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SyntheticPolygon posted:Ever heard of this comic called Bleach? I guess it doesn't exactly wipe out the old cast literally but we know in practice it actually wiped out the whole cast. One difference between JJK and most series that do this, including Bleach, is how it hasn't kept a fallback position. Normally a series that splits up the cast for a new one, the old cast still exists, so if the new characters fail to get the same investment as the old cast, the series can pick up where it left off. JJK has been kinda doing that, with Nobara's vague fate and bringing Gojo back to die, but for the most part it's just been shredding its old cast even as the new cast fails to get the same traction. Something like Bleach had the problem of the Captains being more popular than the old cast, so it shifted focus to a less effective dynamic, but at least it's coming from something readers connected to. Here, we lost the old without getting anything new that catches on in the same way. (Chainsaw Man arguably does something similar with part 2, but that's a whole different conversation and, looking at sales graphs, it created similar difficulties for keeping public interest.)
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Jan 5, 2024 23:57
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SyntheticPolygon posted:You haven't read much battle shonen have you? I've definitely heard and also think that One Piece peaked at Marineford and the rest has been a slow spiral downward that's rapidly increasing in degradation every year.
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Jan 6, 2024 00:05
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ImpAtom posted:like what the gently caress more does someone have to do to be considered a main character? Not die like a chump, for one.
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Jan 6, 2024 03:11
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chiasaur11 posted:
I'll be the one to argue against that; Chainsaw Man very obviously did that as a deliberate literary choice in the service of writing a true trilogy where each part was meant to stand more or less on its own, even while serving as parts of a larger overall narrative. This is distinctly different from JJK and other series that were clearly intended to stand as one continuous series, but unfortunately succumbed to all the various pressures inherent to modern serialized manga. Seriously, for all that I might dislike how JJK and other series have turned out over time, I try to be mindful about how a lot of these are simply due to the insane, crushing burden of having to put out "something" on a relentless schedule. Most of the time I feel like we're lucky if we get anything coherent over the long run, and that's usually due to the author garnering enough clout to take breaks once in a while to gather their thoughts and plan things out. If you're writing a book, particularly in your spare time, you have the luxury of being able to revisit earlier chapters and even completely revise the whole story if you find, late in the process, that your plot and themes aren't cohering the way you had hoped. Manga authors don't have that luxury; they basically have to pump out a novel's (or several novels') worth of content, piece by piece, on a weekly/biweekly basis, meaning you're probably effectively getting a first draft a lot of the time. If the creative impulse that drives you really, really cannot be denied, I can't fault any creator for following where it leads, even if it ends up alienating the audience. And that first draft is probably also giving you a clear unfiltered look at the author's biases. And/or it is killing the creators' health. It's not a great situation all around! But some of my favorite series currently have irregular or infrequent installments; given the vast proliferation of content and creators, it's hard to argue against the idea that the best results come from allowing people to produce on their own schedules.
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Jan 6, 2024 04:18
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ImpAtom posted:At this point I'm kind of struggling for what doesn't qualify Nobara as a main character except that she's a girl. I think you figured it out.
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Jan 6, 2024 04:25
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That was unfortunate for Higuruma. Sukuna wanted to confirm that he was truly gifted and that he could indeed perform reverse curse technique before Sukuna cleaved him to death.
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Jan 6, 2024 06:37
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This was a really cool thing they did for Jumpfest this year, not sure if it was posted. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PpaHyOo4to That's pretty much exactly how I hope they animate the scene, it's so well done
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Jan 6, 2024 06:51
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SyntheticPolygon posted:You haven't read much battle shonen have you? I don't find it to be the same thing. JJK had a rock solid setup and could have just unfolded that setup in a way that would have rivaled the shonen greats. That was clearly the plan from day one. A methodical and geographically-based search for the fingers. An unfolding of Jujutsu society. Inter-family politics, and the Jujutsu schools having their own politics and characters that would have grown over years of serialization. A graded power system that was made to last for a long time and see the Jujutsu High and Kyoto students ascending through it. For whatever reason Gege got cold feet at the prospect of becoming a long-running, serialized mangaka, and tore 90% of it down. Idk what else to say but I don't think it's ever played out quite like this before  it's interesting as hell. A series of this popularity never would have been allowed to be detonated like this in the west; the only reason it was able to happen here is the extremely unique properties of serialized manga and mangaka culture."Past the halfway point it's like they didn't care" doesn't even begin to describe the level of sheer destruction that occurred here imo
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Jan 6, 2024 18:54
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I don't believe Gege ever intended to play the setup straight as you suggest.
