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Ghost Leviathan posted:Is a theme that, no matter the circumstances, a KH would be impossible to actually control in practice and both Paul and his son laugh at the BG for thinking they could, even if they have rather charitable views towards the organisation as a whole. (also that gender essentialism is kinda built into the metaphysics of Dune, unfortunately, though in a funny 60s way. It's seriously ahead of its time as a 60s sci-fi story where women are complete characters with intelligence, agency and personalities of their own) One of the themes, intentional or not, is that no one with any degree of power in this story is a "good" person. Nice to a few select loyal friends perhaps, but everyone including the Atreides were constantly manipulating others for their own purposes and didn't think twice about having innocent people killed. Everyone has blood on their hands. You don't become a major house by being a good person.
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Mar 10, 2024 17:59
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I know at the end of the day my opinion doesn’t matter but I was expecting a far more faithful adaptation for Part 2, in that so much of the book was cut out and changed that it took me out of the movie completely. I went into the theater completely blind wondering how will we do this scene or that scene to find that the overall plot got completely manipulated into occurring over what a 5-6 month span of time, ridiculous imo. My only explanation is massive studio interference that Denis will never admit to since it would ruin his brand. I readily admit that the film is an enjoyable spectacle to watch in IMAX though much like Marvel movies that’s where I’m coming from and I am not trying to poo poo on anyone who enjoyed it but just venting my frustration as an avid fan of the novels I expected more.
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Mar 10, 2024 18:25
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Buttchocks posted:One of the themes, intentional or not, is that no one with any degree of power in this story is a "good" person. Nice to a few select loyal friends perhaps, but everyone including the Atreides were constantly manipulating others for their own purposes and didn't think twice about having innocent people killed. Everyone has blood on their hands. You don't become a major house by being a good person. The Atreides absolutely care about innocent people getting killed. That is the whole point of the harvester scene, in which Leto urges the abandoning of a whole load of spice to save the men.
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Mar 10, 2024 18:28
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Scarabrae posted:
A lot of the changes seem to be to modernise the source material from the sex-weird hippy misogyny of the original into something that's more explicitly anti-colonialist. You could argue that's dumbing down the themes of the novel, but hey that's why books and film are different formats with different strengths and adaptation is an endlessly tricky and subjective art.
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Mar 10, 2024 18:37
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In the books the baron is absolutely having the most fun of any character. He loves his job. He gets up every morning stoked about all the plotting and evil schemes he gets to do. The Villeneuve movies kinda lose that, there's only the tinest glimmer of that in Part 2 where he just chuckles when Feyd threatens his life.
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Mar 10, 2024 18:48
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I watched the 1984 version of Dune. At first I was like "Wow, they sure did make it look in the same style as 2001: A Space Odyssey and the original Star Wars", then when Patrick Stewart appeared on screen, my mom said there were a lot of lookalikes of the original actors in this film, and then we realized it was the older version. Sometimes I was out of it and didn't understand what was happening, like when the space whale-slug thing made orbs appear, and the ending was kind of abrupt, but I really enjoyed it.
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Mar 10, 2024 18:55
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Scarabrae posted:I went into the theater completely blind wondering how will we do this scene or that scene to find that the overall plot got completely manipulated into occurring over what a 5-6 month span of time, ridiculous imo. I appreciate people taking issue with things being removed or altered in the process of adaptation, but this specific complaint utterly confounds me. I truly cannot understand what the issue is with the plot of 2 taking place within 9 months instead of 24 kalel fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Mar 10, 2024 |
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Mar 10, 2024 18:56
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kalel posted:I appreciate people taking issue with things being removed or altered in the process of adaptation, but this specific complaint utterly confounds me. I truly cannot understand what the issue is with the plot of 2 taking place within 9 months instead of 24 Because it is an absurdly short time for Paul to become accepted as the messiah and wage a war that brings spice production to a complete halt on the entire planet. Not to mention Gurney apparently becoming the leader of his own spice smuggling operation. Also IIRC in the book it is not 24 months but something over five years.
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Mar 10, 2024 19:09
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I think it should've been condensed more. Make it all happen in real time. Five hour messiah speedrun.
