Warhammer: After 18 years, finally an end

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Mikojan: May 12, 2010

Just got to the point where Dorn arrives to assist Valdor, and immediately after the tide of deranged blood angels crashing into the back of the sons of horus.

I don't think I have ever hooted and hollered so vehemently

# ? Jan 30, 2024 13:41

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 04:35

Arc Hammer: Mar 4, 2013; Got any deathsticks?

Zephon, too depressed to be afflicted by brain damaging rage.

# ? Jan 30, 2024 14:15

Potato Salad: Oct 23, 2014; nobody cares

Demiurge4 posted:

On the last bit of duel, spoilers for the ending. When the Emperor says "I wait for you and forgive you" what is Abnett signifying here? Are they scrapping the soul obliteration and possibly bringing him back in the new timeline? It seems very significant that despite having jettisoned his emotional core, the Emperor still hesitates to kill his son.

The Athames work by splitting space, time, reality, souls, anything. There's still this massive amount of mystery around what exactly just happened to Horus, but return and redemption is apparently on the table for every living Primarch, traitors included.

I also noticed that detail where the forgiveness did not come from a place of compassion or love, it came from a place of cold calculation. I think the the ruinous powers must have realized something that we are not privy to, then they panicked and suddenly started trying to charge Horus' batteries as fast as possible at the end.

Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 15:31 on Jan 30, 2024

# ? Jan 30, 2024 15:25

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Volume three

It seems like E was talking to the knife

been betrayed. You cannot ask Him for forgiveness. You don�t dare, and you can�t speak anyway. But He can see it in your eyes. You were too weak to resist them then, and you will be too weak in another moment when they relent and replenish you with their abominable gifts. Your eyes beg Him for mercy. A son to his father. End this. End it now, if you can. If that is even possible. End it before it is too late. If you can�t do it, no one can. The burning stops. The psychic beam abates. You sway, gasping. Your father has a knife. An old stone thing. What is it? It�s so small in His hand, so ugly. That won�t do it. That won�t be enough. He seems to hesitate, reluctant. You clench, in sudden spasm and convulsion, and cry out. The power is returning. It is flowing back into you with great rapidity, as though the Old Four are suddenly desperate to restore their gifts. What do they know? What have they seen that makes them act in such haste?

Your father looks at the knife.

+I wait for you and I forgive you.+

He drives it into your heart.

The knife is xeno tech and was destined - maybe - to he the knife that killed E . That was Ollie�s plan . Maybe E knew that it was meant for him and - in the future - he knows it�s his ultimate destiny. The I forgive you is to the knife for killing his son.

He never talks to Horus as E

Anyway just my imho

Thinking about it he could also be taking to Oll against whose destiny is to kill E with the knife

Maybe ?

I don�t think he�s talking to H

Edit

I just remembered that knife is gone ? Well there are other shards like it that skills exist

euphronius fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Jan 30, 2024

# ? Jan 30, 2024 15:33

Arc Hammer: Mar 4, 2013; Got any deathsticks?

Also remember that Emps was following up on Loken's genuine appeal to Horus's humanity. That cold calculus and deception only worked because of Loken's truly heartfelt effort.

# ? Jan 30, 2024 15:52

Gravitas Shortfall: Jul 17, 2007; Utility is seven-eighths Proximity.

I'm pretty sure Oll's dead as well, though I guess that's slightly ambiguous. Horus would have killed the Emperor without the Latern powerup, destroying a lesser perpetual like Oll would have been child's play

# ? Jan 30, 2024 15:52

lines: Aug 18, 2013; She, laughing in mockery, changed herself into a wren and flew away.

euphronius posted:

Volume three

It seems like E was talking to the knife

been betrayed. You cannot ask Him for forgiveness. You don’t dare, and you can’t speak anyway. But He can see it in your eyes. You were too weak to resist them then, and you will be too weak in another moment when they relent and replenish you with their abominable gifts. Your eyes beg Him for mercy. A son to his father. End this. End it now, if you can. If that is even possible. End it before it is too late. If you can’t do it, no one can. The burning stops. The psychic beam abates. You sway, gasping. Your father has a knife. An old stone thing. What is it? It’s so small in His hand, so ugly. That won’t do it. That won’t be enough. He seems to hesitate, reluctant. You clench, in sudden spasm and convulsion, and cry out. The power is returning. It is flowing back into you with great rapidity, as though the Old Four are suddenly desperate to restore their gifts. What do they know? What have they seen that makes them act in such haste?

