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FuturePastNow posted:The crowd gets thinner and less enthusiastic the lower the score is This is legit really funny. "Your computer sucks so now your WoL is sad and has no friends."
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Apr 17, 2024 16:45
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Trying to find that sweet spot where it will still run the benchmark without crashing while still scoring less than 500 was tough enough. I can't imagine how to get a sub 100.
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Apr 17, 2024 16:48
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I have no frame of reference for what a capable machine is or whether I was fiddling with the settings correctly, but my HP Pavillion with "10th gen core i7" processor and "Iris Plus" graphics card was consistently scoring me in the 400 range
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Apr 17, 2024 17:00
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Augus posted:It’s exactly because you have more polys to work with that going from high to low is easier. A high-poly mesh can be exactly what you want it to be, so when you reduce it down to a low-poly model that can work in-game you know exactly what details you’re trying to preserve and what can be simplified without radically changing the look of the model. When you’re going low to high, you‘re adding detail where there wasn’t any before. you need to turn flat planes into smooth curves. It’s hard to do that while also meeting audience expectations that are, in part, colored by how they interpreted those gaps in detail from the low-poly model. Ah thanks for explaining your reasoning to me. I absolutely see what you’re saying now. I’ve been very very tired and I think I was misunderstanding what you were trying to say because someone else responded to me and I thought it was you at first. The discussion became much more abstract and I was fixated on this specific scenario without considering things more broadly. Going from something like a pixel sprite or a ps1 model to a realistic high definition model isn’t what I had in mind. That’s a different beast than taking something fairly well defined and defining it further. You have more of a guide to follow with the latter. What is and isn’t easier isn’t really relevant to the thread anyway and the subject matter was different in my head. I’m sorry. What I was originally responding to was someone saying it’s not really possible to increase the polycount of the characters faces while meeting everyone’s expectations for what those facial features should look like. And the only other option was to not try to. I said “no such difficulty exists” which was a chimp brained choice of words that I regret. Of course it’s difficult. Pretty much everything about modelling is difficult and pleasing every single person is of course always impossible. I guess what my thoughts are despite my communication failures, is that there are races/subraces or even individual faces that are receiving no complaints, while others are receiving tons, so I think avoiding this situation with a lot of upset people was likely possible? At least in my own experience, part of overcoming that challenge is constantly comparing and overlaying what I’m making over the original to see if I’ve gone too astray. I just took a lower poly full body mesh I made previously and manually upscaled it for rigging and animations recently. If the original is already fairly defined like with ffxivs models, it’s not as difficult because you’re not having to make up as much. There’s a reasonable guide to follow. Maintaining the same look and feel was very important on that model I worked on so that’s the method I followed. That’s a ton of work obviously and should only be done in situations exactly like this where there’s a lot riding on nailing it. But if you do that well enough and are a perfectionist about it you can arrive at something that’s going to satisfy nearly everyone more or less. I just felt that, probably due to time constraints, that check to make sure the meshes hadn’t gone too astray of their original profiles doesn’t seem to have been as carefully made on some races and faces. The volume of complaints from people about specific races/subraces while others have nearly no complaints at all, combined with comparing the before and afters myself makes me think that’s probably the case. I think a better job of preserving features across the board was possible, or at least would have been with a more reasonable amount of time. Might still be if they commit to keep working on it post 7.0. Do you think that’s a fair opinion, or am I off base? Edit: Actually to be honest, this took so long to write and it’s such a tl;dr wall of text that I don’t even really have the energy for more. Don’t feel pressed to respond. I’m happy to leave it at “my cat changed and I’m sad and I hope they fix that” and move on.
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Apr 17, 2024 17:29
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Don't feel too bad man, in your case there is a clear difference and is something the devs did mention would happen, but I wouldn't fully blame them on developing for other races (cause then Miqo'te would absolutely be first priority and we know it). As mentioned in this thread maybe you can try to use the benchmark to fiddle with settings and see if you can make your character resemble the old design, there's a reason Yoshi-P is thinking how to give everyone a Fantasia.
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Apr 17, 2024 18:30
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Is there seriously no place other than the website to download the benchmark? It caps me at like 200KB/s for some reason when even the notoriously slow and terrible Steam usually lets me at least have like 2MB/s minimum.
