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Taear posted:No I know that, I get that's how it works. the loom was designed to destroy all the other timelines in the event that they multiplied too much, spaghettification literally only happened because of that failsafe
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Nov 11, 2023 09:56
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Edit: Yes, as above!Taear posted:No I know that, I get that's how it works. That was, and somebody correct me if I've read this entirely wrong, a direct result of HWR setting up a constant failure state for the looms if his way of doing things wasn't followed? He instilled an artificial order onto the multi-verse that would cause it to fail if that artificial order wasn't contantly maintained, and then Loki replaced that system with one where he sat in place of the Loom holding everything together but letting it expand and grow instead of constantly keeping it pruned like HWR had done. HWR was about constant control to keep things the way he had decided they had to be, but Loki is about allowing everything to grow naturally and let the multiverse be its own organic thing. drat I loved that finale.
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Nov 11, 2023 09:58
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Taear posted:No I know that, I get that's how it works. I thought spaghettification was just a visual indication of a timeline/branch dying. It's not something that occurs naturally, but something caused by the exploding Loom. When Loki rips apart the Loom, the failsafe mechanism still goes off and the floating timeline threads start dying. Inside the timelines, this would be observed as everything turning into spaghetti. Loki then physically grabs and imbues them with his magic, thus keeping them alive.
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Nov 11, 2023 10:03
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TIP posted:the loom was designed to destroy all the other timelines in the event that they multiplied too much, spaghettification literally only happened because of that failsafe I know he told us it was a failsafe, but does that mean if Loki had just left it then a sacred timeline exists again because the loom forced it to? It felt like that's what HWR was saying. It didn't SEEM like that was happening (instead everything was just destroyed straight up) It seems like the loom being destroyed should have made loads of disordered new timelines. Ones that end with a massive Kang War, which is poo poo and bad of course - but them all being dead seemed like it didn't fit the information that we got given. I did also think it was silly that Loki could just stride out. Someone said earlier that he didn't want to go out because he's the only one who isn't being spaghettified and the only hope for what's left which TOTALLY makes sense to me, but why didn't he go the first time? I guess before he didn't have the knowledge that he'd be safe, or maybe he's only safe because he Understands now. BoldFace posted:I thought spaghettification was just a visual indication of a timeline/branch dying. It's not something that occurs naturally, but something caused by the exploding Loom. When Loki rips apart the Loom, the failsafe mechanism still goes off and the floating timeline threads start dying. Inside the timelines, this would be observed as everything turning into spaghetti. Loki then physically grabs and imbues them with his magic, thus keeping them alive. Yes for sure but does this mean there's still a sacred timeline like there should be? Because Loki says it's all over.
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Nov 11, 2023 10:03
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Taear posted:I did also think it was silly that Loki could just stride out. Someone said earlier that he didn't want to go out because he's the only one who isn't being spaghettified and the only hope for what's left which TOTALLY makes sense to me, but why didn't he go the first time? I guess before he didn't have the knowledge that he'd be safe, or maybe he's only safe because he Understands now.[/spoiler] The doors wouldn't open to let them out until they had HWR's temporal aura (through Timely), and when they finally got them open Timely volunteered to go because he and Obie were the only ones who really understood the science behind what was out there. By the end of episode 6, Loki has caught up on understanding the science thanks to multiple reboots and learning from Obie, Timely's temporal aura has turned off the security lock and Loki - now understanding the only two options that HWR has left for them - makes the decision to go out himself instead of Timely because now he can, plus he's found the third option that HWR never considered, and is going out to literally tear the Loom apart rather than try to fix it as he had been up to that point.
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Nov 11, 2023 10:08
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Jerusalem posted:The doors wouldn't open to let them out until they had HWR's temporal aura (through Timely), and when they finally got them open Timely volunteered to go because he and Obie were the only ones who really understood the science behind what was out there. I mean I did just say this about understanding! I'm just theorising. Feel like Loki would have been all for striding out the FIRST time it happened.
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Nov 11, 2023 10:12
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Taear posted:Yes for sure but does this mean there's still a sacred timeline like there should be? Because Loki says it's all over. My interpretation is that it still exists, but it has lost its special status. Now, it's just another strand in the tree-like structure. Loki is letting the timelines branch again, but not as freely as they did prior to the first multiversal war.
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Nov 11, 2023 10:16
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BoldFace posted:My interpretation is that it still exists, but it has lost its special status. Now, it's just another strand in the tree-like structure. Loki is letting the timelines branch again, but not as freely as they did prior to the first multiversal war. No I meant when the Loom gets destroyed. There's not one now 100% certainly, that's the point of what Loki did. It's just one timeline among loads
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Nov 11, 2023 10:22
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Very Pleased with the Loki finale, it feels like the only time any of the MCU stuff has ever even come close to the classic "Cosmic" style of story.
