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It's also entirely relegated to the initial setup. The world even in MSG does not really feel like a world reeling from losing half its population
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Mar 23, 2024 18:55
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haypliss posted:Uhhh Thunderbolt and Hathaway (literally dark) maybe. The mindset definitely predates Thunderbolt otherwise you wouldn't have the insistence on 08th MS Team being "the real hard mecha show" that also happens to be a Romeo and Juliet riff where half the cast are goofballs
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Mar 23, 2024 18:59
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The mobs opinions on most things tend to be overly generalized and often baffling to people who're well acquainted with the material. VOTOMS gets it worse than Gundam, people go into it expecting Robot Vietnam which it is, but it's also got just as much DNA from something like Dune.
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Mar 23, 2024 19:03
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Framing it as a recent thing where stuff like this or Thunderbolt feel like they're making up a bigger portion of UC than Doan etc is the only way it would make any sense to me, despite still being off base.
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Mar 23, 2024 19:05
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That Works posted:Starting off your series with half of the earth dead is p grimdark. the funny thing is, this isn't even that unusual for 70s robot series. even setting aside tomino's specific reputation and the shows he worked on, baldios kills off the entire earth, and golion (voltron) has loads of onscreen gore. they're directly adjacent to kaiju movies, there's going to be some large scale destruction. the difference with gundam was the military setting and amuro's character. Mister Olympus fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Mar 23, 2024 |
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Mar 23, 2024 19:09
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Arc Hammer posted:Not really. Grimdark is more about presentation than actual content. Half of humanity dead in Gundam is shocking, true, but it isn't exactly "and then we had to start eating baby meat in the cloning vats to survive" levels of edginess Yeah you have to wait for G-Reco for actual cannibalism.
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Mar 23, 2024 19:13
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If less people just blindly skipped ZZ because 4chan said so, they would know that the UC is also about Cute Girls Who Mess Up Sometimes
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Mar 23, 2024 19:16
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Like full disclosure 08th MS Team was actually my first show because places like TvTropes had sold it as the "real robot" super hard sci-fi show. And to an extent that's true in comparison to some other series but in retrospect its hardly indicative of UC at large. I think it was maybe 2012-13 when I first watched it so the mindset has been around at least that long to influence dumbasses like my 19 year old self.
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Mar 23, 2024 19:18
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It's pretty common in all forms of entertainment media for some people to automatically assume grimmer or more outwardly "mature"/serious stories are more complex and interesting by default. Game of Thrones functionally built a pop culture following by word-of-mouth selling itself as a much more mature and serious take on medieval fantasy instead of that elves and magic stuff for dumb nerds. Warhammer 40k is the poster child for "grimdark" selling an entire setting to a huge amount of people. 08th MS Team vs Wing was definitely the first real reckoning of this in the western Gundam fandom. Wing was more popular and more outwardly silly, so contrarians latched extremely hard onto 08th MS Team and promoted it as a gritty robot Vietnam instead of the melodramatic Romeo and Juliet retelling that it is.
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Mar 23, 2024 19:57
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i think the beginning of msg was far darker than anything that happened in 8th mst. jesus christ, the scene where fraw's family dies!
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Mar 23, 2024 20:03
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This started before Mobile Suit Gundam really achieved any popularity, since both Wing and 08th aired prior to MSG on Toonami and their(and G Gundam's) success were a big reason why Bandai tried to push MSG in the west in the first place. Also while Mobile Suit Gundam is quite dark, its animation style looks a lot goofier and less "realistic" than 08th MS Team's much more modern and detailed OVA-level animation in the eyes of early aughts teenagers.
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Mar 23, 2024 20:15
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:i think the beginning of msg was far darker than anything that happened in 8th mst. jesus christ, the scene where fraw's family dies! This really. Rewatching MSG and its not like they just do disaster tourism all over but there's definitely plenty of offhand comments and short visuals of just wholly burned out / deserted cities and stuff. They could have punched that up harder, but the story was always driven by the immediate character dynamics imo.