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Apr 17, 2024 18:41
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GiantRockFromSpace posted:Don't feel too bad man, in your case there is a clear difference and is something the devs did mention would happen, but I wouldn't fully blame them on developing for other races (cause then Miqo'te would absolutely be first priority and we know it). As mentioned in this thread maybe you can try to use the benchmark to fiddle with settings and see if you can make your character resemble the old design, there's a reason Yoshi-P is thinking how to give everyone a Fantasia. Yeah, I tried and no luck. Tried every option, pulled every knob and twisted every dial. Gamma slider and all. All of my concerns are with face 4 losing a lot of it’s charming little quirky details that made the face unique amongst the other options. A lot of the changes have made it more conventionally pretty and feminine like the huge lashes, straighter nose, shorter and duller fangs, and fuller lighter brows. I picked that face originally because that wasn’t the vibe I was after and every other face was like that. It seems like all the other face 4 havers who have dropped by my ffxiv forum thread about it have said they did exactly the same and feel the same way. So at least I know I’m not alone. That’s heartening. Also let’s be real. I would put good money I don’t have on them doing lala’s first  . Miqo has a ton of NA players but a full quarter of Japanese players play Lala apparently and so does YoshiP. They like potatoes over there.
Cheap Shot fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Apr 17, 2024 |
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Apr 17, 2024 18:52
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i exported the default WoL face from the EW and DT benchmarks, the EW face has 3012 vertices and the DT face has 5694, if anyone was wondering what they were working with. the DT faces also have a more unified texture layout and are have significantly more complex skeletons and bone weighting to leverage an internal SE library (kinedriver) for better handling deformation during expressions. this library was used on FF15, FF16, FF7R, KH3, and even their AA games like valkyrie elysium. they likely did this so they can more easily bring in people from other SE teams and leverage skills built up during the ff16 dev process. it is likely these changes are what have caused most differences to the mesh itself. it is unfortunate if you dislike it but i suspect they made a "lets improve the workflow" call. unrelated to faces but kinedriver is active on a few of the new AF sets in order to better handle deformation of cloth around joints. one specific example is the sleeves on the summoner top, which should better hold their shape during movement. the other piece of internal tech they added is bonamik, which is a physics library. there arent any definitions for it in the benchmark so it isnt active but there's enough evidence to show its going to be driving hair and cloth physics in the future.
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Apr 17, 2024 18:58
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a big focus of the graphics update/tweaks seem to be making certain faces/things less awkward. this is especially noticeable with elezen, especially male elezen, who all looked a little goofy up until now. they look basically universally better in dawntrail. however, what the devs see as awkward or a little out of step with what their intent was and what the players do isnt always the same. stuff like some of the faces becoming 'prettier' or the fangs getting smaller are probably examples of that.
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Apr 17, 2024 19:00
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I don't doubt that the graphical update will be a bit of a living project for a while after launch, especially as they begin to work on older assets. A little bit of back and forth as they get more feedback from players once they get in the game itself.
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Apr 17, 2024 19:07
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IE: Devs "fixing" Viera voice 7 despite there being nothing wrong with it.
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Apr 17, 2024 19:08
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Waffleman_ posted:I don't doubt that the graphical update will be a bit of a living project for a while after launch, especially as they begin to work on older assets. A little bit of back and forth as they get more feedback from players once they get in the game itself. Fingers crossed we get the good FSR in 7.05 or whatever.
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Apr 17, 2024 19:09
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the good FSR's SDK only supports DX12 and we are on DX11
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Apr 17, 2024 19:14
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Gotta wait for PS4 Limitations to go away
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Apr 17, 2024 19:14
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aers posted:i exported the default WoL face from the EW and DT benchmarks, the EW face has 3012 vertices and the DT face has 5694, if anyone was wondering what they were working with. That’s really interesting, thank you for sharing all that information! I’ve seen that mouthes being pretty different across the board has been what people notice first and most prominently. I assumed it was because they put in a lot of additional bones for new animations and sounds like that’s it. I bet they’ll be tweaking that ongoing, although I doubt I’ll ever get the part in my lips back.
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Apr 17, 2024 19:17
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GiantRockFromSpace posted:IE: Devs "fixing" Viera voice 7 despite there being nothing wrong with it. bring back the haunted granny https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo2XtnYpnIg
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Apr 17, 2024 19:29
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aers posted:the good FSR's SDK only supports DX12 and we are on DX11 there exists source for it somewhere, i'm sure someone can get it going. amd has only said they don't have the resources to maintain dx11 fsr2 in the public release. it exists for unity and puredark has it implemented for some other dx11 games https://www.patreon.com/posts/fsr2-native-dx11-88254482, maybe someone'll pay him to do it
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Apr 17, 2024 20:21
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parasyte posted:there exists source for it somewhere, i'm sure someone can get it going. amd has only said they don't have the resources to maintain dx11 fsr2 in the public release. it exists for unity and puredark has it implemented for some other dx11 games https://www.patreon.com/posts/fsr2-native-dx11-88254482, maybe someone'll pay him to do it oh i meant they (SE) wont implement it because its unsupported. anyone can mod it in sure.