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Mar 10, 2024 19:11
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Bugblatter posted:NFL games aren’t really about the human drama of two characters and Dune isn’t really about how cool the fight choreography is. John Wick fights are awesome, but wouldn’t really be appropriate here. A better one might have made them interesting to watch
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Mar 10, 2024 19:13
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If they didn’t want to deal with a 2 year old Alia he could of made up some poo poo about the water of life accelerating her aging and use a 10 year old actress so it wouldn’t seem as goofy. I do not think the right answer to that concern is removing Alia from the movie. Paul not losing his first child to the Harkonnen’s, him not forseeing Gurney trying to kill Jessica, Harah and a good chunk of Fremen culture being removed. Jessica’s character is changed drastically. The smashcut to Gurney killing Rabban lol, Emperor Walken lol what a bad casting. And the complete avoidance of the word jihad, I could go on and on but all I hope for is it interests more people to read the book.
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Mar 10, 2024 19:19
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Illmade posted:The Atreides absolutely care about innocent people getting killed. That is the whole point of the harvester scene, in which Leto urges the abandoning of a whole load of spice to save the men. Leto is definitely the goodest person of the whole series. He's also my favorite to read about because he's so conflicted about it and still falls prey to the damage power does to a person's brain. Even when they're already on Arrakis he's like, "This is so stupid, I need to just cut and run and take my whole family with me, I'm going to get us all killed - BUT THEY TRIED TO KILL MY SON." He's proud and overconfident and easily moved to foolish anger from the very same need to protect people that made him save the spice miners. And yes, still manipulative, because he admits that he needs to befriend the Fremen to make them a weapon. Power makes everyone stupid or a bastard or both.
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Mar 10, 2024 19:23
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Leto betting his family's future on "desert power" without having any real idea of what the Fremen are capable of is kinda funny - like a 17th century British aristocrat becoming obsessed with "jungle power" after hearing about war elephants.
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Mar 10, 2024 19:55
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Leto also has a really funny internal line in the book where, after Gurney Halleck says something insightful about battle strategy before playing a song on his space zither, Leto thinks to himself "golly! you'd never think a man who could make nice pretty music would also be a big buff scary military guy!", and I can't decide if it's either that Herbert didn't trust the reader to pick up on Halleck's characterization or if he wanted to underline that Leto is a huge doofus.
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Mar 10, 2024 20:00
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Scarabrae posted:I know at the end of the day my opinion doesn’t matter but I was expecting a far more faithful adaptation for Part 2, in that so much of the book was cut out and changed that it took me out of the movie completely. I absolutely think that other scenes were capable of being excised to bring us back Thufir.. we were robbed. I would totally sacrifice Fenring scenes on that altar. Arglebargle III posted:In the books the baron is absolutely having the most fun of any character. He loves his job. He gets up every morning stoked about all the plotting and evil schemes he gets to do. Very correct and also lol. In Part 1 of the movie he was mostly just a lazy smugness demon, which obviously is needed to hammer it home for the non book people. I was so ready to see Part 2 when his walls finally start crashing down and we actually get a scared frown or three. Rabban was loving HILARIOUS in this movie, I feel like in nearly ever scene he was in a total, cucked panic. SuperTeeJay posted:Leto betting his family's future on "desert power" without having any real idea of what the Fremen are capable of is kinda funny - like a 17th century British aristocrat becoming obsessed with "jungle power" after hearing about war elephants. Credit where it's due though, our boi was completely right.
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Mar 10, 2024 20:07
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Getting upset over the word jihad not being used seems like wasted energy. When the book was written, the lifting of the then-exotic islamic lexicon is understandable, but 60+ years later and a while lot of loving around, it makes sense to not use it, maybe they should have transliterated it and called it the "galactic struggle" instead of holy war.
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Mar 10, 2024 22:21
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SuperTeeJay posted:Leto betting his family's future on "desert power" without having any real idea of what the Fremen are capable of is kinda funny - like a 17th century British aristocrat becoming obsessed with "jungle power" after hearing about war elephants. Yeah, I think the whole South Arrakis thing really should have been introduced in the first movie. Leto looks less like a goober, and it exposes more of the shortcomings of the Harkkonens.
