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Stuporstar posted:I know you’re not arguing with me here, but what do we call the intended audience when they amount to “people who physically aged out of YA but haven’t mentally, so they wanna read people with teenage brains loving but with the fig leaf of claiming they’re in their 20s”? I think there's a couple of things about "claiming they're in their 20s." First off, the actual style of writing... People do want books they can more or less inhale. Pure trash. They don't want to think and just want to go along for the ride. I don't have an issue with that. I know my aunt reads "serious" books during the day, then reads stuff about murderers chasing pathologists who are chasing the murderer before bed to wind down. I think that's normal enough. As for them being in their 20s, I think a lot of people in their mid-20s are morons. Not actually intellectually, but purely in developmental terms. "Adulthood," as it were, is delayed more and more. And mid-twenties is now they point where "adult" responsibilities start mounting up and forcing maturation, to some degree, for some people. I'm writing something (not sci-fi) where someone is in their first or second real job, post-university. They barely know how to cook beyond putting a pizza in the oven. I think that's normal. They're still out partying and drinking a lot. They're having their first serious relationships. It might not be obvious when you (generic you) are in your twenties, people think they're "adult" but they're not. Not really. They're getting the first real responsibilities of adulthood. (Leaving aside much younger people forced in their teens, and earlier, to take on adult responsibilities due to family illness, poverty, bigotry, etc. A different issue.) And "New Adult" is a bullshit genre term, as unlike the origins of YA and books pushed for teenagers, it's not about targeting a reader age group. It's compartmentalising what can be an interesting look at a key point of life. It's reductive. In sci-fi I think mid-20s age, assuming you're going off ideas we have in current society, is interesting because it provides a sort of blank slate. If you're writing from that character's POV, first person or close third, it allows you to "worldbuild" as it were, through the eyes of someone experiencing the "new-ness." I figure this is why a lot of things appear juvenile, and a good author will play with the idea of placing increased responsibility on that character to introduce the "threat" of the world. The "adult-ness."
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Mar 11, 2024 22:31
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ToxicFrog posted:lmao Literally his wikipedia page.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neal_Asher I apologise for not checking out his twitter first, and asking a thread in a forum about books.
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Mar 11, 2024 22:34
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Mrenda posted:Literally his wikipedia page. quote:I apologise for not checking out his twitter first, and asking a thread in a forum about books.
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Mar 11, 2024 22:39
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ToxicFrog posted:Amazing. A problem with SFF in general. It appears a large amount of its authors and fans are complete mentallers, never mind the highly questionable tastes in prose; which admittedly harms no-one, you do you. But when you've got authors review bombing other authors, and shills for the publishing companies all over the place, and the media in general being fanboys until some twitter controversy breaks... All in all it can be described as "a slurry pit."
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Mar 11, 2024 22:43
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Stuporstar posted:I know you’re not arguing with me here, but what do we call the intended audience when they amount to “people who physically aged out of YA but haven’t mentally, so they wanna read people with teenage brains loving but with the fig leaf of claiming they’re in their 20s”? I think those people have always been around, it's just that we don't necessarily still remember the books they were reading, and there wasn't the concept of 'YA' to use to describe the books they liked with.
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Mar 11, 2024 23:10
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Jimbozig posted:I actually have nothing against it at all. I'm the same way and will read YA when I feel like it. I read the first Percy Jackson book since my kids are into it, although that's middle grade, not YA. (It turns out that Percy Jackson is absolute trash writing, but that's independent of it being middle grade.) Ugh yeah I read the first Percy Jackson book a few months back ahead of reading it to my kid and the prose is just awful. But whatever, it's a cool story and I think he'll love it in 6 months or so. When he's 7 or 8 I just want him to enjoy reading. If you've got primary or middle school aged kids I can't speak highly enough of the Frostheart trilogy by Jamie Littler. So good, really cool and seamless world building, so well pitched for kids that age, and not in the way where it's just kind of devoid of broader themes beyond the most basic poo poo like "bravery" or whatever. Just in a way that those more abstract themes are made accessible and simplified a bit.
