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mdemone posted:ye gods yeah i am a dumbass lol
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Dec 5, 2023 21:03
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God WG Sebald is so good
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Dec 5, 2023 22:18
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I want to read rings of saturn, austerlitz was wonderful
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Dec 5, 2023 22:48
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Rings of Saturn is a beautiful book. I’m reading the emigrants at the moment and it kicks rear end too. He’s one of those writers who creates an atmosphere and a mood so powerful that it makes everything which doesn’t fit into that mood, everything un-Sebaldian, seem temporarily unreal.
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Dec 5, 2023 22:56
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ulvir posted:I want to read rings of saturn, austerlitz was wonderful It really was. If only the English had some semblance of honor and dignity and could have come to terms instead of inducing more pointless war. Sad really
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Dec 5, 2023 23:04
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Lobster Henry posted:God WG Sebald is so good
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Dec 5, 2023 23:51
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Dapper_Swindler posted:its probably why i never read ulysses because all i heard about is its super hard to read and just about some dude becoming a cuckold or something. It's a book about walking around Dublin.
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Dec 6, 2023 01:50
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Dapper_Swindler posted:yeah, i like purple prose and extreamly emotionally descriptive writing, one of my favorite books is the last unicorn and most of that is stuff high school me would have called pretentious as gently caress and it can be but like works because you give a poo poo about the writing and makes the feelings and places feel real even when the book purposely vague on its world and details because none of that matters really to the story. it's fine, most people have not read ulysses. although you owe it to yourself to at least try at some point if you can't get through it then it can look impressive on your bookshelf next to the also-unfinished copy of infinite jest
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Dec 6, 2023 02:40
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Toplowtech posted:I mean the whole Arthurian lit is 200% a fanfiction project. "Here come my OC Perceval, please don't copy!"- Chretien de Troy no it isn't
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Dec 6, 2023 05:15
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It makes me sad when people talk about things in the past as if it's just whatever modern bullshit thing. Arthurian lit is not fan fiction, Shakespeare is not the equivalent of prestige TV, heroic legends are not comparable to Marvel movies, or whatever inane loving thing people trot out when they want to be either dismissive of classics or trying to elevate their dumb nerd poo poo, whichever it is
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Dec 6, 2023 05:20
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I mean, I get it, you don't want to see actual classics compared to terrible bullshit. But nevertheless people adding to the arthurian canon and people writing fanfic about holmes and watson (the ones from the lovely show) kissing are doing the same thing. Both acts arise from the human impulse to expand upon stories that resonated with them. Both come from a place of love. The only difference is the level of quality. I don't think anybody here would dispute that a story that was written eight hundred loving years ago and which is still remembered is better than something a teenager dropped on ao3 last week. Personally I find it beautiful that people have always loved stories, and that our literary canon is a vital, living thing up to the present moment. sharkmafia fucked around with this message at 05:47 on Dec 6, 2023 |
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Dec 6, 2023 05:42
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Heath posted:It makes me sad when people talk about things in the past as if it's just whatever modern bullshit thing. Arthurian lit is not fan fiction, Shakespeare is not the equivalent of prestige TV, heroic legends are not comparable to Marvel movies, or whatever inane loving thing people trot out when they want to be either dismissive of classics or trying to elevate their dumb nerd poo poo, whichever it is Reductionist thinking in general is so incredibly tiring. I don't even think it's intentional, most people are so intellectually disinclined they cannot actually discern between art and garbage; same thinking that leads to cringe garbage like people comparing the dictator du jour to voldermort or themselves, unironically, to the rebels in Star Wars. sharkmafia posted:I mean, I get it, you don't want to see actual classics compared to terrible bullshit. But nevertheless people adding to the arthurian canon and people writing fanfic about holmes and watson (the ones from the lovely show) kissing are doing the same thing. I don't think it's beautiful. I think people should do what the classical peoples did and spend their time composing works of beauty about deep theological and philosophical subjects instead of masturbatory garbage. I find your comparing Le Mort d'Arthur to slashfic to be repulsive.
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Dec 6, 2023 05:57
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Gaius Marius posted:I don't think it's beautiful. I think people should do what the classical peoples did and spend their time composing works of beauty about deep theological and philosophical subjects instead of masturbatory garbage. I find your comparing Le Mort d'Arthur to slashfic to be repulsive. That's fine. What I would say about that is that what is actually remembered are the examples of the works of a given era that are worth remembering. This discussion started with people talking about other authors writing what was essentially fanfic about the count of monte cristo. These stories aren't remembered, at least not usually. Point being, lovely fanfic has always been a thing too. I don't really see the point of putting the classics on such a pedestal that the universal nature of the human urge to create is not acknowledged. I respect fanfic writers, because they are creating. They aren't doing it well, but the nobility of the act is there nonetheless. And it's not as if there's any actual danger of people mistaking slashfic for classics in any case.