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Mar 10, 2024 23:17
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Simplex posted:Yeah, I think the whole South Arrakis thing really should have been introduced in the first movie. Leto looks less like a goober, and it exposes more of the shortcomings of the Harkkonens. The "there are millions of Fremen and the Harkonnens' estimate was 50k" scene we got in part 1 functionally served as this, and it worked fine. Leto's whole desert power thing makes enough sense in the context of the movie, he doesn't look like a chump or like he's getting ahead of himself to me. He's being lured into a trap, and if the Atreides stay in Arrakeen and the few other settlements they're sitting ducks. They need an advantage that the Harkonnens haven't thought of, and Leto understands that the Fremen are people *and* that the Harkonnens won't have considered the Fremen worthy of serious study. That's desert power, and it's all you need.
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Mar 10, 2024 23:39
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Wow in the scene where the Atreides arrive at Arrakis we get a close up of the bridge of one of their spaceships and when they honk the horn you can see the horn vibrate and shake loose dust. That's attention to detail.
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Mar 11, 2024 01:27
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SuperTeeJay posted:Leto betting his family's future on "desert power" without having any real idea of what the Fremen are capable of is kinda funny - like a 17th century British aristocrat becoming obsessed with "jungle power" after hearing about war elephants. That very much happened, the Gurkhas win one war that Britain happened to be a part of and suddenly they restructure their entire imperial army around making them their special forces for a century
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Mar 11, 2024 01:58
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 Always terrifies the Bene Gesserit
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Mar 11, 2024 02:22
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Hannibal Rex posted:
It's what you wear when your jizz is the most valuable jizz in the universe.
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Mar 11, 2024 02:38
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I thought Feyd's military outfit on Arrakis looked awesome, black and silver with the cape. It's a tough look to pull off. And of course, huge ol codpiece, unmissable.
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Mar 11, 2024 02:43
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Pinterest Mom posted:The "there are millions of Fremen and the Harkonnens' estimate was 50k" scene we got in part 1 functionally served as this, and it worked fine.
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Mar 11, 2024 02:50
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Pinterest Mom posted:The "there are millions of Fremen and the Harkonnens' estimate was 50k" scene we got in part 1 functionally served as this, and it worked fine. Not to mention what we see of the Atreides forces suggests they're very well adapted to Caladan's geography and climate; the submersible spaceships (which, on Arrakis, are almost literally fish out of water) that are probably pretty much invisible when underwater. (Also wonder if they're meant to be likened to the worms?) He understands that on a very different planet and climate, power takes a different form, and they need to learn and adapt fast to survive- starting with learning from the people who are already there. Also keep in mind, the Atreides and Harkonnens have been actively at war for centuries, Leto knows the Harkonnens and how they operate, specifically that they're run by monsters and madmen who place no value on the lives of their people, seem to rely heavily on technology and drugs to make up for poor training and morale, and are immensely arrogant and cruel and prone to underestimating everyone else. He's betting that they've ignored what could be key allies out of belligerence, cruelty and arrogance, and he's right. Arglebargle III posted:In the books the baron is absolutely having the most fun of any character. He loves his job. He gets up every morning stoked about all the plotting and evil schemes he gets to do. The Villeneuve movies kinda lose that, there's only the tinest glimmer of that in Part 2 where he just chuckles when Feyd threatens his life. To be fair, you don't really need that, and it'd definitely come off as jarringly cartoonish in the tone that these movies are going for. Pretty much everyone agrees the Giedi Prime scenes are the highlight of the movie, after all.
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Mar 11, 2024 02:56
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Simplex posted:There's not really any particular reason to think that Leto is anymore correct there than the Harkonnens. If anything, from the information given to the audience and thematically it makes way more sense that the Harkkonen estimate is far more accurate until about midway through part 2, when suddenly it's revealed there is an entire hemisphere, previously undiscussed, that no one really knows what's going on down there. Why wouldn't the info Leto is given in Part 1 be accurate? Duncan had embedded himself among them and won their trust, and presumably learned a lot about them, at least a roughly accurate estimate of their population. Plus Thufir Hawat's spies corroborated what he learned iirc. The whole point is that the Harkonnens never bothered to look into it.
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Mar 11, 2024 03:05
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Paracausal posted:Getting upset over the word jihad not being used seems like wasted energy. When the book was written, the lifting of the then-exotic islamic lexicon is understandable, but 60+ years later and a while lot of loving around, it makes sense to not use it, maybe they should have transliterated it and called it the "galactic struggle" instead of holy war. lol
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Mar 11, 2024 03:33
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Apparently the scene where everyone is traveling south on the worms, Paul is on his own worm and nudges his worm to leave the pack? I thought he was just avoiding a rock or something. So Paul veered off to go to his mother and then Zendaya led her people to another underground city and then she flew to Paul. Completely missed that.