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Mar 11, 2024 23:17
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Lead out in cuffs posted:I'm just curious about what's YA about This is how you lose the time war? The closest novel I can think of to it is The first fifteen lives of Harry August. It very clearly seemed aimed at more of a literary/LitSF audience. I'm the one who posted about it and I specifically said I wouldn't call it YAish because of the style. The sentences are short and uncomplicated, but in a literary and poetic way, quite unlike YA. I said I disliked it for other reasons. voiceless anal fricative posted:Ugh yeah I read the first Percy Jackson book a few months back ahead of reading it to my kid and the prose is just awful. But whatever, it's a cool story and I think he'll love it in 6 months or so. When he's 7 or 8 I just want him to enjoy reading.
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Mar 11, 2024 23:29
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Mrenda posted:I apologise for not checking out his twitter first, and asking a thread in a forum about books. Personally I don't give a crap about what the author says on twitter or any of his beliefs. The Transformation trilogy is a very fun read if you like action-heavy space opera.
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Mar 11, 2024 23:42
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AcidCat posted:Personally I don't give a crap about what the author says on twitter or any of his beliefs. The Transformation trilogy is a very fun read if you like action-heavy space opera. the issue is, as stated earlier, his political beliefs went from a background theme in his work to the major plot driver to just a screed for his future super soldier 'great man theory' Owner stuff. Similar to John C Wright, i quite liked his Golden Age series, despite not being a libertarian but the quality of his work dropped inversely to the proportion of his foaming politics.
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Mar 12, 2024 00:03
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fritz posted:I think those people have always been around, it's just that we don't necessarily still remember the books they were reading, and there wasn't the concept of 'YA' to use to describe the books they liked with. That’s true. I mean, back in the 90s, me and my friends were reading Dragonlance novels or pre-Twilight vampire romance. There was a ton of popcorn fantasy crap, a lot of it targeting a juvenile audience while enticing them with big-titty barbarians on the cover There’s just something specific about current trends and how those novels are now written stylistically, like Marvel movies or those animated Star Wars series where the dialogue is constant sniping and “”””witty”””” retorts that me and those same friends find utterly grating (because we’re old lol). And yeah, we tend to call that poo poo “aged-up YA” because that’s what it feels like. Like the writing trends that infected YA literally aged up along with its audience. Mrenda posted:A problem with SFF in general. It appears a large amount of its authors and fans are complete mentallers, never mind the highly questionable tastes in prose; which admittedly harms no-one, you do you. But when you've got authors review bombing other authors, and shills for the publishing companies all over the place, and the media in general being fanboys until some twitter controversy breaks... All in all it can be described as "a slurry pit." Yeah, and this is why I give new novels a first page read if they sound interesting, because I know what I don’t like and there’s usually symptoms of it in the prose, so if I don’t like it I’ve wasted little time and can move on to better books. I never buy without reading a bit first anymore, because I’ve been burned too many times, and I’d rather shrug and forget the few minutes I wasted than have it on my kindle making me mad Mrenda posted:I think there's a couple of things about "claiming they're in their 20s." First off, the actual style of writing... People do want books they can more or less inhale. Pure trash. They don't want to think and just want to go along for the ride. I don't have an issue with that. I know my aunt reads "serious" books during the day, then reads stuff about murderers chasing pathologists who are chasing the murderer before bed to wind down. I think that's normal enough. As for them being in their 20s, I think a lot of people in their mid-20s are morons. Not actually intellectually, but purely in developmental terms. "Adulthood," as it were, is delayed more and more. And mid-twenties is now they point where "adult" responsibilities start mounting up and forcing maturation, to some degree, for some people. These are all great points. And it’s funny because I am writing a bildungsroman of a 20 yo character, and he is a dumbass, but the only way I can stand to write it is from the perspective of the character’s older self. Whenever I got too immersed in writing that character’s 20 yo pov, going back to edit it, I complain to myself about it feeling “too RPO” and rewrite it from the elder perspective You can write great stories about that stage in life—if you’re doing it with some self-awareness, and perhaps the wisdom of hindsight. It’s the same with young adult fiction. You can write excellent stories featuring characters of any age. At least excellent authors like Terry Pratchett and Ursula K Leguin can. But a shitload of writers aren’t doing that. Instead they’re writing books about adventure under a thick and cloudy attitude of teenage/college doofus malaise, undercutting the adventure—or they’re making poo poo like this https://ponett.medium.com/my-own-personal-hell-thoughts-on-hazbin-hotel-1b226af317f5
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Mar 12, 2024 00:15
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Cephas posted:I finally sat down and read The Tombs of Atuan last week. The strange, stark beauty of the setting, the wonderful and haunting prose. The way Ged transforms, Tarot-like, from The Magician to The Hanged Man, in over his head in the locked halls of the labyrinth. It's a nightmare of feminist despair--"You are eaten! You are eaten!" You should work your way through to Tehanu. It's LeGuin's own feminist answer to the failings in her original work, almost 20 years later!
