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ImpAtom posted:No, it is. Diavolo has two powers: the power to project what will happen in the future from his forehead thingy (which he projects onto his hair) and the power to erase time. The vision he gets from his forehead thingy will always, 100%, without fail happen. (This is a big part of the Metallica fight since only the head-thing is available there.)The power to erase time means that he can cut himself out from that AND walk around/reposition himself, but he can't direct interact with the world while he does that.
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Jan 29, 2024 18:44
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Brought To You By posted:If it was his fate to kidnap Trish then it would have been Bruno's fate to react to her being kidnapped from a sealed elevator. King Crimson is a close range stand and not that much faster than stands like Sticky Fingers (unless the stats say different) so there's no believable reason for Bruno not to have tried to defend trish especially while holding her hand. So the total lack of reaction from Bruno indicates he was never aware of that attack which is consistent with most other usages of King Crimson where Diavolo is not . But those other instances make the point that Diavolo can't touch anything either whichis why he attacks right as the time skip ends. The same thing happens when Giorno/narancia gets killed. Nobody reacts to it as though they didn't see it but why wouldn't they perceive it while on high alert. The (x) seconds of skipped time are lost to the people within it, so even if they were trying to respond they wouldn't remember that they were trying to respond. They may have tried to do something but since they forgot entirely about it after the time skip was done they don't remember what. As far as "Well, how could someone do (x) in (y) seconds, the stats don't say that", it is because it's fuckin' anime. Everyone and everything functions at hilariously super speeds, especially in Jojo where Dio's 7 seconds of stopped time allow him a monologue and enough time to go, find a road roller, and come back to drop it on Jotaro.
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Jan 29, 2024 18:49
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I like the animation power and think it makes sense. The user defines 24 actions and then they are 'played' by the CT within one second. This is why they mention it's so important for Naobito and Naoya to be really good at prediction. They need to line things up before they hit 'play' to make sure their attacks intersect with where their enemy will be etc. Freezing an opponent is neat too imo and feels like a nice complimentary ability but I also don't think it's that necessary. It just uses some form of temporary binding contract to make an opponent follow the same rules you do. Whether or not an enemy could 'play' isn't clear thought it is doubtful. It's unlikely we'd ever see anyone be able to avoid being frozen even after being told how the ability works. The infinite acceleration I think comes from being able to stack movements. Normally if the users try to cheat by having 24 movements that let them fly or move at supersonic speeds they'd freeze themselves. I think though if they use their first 24 moves to build speed, their next 24 moves can take the current speed as the new starting speed. Stacking the ability like that to build up mach speeds as the starting speed used to define the 24 moves is increased each time. Diavolo can't affect people during erasure and any weirdness around Trish is the usual "Araki hadn't fully decided on how the power worked yet" imo. As villain powers go it's a pretty minor example for him too compared to The World initially having all Stand powers or who the hell shot Johnny Jouster
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Jan 29, 2024 19:18
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my big problem with it is that he invented this ability and then did the weird "if you get touched you also play by the rules" and then didn't have an opponent get touched but be able to use it as well. Then it'd be a real cat and mouse game as the 2 people try to predict the others movements while maintaining the rules. Like wouldn't this be broken vs Sukuna? If he doesn't know whats going on he'd get trapped constantly (or maybe he just wouldn't move and would stand there scowling for 24 frames). Maybe Yuta should use it.
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Jan 29, 2024 19:23
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Jerkface posted:my big problem with it is that he invented this ability and then did the weird "if you get touched you also play by the rules" and then didn't have an opponent get touched but be able to use it as well. Then it'd be a real cat and mouse game as the 2 people try to predict the others movements while maintaining the rules. It just freezes you once every time you get touched as far as I can tell. It’s also much weaker when you know how it works. Maki was just able to time a nuke to the jaw because you can’t dodge out of your set path. Dagon didn’t seem to take that much damage from the frozen hits he took. It would have paired well with Higuruma and that strategy though. I agree I’d loved to have seen way more of it but I feel that way about a lot of cool abilities Gege sets up.
