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500excf type r posted:You can't unwind the clock, those forests are long gone and all you can do now is manage what is left. I have sugar maples that are over 200 years old, should they suffer because some young upstart white pine wants to grow crooked? I also have sugar maples that compete with pines, and I care about the maples because I tap them but I think this is weird reasoning. Removing human concerns why is a new pine less important than an old maple? It won't live as long, granted, and the old growth forests are gone and not coming back at least until most of the humans are gone and weird new kinds of trees evolve, but forest management that's geared towards anything other than wildfire control (the need for which is largely an artifact of human activity in the first place....) seems like its more or less based on a human conception of what a forest should be. should a young pine suffer because some crochtety old sugar maple has thicc roots? Forests are a constant state of warfare between different species, human intervention is taking sides. I just make popcorn. (And clear and burn downed/dead stuff as fuel, and also deal with anything that poses a serious hazard to the use of our handful of trails I maintain -- but that's all human use aesthetic stuff and chopping up fuel, I think it's all basically immoral stewardship of the parcel we have here).
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Mar 6, 2024 16:33
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Cabbages and Kings posted:I also have sugar maples that compete with pines, and I care about the maples because I tap them but I think this is weird reasoning. Removing human concerns why is a new pine less important than an old maple? It won't live as long, granted, and the old growth forests are gone and not coming back at least until most of the humans are gone and weird new kinds of trees evolve, but forest management that's geared towards anything other than wildfire control (the need for which is largely an artifact of human activity in the first place....) seems like its more or less based on a human conception of what a forest should be. for nature sometimes it’s war sometimes it’s peace (mycorrhizal fungi etc). for capitalism it’s always war all the time. exploit and kill. bomb bomb bomb. it’s anti human and anti nature. we are just another animal that the natural system could more or less accommodate, like termite mounds altering microclimates in the desert. capitalism’s alterations are globally systemic. silver lining, this will be a great reset for the biosphere. a chance to try again. perhaps plastics reduce it back to a microbial start, and life rebuilds a plastics rich biosphere. maybe not. cest la vie. mags has issued a correction as of 17:00 on Mar 6, 2024 |
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Mar 6, 2024 16:57
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ugh lol
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Mar 6, 2024 17:00
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all the plastics will have to form the basis for new deposits of carbon, since we soaked up all the stuff that was stored before microbes invented a way to eat lignin. future cycles of human civilization will have smaller and smaller batches of free energy to industrialize with. eventually, one of them might figure out a way to do it without cooking themselves to death
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Mar 6, 2024 17:30
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SixteenShells posted:all the plastics will have to form the basis for new deposits of carbon, since we soaked up all the stuff that was stored before microbes invented a way to eat lignin. future cycles of human civilization will have smaller and smaller batches of free energy to industrialize with. eventually, one of them might figure out a way to do it without cooking themselves to death too late we are cooking to death
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Mar 6, 2024 17:37
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future cycles of human civilization lol
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Mar 6, 2024 17:37
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well its not tha tbad yet, the flowers are blooming
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Mar 6, 2024 17:38
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Cabbages and Kings posted:I also have sugar maples that compete with pines, and I care about the maples because I tap them but I think this is weird reasoning. Removing human concerns why is a new pine less important than an old maple? It won't live as long, granted, and the old growth forests are gone and not coming back at least until most of the humans are gone and weird new kinds of trees evolve, but forest management that's geared towards anything other than wildfire control (the need for which is largely an artifact of human activity in the first place....) seems like its more or less based on a human conception of what a forest should be. this is a very good example of imperialist propaganda contaminating your understanding of nature. mutual aid has always been a factor in evolution. we are all the product of cooperation and mutual flourishing much as we produce life and help it flourish with our cooperation. yes we’re currently part of an ecocidal culture, but since that’s obviously unsustainable, why would anyone regard its activities as natural or permanent? I mean, I know why but it’s not because it’s true.
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Mar 6, 2024 17:54
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bawfuls posted:not really your point but the pre-Colombian Amazon civilizations did extensive forestry of the rainforest
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Mar 6, 2024 18:00
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Wakko posted:future cycles of human civilization lol I was thinking of the hypotheses that humans had a population crunch down to a few thousand individuals because of the Toba eruption. Global human civilization as we know it is done for, but I don't think it's impossible to imagine scattered, small pockets of humans surviving until conditions are better in a few thousand years.
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Mar 6, 2024 18:27
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SixteenShells posted:I was thinking of the hypotheses that humans had a population crunch down to a few thousand individuals because of the Toba eruption. Global human civilization as we know it is done for, but I don't think it's impossible to imagine scattered, small pockets of humans surviving until conditions are better in a few thousand years. Which conditions will improve, and on what timescale?
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Mar 6, 2024 18:38
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lol the Toba eruption caused a catastrophic -3.5C deviance in the mean causing a worldwide ice age that almost killed us —— look +2C is nothing, nothing to be concerned about; if we keep it there it’s fine consume and vote
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Mar 6, 2024 18:50
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hot = good cold = bad Simple as
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Mar 6, 2024 18:57
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the Toba eruption lasted 14 days. how long have we been erupting?
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Mar 6, 2024 19:00
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Dokapon Findom posted:Which conditions will improve, and on what timescale? Man I dont loving know. call it 50,000 years and and we might have stable enough local climates that a small regional trading network can start up in the northernmost bits of Russia.
