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This thread spun out of the "Awesome Documentaries" thread, right around here: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3269030&pagenumber=91#lastpost and an A/T thread was requested by a few posters to avoid a derail, so here it is. For those of you unfamiliar with the the West Memphis Three: quote:The West Memphis Three are three men who were tried and convicted as teenagers in 1994 of the 1993 murders of three boys in West Memphis, Arkansas. Damien Echols was sentenced to death, Jessie Misskelley, Jr. was sentenced to life imprisonment plus two 20-year sentences, and Jason Baldwin was sentenced to life imprisonment. During the trial, the prosecution asserted that the children were killed as part of a Satanic ritual.[1][2][3] A number of documentaries have been based on the case, and celebrities and musicians have held fund raisers in the belief that they are innocent. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Memphis_Three Three kids spent 18 years in prison for a crime they didn't commit and that was blamed on Devil worship. They're out of jail through something called an Alford Plea. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alford_plea I am by no means an expert on this case but I know a great deal more than most. I've spoken and corresponded in person with several supporters of the WM3's innocence, have read the trial transcripts, have read every book and seen every film connected to the case, have donated money to the defense, am well known and active on several message boards (including boards that believe in the WM3's guilt) and have spoken to John Mark Byers on the phone and through e-mail several times. I am privy to a few "behind the scenes" type of things that are currently ongoing. I have to be careful what I share because I will not betray anyone's trust but will reveal, with their permission, the things that I am learning that are still ongoing To post an entire OP here would not only be daunting but also redundant, so I C&P'd the basic elements from Wikipedia and will link what I've found to be places to find good information about the case. BOOKS: Devils Knot (by Mara Leveritt): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil%27s_knot The Blood of Innocents: The True Story of Multiple Murder in West Memphis, Arkansas (by Guy Reel): http://www.amazon.com/The-Blood-Innocents-Multiple-Arkansas/dp/078601363X Dark Spell: Surviving the Sentence (by Mara Leveritt) http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Spell-Surviving-Sentence-Justice/dp/1499175752 Untying the Knot (by John Mark Byers): http://www.amazon.com/Untying-Knot-Byers-Memphis-Three-ebook/dp/B0083J4GGE Yours For Eternity - by Damien Echols: http://www.amazon.com/Yours-Eternity-Love-Story-Death-ebook/dp/B00G3L156S Almost Home (by Damien Echols): http://www.amazon.com/Almost-Home-L...ols+almost+home Life After Death (by Damien Echols) http://www.amazon.com/Life-After-De...s=damien+Echols FILMS: The Paradise lost Trilogy ( by Joe Berlinger and Bruce Sinofsky ): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skCBbopl8FY West of Memphis (By Peter Jackson and Amy Berg): https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=West+of+Memphis I don't think the entire movie is on YouTube but it's out there. I watched on Comcast OnDemand. It may be on Netflix and i know it's on DVD. IMO, it;s the best of the 5 films on the case. Dramatization: "Devil's Knot": http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0804463/ Don't waste your time with this one. It's just a re-enactment of the documentaries. Message boards: This is the only one really active at all anymore. Since the WM3 were released, most of the discussion and debate has moved to Facebook but I'm not a member. http://westmemphisthreediscussion.yuku.com/forums/5/General-Case-Discussion/General-Case-Discussion#.UdMtQlMZzHA There was a board for a while called 'The Blackboard', started by John Mark Byers and one of his friends around 2005 or so after they both "switched sides" and began to profess the WM3's innocence, but it has fallen by the wayside. Byers still maintains the innocence of the WM3 and believe Terry Wayne Hobbs to be the killer. His friend has since reverted back to a non-supporter and also claims to have evidence that Byers was involved. Ah poo poo. I almost forgot. The website is the best and most concise collection of official transcripts, statements, documents and everything else regarding this case.  Start here if you want to know anything: http://callahan.8k.com/ I am in no way objective regarding this case. I believe the WM3 are innocent and that one Terry Wayne Hobbs is the murderer. My opinions are based not only on the things I've gleaned from the books and films, but through interacting with supporters (and non-supporters alike) through various message boards, phone calls and e-mails. To post a true OP would go on forever and has been done better and more thoroughly elsewhere so I'll save myself the time in that regard. This case is layer upon layer of psuedo-science, innuendo, heresay, railroading and just pure bullshit that it's doubtful we'll ever know the truth about it, but it's fascinating to study as a prime example of how the justice system works against the poor and disadvantaged. Anyway...ask me questions. With the permission of the guys in the in the C/D Documentary thread, I'll cross post their stuff and get this discussion going. With the permission of the people I know who are connected to the case, I'll post what they tell me too.