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Jan 29, 2024 19:26
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A lot of stuff would be broken vs sukuna. But he's history's greatest sorceror so somehow it never actually is a problem for him.
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Jan 29, 2024 19:27
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It also gave us this very important page imo
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Jan 29, 2024 19:27
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EmmyOk posted:It also gave us this very important page imo True, that page owns.
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Jan 29, 2024 19:28
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EmmyOk posted:Whether or not an enemy could 'play' isn't clear thought it is doubtful. It's unlikely we'd ever see anyone be able to avoid being frozen even after being told how the ability works. Jerkface posted:my big problem with it is that he invented this ability and then did the weird "if you get touched you also play by the rules" and then didn't have an opponent get touched but be able to use it as well. Then it'd be a real cat and mouse game as the 2 people try to predict the others movements while maintaining the rules. Maki did after being hit by Naoya a bunch, she figured it out and countered him. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Jan 29, 2024 |
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Jan 29, 2024 19:31
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EmmyOk posted:It just freezes you once every time you get touched as far as I can tell. IIRC touching someone just forces them to abide by the rules of the CT and if you don't abide you get frame trapped. Obviously most people who get touched won't know wtf is going on and would get frame trapped.
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Jan 29, 2024 19:32
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MonsterEnvy posted:Maki did after being hit by Naoya a bunch, she figured it out and countered him. Sure but I’m not sure if Maki is able to define and execute 24 perfect movements because of her awakened body or if it’s the CT effect.
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Jan 29, 2024 19:35
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Jerkface posted:IIRC touching someone just forces them to abide by the rules of the CT and if you don't abide you get frame trapped. Obviously most people who get touched won't know wtf is going on and would get frame trapped. Yeah I think this is correct and I think even knowing how it works wouldn’t be able to move like that.
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Jan 29, 2024 19:36
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Also it’s only this time rereading the chapter after people mentioned that I realised he tagged her and is expecting her to freeze as he comes on for his final hit. Cool lol
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Jan 29, 2024 19:39
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EmmyOk posted:Sure but I’m not sure if Maki is able to define and execute 24 perfect movements because of her awakened body or if it’s the CT effect.   Earlier in the fight we see her counting to try and figure it out. Edit: Ahh you read it and figured that out.
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Jan 29, 2024 19:40
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MonsterEnvy posted:Maki did after being hit by Naoya a bunch, she figured it out and countered him. She countered him by using the technique's weakness against him (waiting for him to move to a spot and her fist was there waiting). I want someone to actually get in the weeds on the ability and counter it. Maki's defeat of the Naoya is like the "simplest" version of beating the technique and just goes back to its usage being underwhelming and nothing of real interest being done with it. EmmyOk posted:It also gave us this very important page imo This is, ultimately, the coolest thing to come out of it. Strong agree, old man.
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Jan 29, 2024 19:41
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Mai has the most useless ability in the series, right? We havent seen anything else like that?
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Jan 29, 2024 19:46
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No Wave posted:Mai has the most useless ability in the series, right? We havent seen anything else like that? Yorozu had the same ability, but more cursed energy so she could actually use it effectively. Being able to construct something from nothing using cursed energy is probably really broken if you think about it for 2 seconds so you gotta write in some hard limitations to avoid scope creep. Like Mai could only make X number of things a day before getting too tired.