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Mar 23, 2024 20:28
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8th mid team
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Mar 23, 2024 21:45
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Kanos posted:This started before Mobile Suit Gundam really achieved any popularity, since both Wing and 08th aired prior to MSG on Toonami and their(and G Gundam's) success were a big reason why Bandai tried to push MSG in the west in the first place. That timeline is incorrect. Wing aired on Toonami from mid-2000 to summer 2001, it was the only Gundam show airing aside from occasional special broadcasts of Endless Waltz. MSG stated in late July 2001 in the Toonami afternoon block in the same timeslot Wing had previously held, with 08th MS Team airing on the Midnight Run where the unedited Wing episodes had aired. Both got pulled because of 9/11, but a few weeks later (By mid-October), they had moved 08th MS Team to the afternoon timeslot and aired 0080 in on Midnight Run. 08th MS Team would run in the afternoons for a few months, then rotated off and on over the next year, since at 11~ episodes (They did a weird extended 45~ episode that mixed part of the normal episode 7 with Miller's Report, and never aired the actual final episode 'Last Resort'), there weren't enough episodes for it to fill the spot of a full length TV series. FWIW, MSG's final episode got aired on New Years Eve 2001, then it was on the original Adult Swim Saturday block with 0083 for a bit in 2002, but still never got a complete airing there. G Gundam didn't start airing on CN until August 2002, and IIRC while it's ratings were clearly better than MSG, it didn't hit its peak for a few months (It did well enough they allowed it to get into a second run, and I think that was where it nearly matched Wing's numbers). That said, you're correct on the latter point. MSG's poor ratings were largely attributed to its dated animation and music. Wing had been a huge hit in part because it was a newer show and its mid-90s anime look was much closer to other stuff that was becoming huge around that same time (Dragon Ball, Sailor Moon, and so on). 08th MS Team became popular in part because it had better animation with a similar look to other stuff. It was also helped a bit by the general UC toy line, as 08th had some good and popular MSiA figures released with it (The Gouf Custom was huge in U.S. polls, I remember), and that kept Gundam going in late-01/early-02. I also think on a surface level, 08th MS had a story that western (Or more specifically, American) kids could get into, as the "grunts at war" thing is pretty common in movies, video games, older TV shows, and stuff like that. Hell, I remember around the same time Gundam was first airing over here, you still had cable channels airing older shows like Combat and Black Sheep Squadron and older war movies, stuff that 08th MS is a lot more relatable to than MSG was.
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Mar 23, 2024 22:10
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tsob posted:I think you could do a lot of interesting things with the Zeon perspective, but that doing so basically requires you have a protagonist with some degree of awareness that the whole "war of independence" thing is a farce and knowledge (and acknowledgement) of some mix of (1) the fact Zeon were already essentially independent anyway, (2) that Zeon started the war, (3) that Zeon not only started the war, but did so by committing the most horrifying war crime in history against fellow Spacenoids and then followed it up with more war crimes and that (4) the war is at least partly a result of the greed of their own higher ups, and not just some noble cause. So, in other words, Plot to Assassinate Gihren.
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Mar 23, 2024 23:15
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Pausing the Requiem trailer at 0:37, I note that, yes, they've gone full-Wehrmacht and given the Zaku Zimmerit on its feet for some baffleass reason. I've seen Japanese modelers do this before, and I always thought it was dumb then, and it's still dumb now. IGLOO might not be the smartest thing they've ever done, but establishing how hard it is for infantry to deal with mobile suits was something that made sense, at least. If it's established that the main way you attack a mobile suit as infantry is either to hit the cameras or the cockpit...there's no way that even future charges would be big enough to do sufficient immobilizing damage that you'd risk getting close enough to it's feet to plant one. Never mind that this leaves us at like the 3rd basic variant of the Zaku II in a timeframe of like two weeks. Plastic_Gargoyle fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Mar 23, 2024 |
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Mar 23, 2024 23:26
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Omnicrom posted:So, in other words, Plot to Assassinate Gihren. I haven't even read that, but yeah, that'd be one way certainly going off what I've been told of it. I don't even think you need to have a story where it's about the Zeon characters actively revolting against their government though, and I think you can still sell Zeon characters who are just soldiers caught up in the war if the characters are at least aware of some of the hypocrisy and problems within Zeon as a faction and the narrative is willing to allow them to confront that information head on. Not everyone is going to have the means or even the motive to revolt, even if they have an awareness of the system. Some people are just pawns, and that is fine. They can be aware of the problems and just never have the space or means to rebel against the system for various reasons. Give me some insight into what they think of that though, if only to humanize them. You could even have them agree that the possible end result is worth the price; a show would have to do some real hard work to make that landing, but I do think it's possible for a character to be aware of at least some of what Zeon has done and go "yes, what we did was terrible, but it was also necessary and/or inevitable because of this history/context" and for that perspective to work because some people do believe terrible things for various reasons. They're not even all horrible monsters, and a lot of people who have terrible beliefs are generally good people to those they directly interact with. Show me why they came to believe in the war despite the things Zeon did, what made them extremists willing to commit to such horrific violence so long as they do commit horrific violence. What happened to them? What did they see themselves that radicalized them? What information or propaganda did they ingest? etc.