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Aug 11, 2014 20:30
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We've been discussing this on and off in the documentaries thread, but what do you make of the importance placed by the movie West of Memphis on Jennifer Bearden and her alibi, despite the fact that her alibi actually is no good. The movie claims that despite being able to provide an alibi for Echols, she was never called to testify. The truth is that the prosecution made sure she was available but the defence decided not to call on her because she couldn't cover for the missing hours. Echols also lied multiple times about what he was doing that day. Is this the facts of the case getting distorted, or deliberate misinformation by the movie? As someone who believes their innocence, do you think there's anything that actually points towards their guilt?
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Aug 11, 2014 21:43
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I'd be interested in knowing the facts about Misskelley's confession, in that in Paradise Lost they say (or at least heavily imply) that he only gave the one confession after a few hour's examination, but other places day he repeated it several other times too and kept the facts the same. I mean, it's known that the kid has a really low IQ and that he didn't testify against the others in court, which all kinda counts against the veracity of it anyway. I'd also heard rumours about Echols having killed a dog at some point? Anyone know what that's about, if it was actually a thing or just a rumour? Pretty sure they're innocent too but it's not like Paradise Lost was an unbiased source and that's been the only thing I've seen. Edit: Oh hey I'd love to hear what you and Byers talked about. He seemed more like a guy strung out on drugs, grief and guilt about not being a better dad than a murderer, but drat, did Paradise Lost 2 point the finger at him. Kojiro fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Aug 11, 2014 |
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Aug 11, 2014 21:53
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Kojiro posted:I'd be interested in knowing the facts about Misskelley's confession, in that in Paradise Lost they say (or at least heavily imply) that he only gave the one confession after a few hour's examination, but other places day he repeated it several other times too and kept the facts the same. I know BiggerBoat will add to these, but Miskelley's initial confession was obtained about 2.30pm after being brought into the station at about 10am. During that time he failed a polygraph test as well. That day he was only questioned for about 2 hours before confessing. He also confesses to his lawyers and re-iterates that in February '94 before the issue of a 'false confession' is brought up. As for Echols. It's in his psych file that he stomped a dog to death. He also attacked a kid in school and almost took his eye out. I know that the anti-WM3 people have used his psych file as proof that he was a psychopath (It's unfortunate that it mentions the times Echols told people he was going to sacrifice his newborn) but I don't think that's really the case. What is true is that Echols and his Wife now make out the file was the product of one vindictive person, when in reality it was written by various Doctors, Nurses and social workers. I get why Echols would do it, but I don't know why they'd lie about something that can be easily checked. DrVenkman fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Aug 11, 2014 |
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Aug 11, 2014 22:13
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DrVenkman posted:We've been discussing this on and off in the documentaries thread, but what do you make of the importance placed by the movie West of Memphis on Jennifer Bearden and her alibi, despite the fact that her alibi actually is no good. The movie claims that despite being able to provide an alibi for Echols, she was never called to testify. The truth is that the prosecution made sure she was available but the defence decided not to call on her because she couldn't cover for the missing hours. Echols also lied multiple times about what he was doing that day. Is this the facts of the case getting distorted, or deliberate misinformation by the movie? I chalk up the lack of an alibi to the defendants not placing any real significance to the date and time in question. They didn't know what they needed an alibi for nor for what time. I mean, honestly, could you tell me what you were doing precisely at 2:00, 5:00 and 8:00 pm two weeks ago to the date? I couldn't. It seems to me if they'd really done it, their alibis would have been tighter and more coherent, especially since two weeks had gone by. The defense attempted to subpoena phone records for time in question but were told that those records (local telephone calls) were not kept. DrVenkman posted:As someone who believes their innocence, do you think there's anything that actually points towards their guilt? Not much, no. Like what, for instance? I can't think of anything beyond the confession of Miskelly (which got everything wrong every time he said it) and the Hollingsworth family saying they'd seen Damien walking along the service road around the time of the murders, except the Hollingsworths said Damien was walking with his girlfriend, Domini. Not Jason. The only other thing I can think of is the girls saying Damien confessed at the softball field but they have since recanted and maintain they don't know what they heard, if anything. In my mind, it just sounds like some dumb poo poo Damien would say sarcastically to be spooky and get a rise out of people. "Yeah. I killed them. And I got THREE MORE PICKED OUT." duh..duh...duuuuuuuuhh.. I mean, he really was a narcissistic little prick who got off on getting a rise out of the backwoods rednecks he was surrounded by but this thing just doesn't fit. The evidence doesn't fit the crime. In cases like this, it's almost ALWAYS a close family friend or family member, someone in their late 20's or early 30'sThe more I've dug into the case over the years, the more I've learned to simply follow the physical evidence. If they'd done it, their DNA would have turned up during the rounds of testing done in the 2000's. Three drunk, stoned teenagers on a thrill kill would have left something or hosed up somewhere. Jason mowed his Uncle's yard, played video games at Wal-Mart then traded some heavy metal cassettes with a friend of his.