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Jan 29, 2024 19:51
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Reggie Star is probably one of my favourite fights in the whole manga
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Jan 29, 2024 19:54
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Jerkface posted:She countered him by using the technique's weakness against him (waiting for him to move to a spot and her fist was there waiting). I want someone to actually get in the weeds on the ability and counter it. Maki's defeat of the Naoya is like the "simplest" version of beating the technique and just goes back to its usage being underwhelming and nothing of real interest being done with it. She got tapped and should have frozen but she figured out the 24 frames thing and was able to move without getting frozen. Jerkface posted:Yorozu had the same ability, but more cursed energy so she could actually use it effectively. Being able to construct something from nothing using cursed energy is probably really broken if you think about it for 2 seconds so you gotta write in some hard limitations to avoid scope creep. Like Mai could only make X number of things a day before getting too tired. Yorozu was also having trouble with the massive drain of CE her Technique uses. But managed to figure out the best stuff to make to maximize it, namely the liquid metal that she could control by pumping CE into it, and the Insect Armour to take advantage of how efficient Insects are. Mai just didn't have the CE for it effective even in that way, as she only had enough to make a single bullet a day. (And even that strained her as she started bleeding after making it) MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Jan 29, 2024 |
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Jan 29, 2024 20:29
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EmmyOk posted:The infinite acceleration I think comes from being able to stack movements. Normally if the users try to cheat by having 24 movements that let them fly or move at supersonic speeds they'd freeze themselves. I think though if they use their first 24 moves to build speed, their next 24 moves can take the current speed as the new starting speed. Stacking the ability like that to build up mach speeds as the starting speed used to define the 24 moves is increased each time. I think this is basically it, but it's just because of the "physics limitations." It's considered "physically impossible" to accelerate beyond a certain point within a second, but since they're already moving fast at the end it's no longer "physically impossible." This presumably becomes precarious because it would be harder to accurately "create" the frames at the new levels of speed. Maybe it's also necessary to use frames to slow down afterwards? Not sure how that would work, since he'd be stuck going insanely fast at the end of several seconds.
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Jan 29, 2024 20:37
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Ytlaya posted:I think this is basically it, but it's just because of the "physics limitations." It's considered "physically impossible" to accelerate beyond a certain point within a second, but since they're already moving fast at the end it's no longer "physically impossible." Everyone standing around chatting waiting for you to gradually slow down as your run in circles to avoid liquifying your guts
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Jan 29, 2024 20:49
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MonsterEnvy posted:She got tapped and should have frozen but she figured out the 24 frames thing and was able to move without getting frozen. She didn't move without being frozen, she just waited for 1 second and then put her fist at the end of Naoya's trajectory because she could "see" their movements due to her insane body. I can't believe projection sorcery got like 3 fights and a domain expansion.
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Jan 29, 2024 20:49
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Jerkface posted:She didn't move without being frozen, she just waited for 1 second and then put her fist at the end of Naoya's trajectory because she could "see" their movements due to her insane body. I can't believe projection sorcery got like 3 fights and a domain expansion. The domain expansion injecting frames into you on a cellular level was a little stupid, I’ve got to say
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Jan 29, 2024 21:11
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Jerkface posted:She didn't move without being frozen, she just waited for 1 second and then put her fist at the end of Naoya's trajectory because she could "see" their movements due to her insane body. I can't believe projection sorcery got like 3 fights and a domain expansion. Yes she did. Not moving counts for being frozen, and Naoya expected her to be frozen when he turned around and attacked at super speed.
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Jan 29, 2024 21:30
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ImpAtom posted:What? King Crimson *is* easy to understand. You say this and then write multiple posts discussing how you think it works with another poster who has another interpretation of how it works Not gonna lie that’s pretty funny. Let’s be clear though,King Crimson did not make sense and it’s because Araki was making up the rules as he went along . I really enjoy Jojo, but using it as a point of comparison for consistency or logic is just uhhhh…. no. It’s just poo poo Araki throws at a wall because he likes an idea conceptually, which can be really fun but that’s all there is to it. Hunter x Hunter made characters with what is essentially King Crimson and Golden Experience, but actually gave them logical rules and consistency. The projection power has very straightforward rules, nothing arcane or difficult to comprehend about it. It even has an illustration about how it works Asuron fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Jan 29, 2024 |
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Jan 29, 2024 21:43
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Asuron posted:You say this and then write multiple posts discussing how you think it works with another poster who has another interpretation of how it works It isn't 'how I think it works.' It is literally how it described and shown to work in the series. Jojos is not HxH level but a lot of the "uh actually it makes no sense" stuff tends to be people either ignoring stuff actually stated onscreen or not understanding why a character doesn't use a specific gimmick every single fight. Like I'm not a huge Jojo fan, I've only read through what they have up on Viz's app, but King Crimson isn't the confusing part of that series. (Like honestly I was more confused at how the hell Dio's coffin worked at the start of part 3 than anything involving King Crimson.) ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Jan 29, 2024 |
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Jan 29, 2024 21:48
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Taima posted:But JJK has been stripped so methodically of its complexity that at this point it's basically a 2 dimensional story; this character does this. This character does that. Wait for 2 weeks to see what this character does! Yes, and I kinda want the fight to be over with so we can hopefully go back to something more interesting.