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Apr 17, 2024 20:28
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Endorph posted:a big focus of the graphics update/tweaks seem to be making certain faces/things less awkward. this is especially noticeable with elezen, especially male elezen, who all looked a little goofy up until now. they look basically universally better in dawntrail. I fantasia a lot, sometimes to change tiny details, so I'm probably not one to stress over tiny changes. But I will say that for some races and faces, the slight awkwardness and minor imperfections are a large part of the charm. Losing it is not an improvement. Also the Mooncat fangs were their #1 feature and if the developers didn't realize that, they are hopelessly out of touch
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Apr 17, 2024 20:35
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As someone else wrote I was happy with the graphic upgrade announcement but little did I know they'd make it much worse than what I originally had in the first place which kinda makes me feel conflicted 
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Apr 17, 2024 20:42
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My Face 4 (assuming 4 is the one on the far right) tomboy catgirl looks the same to me:   There are visible differences between the two shots, but they're attributable to the different skin shaders and lighting making the contours look different under these conditions. In the actual benchmark, everything looks totally fine.
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Apr 17, 2024 20:44
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Electric Phantasm posted:Drivers seem up to date. This got me to look up just how old this hand me down is and I've been playing on a decade old GPU and CPU this whole time. (Geforce 770 and Intel 4670K) Bruceski posted:I'm a couple of years after you on both (960 and 6600) and was worried it wouldn't let me run it so yeah, you might be out of luck. Did you already preorder? coming back to this i wish i knew how to troubleshoot it but there's not really a difference as far as shader model support, vram, or cpu instruction sets between those two. kepler is obviously going to perform worse than maxwell but they both support similar shaders. i think maxwell is dx12_1 vs kepler's dx12_0 but since xiv's still dx11 it's not obvious why that would make a difference, and a 960 and 770 specifically are not far apart in performance, the 770 should be stronger in many cases. basically it seems like it should work, i've seen word people have it running with i5-2xxx series processors even.
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Apr 17, 2024 21:05
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parasyte posted:coming back to this i wish i knew how to troubleshoot it but there's not really a difference as far as shader model support, vram, or cpu instruction sets between those two. kepler is obviously going to perform worse than maxwell but they both support similar shaders. i think maxwell is dx12_1 vs kepler's dx12_0 but since xiv's still dx11 it's not obvious why that would make a difference, and a 960 and 770 specifically are not far apart in performance, the 770 should be stronger in many cases. Yeah, particularly since they've come out and said that at least some of their minimums are because of hardware that's no longer supported in general rather than ones that cannot perform (I know this is the case for Intel CPUs) it can be hard to figure out logic and what's being flagged to signal a failure instead of just "performance not guaranteed".
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Apr 17, 2024 21:51
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Waffleman_ posted:I don't doubt that the graphical update will be a bit of a living project for a while after launch, especially as they begin to work on older assets. A little bit of back and forth as they get more feedback from players once they get in the game itself. i would be pretty shocked if there are any changes post-launch before another expansion or two has passed honestly. none of the changes look Objectively Bad, they just look different from what people expected or are used to, so imagine the response if people use their free fantasias to "fix" their characters after DT drops and then a year down the road SE messed with their face again
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Apr 17, 2024 22:34
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Countblanc posted:i would be pretty shocked if there are any changes post-launch before another expansion or two has passed honestly. none of the changes look Objectively Bad, they just look different from what people expected or are used to, so imagine the response if people use their free fantasias to "fix" their characters after DT drops and then a year down the road SE messed with their face again I mean, they'll be doing updates to areas, NPCs, equipment and furniture throughout the entire 7.X patch releases. If there's a common complaint about the WoL character options (and the devs agree) I can totally see them implementing some fixes.
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Apr 17, 2024 22:45
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Rosalind posted:That sucks. I'm not sure what your situation is but I'm just going to suggest some possible options that I sent to a friend in a similar situation recently: Appreciate the suggestions! parasyte posted:coming back to this i wish i knew how to troubleshoot it but there's not really a difference as far as shader model support, vram, or cpu instruction sets between those two. kepler is obviously going to perform worse than maxwell but they both support similar shaders. i think maxwell is dx12_1 vs kepler's dx12_0 but since xiv's still dx11 it's not obvious why that would make a difference, and a 960 and 770 specifically are not far apart in performance, the 770 should be stronger in many cases. The only thing I can think of is something up with the 770. Even before this I'm having issue with the game crashing due to a "Fatal DirectX error" even with the suggestions people recommended me a while back. I also have noticed some odd graphical glitches with the shadows as well.
