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Shageletic posted:Yeah the show sometimes has good ideas but it's execution has usually just left me befuddled and left wondering at the showrunner's choices. Like Perrin's and Egwene's escape frim Valda for example. This, pretty much
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Dec 5, 2023 20:04
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nine-gear crow posted:Also bringing Valda forward from the later books and making him a big threat in the place of Dain was a good choice too. Book Dain is a huge prick in TEOW, so if you want him to be a sympathetic character on his hero-villain-hero journey, you can't have him acting like he does in Book 1, so bringing Valda in to be the heavy instead was an inspired choice. They can’t do anything like the book arc for TV Dain anymore (or at least should not try to) because he’s now actually correct about everything because Perrin hacked his father to death in front of him.
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Dec 5, 2023 20:48
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Pleads posted:They can’t do anything like the book arc for TV Dain anymore (or at least should not try to) because he’s now actually correct about everything because Perrin hacked his father to death in front of him. I like that change. It makes the stakes higher and more compelling than "angry teenager (or young adult) randomly guessing the cause of his father's death." It also makes the whitecloaks actions at the battle of two rivers more interesting.
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Dec 5, 2023 21:12
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BigHead posted:I like that change. It makes the stakes higher and more compelling than "angry teenager (or young adult) randomly guessing the cause of his father's death." It also makes the whitecloaks actions at the battle of two rivers more interesting. It wasn't really random guessing. It was Byar lying.
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Dec 5, 2023 21:25
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BigHead posted:I like that change. It makes the stakes higher and more compelling than "angry teenager (or young adult) randomly guessing the cause of his father's death." It also makes the whitecloaks actions at the battle of two rivers more interesting. It's gonna make the trial more interesting too. Morgase: Perrin Aybara, did you kill that old fashy bastard? Perrin: Yes. Morgase: Oh. ....poo poo.
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Dec 5, 2023 22:20
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nine-gear crow posted:It's gonna make the trial more interesting too. I mean, it's really no different than the existing trial, it's just who he killed is different.
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Dec 5, 2023 22:22
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:I mean, it's really no different than the existing trial, it's just who he killed is different. Yea, the setup was even the same. Valda was trying to kill Perrin, Hopper saved him, a white cloak killed hopper, Perrin wolfs out and kills the whitecloak.
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Dec 5, 2023 22:27
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If anything it makes Dain forgiving Perrin carry more weight, assuming they go with that angle.
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Dec 5, 2023 22:36
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:If anything it makes Dain forgiving Perrin carry more weight, assuming they go with that angle. Hopefully. The scenes with Dain in Atuan's Mill were some of the best stuff Perrin had in Season 2. Both actors really made you feel like there could be a strong friendship between the characters, so hopefully they don't make Dain go full evil.
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Dec 5, 2023 22:47
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Dain has no reason to forgive Perrin though because he for real did it this time! I bet they have Dain kill Perrin’s family now instead of Fain.
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Dec 5, 2023 22:50
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Pleads posted:Dain has no reason to forgive Perrin though because he for real did it this time! That's, uh, exactly what forgiveness is.
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Dec 5, 2023 22:59
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Ok replace forgive with “stop blaming”
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Dec 5, 2023 23:11
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I dunno, I think it still loses some amount of weight when you change Byar telling lies to drive the Children vs. Perrin plot to Byar telling the truth. Like, one of the points of the whole resolution of that plot is that the Whitecloaks should be on the good guys' side, but they're not because of the combination of prejudice AND people like Byar. If the latter isn't a thing, they're just kinda another group of fascists and that's less interesting. "Perrin killed a Whitecloak" means that superficially the plot can continue, but even if the notes are the same it's mostly actually an entirely different plot. I guess maybe that's fine? 
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Dec 5, 2023 23:39
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They also say he's a darkfriend who did kill white cloaks so it's a real minor change in the long run.
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Dec 6, 2023 00:50
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War Byar even consciously lying? I thought he just believed wholeheartedly that Geofram died because Perrin warned the Seanchan/"betrayed him" so he was telling the truth as he saw it. Like oh so very many other characters.
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Dec 6, 2023 00:52
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silvergoose posted:War Byar even consciously lying? I thought he just believed wholeheartedly that Geofram died because Perrin warned the Seanchan/"betrayed him" so he was telling the truth as he saw it. Byar was lying on purpose. When he reports to Nial he says he didn't actually see Perrin kill Bornhold in person, but explains that it had to be him. He isn't really believed. Next we see him specifically omitting that part because he learned his lesson.
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Dec 6, 2023 07:14
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nine-gear crow posted:It's gonna make the trial more interesting too. They're gonna have to drop the whole trial, or massively rework it anyways. Morgase could make the decision she did because in the book technically Perrin killed Whitecloaks inside Andor. The same thing might be doable using some overarching treaty all the nations follow regarding mercenaries, but that seems kind of iffy considering the state of the world even prior to all the chaos starting up.