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Nov 11, 2023 10:43
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Taear posted:I'm down with the resolution because it did (as said already) make it feel actually worthwhile that it was Loki instead of anyone else but I still think series 1 was a ton better. This one meandered a lot over stuff that just feels totally irrelevant. It's the Schrodinger's Cat principle, and the cat is Time. The Loom exists outside Time and all Time funnels through it, but it didn't create Time. It's just a means of bringing all the threads of Time together so that any of them that might prevent the "cat" "dying" at the wrong moment to create the Sacred Timeline can be removed.
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Nov 11, 2023 10:47
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Jedit posted:It's the Schrodinger's Cat principle, and the cat is Time. The Loom exists outside Time and all Time funnels through it, but it didn't create Time. It's just a means of bringing all the threads of Time together so that any of them that might prevent the "cat" "dying" at the wrong moment to create the Sacred Timeline can be removed. No I know that, I don't mean that. Before the Loom, when the multiversal war started, why did the universe not get destroyed
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Nov 11, 2023 11:08
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Taear posted:No I know that, I don't mean that. How do you know it didn't?
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Nov 11, 2023 11:58
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Taear posted:No I know that, I don't mean that. I think for a large part, it did destroy the universe. Kangs kept pruning each other's timelines until HWR weaponized Alioth and got the upper hand. After the war, he made it so that only one timeline remains and established the TVA to maintain this. The following is just my speculation, but the most important aspect of the Sacred Timeline is that it's the one where HWR builds the TVA. The Loom was built so that if for some reason the TVA ever stopped doing its job, it would prune all branches from the Sacred Timeline and destroy TVA in the process. Even if the TVA is gone, the Sacred Timeline still exists, and because HWR builds the TVA in the Sacred Timeline, TVA is fated to reappear.
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Nov 11, 2023 12:05
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Yeah, it's good to remember that the timeline is 'Sacred' because calling it that is part of HWR's TVA internal propaganda/mythos building, it's not some inherent cosmic thing. Again, Kangs are just dudes. HWR just built things around himself so that he'd get to sit on top of the hill for all eternity all time, and that is the time-line the TVA existed to safeguard.
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Nov 11, 2023 12:47
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BoldFace posted:I think for a large part, it did destroy the universe. Kangs kept pruning each other's timelines until HWR weaponized Alioth and got the upper hand. After the war, he made it so that only one timeline remains and established the TVA to maintain this. The following is just my speculation, but the most important aspect of the Sacred Timeline is that it's the one where HWR builds the TVA. The Loom was built so that if for some reason the TVA ever stopped doing its job, it would prune all branches from the Sacred Timeline and destroy TVA in the process. Even if the TVA is gone, the Sacred Timeline still exists, and because HWR builds the TVA in the Sacred Timeline, TVA is fated to reappear. Ye this I understand. At the end of time, there's loads of Kangs and it destroys stuff. I get all of that. He builds the TVA and the Loom and because he won he's now the only Kang. Totally fine. But how did we have a multiverse before the loom if without the loom the multiverse dies? Outside of the fights, outside of the catalysmic multiverse ending because of the war, it just dies automatically. What I feel should have happened is that once the loom blows up we should have loads of universes run by Kang and then HWR going "see, told you, idiots"
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Nov 11, 2023 13:48
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Taear posted:But how did we have a multiverse before the loom if without the loom the multiverse dies? Outside of the fights, outside of the catalysmic multiverse ending because of the war, it just dies automatically. Where did you get this idea? The Loom and the TVA are there to prevent Kangs from destroying the multiverse. If Kangs didn't exist, the timelines would be fine and they would not just spontaneously die.
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Nov 11, 2023 13:57
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BoldFace posted:Where did you get this idea? The Loom and the TVA are there to prevent Kangs from destroying the multiverse. If Kangs didn't exist, the timelines would be fine and they would not just spontaneously die. Because that's actively what the show shows us. The timelines are dying when Loki strides out and begins to wind them together. After the loom explodes, the entirety of existence unravels. We get told this by Loki as well when he's talking to Sylvie when he's asking her to not kill HWR "It's all going to end". The Loom can't hold all the timelines because it exists specifically to make a sacred timeline and that's it, no matter what you do. That makes sense. But why does everything dissolve when it is destroyed, because that dissolution doesn't really match what we've been told the problem was before HWR sorted it out by making the sacred timeline.