Your father looks at the knife.

+I wait for you and I forgive you.+

He drives it into your heart.

The knife is xeno tech and was destined - maybe - to he the knife that killed E . That was Ollie’s plan . Maybe E knew that it was meant for him and - in the future - he knows it’s his ultimate destiny. The I forgive you is to the knife for killing his son.

He never talks to Horus as E

Anyway just my imho

Thinking about it he could also be taking to Oll against whose destiny is to kill E with the knife

Maybe ?

I don’t think he’s talking to H

Edit

I just remembered that knife is gone ? Well there are other shards like it that skills exist

The knife isn't xenotech. It's not one of the athames that was made from the anathame. It's the one in the John French short story Athame - it began on Terra, it's a Terran sharp rock that's been used for significant murders over time.

# ? Jan 30, 2024 16:11

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Ok yeah
I got confused on the provenance

# ? Jan 30, 2024 16:15

DAD LOST MY IPOD: Feb 3, 2012; Fats Dominar is on the case

It�s extremely weird that some random word bearer gave that thing to a human auxiliary. Probably didn�t know what it was. Although it�s equally likely that Erebus set it up, because he WANTED Oll to get the thing and bring it to Terra for him. He planned to use it to kill the Emperor, but didn�t reckon on getting overwhelmed by Actae/Katt.

# ? Jan 30, 2024 16:53

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

do the good guys win

# ? Jan 30, 2024 16:58

OPAONI: Jul 23, 2021

Mel Mudkiper posted:

do the good guys win

No, the Emperor lived.

# ? Jan 30, 2024 17:02

Arc Hammer: Mar 4, 2013; Got any deathsticks?

Mel Mudkiper posted:

do the good guys win

It's the End and the Death.

# ? Jan 30, 2024 17:02

D-Pad: Jun 28, 2006

Demiurge4 posted:

On the last bit of duel, spoilers for the ending. When the Emperor says "I wait for you and forgive you" what is Abnett signifying here? Are they scrapping the soul obliteration and possibly bringing him back in the new timeline? It seems very significant that despite having jettisoned his emotional core, the Emperor still hesitates to kill his son.

Yeah this part really jumped out at me and made me wonder what exactly was meant by that.

euphronius posted:

Volume three

It seems like E was talking to the knife

been betrayed. You cannot ask Him for forgiveness. You don�t dare, and you can�t speak anyway. But He can see it in your eyes. You were too weak to resist them then, and you will be too weak in another moment when they relent and replenish you with their abominable gifts. Your eyes beg Him for mercy. A son to his father. End this. End it now, if you can. If that is even possible. End it before it is too late. If you can�t do it, no one can. The burning stops. The psychic beam abates. You sway, gasping. Your father has a knife. An old stone thing. What is it? It�s so small in His hand, so ugly. That won�t do it. That won�t be enough. He seems to hesitate, reluctant. You clench, in sudden spasm and convulsion, and cry out. The power is returning. It is flowing back into you with great rapidity, as though the Old Four are suddenly desperate to restore their gifts. What do they know? What have they seen that makes them act in such haste?

Your father looks at the knife.

+I wait for you and I forgive you.+

He drives it into your heart.

The knife is xeno tech and was destined - maybe - to he the knife that killed E . That was Ollie�s plan . Maybe E knew that it was meant for him and - in the future - he knows it�s his ultimate destiny. The I forgive you is to the knife for killing his son.

He never talks to Horus as E

Anyway just my imho

Thinking about it he could also be taking to Oll against whose destiny is to kill E with the knife

Maybe ?

I don�t think he�s talking to H

Edit

I just remembered that knife is gone ? Well there are other shards like it that skills exist

I like this explanation but I dunno.

It could be that he was talking to the power or demon behind the knife. Like if it was involved in 7 other big murders plus the biggest (Horus) it stands to reason it isn't just a knife but probably created a demon in the warp. Just because the physical knife went away doesn't mean the reflection in the warp did. It could also be Drach'nyen in a different part of its life cycle since the life cycles of demons was a big point in the book. Maybe that will be the reveal we get during Black Legion 3?

