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IOwnCalculus posted:You know what else would've kept you moving over that ice? Winter tires. I had Blizzaks on the car when it happened…
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Dec 17, 2023 06:03
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Mustache Ride posted:New cars I would consider at that price point: Civic should also be added to the list. I’d probably do that or the Mazda3 since OP out handling in their requirements. Sounds like they won’t drive enough to get much cost advantage from a hybrid and 4 hour interstate trips are best case scenario for traditional ICE fuel economy.
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Dec 17, 2023 16:16
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Calidus posted:I had Blizzaks on the car when it happened… How bald, or old were they? Anecdotal experience I know, I'm not trying to say you're lying/wrong/didn't happen etc........... But I've never had issue in my Corolla or my old fwd Mazda with snow tires starting on steep, icy hills etc.... Not trying to start an argument over this, just curious.
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Dec 17, 2023 16:27
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Proposed Budget: $20k New or Used: Either Body Style: Unknown How will you be using the car? I will be transporting two kids to and from school, about once a year I take long road trips with my kids (sometimes kids + wife) and my dog. To that extent, my sedan can seat myself, the kids in the backseat, and the dog in the What aspects are most important to you? I think I need a 2 row crossover with a large trunk, I do not want a 3 row with an unusable "trunk" space like the Jeep Commander with the 3rd row up. I'm pretty sure this is a stretch goal, but ideally I would like something capable of towing a small camper trailer or maybe launching a small boat or jet ski. To that extent, I think a small pickup like a Colorado or F-150 might fit most of my needs, but it would mean putting my dog in the dog on road trips, I'm not sure how I feel about that. I think I would be ok with putting my dog in the bed if he is in a secured crate, and maybe a cover on the bed in case it were to start raining. Realistically I think the dog requirement for long trips might eliminate the small pickup option. Ideally, I would really like something enough to have adaptive cruise control, and a backup camera. I feel like the amount of time I get parked between two land barges basically requires a backup camera in parking lots these days. I'm also considering maybe just adding a backup camera to my current car, a 2012 Impala. I would love to add adaptive cruise to this car but I don't know if that is realistically possible.
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Dec 17, 2023 16:58
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i think the key hint there was it was a rwd car and not a fwd car. i'd also like to know what kind of car specifically it was. rwd cars are generally poo poo in the snow and particularly more punishing for lower skill drivers. ive dailied three rwd cars in winter. the ones that could click into 4wd were ok. the miata was a clown show lol. fwd with snow tires is a wholly better experience for the common driver than rwd with snow tires. just to comment: many 'awd' systems are primarily fwd and kick in more power when wheel slip is detected. this occurs less than you might intuitively think. a 2010 crv will beep traction control lights at you when it's happening ethanol fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Dec 17, 2023 |
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Dec 17, 2023 17:03
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Engineering Explained did the math so everyone can stop arguing about it. https://youtu.be/1KGiVzNNW8Y?si=UbnlkEU-WpKWbR7D
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Dec 17, 2023 17:06
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KillHour posted:Engineering Explained did the math so everyone can stop arguing about it. looks like he left out lateral traction testing so we'll have to continue arguing about it
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Dec 17, 2023 17:12
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ethanol posted:looks like he left out lateral traction testing so we'll have to continue arguing about it Lateral traction is the same in all drive configurations when in neutral throttle. If you are turning and using too much gas, that is a skill issue that AWD isn't going to save you from. Good TC might, if you're lucky.
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Dec 17, 2023 17:16
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yeah no reason you would ever need to apply throttle in a turn or where weight distro would matter right. better to tell drivers skill issue. is the 7 series rwd is this what happened to you
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Dec 17, 2023 17:25
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ethanol posted:yeah no reason you would ever need to apply throttle in a turn or where weight distro would matter right. better to tell drivers skill issue. is the 7 series rwd is this what happened to you If you are turning and need enough throttle to break the rear tires loose on flat ground with snow tires, you are either going too fast for the turn or have put yourself in a bad situation already and are trying to get out of it. AWD can't turn faster than RWD, even on snow. You only have so much grip.