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Mar 12, 2024 00:53
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AcidCat posted:Personally I don't give a crap about what the author says on twitter or any of his beliefs.
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Mar 12, 2024 01:21
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RDM posted:I learned why this doesn't work in the 90s when I was a kid. Thanks Michael Crichton. *checks counter to see last time Mishima chat broke out*
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Mar 12, 2024 02:08
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Danhenge posted:You should work your way through to Tehanu. It's LeGuin's own feminist answer to the failings in her original work, almost 20 years later! I keep going back and forth on whether I ever want to read Tehanu. On the one hand it's supposedly very good, and it's More Le Guin. On the other hand, I deeply, dearly love the original Earthsea trilogy, and I worry that Tehanu is going to feel like one of my favorite authors just making GBS threads on something important to me. Edit: voiceless anal fricative posted:Ugh yeah I read the first Percy Jackson book a few months back ahead of reading it to my kid and the prose is just awful. But whatever, it's a cool story and I think he'll love it in 6 months or so. When he's 7 or 8 I just want him to enjoy reading. I can highly recommend Wolf Brother for these purposes as well. I found the author, Michelle Paver, through her astonishing Antarctic horror novel Dark Matter, and only years later discovered that she's much better for her children's series about a Stone Age kid who discovers he has a psychic / magical bond with a wolf cub. You want good writing in a story meant for children? This is it. Paver has serious prose chops, and it's a demonstration of her mastery that she can write a Prydain-esque children's book in a way that is both accessible to children and also beautiful, tense, and thrilling even for adults. Kestral fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Mar 12, 2024 |
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Mar 12, 2024 02:31
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Kestral posted:I keep going back and forth on whether I ever want to read Tehanu. On the one hand it's supposedly very good, and it's More Le Guin. On the other hand, I deeply, dearly love the original Earthsea trilogy, and I worry that Tehanu is going to feel like one of my favorite authors just making GBS threads on something important to me. She absolutely does not do that.
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Mar 12, 2024 02:47
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Kestral posted:I keep going back and forth on whether I ever want to read Tehanu. On the one hand it's supposedly very good, and it's More Le Guin. On the other hand, I deeply, dearly love the original Earthsea trilogy, and I worry that Tehanu is going to feel like one of my favorite authors just making GBS threads on something important to me. I usually don't try to speak for how other people will perceive things, but I feel really confident that Tehanu will not feel like that.