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Aug 11, 2014 23:28
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after reading the post's in the documentary thread as well as my admittedly limited knowledge of the WM3 (I only came across it after purchasing a Michale Graves CD which featured song's written by Damien Echol's, the case as far as I'm aware wasn't widely publicized in the UK) I look forward to reading this thread as it certainly is an intriguing situation. Not a question really just showing my support for the thread.
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Aug 12, 2014 00:20
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Aw, gently caress me right out loud. I wrote a long, detailed post addressing the Miskelly confessions and my conversations with Byers and lost it. hosed it right up somehow closing the wrong tab. Motherfucker. I'll re-write it again when I have time. Meanwhile, if anyone has seen PL2 and wants to talk about bite marks, look at this: quote:The "bite mark" on Steve Branch that caused so much hulabaloo in PL2 matches a partial denture that was found in a lock box owned by Terry Wayne Hobbs. Also in the lockbox was a 1993 (the year the boys were murdered) penny and Stevie's pocket knife. That was all that was in there.
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Aug 12, 2014 00:20
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Kojiro posted:I'd be interested in knowing the facts about Misskelley's confession, in that in Paradise Lost they say (or at least heavily imply) that he only gave the one confession after a few hour's examination, but other places day he repeated it several other times too and kept the facts the same. Miskelly did confess multiple times but he never got any of the details correct. They were all as far off as the previous ones. He kept confessing because he naively believed that if he finally just told the story correctly, they'd let him go home. He didn't know the cops from his own lawyer. He went down to the station because there was a $10,000 reward for information and hoped to collect it by sharing the rumors he'd heard. He had no counsel either. The police never once took him the crime scene (which is S.O.P. for these sorts of things) because they knew he couldn't lead them to it. None of the details of Jessie's confessions match the evidence. There were no knives used in the attacks nor was there any evidence of rape. Here are the leading forensic experts in the world opining independently about the murders and what the evidence shows: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT4KJxr_2J0 It's in 6 or 7 parts. This is a good breakdown of everything wrong with Jessie's story: http://www.statementanalysis.com/WM3/jesse-misskelley-confession/ The dog incident with Damien an unsubstantiated rumor. There's really no way to tell the truth about that but, regardless, that's still not evidence linking Echols to the crime. Damien was a hosed up, narcissistic little poo poo back then (and still is to some degree), who did himself no favors on the witness stand or through his smart rear end theatrics but there's still no physical evidence linking him to the crime. Byers and I mostly speak about efforts to aid him get back online, his belief in Terry Hobbs guilt and also some of the information he has that he is not allowed to publicly share. There is more to come. He knows he acted a fool in PL1 & 2, admits to being on drugs and alcohol and knows he's done himself no favors over the years with his behavior. He's a completely different person than he was in those years and believes staunchly in the innocence of the WM3 and know the police and investigators lied to him. I've told him that I at one time believed he was the killer and he understands that. There are many misconceptions about Byers. One is that he's made oodles of money off of exploiting his son's death. Not at all. He's dead broke and is looking for a way to gain internet access. He can't go to libraries and public places because he's hassled and set upon everywhere he goes in the small town where he lives. Myself and a few other supporters chipped in to help him buy a laptop last christmas and my first call to him was to ask if that would be OK. He doesn't like accepting charity and other supporters thought he'd be too proud to accept help. His health is not good and he is unable to work so he pretty much lives hand to mouth. For a while, a friend of his from Australia and former "non-supporter", joined him in "switching sides" and helped him set up a new message board, but that fellow has since switched sides again and claims now that he believes Mark was involved and apparently posts on Facebook a lot about it. It's loving bizarre. Another is that he's a crazy person all the time but I've never heard him act strange, loud or aggressive on the phone. He's not the killer either. The timeline and the forensics don't work. The Kershaw knife is irrelevant because of the lack of stab wounds. The kids weren't scraped to death after all. Mark is not the sharpest tool in the shed, calling himself "country stupid" and is quite self self-deprecatiing. He really regrets the way he behaved in the years after his son's death. PL2 was a pretty rotten hit piece and is by far the weakest of the 4 films, IMO.