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Mar 24, 2024 00:16
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Waffleman_ posted:Yeah, and this is why I keep saying I don't trust a WH40k fan with the idea lmao 40k fans have a lot of experience with narratives about people stuck fighting for monstrous genocidal societies. That’s basically the whole thing. And you even hear the lead lady express doubts about the whole thing in the trailer. It looks like it at least going to be less pro-Zeon than Igloo was.
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Mar 24, 2024 00:58
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Just saw Freedom today. About as stupid and awesome as I could have hoped for.
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Mar 24, 2024 01:54
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Waffleman_ posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYtVRYyjhKU I had a singular request for this show, "Do not Igloo me again." And from everything I've seen, it is utterly failing to not Igloo me again. In general I also find the action that we see lackluster, and the entire idea of the Gundam as the big lumbering Kaiju is really silly when Zeon has mobile suits. It does nothing to actually capture "The Terror of the Gundam to a Grunt." Which was done exceptionally in Thunderbolt and has plenty of supplemental material for how to capture that essence. You would think if they wanted to capture the essence of the Gundam's terror in a way that hadn't before, one of the few ways it's struggled is the sensation of staring at a giant, part of the In-Universe reason for the two eyes was the capture the visage of a human, rather than a machine of war. But the Gundam moves too clunky and slow and not with enough humanity to capture the essence of "I am not looking upon a machine but instead a man." All of this to give us what? Another show from the perspective of Zeon that's either going to go 1. SIEG ZEON SPACE SAMURAI FIGHTING FOR INDEPENDENCE or 2. Let's just ignore all the war crimes. People try to go "Why are we fighting for this rock" "Because those are our orders." As an example of "ooooh maybe she'll change her mind." Meanwhile I find it loving stupid that anyone in the Zeon military hasn't been hammered with "We're doing this for our independence from the Earth." Also, given the general presentation of people starving in space/lack of resources, you'd think they'd not refer to "The only inhabitable planet" as "this rock." It just... it's a skinwalker Gundam show. Hey maybe I'm wrong, maybe this trailer is just really bad. But I'm probably not and it's probably gonna be really poo poo.
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Mar 24, 2024 02:01
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Also like, the Gundam was so scary because it had Amuro piloting it, and he was really good at it probably due to Newtype. Having it be just a new Gundam steals that White Devil valor
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Mar 24, 2024 02:03
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It was absolutely not due to Newtype, and the show goes out of it's way to point out that he's an exceptional pilot for other reasons way before he starts to awaken as a Newtype, which isn't until episode 22 or 23 if I recall; when fighting the Black Tri-Stars. His skill is a mixture of natural talent, training and experience because after only about a week or so aboard the White Bse he's already put in 70 odd hours of training according to dialogue between simulators and flying the unit in various scenarios, which doesn't account for any time he'd have had to spend repairing the unit or any time he spent examining it out of personal curiosity. His Newtype skill just complimented his existing talent, not explained it.
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Mar 24, 2024 02:10
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Onmi posted:It does nothing to actually capture "The Terror of the Gundam to a Grunt." Which was done exceptionally in Thunderbolt and has plenty of supplemental material for how to capture that essence. RX-78 derivatives in the OYW epoch are numerous enough to fall into the grunt category themselves now.
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Mar 24, 2024 02:35
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Waffleman_ posted:Also like, the Gundam was so scary because it had Amuro piloting it, and he was really good at it probably due to Newtype. There's a fair few pieces of UC media that do a decent job of selling non-Amuro Gundams as terrifying. There's even some previous animated examples. Thunderbolt was mentioned and does a fantastic job. 0080 has the Alex be a monster that effortlessly tanks a direct hit from the Kampfer's point blank chain mines before summarily blowing the Kampfer to pieces with a blurt of machine gun fire and then acting as a final dragon for Bernie to try to slay.
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Mar 24, 2024 03:11
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While I liked Doans Island I hated how the Zakus moved in it. Flying around effortlessly slicing other MS to bits.