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Nov 11, 2023 13:59
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random thoughts on unintentionally hilarious fallout from this finale the time stone is green! ... loki now exists at all points of time and always has ... "I have been FALLING for THIRTY MINUTES" ".. oh i'll fuckin' show YOU, strange, get comfy with dormammu there"
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Nov 11, 2023 14:06
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Taear posted:Because that's actively what the show shows us. The timelines are dying when Loki strides out and begins to wind them together. After the loom explodes, the entirety of existence unravels. We get told this by Loki as well when he's talking to Sylvie when he's asking her to not kill HWR "It's all going to end". This is how I understand it. The Loom exploding does NOT dissolve everything. It only dissolves branches that have grown from the sacred timeline and wipes out the TVA. The sacred timeline will still be intact. All the spaghettification we saw in episode 5 was the Loom destroying branched timelines. When Loki says to Sylvie "It's all going to end", he didn't yet know what the purpose of the Loom was or what blowing it up would do. He had only witnessed the TVA getting destroyed and branched timelines getting pruned. Later HWR explains to him that the sacred timeline will not be affected and that the TVA will be rebuilt if it ever got destroyed.
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Nov 11, 2023 14:19
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Taear posted:Because that's actively what the show shows us. The timelines are dying when Loki strides out and begins to wind them together. After the loom explodes, the entirety of existence unravels. We get told this by Loki as well when he's talking to Sylvie when he's asking her to not kill HWR "It's all going to end". The Loom is not a Loom. It is a bomb that HWR planted to blow up all the other timelines if the TVA stopped pruning them. The spaghetti is the Loom doing it’s (inglorious) purpose. It isn’t what was happening before HWR created the Loom.
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Nov 11, 2023 14:24
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Taear posted:Because that's actively what the show shows us. The timelines are dying when Loki strides out and begins to wind them together. After the loom explodes, the entirety of existence unravels. We get told this by Loki as well when he's talking to Sylvie when he's asking her to not kill HWR "It's all going to end". Loki goes out and holds the multiverse together against the destruction of the loom. He's keeping things in a kind of stasis, not against natural entropy, but against the destructive power the loom released when it was destroyed.
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Nov 11, 2023 14:26
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Kinda cool how they riff on Ragnarok with this, with Sylvie kicking it off with a killing that will destroy everything, and Loki ensuring the rebirth portion by weaving everything into a new/ever-present Yggdrasil binding it all together. Crazy that Loki is, ahem, ‘low key’ the most interesting and well developed character in the whole darn Marvel saga at this point.
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Nov 11, 2023 14:58
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Great finale but it probably needed a post-credit:
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Nov 11, 2023 15:08
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still mad that Mobius never really got to ride a jet ski.
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Nov 11, 2023 15:59
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Eiba posted:The loom is what is destroying the timelines. The reveal this episode was that the loom was designed to destroy. All that "scaling problem" stuff was a lie. It's a fail safe to destroy the multiverse- that's it. The multiverse would be fine if it had never been made (except it would be infested with Kangs). I totally get the idea of the loom as the fail safe. What doesn't make sense is that Loki says our choices are the sacred timeline with HWR who he has to stop her killing OR everyone dies forever. No sacred timeline like your explanation says. Do you get me? They say to us "If we do this, the sacred timeline will be reinstated and I don't want the idea of us having no freedom" when Loki is trying to keep Kang alive. And Loki says the alternative is EVERYTHING dies. Because if it's what your explanation says then really Loki's choice didn't require HWR to stay alive at all. It's actively said everything will die. Not just "we'll return to what we had before". Literally everything, gone. I don't see that spagettification we were seeing as JUST the pruned timelines. Especially since most of the time when they were on a branched timeline the message on the screen said it was one, and it was happening when that wasn't on the screen, on the "sacred" timeline.