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Mar 12, 2024 03:16
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Stuporstar posted:These are all great points. And it’s funny because I am writing a bildungsroman of a 20 yo character, and he is a dumbass, but the only way I can stand to write it is from the perspective of the character’s older self. Whenever I got too immersed in writing that character’s 20 yo pov, going back to edit it, I complain to myself about it feeling “too RPO” and rewrite it from the elder perspective The way I'm doing it, with the two things I'm writing, is in making the world they're in supportive. In my non sci-fi story the "story" is about getting to grips with a personal situation, something a lot of people deal with, with hardship and prejudice, but this "world" has had the prejudice removed, to a large degree, or at least the community, and presents, "What then would be the problems?" They're a young character, mid-twenties, and it's about them becoming the person they should be. As it goes on it'll be more about them returning the help they've received to others who might not have had the same, to the people who did help them along the way. It's a very community orientated tale where there's back and forth between people; exchange. In the sci-fi it's about discovering the world they inhabit exists for a reason, and this person was "shut down" in many ways. An opportunity presents itself and they get to experience things, as an adult, with a greater insight than most. One of the big ideas in the novel will be that society is somewhat balanced, but is stagnating. Not in a stagnant water being dangerous and foul way, but in that it's not really advancing itself. The question I want to ask is if people are mostly happy, not without issues, but mostly happy, and content, even via "management," is it correct to deliberately upset a balance for the potential of a societal breakthrough. It's a kind of charitable look on the dystopia in Brave New World, saying, "No, the people are mostly happy (by their standards) but that has consequences." Mainly 'What comes next?' Once people are content what is there to do? If the sacrifice people have to make for the contentment is minimised, is it right to ask for greater sacrifice in the name of greater growth? Again it's a mid-twenties character getting to experience this, because it allows me to show the world through someone who is plausibly discovering a reason to finally appreciate this, without huge hurdles to jump before we get to the point of their experiencing it, and questions of why they didn't see it before. They're just "adult" enough that there can be a good reason they didn't see what was happening, and now do. In both cases I think the mid-twenties, somewhat naive perspective is valid, without any hindsight, but only because the consequences for the characters is limited, while they have the freedom of adulthood. If I was to write a similar story in a "real world" setting it'd be an entirely different story. They literally couldn't do what they do. But I think my approach is valid in both those circumstances, and in many ways is like a prolonged childhood, where consequences are limited and not necessarily dangerous. That's the ideal in any world, though, isn't it? Real or fictional world? That people are allowed to play, and experiment, understand and challenge without it being a threat. I'm certainly enjoying writing it. And it goes back to the cozy fiction talk earlier. It seems some authors see the point of it as being "cozy." I don't think it is (unless it literally is the author's point.) I think it's a style or feeling, a tool, that allows, when combined with other elements, for other ideas in the story. If you just want to feel cozy put on pyjamas and wear big socks.
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Mar 12, 2024 05:01
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I forget who it was that recommended Wild Wood a few pages back, but thank you, I really enjoyed it. It's a long time since I read Wind In The Willows but the way the plots intertwine brought it all back. It's very nicely done.
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Mar 12, 2024 10:09
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Kestral posted:I can highly recommend Wolf Brother for these purposes as well. I found the author, Michelle Paver, through her astonishing Antarctic horror novel Dark Matter, and only years later discovered that she's much better for her children's series about a Stone Age kid who discovers he has a psychic / magical bond with a wolf cub. You want good writing in a story meant for children? This is it. Paver has serious prose chops, and it's a demonstration of her mastery that she can write a Prydain-esque children's book in a way that is both accessible to children and also beautiful, tense, and thrilling even for adults. I'd recommend Frances Hardinge's books for pretty much the same reasons And Megan Whalen Turner, I've seen her Thief series being described as YA
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Mar 12, 2024 10:50
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tetrapyloctomy posted:Mr Toad is a goddamn point source of manic chaos, he is amazing and terrible. I legit recommend the audiobook we've been listening to. This was from a few days ago but I saw a meme that reminded me of this post 
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Mar 12, 2024 18:37
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has anyone read Tad Williams recently? someone was talking about Memory, Sorrow & Thorn the other day and i realised i only read the first one Dragonborn Chair. So have they aged poorly? Worth picking up again, 30 years on?
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Mar 13, 2024 01:30
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Lord of Light fans, a thread in TradGames just introduced me to the Buddhist story of Angulimala, and now I'm wondering - is this what Rild's story is meant to reference?