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Apr 17, 2024 23:03
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Just to check, Viera/Hroth hats are still "as we find time" as far as official info goes?
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Apr 17, 2024 23:04
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What I love about Viera hats is that you just don't have 90% of them, and then you get the random poo poo like edgelord cryptlurker hoods that have your big bunny ears poking out lol
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Apr 17, 2024 23:12
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blastron posted:My Face 4 (assuming 4 is the one on the far right) tomboy catgirl looks the same to me: The right one looks like she's the original's younger sibling to me. The nose is the biggest difference by far, but the rounder jawline is also quite noticeable to my eyes. Still looks really good though.
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Apr 17, 2024 23:23
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Professor Beetus posted:What I love about Viera hats is that you just don't have 90% of them, and then you get the random poo poo like edgelord cryptlurker hoods that have your big bunny ears poking out lol almost all hoods copy and paste their model from the low level robes that combine the robe and hood into a single piece, and they had to make those compatible with Viera
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Apr 17, 2024 23:38
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I'd like to take this moment to point out there's some fascinating psychology/neurology about how we recognize faces. Basically as part of development we learn what parts of the face differ in the people we usually need to tell apart, and focus on those parts while thinking we see the whole thing. Some people might have a smaller lexicon than others. For example my twin brother and I look very similar but to us the difference is obvious and we can tell who takes after which side of the family, even in baby pictures which have the fewest other variables influencing things. Some people could tell us apart as soon as they met us, others knew us for fifteen years and would still struggle (and they were making the effort, believe me we could tell when someone didn't care). What I'm saying is, it's very possible for some people to look at these before/after pictures and disagree on how different they look.
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Apr 17, 2024 23:38
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the jawline's a good example of the difficulty of modest upscaling: the difference in structure looks like a single extra subdivision around the curve of the jaw to reduce the boxiness, but the subsurface scattering shaders are softening the shadows so that there's significantly less harsh definition, creating a softer curve. even someone hand-tweaking the geometry isn't going to be able to recapture the exact look of the original, since they're not going to be the ones spending time programming the shaders
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Apr 17, 2024 23:39
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FuturePastNow posted:almost all hoods copy and paste their model from the low level robes that combine the robe and hood into a single piece, and they had to make those compatible with Viera Ohhhhhh that makes perfect sense.
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Apr 17, 2024 23:40
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 If anything, my Face 3 Felezen's skin got darker. Aside from the lighting in the CC, I'm actually pretty happy with how she hashed out. E: wait they got rid of the snickers dick vein on the ears Waffleman_ fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Apr 17, 2024 |
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Apr 17, 2024 23:44
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zero structural integrity on those ears
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Apr 17, 2024 23:49
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7.1 patch notes: all elezen ears now have scaffolding attached to them to maintain integrity
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Apr 17, 2024 23:50
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Bruceski posted:What I'm saying is, it's very possible for some people to look at these before/after pictures and disagree on how different they look. For sure! To be clear, I have no issue whatsoever with OP not seeing the differences. Just highlighting exactly what you point out: how different facial perception gets in-between people.
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Apr 18, 2024 00:01
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blastron posted:My Face 4 (assuming 4 is the one on the far right) tomboy catgirl looks the same to me: Putting another 2¢ into the discussion on how people recognize faces differently: I see a very clear difference in the curvature of the upper eyelid here. The old one has a portion that's a flat line; the new one is a smooth curve throughout. The outer corner of the eyelids also reads as a little lower in the new version; there, the eyelash covers the segment that used to read as the line of the eyelid, so it seems like the eyelash attaches a little lower down. Together, the changes make the eyes look less sharp and read as more "stereotypically feminine" to me. My at-a-glance impression from other people's before-and-after screenshots is that more than a few of the eye changes for female models erred on the side of smoothing and softening curves. I'd have to take a systematic look to say if that happened for just the female faces or for faces across the board, though. 
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Apr 18, 2024 02:23
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My biggest worry about how my WoL's face is gonna look is something I can't even check right now. I worry about how my Elegant Rimless Glasses are going to look with the new lighting system. They've always had a very distinctive shine/glare to the lenses, and if the whole lighting system is changing... 
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Apr 18, 2024 03:00
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I really hope we get a bunch of new glasses with the new face accessory slot, I've never actually found a pair that I like despite being a big Glasses Enjoyer.
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Apr 18, 2024 03:02
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