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Nov 11, 2023 16:23
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Taear posted:What doesn't make sense is that Loki says our choices are the sacred timeline with HWR who he has to stop her killing Loki is still working off the premise at that point that the Loom is a necessity, and that it's design was to keep things from naturally falling out of control. His realization after talking with HWR is that HWR set up the Loom to destroy everything no matter what if he wasn't in charge: the whole setup with Timely was just to give them false hope. That's why HWR chose him as the "back up" for Ms Minutes and Renslayer (note Ms. Minutes making her final message,"You'll never be him" with complete contempt, she knew what HWR was doing). He wanted Loki/the TVA to think there was a way to trick the system into thinking HWR was still there and let them fix things, and when they realized that wasn't going to work Loki would eventually realize he had to either kill Sylvie to save HWR or risk the TVA being wiped out and whatever timeline survived immediately falling into chaotic multiversal war with the various Kangs. When Loki destroys the Loom, all the various timelines (trillions of real lives, as it was put in an earlier episode) that were flowing through the Loom started to die, but the loom isn't the start and finish of time, it's what time was flowing into and out of after being processed. All those timelines die, there's still flow coming "in" (there just isn't a Loom to flow into anymore) and some new timeline will replace it... but all the ones from before will die, a horrible fate for those trillions, while the new branches and splits etc will have all those other Kangs fighting for eventual victory. Except Loki changed all that up by holding the dying timelines poisoned by the Loom together, imbuing them with life from his own magic, and turning the artificial weave of the Loom into the organic growth of the World Tree. He "gave us a chance" as Sylvie put it, everybody gets a chance to live their lives now, for good or bad, the TVA still exists with the purpose of stopping the Kangs, and HWR no longer gets to set the rules on what has to happen.
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Nov 11, 2023 16:53
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I don't know what to tell you. The purpose and the effect of the Loom were really clearly stated in this episode. If Loki was scared that everything was going to be erased, it was because he was wrong and because HWR hadn't explained it to him yet.
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Nov 11, 2023 16:55
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Absolutely loved this season & the finale, even if there were a bunch of times I wasn't sure what was even happening. The fact that this is technically the same company that made Secret Invasion is wild
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Nov 11, 2023 17:05
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BoldFace posted:I don't know what to tell you. The purpose and the effect of the Loom were really clearly stated in this episode. If Loki was scared that everything was going to be erased, it was because he was wrong and because HWR hadn't explained it to him yet. He talks to Sylvie AFTER this though doesn't he? After he gets told that by HWR
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Nov 11, 2023 17:16
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One little aspect I may have missed, forgive me: Did they ever fully explain why Loki was time-slipping to begin with?
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Nov 11, 2023 17:18
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JazzFlight posted:Did they ever fully explain why Loki was time-slipping to begin with? a convenient excuse for hair-flipping
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Nov 11, 2023 17:22
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JazzFlight posted:One little aspect I may have missed, forgive me: HWR did it to him
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Nov 11, 2023 17:29
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Taear posted:He talks to Sylvie AFTER this though doesn't he? None of the characters in this show (except HWR) are part of the Sacred Timeline. They are all variants who will also be destroyed because they don't belong in the timeline (and they can't stay in the TVA because it is gone too). Loki may be simplifying the explanation for Sylvie but the fact is that the Sacred Timeline without the TVA isn't a solution for them. Zero One fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Nov 11, 2023 |
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Nov 11, 2023 17:29
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JazzFlight posted:One little aspect I may have missed, forgive me: I thought HWR implied it was him who did that to loki somehow. Another failsafe and why he said "see you soon" last season. Also, are we to assume that this isn't the first time this had happened since the TVA was at the end of time with renslayer? What was that about?
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Nov 11, 2023 17:32
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Zero One posted:None of the characters in this show (except HWR) are part of the Sacred Timeline. They are all variants who will also be destroyed because they don't belong in the timeline (and they can't stay in the TVA because it is gone too). I mean he says "Either we have the sacred timeline or we all die" and she says "Actually, smash it all up"
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Nov 11, 2023 17:39
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Taear posted:He talks to Sylvie AFTER this though doesn't he? I think you're misunderstanding what he's saying. He's saying that if the Sacred Timeline isn't preserved, then the Kangs will start another multiversal war and everything burns to the ground. This is what HWR already told them in season 1. Sylvie says that she'd rather take her chances surviving the multiversal war, than being forced to live on the Sacred Timeline. 
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Nov 11, 2023 17:40
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Optimus_Rhyme posted:I thought HWR implied it was him who did that to loki somehow. Another failsafe and why he said "see you soon" last season.
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Nov 11, 2023 17:41
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I may have missed it, but do we know what happened to Victor Timely? I don't remember seeing him in the "After." epilogue.
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Nov 11, 2023 18:06
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Hobo Clown posted:I may have missed it, but do we know what happened to Victor Timely? I don't remember seeing him in the "After." epilogue. We don't see that version of him but we do see him as a child in Chicago doing science experiments
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Nov 11, 2023 18:07
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The impression I get with Timely is that he probably no longer exists as the same version, because we see that in the 'new reality' post-Loom that nobody dumps the TVA handbook into the window where he is as a child.
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Nov 11, 2023 18:12
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