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Jan 6, 2024 19:31
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Taima posted:Idk what else to say but I don't think it's ever played out quite like this before No Wave fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Jan 6, 2024 |
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Jan 6, 2024 20:49
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Again the big thing with me and this series is that it jettisoned a majority of its established cast including several very well-liked characters, many of which had interesting dynamics/history with eachother at this point to machinegun out a bunch of events and characters who could effortlessly be written out to get where we are now. I feel like with some fairly light text editing you could cut multiple volumes out of the culling game and no new reader would notice. I mean, I guess it's realistic that a bunch of the original cast would punch out instead of volunteering to help fight a demi-god but lmao usually you don't get the open "Yeah, like 90% of you guys are irrelevant now. Please go home" meeting. Gege could always just have them come back with some big surprise but it's legit shocking how Todo and Nobara are just gone from the story. Todo never stopped considering Yuji his brother, I can't imagine him literally having *zero loving input* at all here. And I can complain about that until he is written back in. Same with Nobara, but even if she shows up and is the lynchpin in beating Sukuna, we traded volume after volume of material that may as well be white noise where she could've been there even just, bouncing off the main cast even if she couldn't fight at that level anymore.
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Jan 6, 2024 21:07
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Fabricated posted:Again the big thing with me and this series is that it jettisoned a majority of its established cast including several very well-liked characters, many of which had interesting dynamics/history with eachother at this point to machinegun out a bunch of events and characters who could effortlessly be written out to get where we are now. If it wasn't for how Gege consistently treats his female characters, I'd have more hope for Nobara coming back, but I think she's dead dead.
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Jan 6, 2024 21:12
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Taima posted:I don't find it to be the same thing. JJK had a rock solid setup and could have just unfolded that setup in a way that would have rivaled the shonen greats. That was clearly the plan from day one. A methodical and geographically-based search for the fingers. An unfolding of Jujutsu society. Inter-family politics, and the Jujutsu schools having their own politics and characters that would have grown over years of serialization. A graded power system that was made to last for a long time and see the Jujutsu High and Kyoto students ascending through it. I mean again, isn't this just Bleach? Soul Society noble politics means a lot to the SS arc, and then kinda cease to matter immediately. Not too different in Naruto either, Hyuuga family drama matters so much to Chuunin Exam but then like not really ever later. Not an uncommon aspect of the genre imo, politics usually end up more as set-dressing. And that thing about characters not growing over years of serialisation is an accusation that's been thrown against MHA for years now regarding how this story with "academia" in the title is ending with characters never progressing past their first school year. And heck, when you think about a manga with potential to be a long runner, tearing itself down you've got Demon Slayer ending at 200 chapters despite exploding in popularity because of the anime. It coula kept going forever but instead it had a disappointing final arc etc. Like I dunno, these are the sorts of things you hear about ever jump manga that goes super mainstream then inevitably starts disappointing a bunch of fans as its unable to keep up the quality for hundreds of chapters. E: And of course half the stuff you mention were clearly things that never mattered much to the story in the first place. Like didn't every single main character immediately get reccomended to be Grade 1? It was never going to be something that was going to meaningfully last.