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Mar 6, 2024 19:00
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someone should start a Foundation cult dedicated to preserving scientific knowledge (and in particular the reams of evidence that human activity caused the calamity) through the post collapse dark ages
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Mar 6, 2024 19:12
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Lotta folk still in bargaining about Venus 2 I see smdh
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Mar 6, 2024 19:16
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if we crash hard and fast enough maybe we can get lucky and avoid Venus 2
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Mar 6, 2024 19:17
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The Protagonist posted:Lotta folk still in bargaining about Venus 2 I see smdh humans are like awful little rats, sometimes. some of the estimates of how low human breeding populations can get are as low as 40 breeding pairs. For as apocalyptic as it's going to get, I don't feel comfortable confidently saying there won't even be a hundred humans left on the planet somewhere.
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Mar 6, 2024 19:18
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Popoto posted:the Toba eruption lasted 14 days. how long have we been erupting? buddy,
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Mar 6, 2024 19:25
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bawfuls posted:someone should start a Foundation cult dedicated to preserving scientific knowledge (and in particular the reams of evidence that human activity caused the calamity) through the post collapse dark ages just loving build this on top of wall street 
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Mar 6, 2024 19:29
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bawfuls posted:if we crash hard and fast enough maybe we can get lucky and avoid Venus 2 if humanity vanished tomorrow, along with all our emissions technology, this world would continue to heat up for at least a few more centuries before anything like an equilibrium state could possibly emerge. The oceans are undergoing a phase change in front of our eyes, on timescales smaller than a decade. The damage has been done.
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Mar 6, 2024 19:35
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mdemone posted:if humanity vanished tomorrow, along with all our emissions technology, this world would continue to heat up for at least a few more centuries before anything like an equilibrium state could possibly emerge. Hmm, I guess that means it's time to enjoy my treats while they remain. 
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Mar 6, 2024 19:35
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correct but as to whether that’s enough to push the planet into Venus 2 territory is still an open question
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Mar 6, 2024 19:36
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mdemone posted:The damage has been done. we can do more
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Mar 6, 2024 19:37
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bawfuls posted:correct but as to whether that’s enough to push the planet into Venus 2 territory is still an open question agreed. I tend to think there isn't an equilibrium region of parameter space between here and there, and that we are falling off a saddle point, but we can't be sure.
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Mar 6, 2024 19:38
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right so in the space provided by that uncertainty, a Foundation-like cult to preserve the history that brought us here would be as useful an endeavor as anything else one could do, short of [REDACTED] maybe
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Mar 6, 2024 19:40
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bawfuls posted:someone should start a Foundation cult dedicated to preserving scientific knowledge (and in particular the reams of evidence that human activity caused the calamity) through the post collapse dark ages oops! all Game Informer!
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Mar 6, 2024 19:40
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bawfuls posted:if we crash hard and fast enough maybe we can get lucky and avoid Venus 2 And deny everyone the final reward at the end of the great work??? https://twitter.com/EliotJacobson/status/1765393958803517447/photo/1 I like how the line crabbed for a bit to trick everyone into thinking that things would go back to normal just for a few weeks and then went back to business as usual lmao Argentum has issued a correction as of 19:45 on Mar 6, 2024 |
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Mar 6, 2024 19:42
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folks if you build an archive of human knowledge, let me assure you right now that the joyous work will not be complete until it lies in ruin
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Mar 6, 2024 19:44
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SixteenShells posted:humans are like awful little rats, sometimes. can you point on a globe at the “sometimes”
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Mar 6, 2024 19:47
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Argentum posted:And deny everyone the final reward at the end of the great work??? yo is that equipment calibrated properly?
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Mar 6, 2024 19:49
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Argentum posted:And deny everyone the final reward at the end of the great work??? time to find out what's like living in the global climate equivalent of a transition from laminar to turbulent flow
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Mar 6, 2024 19:51
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Argentum posted:And deny everyone the final reward at the end of the great work??? It's a number, it's supposed to go up
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Mar 6, 2024 19:53
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Popoto posted:lol the Toba eruption caused a catastrophic -3.5C deviance in the mean causing a worldwide ice age that almost killed us We're due another ice age pretty soon (in geological terms) no matter what we do, so why even bother?
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Mar 6, 2024 19:54
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Argentum posted:And deny everyone the final reward at the end of the great work??? lines only crouch in order to jump higher
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Mar 6, 2024 20:16
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Freezer posted:We're due another ice age pretty soon (in geological terms) no matter what we do, so why even bother? Nope, we have officially broken the Milankovitch cycle
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Mar 6, 2024 20:23
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Freezer posted:We're due another ice age pretty soon (in geological terms) no matter what we do, so why even bother? - libs on venus a few billion years ago
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Mar 6, 2024 20:25
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Anybody have any resources for building resilience in a municipality, eg., a US county? I know there are some decroissance/ degrowth works addressing this for other polities... Any case studies from places previously hollowed out by the loss of industry/ unmanageable costs of infrastructure? I know Detroit is trying some stuff, but I’m especially interested in smaller municipalities (altough if there are any relevant works re: Detroit, I’d still appreciate seeing those). Both socio-political and material frameworks would be helpful I’m trying to run a study group that looks at responses through various lenses, and while there’s plenty about the homestead level, and plenty on the National/international level, I find myself coming up short at the municipal/ state level. Thanks goons, stay safe
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Mar 6, 2024 20:39
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| # ? Jun 10, 2024 01:49 |
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Argentum posted:And deny everyone the final reward at the end of the great work??? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjD3EVC1-zU
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Mar 6, 2024 20:43
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