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Jan 29, 2024 22:47
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Jerkface posted:She didn't move without being frozen, she just waited for 1 second and then put her fist at the end of Naoya's trajectory because she could "see" their movements due to her insane body. I can't believe projection sorcery got like 3 fights and a domain expansion. I think Naoya’s tap and coming back round to punch her is one sequence at the speed he’s going at. So he expects her to freeze if she tries to counterattack. However she’s understood what is happening and is able to land her counter due to understanding the movement rule instead of freezing. That’s my current interpretation atm
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Jan 29, 2024 22:48
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rkd_ posted:Yes, and I kinda want the fight to be over with so we can hopefully go back to something more interesting. Weren't you like a few pages ago getting confused over what the manga calling someone a "genius like gojo" meant? I'm not sure it's a lack of complexity that's ruining the comic for you.
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Jan 29, 2024 22:51
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EmmyOk posted:I think Naoya’s tap and coming back round to punch her is one sequence at the speed he’s going at. So he expects her to freeze if she tries to counterattack. However she’s understood what is happening and is able to land her counter due to understanding the movement rule instead of freezing. That’s my current interpretation atm My interpretation of it is based on the manga explaining the touch rule in that sequence and Maki thinking to herself "Failure means 1 second" - and the entire conceit of the ability meaning Naoya is moving in 1 second increments and then she says "You make 24 movements per second with this body I can finally see that" and slams him. With her holding the sumo pose the entire time it leads me to think she just waited the 1 second and then bopped him.
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Jan 29, 2024 22:58
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It should have played out like saitama vs sonic.
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Jan 29, 2024 23:01
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No Wave posted:It should have played out like saitama vs sonic. everyone knows cursed energy is stored in the balls
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Jan 29, 2024 23:02
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Jerkface posted:My interpretation of it is based on the manga explaining the touch rule in that sequence and Maki thinking to herself "Failure means 1 second" - and the entire conceit of the ability meaning Naoya is moving in 1 second increments and then she says "You make 24 movements per second with this body I can finally see that" and slams him. With her holding the sumo pose the entire time it leads me to think she just waited the 1 second and then bopped him. That's not Maki thinking, that's the narrator. Failure means one second, but she didn't fail is the thing.
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Jan 29, 2024 23:08
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I think it's an interesting contrast that Maki vs Naoya is decided in fractions of a second while Hakari was invincible for a solid 15 minutes vs kashimo.
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Jan 29, 2024 23:19
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ImpAtom posted:The (x) seconds of skipped time are lost to the people within it, so even if they were trying to respond they wouldn't remember that they were trying to respond. They may have tried to do something but since they forgot entirely about it after the time skip was done they don't remember what. But that's what I'm saying. Bruno made no obvious move to defend Trish even in the skipped time so he's not presented in a way where he could have been aware of Diavolo at all. It's not egregious because I can chalk it up to being an early utilization of the power and Araki has and will change stuff about stands as time goes on. But if your idea for Fate worked why didn't he just impale Poleraff during the frozen time? Why would he have to set up a way to blind him and then hit him from behind and why would Polneraff's method of tracking the timeskip even work if he was already dead? By the colleseum it's more firm that the attack from King Crimson comes after the skip not during so stealing Trish doesn't work anymore. MonsterEnvy posted:She figured it out.  We've also seen how it can work on people that appear to either be finishing a motion or completely stationary.   and   So how still does someone have to stay to not be subject to the power?