# ? Jan 30, 2024 17:06

Potato Salad: Oct 23, 2014; nobody cares

Mel Mudkiper posted:

do the good guys win

the squats are still missing, so who knows

# ? Jan 30, 2024 17:38

TehRedWheelbarrow: Mar 16, 2011; Fan of Britches

Potato Salad posted:

the squats are still missing, so who knows

https://www.warhammer.com/en-US/shop/warhammer-40000/xenos-armies/leagues-of-votann

or are they?

# ? Jan 30, 2024 17:46

Potato Salad: Oct 23, 2014; nobody cares

I was under the impression GW has adamantly avowed the leagues do not consist of squats.

# ? Jan 30, 2024 18:22

TehRedWheelbarrow: Mar 16, 2011; Fan of Britches

cant trademark squat or squats, much like space marines.

but uh they are space dwarves.. hello?

# ? Jan 30, 2024 18:31

lines: Aug 18, 2013; She, laughing in mockery, changed herself into a wren and flew away.

D-Pad posted:

Yeah this part really jumped out at me and made me wonder what exactly was meant by that.

I like this explanation but I dunno.

It could be that he was talking to the power or demon behind the knife. Like if it was involved in 7 other big murders plus the biggest (Horus) it stands to reason it isn't just a knife but probably created a demon in the warp. Just because the physical knife went away doesn't mean the reflection in the warp did. It could also be Drach'nyen in a different part of its life cycle since the life cycles of demons was a big point in the book. Maybe that will be the reveal we get during Black Legion 3?

Most of the murders weren't anyone obviously of import. It's the fact of them that is important.

# ? Jan 30, 2024 18:37

Inspector_666: Oct 7, 2003; _{benny with the good hair}

Potato Salad posted:

I was under the impression GW has adamantly avowed the leagues do not consist of squats.

Maybe we would know for sure if they'd RELEASE A FUCKIN' BOOK ABOUT THEM :argh:

# ? Jan 30, 2024 18:39

lines: Aug 18, 2013; She, laughing in mockery, changed herself into a wren and flew away.

Playing in a Rogue Trader tabletop game soon and I have specifically requested that the GM put representatives of the Leagues into the subsector he's writing. But I wish we'd get an actual book!

# ? Jan 30, 2024 18:45

Potato Salad: Oct 23, 2014; nobody cares

TehRedWheelbarrow posted:

cant trademark squat or squats, much like space marines.

but uh they are space dwarves.. hello?

I'm just not convinced these are the abhumans we're looking for. The Leagues read like a Golden Age of Technology fork of human colonists that are now native to the galactic core rather than "all the squats got up and moved into the middle of the Ultima Segmentum, quite recently"

Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Jan 30, 2024

# ? Jan 30, 2024 18:47

TehRedWheelbarrow: Mar 16, 2011; Fan of Britches

maybe they are just the high techno ones? GW is always a mystery on how they do stuff.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/04/05/the-saga-of-the-squats-from-space-dwarfs-to-the-leagues-of-votann/

but Gee Dubs seems to disagree with your assessment.

# ? Jan 30, 2024 18:55

lines: Aug 18, 2013; She, laughing in mockery, changed herself into a wren and flew away.

Potato Salad posted:

I'm just not convinced these are the abhumans we're looking for. The Leagues read like a Golden Age of Technology fork of human colonists that are now native to the galactic core rather than "all the squats got up and moved into the middle of the Ultima Segmentum, quite recently"

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/04/05/the-saga-of-the-squats-from-space-dwarfs-to-the-leagues-of-votann/

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/05/06/revealed-squat-prospectors-hit-the-motherlode-in-the-ash-wastes/

The large-scale faction are the League of Votann, and they are explicitly the modern interpretation of the Squats - but technically, yeah, Squats are a different off-shoot/distant relation, and they show up in Necromunda sometimes.

I think the idea was that the Leagues are a "they aren't a joke" version of the Squats, like they have a more serious aesthetic, whereas the squats in Necromunda retain that "kinda funny lookin'" vibe. Morally they're all space dwarves.

Now, the real question is: when are they going to bring Lizardmen into 40k?

# ? Jan 30, 2024 18:57

Kylaer: Aug 4, 2007; I'm SURE walking around in a respirator at all times in an (even more) OPEN BIDENing society is definitely not a recipe for disaster and anyone that's not cool with getting harassed by CHUDs are cave dwellers. I've got good brain!

DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:

It�s extremely weird that some random word bearer gave that thing to a human auxiliary. Probably didn�t know what it was. Although it�s equally likely that Erebus set it up, because he WANTED Oll to get the thing and bring it to Terra for him. He planned to use it to kill the Emperor, but didn�t reckon on getting overwhelmed by Actae/Katt.

"I swore I left my athame here. Oh well, I'll make 5,000 more and just leave them lyin' around!"

WORD BEARERS: NO SENSE OF RIGHT AND WRONG.

# ? Jan 30, 2024 19:32

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Volume 3

I was rooting for the virus that would kill all space marines and primarchs to get released. That would have uh simplified things

# ? Jan 30, 2024 20:00

moths: Aug 25, 2004; I would also still appreciate some danger.

Pretty sure he was talking to Oll.

The knife was a reminder that Oll had once stabbed him, and had been planning to do it again. Oll was forgiven, and as a perpetual, may be waited for.

# ? Jan 30, 2024 21:58

lines: Aug 18, 2013; She, laughing in mockery, changed herself into a wren and flew away.

moths posted:

Pretty sure he was talking to Oll.

The knife was a reminder that Oll had once stabbed him, and had been planning to do it again. Oll was forgiven, and as a perpetual, may be waited for.

Oh I like this.

# ? Jan 30, 2024 22:02

TehRedWheelbarrow: Mar 16, 2011; Fan of Britches

lines posted:

Oh I like this.

yeah. im cool with the old guy.

# ? Jan 30, 2024 22:37

Potato Salad: Oct 23, 2014; nobody cares

lines posted:

Oh I like this.

# ? Jan 30, 2024 22:56

Gravitas Shortfall: Jul 17, 2007; Utility is seven-eighths Proximity.

Things I liked:

Previously, on The Primarchs. Love that little check-in with the absent Primarchs at the start of the book, and hints of the start of Angry Pete's path towards becoming a Daemon Prince.
Fo-get about it. Fo's "survival" made me grin. He's such a compelling Unification-era monster. I don't even need him to show up again, I just like that he got away in one form or another.
Limited Edition, Order Now. Leetu's is another survival that opens up all sorts of questions. What do you do with a Space Marine like that? Does he even have geneseed? Does he become part of the Grey Knights?
Chariots of Fly-er. Who let a drama kid become a Space Marine? Typhus's OTT entrance on chariot. was bonkers stuff, and far more interesting than the Dark Angels he was fighting.
I draw my trap card. I knew as soon as Horus described the spread of The Emperor's final draw that it was extremely significant, and could see what and who each card represented. Compare it to every hand that Horus draws - no subtlety at all, culminating in demon spam.
Pipe Bomb Promo. Love that in the warp-saturated environment of Terra, the Black Rage is not just a mental change but a partially physical one as well. Also darkly funny in places. "Because that's as far as you got."
Dorn. There was something extremely satisfying about how steadfast and competent he was, Everyone else is losing their poo poo, meanwhile he pops out of an eternity of torment and goes "better get back to work I guess". Found a random immortal psyker buried in some rubble? Here's my badge, go get help. Valdor's being an rear end in a top hat? Whatever man, we have a job to do.

Things I didn't like:

No twist. I suppose I was foolish to think that GW would allow a major change to the canon. The Dark King resolving in book 2 really took the wind out of any idea that events weren't quite what we were told they were, and everything played out pretty much as expected.
Big E Grows Another Health Bar. The fight absolutely needed to be epic in scope but I think maybe we could have done with one less "The Emperor is dead.. wait no he's not" moment. Got a bit repetitive for me.
Faceless Goons. The traitor legionnaires are reduced to extras for heroes to cut through. The only ones with actual character are Abaddon and Erebus. Obviously a deliberate choice, but I loved how in previous books we got POV chapters from traitors barely hanging onto sanity.