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Dec 17, 2023 18:02
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Not Wolverine posted:Proposed Budget: $20k I wouldn’t call an F150 a small truck, but a crew cab will fit two adults and two kids and a dog pretty comfortably in the cab, and fit in your budget. That’s not to say it’s necessarily a good choice overall (they are big! Like, with a crew cab and short bed, bigger than a Suburban big). Source: my wife and I have two kids, just sold a 2014 F150 that we owned for 6 years for just under $20k, and had between two and three dogs during that time. The back seat is big enough that a dog can sit in the footwell in front of the kids. Or you can fold down one of the side seats with the kids in the middle and other side.
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Dec 17, 2023 18:49
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wesleywillis posted:What vehicle? Did the traction control etc work (If equipped)? It was BRZ with traction control on, I had 2 or 3 seasons on blizzaks. So yea lightweight rear wheel drive car. The thing was a champ at stopping in crap weather with blizzaks.
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Dec 17, 2023 18:58
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KillHour posted:If you are turning and need enough throttle to break the rear tires loose on flat ground with snow tires, you are either going too fast for the turn or have put yourself in a bad situation already and are trying to get out of it. AWD can't turn faster than RWD, even on snow. You only have so much grip. it's also asinine to say well you aleady hosed up and ignore one car performs better at regaining control. FWD cars in winter are generally more driver friendly and stable because of the tendency to oversteer/understeer flips into a more comfortable configuration for low traction Calidus posted:It was BRZ with traction control on, I had 2 or 3 seasons on blizzaks. So yea lightweight rear wheel drive car. The thing was a champ at stopping in crap weather with blizzaks. front engine rwd light weight. stop clowning around ethanol fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Dec 17, 2023 |
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Dec 17, 2023 19:55
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ethanol posted:individual wheels will have differing amounts of available grip, more so in winter conditions, and particularly as the weight shifts off of the throttle and the wheels turn at different speeds through a corner. one wheel slipping while three others are not doesn't necessarily mean you're going too fast. delivering power to another wheel with more available traction will give you better control. I'm not saying they don't handle different, and I agree that a FWD car is safer than a RWD car in snow for most drivers because it understeers. But that is still a skill issue that can be solved with practice, and an AWD vehicle won't solve it. AWD biases vary wildly and many will understeer, but many others will oversteer. My M4 is AWD and gunning it when sideways on snow will put you rear end backwards in a second.
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Dec 17, 2023 20:12
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yeah because other things, like weight, matter which makes sports cars bad winter cars... i mean you're telling me a bmw went sideways on you in winter as evidence of awd being bad. tell me more about your bmw awd and i will find out how german engineers tried to murder you for the record I don't like AWD that has strong fwd or rwd bias. only subaru seems to get awd right although I haven't driven any of the new torque vectoring marketing crap on newer hondas. I prefer straight up 4wd (two driven wheels) or just fwd. Honda AWD in my experience is ok for getting unstuck out of your driveway or something but not much else because it's not even active around corners. and then it kind of throws you off by how it kicks in ethanol fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Dec 17, 2023 |
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Dec 17, 2023 20:14
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ethanol posted:yeah because other things, like weight, matter which makes sports cars bad winter cars... The M4 is actually really great in the snow with snow tires. I daily it year round in Buffalo and I've never had a problem. It also never tried to kill me because I'm experienced enough in managing oversteer with acceleration that it doesn't take me by surprise. But my point is that blindly getting an AWD car because "it's good in snow" is oversimplifying things by a lot. If anything, it's going to be less predictable, as you said.
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Dec 17, 2023 20:43
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KillHour posted:The M4 is actually really great in the snow with snow tires. I daily it year round in Buffalo and I've never had a problem. It also never tried to kill me because I'm experienced enough in managing oversteer with acceleration that it doesn't take me by surprise. your point was that more driven wheels don't matter when you turn on snow or ice instead you've backed off to they don't matter because the delivery has been inconsistent across the brands
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Dec 17, 2023 20:50
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ethanol posted:your point was that more driven wheels don't matter when you turn on snow or ice instead you've backed off to they don't matter because the delivery has been inconsistent across the brands More driven wheels don't matter when you are turning at the maximum amount of lateral grip of your tires if your goal is to maintain traction. Which wheels are driven matters when you do lose traction because it will affect how the car responds. FWD is the safest for most people in most situations (even compared to something like Subaru AWD, which will push you out wide instead of understeer), but the idea is to not lose control of your car in the first place. If I was putting someone with no winter driving experience behind the wheel of a car in a relatively flat place, I would pick FWD just because it minimizes any possible situation where they could be going sideways.
