soldiers were lightly wounded by an anti-tank missile fired at a tank and an engineering vehicle during a local operation that took place earlier today in the Gaza Strip territory, around Kisufim. Hong XiuQuan fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Oct 22, 2023 |
# ? Oct 22, 2023 21:15 |
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Nov 5, 2023 |
# ? Oct 22, 2023 21:20 |
|
mannerup posted:Its not a question that Hamas publicly made the statement from their own Telegram account on releasing two specific hostages by name "for compelling humanitarian reasons and without compensation; However, the occupation government refused to receive them". Netanyahu's office called it 'propaganda', interfering that they believe the offer was either not actually made or made in bad faith. It's a classic non-denial denial statement from Netanyahu's office that they didn't accept or entertain the offer. They say they informed some 'Qatari officers'. Has this been confirmed by Qatar at least?
|
# ? Oct 22, 2023 21:28 |
|
celadon posted:Yeah, unlike CNN, Al Jazeera's parent government didn't move two carrier groups into the eastern Mediterranean to ensure the completion of a genocide, so they actually don't have the same sort of compromising connections as most western media sources. I think the real question isn't "do they have biases?" or "do they have ties to somebody who has ties to somebody who has ties to one of the entities in question?", it's "where did they get their information from?". If a news outlet is just repeating a press release from one side or the other, then it's not really corroborating anything. That said, sometimes there isn't going to be any corroboration, and we are going to have to go off just the reports from the IDF and Hamas. It's unlikely that any journalists, civilians, or independent observers were watching this random unannounced cross-border raid. Paladinus posted:Again, not sure we can trust Hamas on this one, and Israel didn't really confirm it, it looks like. Israel isn't confirming it, but they're not really clearly denying it either. Netanyahu just gave a vague statement saying he refuses to engage with propaganda. Which is a stance very different from the one they took a couple of days ago, when the IDF was intensely interested in pushing back against claims that they had been responsible for the hospital bombing. Moreover, statements and leaks from American officials and Israeli commentators tend to paint a picture of an Israeli administration that refuses to negotiate with Hamas or put a hold on war preparations: Here's how it's going over domestically: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/22/pressure-grows-on-israel-to-negotiate-release-of-gaza-hostages quote:CNN reported on Sunday that the Biden administration had pressed Israel to delay the ground assault on Gaza to allow time for the release of more hostages and the delivery of more aid to the besieged enclave. And here's how foreign negotiators see it: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/21/world/middleeast/us-hostages-release-israel-hamas-qatar-raanan.html quote:Shocked by the scale of the attacks, Israel has refused to negotiate with Hamas, several officials said.
|
# ? Oct 22, 2023 21:29 |
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Nov 5, 2023 |
# ? Oct 22, 2023 21:32 |
|
Ramrod Hotshot posted:Bibi is not even the most insane part of the Israeli govt. His defense minister wanted a pre-emptive strike on Hezbollah, immediately Real Imperial Japan war against China and Britain and the US and the USSR all at once hours.
|
# ? Oct 22, 2023 21:41 |
|
Main Paineframe posted:I think the real question isn't "do they have biases?" or "do they have ties to somebody who has ties to somebody who has ties to one of the entities in question?", it's "where did they get their information from?". If a news outlet is just repeating a press release from one side or the other, then it's not really corroborating anything. That is fair, I understand distinguishing between corroboration and stenography, I just don't like rejecting nonwestern sources of news for bias or perceived bias when western media has made a pretty grim track record for itself. https://twitter.com/MayadeenEnglish/status/1716189249819525189 It looks like Al Mayadeen is a real journalistic outpost and I assume the Red Cross/Red Crescent is taken as reliable sourcing. In any case, its nice of Israel to give this hospital a heads up on when the next Hamas rocket is going to misfire. Apparently these warnings have been going on for a couple of days and Israel has denied making those warnings so who can say whats likely to happen now.
|
# ? Oct 22, 2023 21:43 |
|
Main Paineframe posted:
Are these actual families of hostages or are they more of this guy? https://twitter.com/haaretzcom/status/1714329404187300177 (apologies for the twitter link, article is paywalled; I think someone posted the text of it upthread, but thread search is failing me)
|
# ? Oct 22, 2023 21:45 |
|
Israel's attempts at manipulating the public and lying, are extremely transparent and obvious.
|
# ? Oct 22, 2023 21:57 |
|
I said come in! posted:Israel's attempts at manipulating the public and lying, are extremely transparent and obvious. Never let a serious crisis go to waste, or so they say
|
# ? Oct 22, 2023 22:02 |
Al Mayadeen's funding is deliberately and famously obscured. It's based in Lebanon and has historically served as a disinformation proxy. A quick glance at their english language site shows two tracks: mediating RT material and associated proxy material, and a white line of content paraphrased and copied from other press sources, commonly on how America is in decline (sometimes without attribution as "source: News Websites"). This overarching narrative approach is illustrated by the lineup of their "in five" videos is representative. Some review of their media material designed for youtube, telegram and tiktok suggests they're receiving a lot of it from other propaganda platforms or there's a degree of direct coordination there, there's just a ton of cross-pollination with columnists from china daily, CGTN...wow, Bouthaina Shaaban. Channel identification material suggests the english version is targeting our demographic. It's also educational in another respect: I've learned that redstream is the russia-operated left-targeting propaganda successor to redfish; it looks like it's being run through a Turkish media firm now to provide greater deniability, but it's still churning Russian propaganda. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Oct 22, 2023 |
|
# ? Oct 22, 2023 22:13 |
|
|
# ? Jun 8, 2024 07:15 |
|
Zulily Zoetrope posted:Are these actual families of hostages or are they more of this guy? I use archive.is to bypass paywalls. It doesn't work for everything, but it's fine for Haaretz. Here's the article text: quote:Analysis | Netanyahu Is Petrified of the Hostages’ Families. It Could Impact His Judgment For more details on the planted relative, it links to this article: quote:Families of Kidnapped Israelis Meet Netanyahu, Only to Find Unknown Family Boosting PM
|
# ? Oct 22, 2023 22:20 |