# ? Jan 31, 2024 11:00

Aaronicon: Oct 2, 2010; A BLOO BLOO ANYONE I DISAGREE WITH IS A "BAD PERSON" WHO DESERVES TO DIE PLEEEASE DONT FALL ALL OVER YOURSELF WHITEWASHING THEM A BLOO BLOO

Horus didn't die, he was just shunted around in time. Big E knows narrative is the overarching force of the universe with Chaos involved, so he's turning that on them and setting up the narrative of the Fallen Son returning as his father's champion on a quest for forgiveness, and that's enough narrative juice to make Horus the real God of Humanity and dominate the other Powers. He's still using his sons as tools and with him exorcising the last of his humanity and compassion he's finally able to go through with it and do what wins in the end: reject your own Godhood to empower someone enough by dangling a mad quest for forgiveness in front of them, to get all of Humanity united behind the most timeless of stories, to overwhelm the current Gods, and retire into the Webway as Second War Of Heaven burns realspace to the ground.

# ? Jan 31, 2024 12:32

lines: Aug 18, 2013; She, laughing in mockery, changed herself into a wren and flew away.

Aaronicon posted:

Horus didn't die, he was just shunted around in time. Big E knows narrative is the overarching force of the universe with Chaos involved, so he's turning that on them and setting up the narrative of the Fallen Son returning as his father's champion on a quest for forgiveness, and that's enough narrative juice to make Horus the real God of Humanity and dominate the other Powers. He's still using his sons as tools and with him exorcising the last of his humanity and compassion he's finally able to go through with it and do what wins in the end: reject your own Godhood to empower someone enough by dangling a mad quest for forgiveness in front of them, to get all of Humanity united behind the most timeless of stories, to overwhelm the current Gods, and retire into the Webway as Second War Of Heaven burns realspace to the ground.

I will say that if they brought back Horus in modern 40k as a kind of tarnished knight on a quest for redemption that would slap so incredibly hard?

# ? Jan 31, 2024 12:55

Gravitas Shortfall: Jul 17, 2007; Utility is seven-eighths Proximity.

Horus was a chump, keep him dead.

# ? Jan 31, 2024 13:04

Angry Lobster: May 16, 2011; Served with honor
and some clarified butter.

Gravitas Shortfall posted:

Horus was a chump, keep him dead.

Bring him back so the Blood Angels can kill him and stop being ragey bois.

# ? Jan 31, 2024 13:05

lines: Aug 18, 2013; She, laughing in mockery, changed herself into a wren and flew away.

Angry Lobster posted:

Bring him back so the Blood Angels can kill him and stop being ragey bois.

"Wait no I'm a good guy no-" *murdered by a thousand angel vampires*

# ? Jan 31, 2024 13:07

Z the IVth: Jan 28, 2009; The trouble with your "expendable machines"; Fun Shoe

lines posted:

I will say that if they brought back Horus in modern 40k as a kind of tarnished knight on a quest for redemption that would slap so incredibly hard?

Would it make a model kit? Yes
Would it sell? Hell yes
Will it happen? GW shareholders nod approvingly

The only reason they haven't made one of the Emperor is because it'd be the size of an average UK terrace with a price tag to match.
"The Emperor on the Golden Throne" - £350,000 with a 35 year mortgage only from Forgeworld.

# ? Jan 31, 2024 13:16

lines: Aug 18, 2013; She, laughing in mockery, changed herself into a wren and flew away.

Z the IVth posted:

Would it make a model kit? Yes
Would it sell? Hell yes
Will it happen? GW shareholders nod approvingly

The only reason they haven't made one of the Emperor is because it'd be the size of an average UK terrace with a price tag to match.
"The Emperor on the Golden Throne" - £350,000 with a 35 year mortgage only from Forgeworld.

Yeah it seems to me that Horus is a much better shout for this because he's fundamentally more of a character than the Emperor is.

I know that he has a 30k model, of course, but you could do some interestingly different stuff with a 40k one.

# ? Jan 31, 2024 13:20

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

The second person perspective for H was incredible effective. Just the best. Really nailed being a possessed crazy person

# ? Jan 31, 2024 14:01

DAD LOST MY IPOD: Feb 3, 2012; Fats Dominar is on the case

guys theres a whole chapter of loken hanging around with Horus�s blasted skeleton, he is as dead as anyone�s ever been

# ? Jan 31, 2024 14:02

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 04:35

HerpicleOmnicron5: May 31, 2013; How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?

DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:

guys theres a whole chapter of loken hanging around with Horus�s blasted skeleton, he is as dead as anyone�s ever been

okay but loken was also famously quite dead and for some reason brought back, and they've already brought horus back once in Black Legion. nobody's ever really gone.

# ? Jan 31, 2024 14:24

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