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Dec 6, 2023 07:23
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seaborgium posted:They're gonna have to drop the whole trial, or massively rework it anyways. Morgase could make the decision she did because in the book technically Perrin killed Whitecloaks inside Andor. The same thing might be doable using some overarching treaty all the nations follow regarding mercenaries, but that seems kind of iffy considering the state of the world even prior to all the chaos starting up. Can't wait for the next trial for the Whitecloaks he killed outside Andor.
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Dec 6, 2023 08:13
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So cheesy but so good: "the world shall scream in the pain of salvation" (end of The Shadow Rising). The show has not given enough time, I think, to why Rand might not want to be the Dragon Reborn. My recollection of the show is that so far the only issue Rand faces as the prophesied hero of light is that he can’t channel without eventually going mad (and that the Forsaken have a vast knowledge advantage over him, but that’s pretty typical in fantasy). I don’t remember any of the other stuff about how the world will "weep for its salvation". I hope we see more of this in season 3, because drat if the first books don’t make it extremely clear that—even though the world is on a downward slope and the forces of the Shadow are slowly grinding out a victory—it is bad news that the Dragon is reborn. Grundulum fucked around with this message at 07:48 on Dec 7, 2023 |
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Dec 7, 2023 07:44
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The show, being a show, really could stand to have shown some speculative or flashback type scenes showing the world collapsing in ruin and millions of people dying and such like that.
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Dec 7, 2023 11:27
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Yeah, like some sort of scene before the story where we see how bad things could go for a Dragon that doesn't succeed. I'm still salty the series didn't open with Dragonmount. I know that it's a relatively divisive prologue, but I've always thought that it was the perfect opener in terms of setting the stakes and throwing you in the deep end of the setting.
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Dec 7, 2023 14:09
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Tangentially — a thing I've been thinking about that I find a little bit immersion-breaking about the conceit of the book is that it spends a lot of time talking about geographical and geological features that could only have been created over millions of years, like the Waste which is described as being basically Monument Valley/Zion, with pillars and buttes and arches that would have been the result of long slow processes of erosion. They couldn't really have formed that way through a single sudden cataclysm. The Breaking is described as something that changed coastlines, raised up mountains, created volcanoes, all that kind of thing—but it only happened 3000-ish years ago. What you're going to have is a world that looks like the Big Island of Hawaii, not Monument Valley. Moonscapes, lava fields, sharp-edged escarpments and giant gaping gashes in the earth. Not gently sloping hills and picturesque river valleys, especially not deep river-carved canyons in sandstone. 3000 years isn't enough time to wear away buildings in a lot of places in our world, let alone the bedrock on which they're built. Like yeah okay there's the "all sorts of extremely unlikely stuff happened, dude was like a living Infinite Improbability Drive" thing, so maybe the Waste just happened to flip upside down like a pancake and land in exactly the shapes you'd see in a John Ford movie. But the narrative does go to pains to describe the world in naturalistic terms and anything we would find unnatural it finds unnatural too, so I'm not really buying that. Or maybe the Waste predates the Breaking and never really changed that much? Hard to believe those delicate arches wouldn't have fallen.
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Dec 7, 2023 14:30
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Data Graham posted:Tangentially — a thing I've been thinking about that I find a little bit immersion-breaking about the conceit of the book is that it spends a lot of time talking about geographical and geological features that could only have been created over millions of years, like the Waste which is described as being basically Monument Valley/Zion, with pillars and buttes and arches that would have been the result of long slow processes of erosion. They couldn't really have formed that way through a single sudden cataclysm. I mean, the cyclical nature of their world should have hosed up our age's paleontology and geology sciences too.
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Dec 7, 2023 14:32
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Data Graham posted:Tangentially — a thing I've been thinking about that I find a little bit immersion-breaking about the conceit of the book is that it spends a lot of time talking about geographical and geological features that could only have been created over millions of years, like the Waste which is described as being basically Monument Valley/Zion, with pillars and buttes and arches that would have been the result of long slow processes of erosion. They couldn't really have formed that way through a single sudden cataclysm. yes but have you considered: a wizard did it
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Dec 7, 2023 14:41
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Data Graham posted:Tangentially — a thing I've been thinking about that I find a little bit immersion-breaking about the conceit of the book is that it spends a lot of time talking about geographical and geological features that could only have been created over millions of years, like the Waste which is described as being basically Monument Valley/Zion, with pillars and buttes and arches that would have been the result of long slow processes of erosion. They couldn't really have formed that way through a single sudden cataclysm. Nitrousoxide posted:I mean, the cyclical nature of their world should have hosed up our age's paleontology and geology sciences too. a wizard did it e a loving ninja did it too
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Dec 7, 2023 14:42
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Have you also considered
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Dec 7, 2023 15:52
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Soonmot posted:Have you also considered Brandon Sanderson did not like this.
