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We don't get much of him, but Naobito seems to have been akin to Gojo in that at his core was a self-indulgent warrior only looking for good fites, and thus flawed by lacking the will or interest to reform jujutsu society despite being in a position to do so. Only this much moral fiber doesn't make him a good person by any means, but contrasts with the other Zen'ins who are shown outright as conniving, power-hungry fuckers. Toji, who despised the Zen'in, was able to hold civil conversation with him, and his response to Maki defying the family was to keep her Grade artificially low and force Mai to also become a sorcerer, which can be interpreted in many ways but for sure beats having them killed as their father did the moment Naobito was out of the picture.
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Jan 27, 2024 21:03
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I feel like the 24fps frames skill has some good ideas, but is just overly complicated. Like "can go super fast, but only in the form of pre-planned movements over a brief time window" is a cool "speedster" idea that lends itself to potentially interesting fights where there's strategy involved in trying to predict what movements both parties will take. But mixing in the frames stuff just muddles up the concept.
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Jan 27, 2024 21:27
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Naobito probably only got that ability just justify his rant about 60fps interpolation uploads on youtube.
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Jan 27, 2024 21:42
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the 24 fps idea is neat but falls apart due to the bit about applying to other people highlighting how little sense it makes. if it was just a question of naobito planning his movements it'd be like okay sure he plans these movements but adding the whole "other people also have to preplan and stick to the script" makes me try to parse out what "planning" and "selecting" and "not performing" a movement are (and what like, a frame or movement even is) and the whole thing becomes a mess
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Jan 27, 2024 22:07
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Valentin posted:the 24 fps idea is neat but falls apart due to the bit about applying to other people highlighting how little sense it makes. if it was just a question of naobito planning his movements it'd be like okay sure he plans these movements but adding the whole "other people also have to preplan and stick to the script" makes me try to parse out what "planning" and "selecting" and "not performing" a movement are (and what like, a frame or movement even is) and the whole thing becomes a mess its king crimson
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Jan 27, 2024 22:07
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king crimson makes ten thousand percent more sense, I'm sorry.
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Jan 27, 2024 22:08
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Valentin posted:king crimson makes ten thousand percent more sense, I'm sorry. same concept though
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Jan 27, 2024 22:10
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Both abilities "just work"
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Jan 27, 2024 22:11
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king crimsons makes way more sense since youre just erasing time or whatever, the thing that makes frame trap make less sense is the enemy needing to do it plus becoming a picture after didnt like it as a CT and didnt seem that interesting in how it was used either
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Jan 27, 2024 22:55
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The ability makes perfect sense for me. I don't get what's so complex.
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Jan 27, 2024 22:58
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MonsterEnvy posted:The ability makes perfect sense for me. I don't get what's so complex. maybe less "doesnt make sense" and more "not a compelling power" or maybe even just "gege doesnt really use it well or showcase the ability in an interesting way" - King crimson shows off lots of different uses and scenarios in Jojo. We don't even get an example of someone understanding the ability and working in its framework to force naobito or whats his face to be clever. Its literally just "has super speed" + "traps opponent randomly" without any further thought. Like think of this vs boogie woogie and how that was used, and expanded upon (replacing Todo only, replacing an ally, replacing an animate object imbued with cursed technique, replacing an enemy, slapping his own hands, slapping a teammates hand, slapping an enemy's hand) Thats gege at his biggest brained Jerkface fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Jan 27, 2024 |
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Jan 27, 2024 23:23
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I think it's less that it's complicated, and more that it introduces a bunch of down-in-the-weeds details of how this power works that might be relevant in a fight. If you're coming at it like it was a stand fight, you might get hung up on questions like, "What scenario would cause him to create a plan that he doesn't follow through on or isn't physically possible?" or "How would someone derive the rules of this CT mid-fight so they don't get hosed if he touches them?" But that turns out to be overthinking it; in terms of the story it's just a wrapper around the much simpler concepts of, "He's very fast, and if he touches you, he gets a free follow-up hit," with an oddly specific aesthetic layered over top.