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Jan 6, 2024 21:16
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Naruto is really funny because it brings up a bunch of the politics again in its leadup to, and during the interminable 4th Ninja War and Naruto just kinda ends up being Ninja Obama
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Jan 6, 2024 21:17
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I think the csm comparison is extremely instructive because it highlights how much of the difficulty is the length of real world serialization. almost the entirety of chainsaw man part 1 could have taken place since the culling game started (if my math is right, this week's chapter corresponds to the chapter where denji is launched into and then returns from space during the hybrid fight). csm is a tightly paced action horror thriller. jjk is a long-running shonen battle manga and accordingly must spend its time much differently. Like, the gojo/sukuna fight alone is not only three times as long chapter-wise as any CSM fight, it's as long as the entire reze arc. if you're comparing the moments where JJK and CSM blew up their casts and then kept rolling, aki was confirmed dead on 7/5/20 and CSM part 1 was over by December 14 of the same year, with a complete narrative and thematic payoff to everything that happened, such that the appearance of PART 1 END in the final panel was a genuine surprise to many. On the other hand, the last shibuya incident chapter (of fifty-three) was January 2021 and we are still waiting for the punchline. gege very obviously always intended to blow up his setting, but people expect a payoff when you do something like that. So far, we're still waiting, especially after the return of gojo also failed to pay off much. Valentin fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Jan 6, 2024 |
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Jan 6, 2024 21:20
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Valentin posted:On the other hand, the last shibuya incident chapter (of fifty-three) was January 2021 and we are still waiting for the punchline. What does he mean by this?
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Jan 6, 2024 22:29
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No Wave posted:I disagree and Chainsaw Man was arguably detonated in the same way, with the gun devil being found and killed almost offscreen after setting up a very similar premise to JJK. But it felt more under control. A lot of series set up long-running quests that just get put aside, I don't find the direction of JJK that abnormal except that it's ending so soon. I disagree, you're leaving out a huge part of the story that follows what you put in spoiler tags. The gun devil was indeed found off-screen, but wasn't killed. Instead, it was kept unconscious with different superpowers across the world owning fragments of it, using these fragments as protection. Makima goes on to collect these fragments, but the US president makes a deal with the gun devil to kill Makima in exchange of one year of the life spans of all US citizens. This fails (and Makima controls the gun devil), who then possesses Aki's corpse, which causes Denji to have to kill Aki. Imo, CSM is an example of an off-screen revelation done right, especially since it led to further interesting developments in the story. In any case, it was definitely not just put aside. As an aside and in response to some other comments in this thread, I don't think other manga following the same disappointing routes is any reason to not be disappointed with JJK doing it too. rkd_ fucked around with this message at 02:02 on Jan 7, 2024 |
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Jan 7, 2024 01:16
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I just want to say I appreciate Sakuna being such a dickhead villain. I was thinking about how he didn't even really respect Gojo despite the fight just 'yeah that was a good fight, anyway.' and does all this evil poo poo for the gently caress of it It makes seeing anime only watchers reactions really funny with "You're gonna have to let Sakuna handle this Yuji!! Call him out!!' or "Did Sakuna just save Yuji from Choso??" Like it's just so funny to see
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Jan 7, 2024 03:07
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rkd_ posted:I disagree, you're leaving out a huge part of the story that follows what you put in spoiler tags. The gun devil was indeed found off-screen, but wasn't killed. Instead, it was kept unconscious with different superpowers across the world owning fragments of it, using these fragments as protection. Makima goes on to collect these fragments, but the US president makes a deal with the gun devil to kill Makima in exchange of one year of the life spans of all US citizens. This fails (and Makima controls the gun devil), who then possesses Aki's corpse, which causes Denji to have to kill Aki. Imo, CSM is an example of an off-screen revelation done right, especially since it led to further interesting developments in the story. In any case, it was definitely not just put aside. I assume they meant (Chainsawman spoiler)Makima vs the Gun devil was mostly offscreen
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Jan 7, 2024 03:49
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trucutru posted:Not die like a chump, for one. Gojo not a main character, got it.
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Jan 7, 2024 03:54
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ThisIsACoolGuy posted:I just want to say I appreciate Sakuna being such a dickhead villain. I was thinking about how he didn't even really respect Gojo despite the fight just 'yeah that was a good fight, anyway.' and does all this evil poo poo for the gently caress of it the entire "Holy poo poo! He's going to cry! Look at him!" bit was peak
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Jan 7, 2024 04:21
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https://imgur.com/a/odcPUmP A jjk meme Meningism fucked around with this message at 05:09 on Jan 7, 2024 |
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Jan 7, 2024 04:54
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Speaking of fan content. https://twitter.com/monkeydluffyy02/status/1743015476723163560
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Jan 7, 2024 05:01
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RatHat posted:I assume they meant (Chainsawman spoiler)Makima vs the Gun devil was mostly offscreen Perhaps, although the post is talking about the detonation of a series and putting previous things aside. Regardless though, something happening off-screen is very different when it drives the story directly thereafter vs when not. I don't think you can say 'they both had things happen off-screen so they're equal' without considering the context.
