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Ok so how it works: Company X, in this case a company registered in the Isle of Man, buys a ship. They register it somewhere, in this case the Bahamas. Not my first choice, but heh, perfectly fine flag state. Company X doesn’t want to deal with the business of actually running the ship, so they bareboat charters it to Company Y, also an Isle of Man company with the same mailing address as company X. This makes company Y the disponent or beneficial owner. Company X is basically just a shield / liability cut out, so you can forget it exists. Company Y then hires company Z to do the technical management of the ship - hiring a crew, doing repairs, etc. This is the company the poor saps onboard work for. In this case, Z is based in Greece, but this doesn’t mean that’s where the crew is from. (They might also work exclusively for Y and it’s parents company but that doesn’t make a difference really). Now the PCTC market is mostly a liner trade, this means the customers want long term, scheduled regular routes. So you’ve got some big names in those spaces and they have most of the business, and in order to get in there, Y charters the boat to one of them, in this case company W out of Japan. W pays them for use of the boat by the day, pays for the fuel, and goes on to sell space onboard to whoever needs to move cars and poo poo between Turkey and India. That’s the commercial arrangement. Insurance wise, there’s three types of insurance at play: cargo coverage (if anything happens to the cargo underway) is usually the shipper’s problem, or the liner operator. Anyway it’s either W or their customers. Hull and Machinery - damage to the boat - is the disponent owner’s problem, so Y pays for that. P&I or protection and indemnity is basically liability coverage, both Y and W would have a policy, but most of it is going to be on Y. Kidnap and ransom and other piracy coverage falls on Y, they would have gotten it because that area is on the Joint War List. They might have reinvoiced W for It, dépends on the charter. Long story short? The owners of the ship is covered, the cargo owners are SOL and no one cares about the crew. Y and X (and maybe Z) may have Israeli shareholders, but lol, lmao, the time charter clock is still running so they’re not losing a dime in this mess. Maybe their insurance deductible. I’m sure their thoughts and prayers go out to the crew’s fam ahahahaa sorry I can’t. Al-Saqr posted:houthis announce that many of the crew aboard the ship they captured were Israelis using dual passports, which is a common practice for israelis because theyre all colonialists. That’s a really surprising claim, and I’m very doubtful about it. Boat’s FOC’d to hell and back, it’d be very weird to have people from a developed country onboard.
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Nov 20, 2023 06:51
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Al-Saqr posted:houthis announce that many of the crew aboard the ship they captured were Israelis using dual passports, which is a common practice for israelis because theyre all colonialists. This read more like trolling to me. When the IDF says they bombed a bunch of non-combatants, but actually the IDF claims they were double secret agents of Hamas, this reads like the same kind of claim out of the Houthis, not like they actually found that a bunch of secret Israelis were working as deckhands. You have been biting on some questionable sourcing. Like did you ever come back with where you heard that there were 56 crew on board the ship?
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Nov 20, 2023 06:55
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mlmp08 posted:
I post what i see on twitter its up to you to decide whether you want to believe it or not, if you want i can stop updating the thread with what i find. I read on twitter it was 56 but its looking like it was 22, so maybe i was wrong and i will only post reputable sources like Aljazeera instead of wierd pro iran twitter.
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Nov 20, 2023 07:04
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Al-Saqr posted:I post what i see on twitter its up to you to decide whether you want to believe it or not, if you want i can stop updating the thread with what i find. I read on twitter it was 56 but its looking like it was 22, so maybe i was wrong and i will only post reputable sources like Aljazeera instead of wierd pro iran twitter. Breathlessly reposting random bullshit you see on Twitter is quite possibly the least helpful thing any human being can do.
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Nov 20, 2023 07:08
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Acebuckeye13 posted:Breathlessly reposting random bullshit you see on Twitter is quite possibly the least helpful thing any human being can do. Ok i will only post aljazeera from here on out 👍
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Nov 20, 2023 07:11
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Al-Saqr posted:if you want i can stop updating the thread with what i find. Considering you have 50 pages of C-SPAM posts praising Hamas, that would be great.