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Jan 27, 2024 23:47
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My only gripe with Projection Sorcery is the question of why Naoya didn't Frame Maki when he tapped her shoulder before he doubled back to get floored? If she flinched that should have broken the 24 frame rule I imagine but the alternative is that he was just overly cocky. The ability is otherwise one I think Gege over-explained when the principle is "Move smoothly while in view of the sorcerer or get punished" and "The sorcerer moves really fast"
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Jan 28, 2024 00:58
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I just hope we see my boy Inumaki do some cool poo poo at some point again.
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Jan 28, 2024 01:27
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Brought To You By posted:My only gripe with Projection Sorcery is the question of why Naoya didn't Frame Maki when he tapped her shoulder before he doubled back to get floored? If she flinched that should have broken the 24 frame rule I imagine but the alternative is that he was just overly cocky. The ability is otherwise one I think Gege over-explained when the principle is "Move smoothly while in view of the sorcerer or get punished" and "The sorcerer moves really fast" Maki figured out the 24 frame planned move thing and so punched Naoya instead of getting frozen.
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Jan 28, 2024 04:06
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Ytlaya posted:I feel like the 24fps frames skill has some good ideas, but is just overly complicated. really this is a lot of gege's powers, he's aiming for what jjba or hxh do but doesn't get there as consistently and has admitted as much
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Jan 28, 2024 05:20
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MonsterEnvy posted:Maki figured out the 24 frame planned move thing and so punched Naoya instead of getting frozen. It's just weird and a nitpick on my part. it could be cleaned up by having Naoya just realize she is still able to move but he's locked into his back attack because of his own rules and that's what does him in. But I still think she should have been put in the frame and she just wins another way or on the next exchange.
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Jan 28, 2024 05:54
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lih posted:really this is a lot of gege's powers, he's aiming for what jjba or hxh do but doesn't get there as consistently and has admitted as much Yeah, this is the actual issue. The 24 frames power is, in the end, just a fancy way to let a character achieve 1-sec bursts of ridiculous speed and agility with a built-in risk/reward enhancer with the whole "other people will have to abide the 24 rules if struck" deal. The writer can do a whole lot with that power (I still don't get why wouldn't Naobito use powerful-yet-unwieldy cursed tools, since his power would also insure that he would wield them perfectly at super speed during the frames) but Gege kinda got lost in the rule lawyering of the skill.
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Jan 28, 2024 06:36
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Jerkface posted:king crimsons makes way more sense since youre just erasing time or whatever, the thing that makes frame trap make less sense is the enemy needing to do it plus becoming a picture after King crimson is simple enough that I can explain it in four words 'You lag everyone's servers` I have reread the 24 frames stuff at least two or three times and I have no earthly idea how that works in practice.
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Jan 28, 2024 22:32
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You lag everyone and ALSO more importantly everything you see will happen no matter what you do unless you interfere directly. Meanwhile 24 frames is just preplanning your moves in the next second which seemingly also lets you stack speed over time letting you move like a madman within what's generally possible. You can also use this on your opponent and they'll have no idea what to do unless you've sat down and explained your technique to them making it a free stun. Or are fast enough to learn just by watching you.
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Jan 29, 2024 00:17
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SyntheticPolygon posted:I bet Kenny was a cooler guy than most other heads of the Kamo. Sure he's an insane terrorist sociopath but also he's kinda funny. when he did the cat face thing against takaba i decided i was on his side
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Jan 29, 2024 00:29
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Caros posted:King crimson is simple enough that I can explain it in four words this is unrelated to jjk but this is the best explanation for king crimson i've ever read lol. i love part 5 dearly and did not have a mental image for how that poo poo worked in my head at all.