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Jan 29, 2024 23:36
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No Wave posted:I think it's an interesting contrast that Maki vs Naoya is decided in fractions of a second while Hakari was invincible for a solid 15 minutes vs kashimo. I think Kashimo really undersold how absurd his unkillability is. Kashimo’s lighting was described as a guaranteed hit outside a domain. Pretty much anyone else wouldn’t be able to just keep taking unavoidable kill shots or even handle his constant lightning damage on top of blocking with CE. Kashimo even mentioned Hakari getting faster as the fight wore on. I guess as part of Hakari’s character of being on a streak. In short as always Hakari ftmfw
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Jan 29, 2024 23:46
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Brought To You By posted:But that's what I'm saying. Bruno made no obvious move to defend Trish even in the skipped time so he's not presented in a way where he could have been aware of Diavolo at all. It's not egregious because I can chalk it up to being an early utilization of the power and Araki has and will change stuff about stands as time goes on. But if your idea for Fate worked why didn't he just impale Poleraff during the frozen time? Why would he have to set up a way to blind him and then hit him from behind and why would Polneraff's method of tracking the timeskip even work if he was already dead? By the colleseum it's more firm that the attack from King Crimson comes after the skip not during so stealing Trish doesn't work anymore. Because as presented in that scene, the dude hopped down from the elevator, chopped off Trish's hand, and scurried out in like two seconds. Which is hilariously fast for someone do to all that but Jojo isn't really the kind of thing that cares about that. The entire reason he chops off her hand in the first place is because it has to happen quickly! As far as Polneraff, that's literally the point of the fight. Polneraff's Silver Chariot is incredibly fast (again, its established power) and he is aware of how Diavolo's ability works, so any attempt to get close to him is doomed because he can use the splatters of blood to judge when time is stopped and instantly have Silver Chariot attack all around him. Like Diavolo tries to do that first and gets hit for his trouble. He needed to blind Polneraff so he'd be caught off guard long enough for him to actually hit him! That's the entire reason he blinds him because otherwise Silver Chariot is too fast and will kick his rear end. Like it's honestly not that different from Projection Sorcery. You have a set path you move on and the rigidity of that path is important. Diavolo's power is that he can choose to cut out a certain segment of that path so the consequences don't happen to him, but that doesn't mean the consequences wouldn't still have happened if he didn't. If Diavolo charged in without using his power, Polneraff probably would have stabbed him 27 times and he would have died. So instead he cut out the part where the 27 stabs happen and repositioned himself behind Polneraff, preparing to hit him, but Silver Chariot is almost as fast as Star Platinum so he is able to respond in the brief period between time restarting and Diavolo landing a blow. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Jan 29, 2024 |
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Jan 29, 2024 23:51
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Brought To You By posted:So how still does someone have to stay to not be subject to the power? Staying still doesn't matter. After Naoya taps Maki, she had figured out how the power works, and so planned the next second over 24 movements to counter Naoya.
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Jan 29, 2024 23:52
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But what does 24 movements mean? One normal second long movement divided 24 times teleporting yourself a little bit between each one?
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Jan 29, 2024 23:55
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MonsterEnvy posted:Staying still doesn't matter. After Naoya taps Maki, she had figured out how the power works, and so planned the next second over 24 movements to counter Naoya. Yeah, Maki was just able to make 24 movements in 1 second. (The specifics of this aren't clear but whatever, she's just good enough to do it.) No Wave posted:But what does 24 movements mean? What we're told is that it has to be a smooth movement, so whatever is small enough to keep your movement looking smooth, ala animation frames. Just like you can't make too many changes in an animation frame without it looking jerky, the same rules apply to your physical body.
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Jan 29, 2024 23:55
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