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Mar 11, 2024 03:42
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On one hand, I loved the film. The score, the casting, the general adaptation. On the other, it feels like a really... muted and "2024" take on the ideas. The more secular Fremen felt like someone flashing the subtext on the screen. The wholesale lack of the Spacing Guild hurts the climax, and was surprising given they showed up in the first film with cool costumes. The Jihad kicking off because the Great Houses don't accept Paul's rule felt like it really sanded the edge off Paul's story. And what was with the "I'll go south and millions will die from starvation!" bit? That felt like it was trying to downplay the holy war element or something. I understand why they made Chani a bit more active in the story, but I also don't think it was that well integrated. That said, I really liked what they did with Alia, and I feel like it made the idea of an abomination much more something that the BG would be terrified of: who's calling the shots, Jessica or the preborn mind inside her? It's like the lack of Thufir and Fenring... they're not strictly necessary from a story perspective, but they add so much to the world and characters. The bit with Chani arriving on the ornithopter out of nowhere definitely feels like there was some cut scenes in there. It wasn't awful, but it felt really... safe. If there's any pair of films that I want a self-indulgent all the deleted scenes cut, it's these two. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Mar 11, 2024 |
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Mar 11, 2024 04:26
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I caught this over the weekend and thought there was a lot to like and a really satisfying second half. As someone who really doesn't put Dune on a pedestal (I've read Dune and Messiah) I thought some of the changes preferable and towards the middle when I realized the time jump wasnt going to happen kind of just rolled with it. Most of all I was super happy to see Chani actually given agency, and that we saw Fremen voicing skepticism. In the first book they feel very much like sheeple, following the time jump. I didn't mind the wife inheritance being cut, nor the big orgy; but did miss the lack of tension between Jessica and Girney. Harkonen planet was great and I liked the pew pew pew action throughout. It's okay if your movie has spectacle. My main question is whether the status quo in Messiah will be different. Is Chani going to take the place of Otheym? Also: Looks like they will age up Ali, which is fine and good because I don't really want to see a romance between Mamoa and a 17 year old. I'm even jazzed enough to slog through Herbert's tedious prose and finally read Children and God Emperor.
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Mar 11, 2024 05:20
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why did i think austin butler was australian this whole time
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Mar 11, 2024 05:30
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Alan Smithee posted:why did i think austin butler was australian this whole time So did I, for some reason
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Mar 11, 2024 06:40
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We didn't see any Spacing Guild people in the first one, did we? Those people who came down the ramp when the Emperor's messenger came to officially give them the order to take over on Arrakis, the ones with the opaque visors and full helmets on their heads were members of the imperial court, I thought.
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Mar 11, 2024 06:50
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and you would be right
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Mar 11, 2024 06:50
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The costume designer specifically cites those guys as Spacing Guild members. What we don't see are Navigators.
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Mar 11, 2024 07:19
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MrMojok posted:We didn't see any Spacing Guild people in the first one, did we? Those people who came down the ramp when the Emperor's messenger came to officially give them the order to take over on Arrakis, the ones with the opaque visors and full helmets on their heads were members of the imperial court, I thought. Representatives of the spacing guild is the line in the movie I think
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Mar 11, 2024 07:22
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Yeah, they’re called out as representatives. Not seeing navigators is in line with the first book, fwiw. We don’t get any hints of their fishlike appearance until Messiah.
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Mar 11, 2024 07:27
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With how weird the Harkonnens tended to look they would have had to go REAL weird with the Guild guys.
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Mar 11, 2024 10:38
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Dunc Part Deux was a good movie. Not having looked up previously who was in it (new to Part 2 I mean) I spent almost the entire runtime thinking that Feyd-Rautha was being played by a CGI de-aged or heavily made up Cary Elwes.
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Mar 11, 2024 11:34
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Bugblatter posted:Yeah, they’re called out as representatives. Not seeing navigators is in line with the first book, fwiw. We don’t get any hints of their fishlike appearance until Messiah. There are non-fishlike Navigators, they're in the books and I assume the spice-helmet dudes in Part 1 are that type. The other helmeted guys shown on screen appear when they say "members of the Imperial Court", so it's weird they got rid of that kind of look for the Emperor's retinue in Part 2.
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Mar 11, 2024 13:01
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