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Dec 6, 2023 06:05
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If there’s such a clear distinction between art and garbage, it should be easy to provide a definition of art that will also exclude all garbage.
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Dec 6, 2023 06:06
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sharkmafia posted:That's fine. What I would say about that is that what is actually remembered are the examples of the works of a given era that are worth remembering. This discussion started with people talking about other authors writing what was essentially fanfic about the count of monte cristo. These stories aren't remembered, at least not usually. Point being, lovely fanfic has always been a thing too. This is about literature not tee ball, we don't need participation trophies. For the second point, there is a danger, we are in a world where people are arguing that Scorsese's work is comparable to factory churned marvel slop and that New York Times bestseller is a mark of quality. People who consume only the simplest works are at a grave danger of babybossism, we need to make hard distinctions to disabuse them of their idiocy. Let us put it this way, creation by itself is not worth celebrating. The advance of your own abilities by putting in the work is fine. Ronnie didn't start out Mr.Olympia, he had to put the work in. But he wouldn't be the GOAT if he had stayed repping out 235 x 5 in bench; if you aren't willing to push it to the limit why should anyone care. Faust is not a work of art because Goethe slapped together the Faust tale with some slapdash theology and his own predilections, it's art because the man poured his heart and soul into the work, examining life, culture, love, and loss at the highest level through utilization of the Faust tale. Gaius Marius fucked around with this message at 06:21 on Dec 6, 2023 |
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Dec 6, 2023 06:14
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I don't think creating is a 'noble act' just by default. Nor has it ever been. Read 100 days of Sodom and tell me that is noble in any way. Most 'creators' are and have always been wasting the time and energy of everyone who encounters their 'work'
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Dec 6, 2023 06:16
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Gaius Marius posted:This is about literature not tee ball, we don't need participation trophies. For the second point, there is a danger, we are in a world where people are arguing that Scorsese's work is comparable to factory churned marvel slop and that New York Times bestseller is a mark of quality. People who consume only the simplest works are at a grave danger of babybossism, we need to make hard distinctions to disabuse them of their idiocy. 'Disabusing them of their idiocy' is a sisyphean task. The people who like trash aren't going to stop liking trash because you tell them it's trash. Also, per my previous point, I think you overestimate the danger. Bad writing has never stood the test of time before, so why should it do so now? The only difference in the modern era is that the democratization of literacy and platforms has allowed anyone to be a writer. That is, in the most literal sense of the word: that they may write. A deluge of trash should be expected, but there's no particular basis for thinking that much of it will stick around for long. sharkmafia fucked around with this message at 06:27 on Dec 6, 2023 |
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Dec 6, 2023 06:22
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Heath posted:It makes me sad when people talk about things in the past as if it's just whatever modern bullshit thing. Arthurian lit is not fan fiction, Shakespeare is not the equivalent of prestige TV, heroic legends are not comparable to Marvel movies, or whatever inane loving thing people trot out when they want to be either dismissive of classics or trying to elevate their dumb nerd poo poo, whichever it is sorry, can't make this the thread title, just too long
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Dec 6, 2023 06:25
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I'm just so tired of all these star wars. ed sharkmafia posted:A deluge of trash should be expected, but there's no particular basis for thinking that much of it will stick around for long. Sham bam bamina! fucked around with this message at 07:45 on Dec 6, 2023 |
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Dec 6, 2023 07:37
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Heath posted:It's a book about walking around Dublin. Ulysses is the Shenmue of literature
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Dec 6, 2023 08:28
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the nausicaa challenge, but as a QTE
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Dec 6, 2023 09:46
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"Personally I find it beautiful that people have always loved stories" read the sluts by dennis cooper
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Dec 6, 2023 10:46
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The word 'stories' sets off the disney alarms in my brain
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Dec 6, 2023 10:48
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Old thread yells at clouds
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Dec 6, 2023 11:54
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When I hear the word entertainment, I reach for my gun.
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Dec 6, 2023 12:02
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derp posted:I don't think creating is a 'noble act' just by default. Nor has it ever been. Read 100 days of Sodom and tell me that is noble in any way. The Marquis would be delighted to hear you say that. He longed to be more criminal than he was, indeed he longed to be more criminal than was possible.
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Dec 6, 2023 16:11
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Gaius Marius posted:Reductionist thinking in general is so incredibly tiring. I don't even think it's intentional, most people are so intellectually disinclined they cannot actually discern between art and garbage; same thinking that leads to cringe garbage like people comparing the dictator du jour to voldermort or themselves, unironically, to the rebels in Star Wars. Who are "the classical peoples."
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Dec 6, 2023 18:50
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I don't think that fanfiction and books should be considered the same medium, nor do I think a derivative work constitutes fanfiction if it doesn't come from fandom.