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Dec 17, 2023 20:58
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I haven't ever driven in serious wintry or mountainous areas, just northern IL my whole life, but when I taught people how to winter drive I leaned heavily on a few rules. Don't ever stop, just keep barely rolling as much as you can. And don't brake or accelerate through corners unless you have to, do that prior to the corner.
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Dec 17, 2023 21:02
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KillHour posted:More driven wheels don't matter when you are turning at the maximum amount of lateral grip of your tires if your goal is to maintain traction. Which wheels are driven matters when you do lose traction because it will affect how the car responds. FWD is the safest for most people in most situations (even compared to something like Subaru AWD, which will push you out wide instead of understeer), but the idea is to not lose control of your car in the first place. this is v circular because you keep talking about whole car being at the edge of grip and i keep talking about single wheel loss of traction at normal, slow speeds while essentially feathering the throttle. the op is describing taking a turn off the line from a stop light. it was a rwd sports car. in this case awd (assuming it's a heavier forward biased awd) with all seasons would have actually been better off. however op should understand that fwd with snow tires would have also been fine and is in most cases safer than awd with all seasons. case closed. ethanol fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Dec 17, 2023 |
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Dec 17, 2023 21:10
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ethanol posted:this is v circular because you keep talking about whole car being at the edge of grip and i keep talking about single wheel loss of traction at normal, slow speeds while essentially feathering the throttle. the op is describing taking a turn off the line from a stop light. In your situation, the only difference is how fast you get though the turn. The car would not understeer or oversteer or push much at all, regardless of drivetrain. In OP's situation, they used too much throttle for the conditions and put themselves sideways. That wouldn't have happened in a FWD car, but it alsob probably wouldn't have happened with smoother inputs. AWD is not necessary for either.
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Dec 17, 2023 21:17
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I think it's important to note that I, too, am always correct about how other people drive and if their experience differs from what I state, it's their problem for not being as skilled or knowledgeable as I am, or possibly because they own the wrong vehicle.
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Dec 17, 2023 21:31
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Steve French posted:I wouldn’t call an F150 a small truck, but a crew cab will fit two adults and two kids and a dog pretty comfortably in the cab, and fit in your budget. That’s not to say it’s necessarily a good choice overall (they are big! Like, with a crew cab and short bed, bigger than a Suburban big). In addition, I think I would have to get a much newer f-150 to get adaptive cruise control, I think adaptive cruise at my budget might restrict me to newer sedans, like maybe a civic, if I can avoid the Honda/Toyota tax.
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Dec 17, 2023 22:20
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KillHour posted:In your situation, the only difference is how fast you get though the turn. The car would not understeer or oversteer or push much at all, regardless of drivetrain. In OP's situation, they used too much throttle for the conditions and put themselves sideways. That wouldn't have happened in a FWD car, but it alsob probably wouldn't have happened with smoother inputs. AWD is not necessary for either. I never got sideways I got stuck half way through a right hand turn. My operator error was primarily to much confidence in the time that I would need to safely make the turn. It’s kinda funny that managed to jack up a BRZ without getting it sideways. Sliding into a ditch or a pole always seemed more likely especially on those LRR stock tires after it rained.
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Dec 17, 2023 22:27
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KillHour posted:In your situation, the only difference is how fast you get though the turn. The car would not understeer or oversteer or push much at all, regardless of drivetrain. In OP's situation, they used too much throttle for the conditions and put themselves sideways. That wouldn't have happened in a FWD car, but it alsob probably wouldn't have happened with smoother inputs. AWD is not necessary for either. It sounded not that they went sideways, just that they stopped going at all e;fb new posts
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Dec 17, 2023 22:28
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If anybody is in the market for something Italian, Maserati is just *giving* cars away. https://www.theautopian.com/the-new-maserati-granturismo-is-depreciating-by-tens-of-thousands-of-dollars-on-showroom-floors/ 48k off sticker, not too shabby!