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Dec 7, 2023 15:59
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Nitrousoxide posted:I mean, the cyclical nature of their world should have hosed up our age's paleontology and geology sciences too. Depends on how cyclic we're talking. Because if it's really just age of humanity, new age of humanity, more humanity, then balefire alone should mean that there are no more people ever. So logically there has to be some sort of a regenerative period so it may be cyclic in the way that the universe collapses and then rebangs.
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Dec 7, 2023 16:56
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Balefire doesn't remove souls from the pattern permanently. Death in tel aran rhiod does apparently though.
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Dec 7, 2023 17:02
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Balefire doesn't remove souls from the pattern permanently. Even if balefire doesn't permanently remove someone (I think it does(well, as permanent as there is permancy in the world)) then all that's done is kick the can down to the dream world. If there's a constant loop with no new souls and there is any method of permanent deletion of souls, then eventually all of humanity would be like 10 people. And then none.
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Dec 7, 2023 17:16
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Balefire doesn't remove souls from the pattern permanently. The way I read it, balefire absolutely rips people from future existence. That was the only way to permanently kill Forsaken so TDO couldn’t pull them back into the world a la Moridin and Cyndane.
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Dec 7, 2023 17:20
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In my theoretical metaphysical construct that is admittedly way over thinking it, the wheel always comes back to a 0 point and restarts. We also know that souls end up in bodies that aren't the same. The Heroes of the Horn get reborn as needed. Ergo: Artur Hawkwing was probably a dinosaur at some point.
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Dec 7, 2023 17:25
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The Dark One can grab souls that have been recently killed, but balefire removes someone from the pattern in the past, so beyond the ability of TDO to reach them. That soul then still exists either way, just with balefire they get to stay dead until they are naturally reborn again. I visualize it like the ocean. The surface is the present and TDO is in a boat. If someone dies he can reach into the water to grab them, but if they died in the past they've already sunk too far down for him to reach. Edit: A better analogy is that it unweaves the soul further back, so when the pattern re-weaves it it's too far away from being alive so TDO can't weave it into another body. The thread of that soul definitely keeps going though. pik_d fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Dec 7, 2023 |
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Dec 7, 2023 17:27
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balefire doesn't destroy souls permanently, jordan specified it at some point because many people had asked about it
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Dec 7, 2023 17:32
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There is an episode of Mickey Mouse Clubhouse (shut up, I have a 1-year old) where Goofy is making objects disappear through magic. It turns out that all those objects get transported to some wizard’s living room. I wonder what happens to physical objects that get balefired. Is there some room in this world or another that gets giant chunks of red stone dropped on it during the events of The Dragon Reborn, then a bunch of darkhounds, an entire goddamn castle, and eventually massive amounts of people and landscape?
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Dec 7, 2023 17:42
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When I was a kid, I read Animorphs, where teenagers could change into animals they had touched and mentally downloaded the genetic makeup. Anyways, there was a question of where did their own bodies’ mass go when they changed into something smaller. The alien race that built the morphing technology had apparently built it so any additional mass lost during a morph was transported to a remote part of space, just hanging in suspended animation in vacuum. There was an open question whether a starship could fly through the hanging guts of an entire, currently morphed people. None of this really has anything to do with balefire, but the problem reminded me of this thing from 25 years ago, and now you know it too.
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Dec 7, 2023 18:14
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Soul Glo posted:When I was a kid, I read Animorphs, where teenagers could change into animals they had touched and mentally downloaded the genetic makeup. Anyways, there was a question of where did their own bodies’ mass go when they changed into something smaller. reexperience this by going into the goldmine and reading the animorphs thread. I've also took over the Everworld thread that Epi had started before he passed for more Applegate content.
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Dec 7, 2023 20:30
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Soul Glo posted:There was an open question whether a starship could fly through the hanging guts of an entire, currently morphed people.
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Dec 7, 2023 22:04
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Nihilarian posted:this question was closed during the series Well what was the answer
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Dec 7, 2023 22:07
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pik_d posted:Well what was the answer 1. It would never ever happen because your body and a ship are drops in an ocean. 2. If it did, you'd loving die because you got run over by a spaceship 3. Unless you're the protagonists of a series of books that isn't going to unceremoniously have you guys be randomly splattered because you got super unlucky, so you get just close enough to have rest of your mass dragged into zero space (where it's normally stored and spacheships fly) in the wake of the ship that just missed you, and you get to fight a war on another planet RandomReader fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Dec 7, 2023 |
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Dec 7, 2023 22:14
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