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Dec 6, 2023 18:54
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Heath posted:It makes me sad when people talk about things in the past as if it's just whatever modern bullshit thing. Arthurian lit is not fan fiction, Shakespeare is not the equivalent of prestige TV, heroic legends are not comparable to Marvel movies, or whatever inane loving thing people trot out when they want to be either dismissive of classics or trying to elevate their dumb nerd poo poo, whichever it is I mean i agree but i also think some teachers do an awful job making classics click with people. instead of reading it or watching a play and figuring it out with some help and coming to your own conclusions, its almost always "why are things yellow in the great gatsby, now read the book as word search and write this paper". Atrocious Joe posted:Who are "the classical peoples." also thats the kinda poo poo that also hurts teaching classics, I dont disagree with "read a different book or movie" but you can like both things and sometimes making weirc comparisons helps people understand greater work, just spitting on them as intilectual philistines will just make them hate classics and you. you have to meet folks half way on some stuff like this.(not you joe, the other person)
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Dec 6, 2023 20:42
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Atrocious Joe posted:Who are "the classical peoples." Usually the top half of the paint sample card.
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Dec 6, 2023 20:58
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Solitair posted:I don't think that fanfiction and books should be considered the same medium, nor do I think a derivative work constitutes fanfiction if it doesn't come from fandom. Obviously fandom is a very modern word which can’t literally be applied to, like, Thomas Malory; but when you make this distinction between derivative works and fan fiction, are you defining “fandom” more narrowly than “a group of enthusiasts”?
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Dec 6, 2023 21:24
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"fandom" is imo an Internet age thing. A specific culture of personal investment in an Intellectual Property
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Dec 6, 2023 21:29
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Heath posted:"fandom" is imo an Internet age thing. A specific culture of personal investment in an Intellectual Property It pre-dates widespread internet adoption by decades. Like if we leave aside things like people anxiously lining up to get spoilers for the latest installment of Dickens or whatever, Star Trek is pretty much the ur-Fandom in the sense you're talking about, and that was well-established through newsletters, zines, and in-person meetings before it obviously got translated over to the internet. There's all the "fans are slans!" stuff too, which was equally invested and tribal and weird, just with not as much of a focus on production.
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Dec 6, 2023 21:39
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Atrocious Joe posted:Who are "the classical peoples." Lobster Henry posted:Obviously fandom is a very modern word which can’t literally be applied to, like, Thomas Malory; but when you make this distinction between derivative works and fan fiction, are you defining “fandom” more narrowly than “a group of enthusiasts”? Sham bam bamina! fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Dec 6, 2023 |
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Dec 6, 2023 21:43
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Like sports
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Dec 6, 2023 21:53
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personally i dont lose my marbles over simple comparisons, i also dont throw myself in front of the classical peoples like the fanfiction sedan's going to run them down
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Dec 6, 2023 21:57
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Sham bam bamina! posted:It's self-evidently distinct. It's driven by consumption as identity, a community of practice in which the practice is the act of investment. But how can we say that identity is defined purely by consumption, and practice consists merely of investment, if fan fiction is being produced?
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Dec 6, 2023 22:11
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Heath posted:It makes me sad when people talk about things in the past as if it's just whatever modern bullshit thing. Arthurian lit is not fan fiction, Shakespeare is not the equivalent of prestige TV, heroic legends are not comparable to Marvel movies, or whatever inane loving thing people trot out when they want to be either dismissive of classics or trying to elevate their dumb nerd poo poo, whichever it is When those comparisons are useful, they're not saying there's a qualitative equivalence, saying the new stuff is "good art" by association, but a formal similarity: Arthurian lit reworks existing characters into new forms by reading those characters differently, much like how fan fiction might. Does that mean a given piece of fan fiction is by definition as ambitious as The Once And Future King? No, that would depend on the effort put into writing that fan fiction. However, the comparison does give you an understanding of how Once And Future King approached its influences and how you might do the same.
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Dec 6, 2023 22:36
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Lobster Henry posted:But how can we say that identity is defined purely by consumption, and practice consists merely of investment, if fan fiction is being produced? Sham bam bamina! fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Dec 6, 2023 |
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Dec 6, 2023 22:50
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Maybe you’re right, but I still think it’s a bit of a restrictive definition. There are many different kinds of fandom: there are highly intelligent and literate fans, and there are funko pop collectors, and many shades in between. Pragmatically, I think you have to shift the emphasis away from generalisations about fan psychology, and back to what shapes these cultures to begin with: modern copyright law, and in particular corporate ownership of stories. I think the only difference between fan fiction and derivative work is the former exists in relation to an “official” version in strictly legal and financial terms. Unfortunately, these terms have quite a lot of power to shape our imaginations.
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Dec 6, 2023 23:42
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