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Dec 18, 2023 12:08
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Mustache Ride posted:New cars I would consider at that price point: KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Civic should also be added to the list. I’d probably do that or the Mazda3 since OP out handling in their requirements. Sounds like they won’t drive enough to get much cost advantage from a hybrid and 4 hour interstate trips are best case scenario for traditional ICE fuel economy. Thank you both, I appreciate the help!!
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Dec 18, 2023 21:33
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Steve French posted:I wouldn’t call an F150 a small truck, but a crew cab will fit two adults and two kids and a dog pretty comfortably in the cab, and fit in your budget. That’s not to say it’s necessarily a good choice overall (they are big! Like, with a crew cab and short bed, bigger than a Suburban big). Ideally, a Tahoe might be perfect, but then it would have to be 2017+ and a high trim level, on autotempest.com the cheapest ones I could find were about $30K with 100k+ miles. If I sacrifice towing capacity, a Traverse or Acadia might also work, but it would need to be similarly new and high spec'd costing about $30K again. A Silverado 1500 is my dream vehicle, but that would have to be 2020+ to get adaptive cruise control and I think that would also cost $30K. I'm left thinking that adaptive cruise control at my budget is going to require stepping down to a sedan, which is not terrible but not really an upgrade, at least not enough of an upgrade for me to justify taking on a car payment. If I forgo the need for towing capacity, a 2014+ Impala or 2016 Malibu could have adaptive cruise control, and sedans will fit my actual needs 99% of the time. But I want to be able to do more, when I take my son camping I want something easier to load, or when I want to bring large items home I don't want to have to burrow a different vehicle. Malibu wagons are more capable, but older and don't have adaptive cruise control. My 2012 Impala is paid off, it has 130K miles and needs a little work, I can either try to trade it now or spend a few thousand on repairs and try to make it last until adaptive cruise control is common enough on used vehicles that I could afford a more desirable SUV, pickup or CUV with adaptive cruise control. The fact is I got spoiled on my road trip when I had adaptive cruise control on the interstate, for once I didn't completely hate the drive and that is something I want to experience again on my next road trip, and I don't want to have to get another rental for a road trip in the future. If I omit the need for adaptive cruise control, a midsize pickup like a Colorado with a V6 would have a 6,000lb towing capacity which is decent (I don't own a boat or RV I just dream of owning one in the future) and it's shorter than a 1500. However I'm also considering find a 2020 Silverado/Sierra 1500 without adaptive cruise control and trying to add it on later, which I suspect is probably a bad idea.
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Dec 19, 2023 19:47
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I don’t know for sure but 2020+ Silverado 1500 with the tow package and all that probably runs more than 30k, since thats the trim people actually want instead of the silly v6. Definitely new those run something like 50k+. That said don’t buy a tow/haul full size unless you are 100% sure you will use it, regularly. And you shouldn’t tow with midsize pickup at max load. (6k). That means towing most boats and rv trailers bigger than a shoebox is totally out for midsize. You should aim to tow at 50% of the rating because this will be much much more comfortable and safe. Meaning a full size is your minimum entry to more serous towing than maybe a single snowmobile or some lumber on a small trailer with a midsize And then above 1500 you get into real towing, like the length and weight class of rv people generally dream of, you need a 2500 or bigger. Preferably diesel Carefully examine your intended load against the rating of the vehicle and do not plan on running at max load. That’s a bad idea. Shoot for 50-60% of the rating imo. Full max load is like, you’re hopping down the street for a mile with no hills, highways, or major braking. ethanol fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Dec 19, 2023 |
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Dec 19, 2023 19:57
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Max tow on a non-ZR2 V6 Colorado is 7000lb, and I've had at least 5500lb behind my Canyon with zero problems. This isn't the old days of tow ratings being whatever GM felt like, they're doing the Davis Dam grade at max capacity. You aren't getting there in a hurry but you will get there safely. Edit: please stop spouting the kind of bullshit that makes every bro convinced they NEED a 2500HD with a 20k tow package because they might have a boat someday IOwnCalculus fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Dec 19, 2023 |
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Dec 19, 2023 20:03