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Jan 29, 2024 00:32
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Caros posted:King crimson is simple enough that I can explain it in four words "You force everyone to animate their movements. If its not smooth they get hurt"
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Jan 29, 2024 02:34
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tbp posted:this is unrelated to jjk but this is the best explanation for king crimson i've ever read lol. i love part 5 dearly and did not have a mental image for how that poo poo worked in my head at all. the best explanation of king crimson is when tserriednich's power in hxh is explained in detail
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Jan 29, 2024 03:47
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:"You force everyone to animate their movements. If its not smooth they get hurt" okay and what does that mean what is smooth and how does one smoothly jump between 24 locked positions Valentin fucked around with this message at 03:58 on Jan 29, 2024 |
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Jan 29, 2024 03:56
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Valentin posted:okay and what does that mean It means you follow the movements he laid out or you freeze in place? It literally tells you, I’m not understanding the confusion. Are you getting stuck in the idea of the opponent knowing about it? If that’s the issue, they don’t know about it unless he specifically reveals it to them, which as Choso says when he fights Naoya, they don’t have to because they just overwhelm the opponent and they don’t need a strength tradeoff for revealing it. The anime makes it even more clear, they show him tracing movements he sets out and follows perfectly
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Jan 29, 2024 05:12
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Valentin posted:okay and what does that mean The text and images of the manga show this off and elaborate on it extensively. You plan your movement and then have to copy that plan exactly or you're stunned. Following the plan correctly is the smoothly bit. Also, "jumping between 24 locked positions" is just...how animation/moving pictures work? Have you seen a flip book before?
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Jan 29, 2024 05:28
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People have had some very legitimate complaints about JJK in this thread. "The frame rate power is too confusing" may not be one of them.
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Jan 29, 2024 06:39
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The Puppy Bowl posted:People have had some very legitimate complaints about JJK in this thread. "The frame rate power is too confusing" may not be one of them. When some posters started saying King loving Crimson made sense and was easier to parse, you just knew it was disingenuous. It took another manga (Hunter x Hunter) to make anything coherent out of that mess.
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Jan 29, 2024 08:29
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The Puppy Bowl posted:People have had some very legitimate complaints about JJK in this thread. "The frame rate power is too confusing" may not be one of them. i don't think it's really confusing but it was convoluted in a way that didn't really add anything to it
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Jan 29, 2024 08:35
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The greater JJK world building that always annoyed me was the Gojo clan being one of the three great clans. They say it’s a one man clan now so what happened to the rest of them? Or if they mean metaphorically then still where are the rest of them? It made me think that the third great clan was undecided then he’d left it so long he just made Gojo the third great clan.
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Jan 29, 2024 11:52
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EmmyOk posted:The greater JJK world building that always annoyed me was the Gojo clan being one of the three great clans. They say it’s a one man clan now so what happened to the rest of them? Or if they mean metaphorically then still where are the rest of them? It made me think that the third great clan was undecided then he’d left it so long he just made Gojo the third great clan. One Man Team just means he’s the only member of the clan that notable. The Gojo clan is notable for their family containing the Six Eyes and every time someone with it is born that person will be Clan Head. Like here is the definition. “A group or team that relies solely on one person within that team.”
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Jan 29, 2024 14:18
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MonsterEnvy posted:One Man Team just means he’s the only member of the clan that notable. The Gojo clan is notable for their family containing the Six Eyes and every time someone with it is born that person will be Clan Head. Yeah I always took it to mean that but I think it's strange still that not a single other person in his family or life has been mentioned outside of the random person with an umbrella when he saw Toji. e: Like did they have no input after he was sealed and so on or were they happy to see him go too? That should be interesting to hear about but we never got it.
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Jan 29, 2024 14:30
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Asuron posted:When some posters started saying King loving Crimson made sense and was easier to parse, you just knew it was disingenuous. It took another manga (Hunter x Hunter) to make anything coherent out of that mess. What? King Crimson *is* easy to understand. 'I can remove myself from a specific segment of time but everything else in that segment of time continues to happen as if I had not done that.' My understanding is that a lot of people read absolute shitscans rather than it not making sense. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 15:44 on Jan 29, 2024 |
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Jan 29, 2024 15:42
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I think my only gripe with King Crimson is just how Araki was inconsistent on whether or not Diavolo could interact with the world while time was skipped. He initially kidnapped Trish but had to wait to kill Polneraff until after the skipped time resumed as the main examples. Beyond that the ability is pretty straightforward.