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Mar 13, 2024 02:40
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branedotorg posted:has anyone read Tad Williams recently? someone was talking about Memory, Sorrow & Thorn the other day and i realised i only read the first one Dragonborn Chair. I'm actually currently doing a reread of MS&T (one of my faves) and am in the middle of Dragonbone Chair and I'm enjoying it a good bit, probably more so than on first read because I can read it more slowly and leisurely and pick up on all the layers of prose and foreshadowing and such. I wouldn't say it's aged poorly so much as the genre has totally moved away from this style of fantasy, so it comes off as kinda quaint, plodding, and verbose if you're used to quicker plot pacing and 'workmanlike' prose. Tad Williams definitely has a distinctive prose vibe, and it's lush and often whimsical and great if you're the type of reader who likes rich visuals and atmosphere in their fantasy (and probably godawful if you're not). And one thing I'll say is that MS&T is one of the relatively few fantasies I've read that feels genuinely medieval. So much stuff is only superficially medieval in that there are swords and castles and stuff and it looks medieval but it's just a veneer and it doesn't feel medieval. So if you want an old school fantasy nostalgia hit with Arthurian and Tolkien vibes, then MS&T is your series. If you want something faster and more modern-feeling or gritty, then look elsewhere. Also, MS&T is the OG fantasy about human factions squabbling over a throne while a supernatural threat looms in the frozen north and GRRM has cited it as a major influence. So a fun game to play while reading MS&T is to identify all the things that also show up in ASOIAF. Some of it is pretty blatant.
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Mar 13, 2024 03:07
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Kestral posted:Lord of Light fans, a thread in TradGames just introduced me to the Buddhist story of Angulimala, and now I'm wondering - is this what Rild's story is meant to reference? makes sense, the redemption of the murderer at the feet of the buddha
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Mar 13, 2024 03:08
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Queen Victorian posted:Also, MS&T is the OG fantasy about human factions squabbling over a throne while a supernatural threat looms in the frozen north and GRRM has cited it as a major influence. So a fun game to play while reading MS&T is to identify all the things that also show up in ASOIAF. Some of it is pretty blatant. Yeah, MS&T has the same kind of problem that Neuromancer and the Black Company books have where it's influenced enough stuff that it can feel unoriginal at times, when the truth is that it's the original and you've just seen a lot of takes on it.
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Mar 13, 2024 03:44
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Khizan posted:Yeah, MS&T has the same kind of problem that Neuromancer and the Black Company books have where it's influenced enough stuff that it can feel unoriginal at times, when the truth is that it's the original and you've just seen a lot of takes on it. Totally this. Hell, when I was visiting family recently, my sister spotted my copy of Dragonbone Chair and was like, "lol what is this, some GoT knockoff?". Yeah...
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Mar 13, 2024 03:54
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Just finished reading Blood over Bright Haven, and at least initially I don’t really know how to feel about the book. Like I really enjoyed reading it - I can’t remember the last time I read a 500 page book in 27 hours including sleep and a workday - and I like that the book is by no means without something to say. It’s not Robin Hobb or something but I enjoyed the prose and just how quickly they propelled everything forward. I would recommend it if you think the premise sounds interesting. I don’t really know what about it makes me feel that way, though. It’s like a lot of 7/10ish categories all came together to make a 9/10 book that I’ll definitely remember for awhile. And man did it end - haven’t read much recently that so definitively decided that that story is over. Anno fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Mar 13, 2024 |
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Mar 13, 2024 03:54
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Oh its from the author of The Sword of Kaigen. I bought that book but it was too.... wanna-be anime? for me to enjoy. But this one sounds like it could be more to my interests.
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Mar 13, 2024 04:23
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Khizan posted:Yeah, MS&T has the same kind of problem that Neuromancer and the Black Company books have where it's influenced enough stuff that it can feel unoriginal at times, when the truth is that it's the original and you've just seen a lot of takes on it. I read Dragonbone Chair when it first came out and it was Extruded Fantasy Product even then. I have no idea what you're talking about and am not even sure you read the same book.
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Mar 13, 2024 09:50
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Ccs posted:Oh its from the author of The Sword of Kaigen. I bought that book but it was too.... wanna-be anime? for me to enjoy. But this one sounds like it could be more to my interests. I just want to know why anyone thought Remember When I Was A Superhero In College was the thing to do in that book. There was some pretty cool worldbuilding and decently believable characters and then suddenly I was left completely baffled.
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Mar 13, 2024 11:39
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branedotorg posted:has anyone read Tad Williams recently? someone was talking about Memory, Sorrow & Thorn the other day and i realised i only read the first one Dragonborn Chair. I remember the Otherland quadrology being good when I was a teenager, if someone says its still good I'll re-read it.