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Nov 20, 2023 07:38
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knox_harrington posted:Considering you have 50 pages of C-SPAM posts praising Hamas, that would be great. I am being considerate with where i post, over here i post news without comment. I thought updating you guys with news of whats happening in this thread without injecting my personal and objectively correct opinions would be interesting since you guys are military heads so you would bring a new insight into the military aspect of the war. Since theres alot of unprecendent stuff happening militarily (gliders, hand-placed ATGM, urban warfare, etc) and im interested in hearing peoples thoughts on them from various angles. Since i know you guys dont share my views im not coming in here swinging about how awesome hamas and the palestinian resistance is, and im not trying to make a case for a side one way or the other because im being respectful to this subforum. Anyways, i wont post here anymore news or what i find if that makes you feel better. Al-Saqr fucked around with this message at 07:46 on Nov 20, 2023 |
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Nov 20, 2023 07:44
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It is genuinely interesting how the shipping industry has optimised against integration to the point where almost every bit of the process is run by a separate and distinct company if at all possible. e: the open enthusiasm for random violence as long as there is a possibility that someone connected to Israel might be affected and then handwaving when that turns out not to be the case has been a bit mask off for some people (particularly when it has been a bit inconsistent with their views on other recent conflicts) Alchenar fucked around with this message at 08:11 on Nov 20, 2023 |
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Nov 20, 2023 07:58
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Al-Saqr posted:Ok i will only post aljazeera from here on out 👍 Unironically Al Jazeera is usually a pretty solid news source, though my God they seem to have weaponized bad editorials a lot of the time.
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Nov 20, 2023 10:46
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PurpleXVI posted:Unironically Al Jazeera is usually a pretty solid news source, though my God they seem to have weaponized bad editorials a lot of the time. :looks at legacy American media: I LEARNED IT FROM YOU
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Nov 20, 2023 14:21
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Reuters via Gcaptain - https://gcaptain.com/israel-reports-houthi-forces-seized-two-cargo-ships-in-the-red-sea/quote:Japan’s Nikkei newspaper reported there were 22 crew on board including Bulgarians and Filipinos but no Japanese nationals. quote:Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s office said a ship – which it did not name – had been seized. There were no Israelis aboard and Israel was not involved in its ownership or operation, his office said. That’s a half truth, because I’m pretty sure some of the beneficial ownership is in Israel, but heh, legally speaking he may not be wrong.
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Nov 20, 2023 14:30
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FrozenVent posted:Ok so how it works: Very informative post, thanks for this. It reminds me a bit of how US commercial real estate works in terms of the complete division of ownership vs. management vs. tenants. General follow-up question: if this were a US-flagged vessel, I'm assuming it would have prompted the US navy (which currently has some ships in the Red Sea) to respond, particularly since the Houthis aren't considered the legitimate government of Yemen by the US and its allies in the region. Is it fair to say, then, that one of the drawbacks of using a flag of convenience is that you're basically on your own if someone decides to hijack your ship (in the sense that most countries with this scheme barely have coast guards, let alone navies)?
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Nov 20, 2023 14:49
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nothing like indiscriminate hostility to spice up a conflictGroovelord Neato posted:It was inevitable but Israel's official line is everyone is Hamas.
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Nov 20, 2023 14:54
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psydude posted:Very informative post, thanks for this. It reminds me a bit of how US commercial real estate works in terms of the complete division of ownership vs. management vs. tenants. US flagged independent international shipping is a thing that basically doesn't exist. If you see a US ship working in international waters, it's going to be USN, USNS, part of some oceanographic agency, or working a USN contract. So unless a hijacker manages to somehow find the rare unicorn that isn't under that category, yeah, you can bet there's going to be a meaningful armed response from the US if one of our flagged ships gets attacked. Furthermore, DOD has identified the lack of US flagged international shipping as a strategic vulnerability. It would be in the Navy's best interest to safeguard what little we have left.
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Nov 20, 2023 15:04
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psydude posted:Is it fair to say, then, that one of the drawbacks of using a flag of convenience is that you're basically on your own if someone decides to hijack your ship (in the sense that most countries with this scheme barely have coast guards, let alone navies)? Yes, theoretically, but it doesn’t happen very often and you have insurance anyway so… the calculus still works out in favour of the FOC. The Maersk Alabama was an outlier, and there’s still a part of me that thinks it was where it was on its own on purpose to motivate / justify US intervention in the Somalian piracy situation. Because while I understand the political silliness of the USAID food program… it’s an impressive gently caress up.
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Nov 20, 2023 15:19
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FrozenVent posted:Yes, theoretically, but it doesn’t happen very often and you have insurance anyway so… the calculus still works out in favour of the FOC. Alabama had low free board and was slow and they didn't carry a security team. She was on a triangle from Somalia to like Sri Lanka and Djibouti or somewhere else I think because someone needs to supply all the small rear end bases or run food aid. She was also an MSP vessel chartered from Maersk to Waterman/Central Gulf, now Seabulk, and there's government cargo preference and poo poo, so they were doing a profitable government run but there isn't enough cargo for two vessels. She had a reason to be there, had been making the run for awhile, was a sitting duck, Phillips is an idiot and a trash captain. As far as US assets in the area, they would have responded to these attacks. Attacks on US assets are just more visible because they are rarer and its the US. When an attack happens, friendly navy's have to be close enough to respond. Range on a helicopter is only like 200 miles which is nothing. So the US Navy will respond to other flags if they are in range and can get there in time.