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IOwnCalculus posted:Max tow on a non-ZR2 V6 Colorado is 7000lb, and I've had at least 5500lb behind my Canyon with zero problems. 80% load and those v6 colorados seem to have more juice than they publish. I wonder how it feels at 7000? I definitely wouldn’t do that in my Tacoma which is already underpowered tho Edit: If you think informing people to not to run at max load is bullshit, whatever lol. Why is this thread constantly so edgy. My post does not say go buy a 2500 lol
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Dec 19, 2023 20:05
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Buying a truck before you buy the boat is real dumb
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Dec 19, 2023 21:41
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ethanol posted:I don’t know for sure but 2020+ Silverado 1500 with the tow package and all that probably runs more than 30k, since thats the trim people actually want instead of the silly v6. Definitely new those run something like 50k+. That said don’t buy a tow/haul full size unless you are 100% sure you will use it, regularly. I somewhat agree that a midsize would require an ultralight camper, to that extent I did see a Coleman camper that can sleep 8 that weighs 4000lbs. I would have to be careful with how much I pack and it probably wouldn't be a fun experience, but for only a couple trips a year I think it might be more practical than a full size tow rig. KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Buying a truck before you buy the boat is real dumb
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Dec 19, 2023 21:45
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Not Wolverine posted:I agree but I also think this is sort of s chicken vs egg scenario, I would like to be able to rent a boat or RV in my future, and that definitely would not be possible with my Impala. You can rent either of those things. Boats can be rented on the body of water you want to run them on. RVs come in self powered versions.
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Dec 19, 2023 22:27
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You can also rent a tow equipped midsize or full size pickup for relatively cheap
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Dec 19, 2023 22:32
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Motronic posted:You can rent either of those things. Boats can be rented on the body of water you want to run them on. RVs come in self powered versions. You can also rent an RV towed to a campsite (or even your home if you want to have a bunch of nerds over from out of town for a LAN weekend) and it is surprisingly affordable.
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Dec 19, 2023 22:38
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I believe the Touareg/Cayenne have had adaptive cruise control since the start of the 2nd gen (2010), and will tow 7700 lbs, plenty for a small boat / jetskis / lil camper, and should be findable in your $20k budget.
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Dec 19, 2023 22:47
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Might want to look at the BMW X5 as well. I think the F15 models had ACC as an option but I'm not 100% sure on that. The gas and diesel versions of that and the older E70 will also tow whatever you need as well. Just have to keep additional maintenance costs in mind but the E70's can be had pretty drat cheap. I still want one but don't have the space at the moment.
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Dec 20, 2023 00:48
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Motronic posted:You can rent either of those things. Boats can be rented on the body of water you want to run them on. RVs come in self powered versions. ethanol posted:You can also rent a tow equipped midsize or full size pickup for relatively cheap As for a Touareg or x5, I am paranoid about what I believe to be extremely high maintenance and repair costs of European vehicles. But an older Touareg is tempting, one with a v-10 diesel sounds fun but I have no idea how much one of those would cost. In addition, if anything we're to break I think it would be a lot harder to find a replacement part at either u-pull-it or AutoZone. At this point, I think my most realistic options for a tow vehicle would be a slightly older half ton pickup and suffer through life without adaptive cruise control, or just keep my current car a little longer.
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Dec 20, 2023 02:34
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I've only driven the rented ones through work, and they use enterprise truck rental. The no towing alowed disclaimer is for regular rentals, if you rent a truck you go through enterprise truck rental, not just like.. the stall at the airport. I dunno how economical that is. Otherwise I always heard uhaul is cheapest, but as you said none around.. won't work edit: oh a boat for small rivers and lakes and poo poo? i'm disappointed. i was hoping for some giant ocean vessel. ethanol fucked around with this message at 03:00 on Dec 20, 2023 |
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Dec 20, 2023 02:45
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