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Mar 13, 2024 12:29
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zoux posted:Yeah, with his twitter account, so you won't read his books The Skinner's fun for insane wildlife and a hilarious severed head scene, but yeah his politics ain't good. Ed yeah should probably have read ahead a bit more before posting Runcible Cat fucked around with this message at 13:04 on Mar 13, 2024 |
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Mar 13, 2024 12:59
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Kestral posted:On the other hand, I deeply, dearly love the original Earthsea trilogy, and I worry that Tehanu is going to feel like one of my favorite authors just making GBS threads on something important to me. That's what I felt about The Other Wind, but I seem to be unique in that. I did like Seserakh though, she deserved a better book. I also find Orm Irian the most hilariously stupid fanfic poo poo ever even after friends have carefully explained how wrong I am.
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Mar 13, 2024 14:04
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My copy of Exordia is in, finally. It'll still have to wait until I finish reading Wild Cards: Sleeper Straddle though. This particular Wild Cards volume is one of the better ones and probably the best since the original cycle. Croyd Crenson, the Sleeper, has always been one of the most interesting characters in the setting - an immortal criminal with a heart of gold (when the crank isn't driving him to insane rages) who has to deal with being a different person every time he wakes up - and as you might guess from the title, this book is all about him. The premise is that this time the Sleeper has woken up as six different people, all with different appearances, powers and fragments of his personality, and five of them immediately started fighting or scattered in the belief that they were the only real Croyd. The sixth Croyd, who appears to have Croyd's good nature, has realised that if he doesn't get all the parts of himself back in one place before he falls asleep again he may never recombine. To this end he hires the best investigator he knows to try and locate his other selves and bring them together. The book itself comprises a frame story in which the investigator locates the Croyds be seeking out people that Croyd has known across over 70 years, and a set of the stories that they tell him about the Sleeper's life. It's got a fair few cameos from departed characters (including Dr Tachyon, although it's during his "passed out drunk" phase) and fills in a lot of detail about Croyd himself for the first time since Zelazny's last story in 1994. I don't think it stands alone as a work, but if you read a few of the 1980s books and liked Croyd it's worth dipping back in for.
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Mar 13, 2024 14:46
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Orconomics is the perfect palette cleanser to follow Exordia It's like a Pratchett book. Half the charm, which is still pretty good!
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Mar 13, 2024 15:03
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zoux posted:He's a hardish sci fi guy that doesn't believe in climate change. I can't take the man's work seriously. I read a bunch of his stuff too, but it began to dawn on me that his views and protagonists always sided with the state-run AIs and how people need to stop fighting them and let them run everything Yeah that's a thing that's always made me a little wary in sci-fi is the idea that an AI is the most competent and qualified being to lead society because of how smart it might be and its always better to let it do what it wants. Anyway, any books with more interesting/fun takes on AI? I'm not sure AI will ever actually exist (the cool sci-fi version, not the algorithms that vomit up garbage art and word salad), but man do I love AI characters in fiction, like Durendal from the Marathon games or the Tachikomas from Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex. I should really read The Culture but other recommendations would be lovely
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Mar 13, 2024 20:48
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Whirling posted:Yeah that's a thing that's always made me a little wary in sci-fi is the idea that an AI is the most competent and qualified being to lead society because of how smart it might be and its always better to let it do what it wants. READ GREG EGAN'S DIASPORA! also Aurora by Kim Stanley Robinson
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Mar 13, 2024 20:59
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Whirling posted:Yeah that's a thing that's always made me a little wary in sci-fi is the idea that an AI is the most competent and qualified being to lead society because of how smart it might be and its always better to let it do what it wants. Klara and the Sun comes to mind.
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Mar 13, 2024 21:07
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fez_machine posted:Aurora by Kim Stanley Robinson This was the first thing that came to my mind Also +1 to Klara and the Sun
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Mar 13, 2024 21:11
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Klara and the Sun is beautiful. Aurora is fantastic but I find it upsetting too. Both great.
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Mar 13, 2024 21:48
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