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Jan 7, 2024 05:41
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ImpAtom posted:Gojo not a main character, got it. He actually had a glorious death, it was just off-panel
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Jan 7, 2024 10:53
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Fabricated posted:I feel like with some fairly light text editing you could cut multiple volumes out of the culling game and no new reader would notice. counterpoint: hakari against the manga artist guy, the samurai guy and the sumo guy with Maki vs Naoya and THE MILITARY were all really funny. also why would Todo be around. Just to sound smart while they're discussing? Man can't fight anymore
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Jan 7, 2024 12:41
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UnderFreddy posted:counterpoint: hakari against the manga artist guy, the samurai guy and the sumo guy with Maki vs Naoya and THE MILITARY were all really funny. Why not? he's still a genius and should have his arm back. give him a cursed tool, give him a new CT. Miwa is around and she apparently cant fight!
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Jan 7, 2024 13:55
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Jerkface posted:Why not? he's still a genius and should have his arm back. give him a cursed tool, give him a new CT. Miwa is around and she apparently cant fight! Hmm. I imagined his soul getting damaged by Mahito wasn't just "your CT doesn't work", and more hurting his actual ability to use CE. Good point on Miwa, though.
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Jan 7, 2024 14:19
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UnderFreddy posted:also why would Todo be around. Just to sound smart while they're discussing? Man can't fight anymore because that's his brother?? because he won't let him feel alone again??? have you no heart Valentin fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Jan 7, 2024 |
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Jan 7, 2024 18:04
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Yuji needs Todo now more than ever
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Jan 7, 2024 19:16
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UnderFreddy posted:also why would Todo be around. Just to sound smart while they're discussing? Man can't fight anymore One word: Speedwagon
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Jan 7, 2024 23:11
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Todo should be around because he's the greatest
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Jan 7, 2024 23:30
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Todo reveals he discovered the ancient forbidden power of This Gun He Found and shoots Sukuna in the head.
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Jan 7, 2024 23:40
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Todo solves the mystery of the sound one hand clapping makes and becomes a powerhouse again
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Jan 8, 2024 00:57
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CharlestonJew posted:Todo solves the mystery of the sound one hand clapping makes and becomes a powerhouse again if Todo could use his power but it now required him to slap his opponent. I would forgive every issue I've ever had with this manga
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Jan 8, 2024 02:33
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todo is an rear end lover. he's clapping them cheeks
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Jan 8, 2024 02:51
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TheHan posted:todo is an rear end lover. he's clapping them cheeks I ain't judgin. just throwing out acceptable alternatives either way Todo showin up would make everyone happy
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Jan 8, 2024 03:03
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One question I'm genuinely asking about is why female characters like Naboara getting taken out seen as bad. It's one take I've seen in the anime thread and in situations like this I've been wondering about it and I might as well ask. Talking purely up to that point and setting aside the percieved 'main three' trope, I get icing a female character to use to power up the male is a tired thing but I never really take it as sexist in situations like the Shibuya incident when minutes prior Nanami got turned into pants and the entirety of Shibuya got served in hells kitchen let alone all the male characters that died beforehand or kept getting maimed. It just felt like 'yeah one of the important characters just blew up' but like... so did several others. Now, I know she hasn't shown back up in the manga and hell she might not given the weird choice to never mention her again, but in that specific situation I just don't get why it's wrong to have her get jumpscared turning a corner.
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Jan 10, 2024 23:25
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Shonen cliches aren't kind to women, and some of us still dare to dream Maki still owns though, that can't be taken away by anyone
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Jan 10, 2024 23:33
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ThisIsACoolGuy posted:One question I'm genuinely asking about is why female characters like Naboara getting taken out seen as bad. Let me ask you two questions. 1) Did Nobara contribute anything of value, at all, during the entirety of the Shibuya incident? 2) Are you caught up on the manga? Because for me, what happened with Nobara is - more than anything else - an early warning sign of the bad things to come.
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Jan 10, 2024 23:40
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