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Nov 20, 2023 15:35
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psydude posted:Very informative post, thanks for this. It reminds me a bit of how US commercial real estate works in terms of the complete division of ownership vs. management vs. tenants. The US Navy actually already handles the majority of the worlds anti-piracy operations, because its in US capital's interest to promote trade, as a lot of the global trade money eventually ends up in the hand of US companies. Everyone is well aware that flags of convivence mean nothing and that some senator's donor is probably making $100k/day on that Bahama's flag.
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Nov 20, 2023 16:48
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Nobody’s making $100k a day on an FOC, these days capesizes are going for $23k/pd and everything else is going 13-18k/pd depending on region. Tankers may or may not be going for more at any given time, but the wet market is a weird loving thing. (Yeah the margins are tiny, hence why there’s questionable decision making at times)
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Nov 20, 2023 17:31
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lightpole posted:Alabama had low free board and was slow and they didn't carry a security team. She was on a triangle from Somalia to like Sri Lanka and Djibouti or somewhere else I think because someone needs to supply all the small rear end bases or run food aid. She was also an MSP vessel chartered from Maersk to Waterman/Central Gulf, now Seabulk, and there's government cargo preference and poo poo, so they were doing a profitable government run but there isn't enough cargo for two vessels. She had a reason to be there, had been making the run for awhile, was a sitting duck, Phillips is an idiot and a trash captain. Plus, USN was already there - that was right at the spinup of Somali piracy response, which got really weird and interesting. There was a UNSC resolution in 2009 that caused the creation of an international contact group, which led to a bunch of collective and independent deployments from different entities. You had at one point deployments from the EU, NATO, China, Russia, India, and Indonesia all operating in the same waters but for political reasons theoretically barred from active joint planning. The whole story of the Contact Group on Piracy off the Coast of Somalia is interesting from a political standpoint, because nobody involved really cared al that much about piracy except the shipping businesses. Everybody wanted to fix it, sure, but all the different entities involved had some ulterior motives that were blatantly obvious in their behavior - the EU External Action Service wanted to show that it could do big boy stuff, China wanted to extend operational experience, NATO members mostly wanted to improve Somali stability so that refugees would stop heading north, etc. Despite that, they mostly solved Somali piracy through an actually decent set of strategies involving hardening vessels with private security, improving law enforcement within Somalia and the region, naval presence, and development in the region.
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Nov 20, 2023 17:34
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Notahippie posted:The whole story of the Contact Group on Piracy off the Coast of Somalia is interesting from a political standpoint, because nobody involved really cared al that much about piracy except the shipping businesses. We didn’t care all that much, for what it’s worth. We have insurance. Also a fact I forgot to mention, that I think adds quite a bit of context and flavour to my previous effort post - the ship has Company W’s logo painted on the side.
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Nov 20, 2023 17:50
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FrozenVent posted:We didn’t care all that much, for what it’s worth. We have insurance. The manning & crewing agencies and the unions were putting a lot of pressure on the IMO in the late 2000s to get something done, and the shipowners associations were jumping in too because insurance rates in the high-risk area were starting to spike. The insurance companies were absolutely making bank off of pirates, though, even with the payouts - although Lloyds absolutely refused to admit that.
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Nov 20, 2023 18:41
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https://twitter.com/AoR3138/status/1726641498211709233 boat video
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Nov 20, 2023 19:07
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lol she’s in ballast, there’s no cargo onboard. The schedule’s already knackered so the charterer is going to be very low on fucks to give already. The owner’s going to be annoyed because they can’t just cash out the H&M but they probably have loss of hire coverage so… Oh yeah, the crew’s hosed. Someone should do something about the crew.