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Mar 24, 2024 03:37
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Whatever 08th MS Team is, it's a 90s Sunrise OVA with character designs by the Bebop guy, it's just incredible coolness. Not that there can or should be a consensus on any Gundam series, that's part of the beauty of it. Like being a toku fan, you're not gonna see five fans give the same order of their fav Kamen Rider shows.
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Mar 24, 2024 04:46
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ManSedan posted:While I liked Doans Island I hated how the Zakus moved in it. Flying around effortlessly slicing other MS to bits. They were specifically high mobility Zakus, for whatever that's worth. They moved different from Doan's old school Zaku so that his skills could be shown off better against his old team and their superior tech, while still putting everyone in Zakus. If we're looking at other Zeon series for comparison to the new one and Igloo, I'd say the best reference point within Gundam isn't Plot, which is about high level politics, but Iron Mustang, the Time Be Still spinoff. I've spoken in its praise before, and I probably will a lot more after this series lands (and probably craps the bed) but to give the quick version, it's a grunt's eye view of the war with a sympathetic lead who just wants to go home, but it doesn't completely absolve him of being a cog in the war machine, despite his portrayal as an overall good guy. You get civilians talking about how lovely Zeon soldiers tend to be, a Feddie officer calling our hero a murderer for being part of the force that dropped a colony on her home right in front of her, even while he's trying to save her life, and a Zaku pilot surrendering and committing suicide by military when that fails when confronted with the weight of Zeon's crimes. It's a pretty good read, and it does a lot more to give texture to the gruntiest of grunts in the war than most Gundam media. (The protagonist isn't even a Zaku pilot or commissioned. He's a CPO and a Wappa jock.) By contrast, Vengeance having the lead be a decorated officer with supposed amazing achievements at Loum hurts some of the big avenues of viewer sympathy for "the bad guys". You're not seeing a grunt deal with poo poo that he or she never shoveled, but someone able to make choices who's sticking with the wrong ones. (Yes, yes, nuances everywhere when figuring out how to depict sympathetic people on the wrong side. But I'm going broad strokes for speed.) Can't do anything too in depth with the little we have, but I'd be surprised to see this work.
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Mar 24, 2024 05:35
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Char sank 5 ships at Loum but random Zaku squadron destroyed 5 whole fleets at Loum
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Mar 24, 2024 05:41
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Waffleman_ posted:It's also entirely relegated to the initial setup. The world even in MSG does not really feel like a world reeling from losing half its population The environmental situation on Earth does get increasingly bleak over the course of Tomino's original UC saga, though. By ZZ, they're having to terraform Europe, and that's before the vision of hell that is the Dublin drop.
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Mar 24, 2024 08:54
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https://twitter.com/gouftroop/status/1771927110015455429?t=dOeLK9BXemL-fSjHV9LzBg&s=19 March Madness featuring Bright
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Mar 24, 2024 19:00
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Bright has big ally vibes.
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Mar 24, 2024 19:32
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Bright doesn't care how you identify as long as you identify as a teenager who steals a Gundam.
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Mar 24, 2024 19:41
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RFV Zaku Pilot is named Iria Sorari which to me sounds like its supposed to be Illia Solari but got transcribed directly from Japanese pronunciation. Like Dianna Soreil instead of Soleil.
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Mar 25, 2024 00:08
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The right wing reactionaries are getting mad that Requiem has a character with pink hair, saying it's unrealistic, and i simply must laugh
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Mar 25, 2024 06:23
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looking forward to MS Igloo S3!
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Mar 25, 2024 06:29
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pink hair is genetic among animes
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Mar 25, 2024 06:41
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https://twitter.com/GundamPodcast/status/1772255649029673182?t=VKdINDR2doQTrjjyFgVKRA&s=19
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Mar 25, 2024 15:09
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Oops I forgot to check in on the tourney over the weekend and now we’re in the Big 8 First up today, it’s Marida Cruz versus Miorine Rembran! Which show with rainbow Gundam magic will win? https://twitter.com/darthveda00/status/1772247073271710057 Next up, we’re pitting Haman Larn against Loran Cehack! Will Axis remain undefeated? Or will the Moon claim victory? https://twitter.com/darthveda00/status/1772247108906537334
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Mar 25, 2024 15:45
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haman will win this tourney no question loran keeping it within 5% apart will not shake me
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Mar 25, 2024 17:23
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why arent the goufs blue in reqiuem are they really that stupid
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Mar 25, 2024 17:38
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