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Jan 29, 2024 15:49
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Brought To You By posted:I think my only gripe with King Crimson is just how Araki was inconsistent on whether or not Diavolo could interact with the world while time was skipped. He initially kidnapped Trish but had to wait to kill Polneraff until after the skipped time resumed as the main examples. Beyond that the ability is pretty straightforward. Any action Diavolo would take during the erases time still happens (i.e kidnapping Trish). However if he wants to change what he does he can't interact until time resumes.
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Jan 29, 2024 15:54
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lih posted:really this is a lot of gege's powers, he's aiming for what jjba or hxh do but doesn't get there as consistently and has admitted as much This is pretty much where I'm at as well, and I think it goes a long way to explain what's happening in JJK. A consistent theme in the manga is: Gege wants to pick and choose from established works to create a holistic vision and execution. It's not a bad tactic, but if you want to take a basket of existing ideas and refine them, you actually have to REFINE them, which is the issue here. His initial execution is usually fairly strong, it's just the follow through that gets him. Which seems to make him panic, probably due to the impossible timing of weekly serialization. And before you know it, the idea that was so strong initially either fizzles out, gets written out, or doesn't have a defined end game. The biggest tell is how Gege has completely removed sense of place from the work, entirely. The use of place is an essential part of storytelling, and serves to anchor the story in a way that makes it easier to understand and conceptualize. A provocative narrative layers plot threading, sense of place, and characterization to create a whole that is stronger than its parts. But JJK has been stripped so methodically of its complexity that at this point it's basically a 2 dimensional story; this character does this. This character does that. Wait for 2 weeks to see what this character does! It's the most simplistic form of storytelling and is honestly not that different from playing with action figures. It also reduces the possiblity space until the only really dramatic result you can conjure is a character dying, so that's all that really happens now. Characterization payoffs have long since dried up because you need to plant and nurture those payoffs. Location-based interests are also off the table since there's, in effect, no location. The manga could be occurring in a white room for all the story cares at this point. It's still fun though  and if this is what it takes for Gege to have an ok standard of living during serialization, then fair enough. Not everyone is Oda, nor should they be. The rub is just that the bones of JJK are (were) incredible but ultimately had to be almost completely and utterly sacrificed in favor of what's doable within Gege's style of work. Which I assume is the source of much of the ongoing frustration.
Taima fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Jan 29, 2024 |
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Jan 29, 2024 15:58
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ImpAtom posted:Any action Diavolo would take during the erases time still happens (i.e kidnapping Trish). However if he wants to change what he does he can't interact until time resumes. As far as I remember that's not how the ability is described. Diavolo is always conscious of what happens during the skipped time and always able to move as he pleases. He's very much DIO when The World is activated except instead of frozen time, everyone else is locked into their current actions.
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Jan 29, 2024 16:15
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Brought To You By posted:As far as I remember that's not how the ability is described. Diavolo is always conscious of what happens during the skipped time and always able to move as he pleases. He's very much DIO when The World is activated except instead of frozen time, everyone else is locked into their current actions. No, it is. Diavolo has two powers: the power to project what will happen in the future from his forehead thingy (which he projects onto his hair) and the power to erase time. The vision he gets from his forehead thingy will always, 100%, without fail happen. (This is a big part of the Metallica fight since only the head-thing is available there.)The power to erase time means that he can cut himself out from that AND walk around/reposition himself, but he can't direct interact with the world while he does that. So if Diavolo sees himself kidnapping Trish on his head thing then Trish is getting kidnapped 100% no matter what, even if Diavolo moves around during the frozen time and makes the act impossible.
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Jan 29, 2024 16:28
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lih posted:i don't think it's really confusing but it was convoluted in a way that didn't really add anything to it I can see where Gege was going regarding worldbuilding by conceiving Projection as an ancient inherited CT that evolved into its current iteration from the concept of animation being integrated into culture, but it's such a subtle, small background detail a reader wouldn't really piece it together without him saying it out loud. In the end I think it's just like Hakari's CT; he's probably having fun writing a fairly straightforward effect come about from a convoluted ruleset, plus it gives him an avenue to get weird with it later if he so chooses.
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Jan 29, 2024 17:22
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