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Nov 20, 2023 19:31
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lol pirating a hired out empty ship in order to own the jews e: I'm reasonably hopeful the crew will be fine (albeit in the 'enforced longer than usual tour' kind of way). This was a pretty professional seizure and there's no reason to mistreat them. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Nov 20, 2023 |
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Nov 20, 2023 19:52
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Yeah this seems like a nothing burger unless you're a member of the crew (or their family most likley back in the Philippines, India, Ukraine, etc depending on their pay getting sent home - which is probably stopped) If you want a depressing read on how hosed these guys could be, look up the poor Syrian guy who got stuck alone on the MV Aman for 4 years when the ship owner abandoned him in Egypt
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Nov 20, 2023 19:58
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Discussion Quorum posted:Yeah this seems like a nothing burger unless you're a member of the crew (or their family most likley back in the Philippines, India, Ukraine, etc depending on their pay getting sent home - which is probably stopped) Pay doesn’t stop while being held in a hijacking, unless the ship manager goes under for whatever reason. quote:If you want a depressing read on how hosed these guys could be, look up the poor Syrian guy who got stuck alone on the MV Aman for 4 years when the ship owner abandoned him in Egypt Completely different situation, the guy’s employer had gone bankrupt and the Egyptian government wouldn’t let him leave.
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Nov 20, 2023 20:04
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brave dudes taking an unarmed, empty, civilian ship
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Nov 20, 2023 20:05
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When you seize a ship flying the Nassau flag and there's not even any rum or molasses on board
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Nov 20, 2023 20:08
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FrozenVent posted:Pay doesn’t stop while being held in a hijacking, unless the ship manager goes under for whatever reason. Yeah but I figure your ability to send it home is interrupted, although I guess that depends on the specific setup the crew and/or company is using.
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Nov 20, 2023 20:42
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pmchem posted:brave dudes taking an unarmed, empty, civilian ship Almost as brave as the IDF bombing hospitals and apartments! Gotta start somewhere.
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Nov 20, 2023 20:50
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pmchem posted:brave dudes taking an unarmed, empty, civilian ship Yeah but they had a helicopter so that’s cool right?
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Nov 20, 2023 20:51
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Alchenar posted:When you seize a ship flying the Nassau flag and there's not even any rum or molasses on board Let's hope that they weren't looking for the third leg of the triangle.
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Nov 20, 2023 20:54
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Luceid posted:Almost as brave as the IDF bombing hospitals and apartments! Gotta start somewhere. hell its a more complex operation than the IDF appears to be able to do and they didn't manage to murder a shitton of people along the way
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Nov 20, 2023 21:02
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gip actually stands for Goons in Pontoons
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Nov 20, 2023 21:39
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Discussion Quorum posted:Yeah but I figure your ability to send it home is interrupted, although I guess that depends on the specific setup the crew and/or company is using. You’d normally have it set up as direct deposits, the company payroll folks should be in contact with the family if there’s any issue.
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Nov 20, 2023 21:52
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I'm pretty impressed with their actions on the objective.
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Nov 20, 2023 22:03
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A.o.D. posted:US flagged independent international shipping is a thing that basically doesn't exist. If you see a US ship working in international waters, it's going to be USN, USNS, part of some oceanographic agency, or working a USN contract. So unless a hijacker manages to somehow find the rare unicorn that isn't under that category, yeah, you can bet there's going to be a meaningful armed response from the US if one of our flagged ships gets attacked. I can just imagine a pirate takeover of an NOAA ship. "Yeah, whatever. We're kinda busy here. Y'all gonna help out?!" "Look at me! I'm in charge now." "Sure. Here's the working schedule. Have fun. I'll be on deck if you need anything."
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Nov 21, 2023 04:13
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https://twitter.com/Seamus_Malek/status/1726970021744984282quote:Israel's Minister of Communications calls on the IDF to cut off the foreskins of Hamas fighters as revenge, as David did with the Philistines in the Tanakh. https://twitter.com/shlomo_karhi/status/1725504217148797065 According to Google Translate, this appears to be a correct translation, though I couldn't tell you how good Google Translate is at dealing with Hebrew, I imagine it isn't bad enough to make that up. quote:David added a hundred Philistine foreskins as revenge for plugging the wells with dirt. Our fighters, who went to war for the house and to take revenge for the terrible massacre carried out by the Nazi terrorists, will cover them in their tunnels with dirt, and will return to peace with the abductees in AZ, only after they have cut off all these cursed foreskins. I believe that unless someone hijacked his account or something, this calls for a great big "what the gently caress."
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Nov 21, 2023 21:33
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I’m not an expert on local practices, but why would one think that they’re not circumcised already? I mean besides the guy being a monster and an idiot. quote:Male circumcision is widespread in the Muslim world,[3] and accepted as an established practice by all Islamic schools of jurisprudence.[2][4][5] It is considered a sign of belonging to the wider Muslim community (Ummah).[6]
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Nov 21, 2023 21:44
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Platystemon posted:I’m not an expert on local practices, but why would one think that they’re not circumcised already? Honestly I wanted someone else to have fun with that one because I was too flabbergasted to come up with a joke about it.
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Nov 21, 2023 21:47
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