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Aug 12, 2014 14:46
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DrVenkman posted:As for Echols. It's in his psych file that he stomped a dog to death. He also attacked a kid in school and almost took his eye out. I know that the anti-WM3 people have used his psych file as proof that he was a psychopath (It's unfortunate that it mentions the times Echols told people he was going to sacrifice his newborn) but I don't think that's really the case. What is true is that Echols and his Wife now make out the file was the product of one vindictive person, when in reality it was written by various Doctors, Nurses and social workers. I get why Echols would do it, but I don't know why they'd lie about something that can be easily checked. You're referring to "Exhibit 500". It's linked here: http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/img/exh500.html It was proffered by the defense team as part of Damien's defense during the sentencing phase of his trial in order to demonstrate Echols'mental illness and help him avoid the death penalty.
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Aug 12, 2014 14:50
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How are the three doing right now? Or how were they doing to the last of your knowledge? You mentioned that Echols was narcissistic and unpleasant at the time of the trial, and still is to a lesser extent - do you have a sense of how the whole ordeal changed them?
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Aug 12, 2014 19:07
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Jonny Angel posted:How are the three doing right now? Or how were they doing to the last of your knowledge? You mentioned that Echols was narcissistic and unpleasant at the time of the trial, and still is to a lesser extent - do you have a sense of how the whole ordeal changed them? Damien now lives in Salem(!) and recently said on Katie Couric that he "doubts this crime will ever be solved." He seems eager to put the matter behind him (at least far as exoneration and solving the crime goes) but is certainly not above cashing in on his notoriety and doing the talk show circuit and book tours. Not that I blame him at all, mind you. If I were him, I'd be making as much money as I could, living on one of (his friend) Johnny Depp's island in the Bahamas, loving my wife every chance I got and telling the world to kiss my rear end. For better or worse, Damien (and to some extent Mark Byers) are the "faces" of this case, I think mainly due to their larger than life personas and eccentric behavior. Damien's about as hosed as you'd expect from someone of above average intelligence, who started out from poo poo, then piled 18 years on death row on top of it. Jessie is the dumb kid he always was, only now a man, and wants nothing to do with any of this bullshit anymore now that he's out. last I heard, he lives with his Dad and refuses interviews or any type of publicity. Jason's a different cat. I just finished Mara Leveritt's book about him and he really is the "brains" of the outfit. As much as Damien gets cited for his intelligence, Jason strikes me as the smartest, most grounded and righteous of the three. He originally wanted to deny taking the Alford Plea and fight in court for his innocence but caved when he learned that it was an "all or nothing" deal. All three had to agree to it. He studies law, lectures and is active in pursuing the real killer and seeking his own exoneration. He's a tough kid (man) who doesn't let poo poo bring him down. Read Dark Spell, which just came out. He was lecturing recently in Florida and I tried to find out where/when and invite him to one of the boards I post on. I corresponded with his brother, Matt, some 5-7 years ago. Matt has since been jailed for robbing a drug store, I believe. http://www.topix.com/forum/city/rolla-mo/T0NTP7940H74KVR2A ... TL/DR: Damien: Doing OK. Seems to want just enough to do with the case in so far as it affords him to live free. Jessie: Wants to be left alone, is probably still wondering what the gently caress happened and is justifiably terrified of ever opening his mouth ever again, to anyone, for any reason whatsoever. Jason: Is actively pursuing the case, studying law, very happy to be free wants the killer(s) caught so the victims' families can have closure in addition to clearing his own name. Here's an interview with Damien and Jason shortly after they got out of jail. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esHTF5fOAwM There are related interviews/video too. This isn't the entire interview. Sorry. edit: this one's probably better: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYKRiGk0r0E ... Right now, all three are technically convicted child murderers and felons so they can't earn a living in any traditional sense. I hear them talk about how much the world has changed since they got locked up, which is easy to forget. It's been one of the hardest adjustments they've had to make. Damien talks about not being able to get used to walking more than 8-10 feet and then being brought to NYC by his wife. They speak about how hard it is to adjust to cell phones, ATM's, the advances made in video games and computers, the internet, HDTV and poo poo like that. The adjustment, the celebrity status and the loss of half their lives must be a monumental chore. BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Aug 12, 2014 |
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Aug 12, 2014 19:43
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Wow, thanks for making this thread. It's a fascinating but tragic case. This is kind of a different question, but for those of us with very strict budgets, what would you say the best book on the case is? I've had the samples of a few of them on my Kindle for a while but I've never been sure which one to go with.
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Aug 12, 2014 21:32
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What's the rundown on the evidence for Hobbs having done it? I saw in PL3 that there was a neighbour who spotted him with the kids past the time he stated he'd last seen them, but apart from that?
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Aug 12, 2014 23:47
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Taliaquin posted:Wow, thanks for making this thread. It's a fascinating but tragic case. Probably Devils Knot is the best place to start. I've read and enjoyed Mark Byers book Untying the Knot. Blood of Innocents is OK but a tad tabloid-ish and over sensational although, in certain ways, it's the best unbiased look at the case. Kojiro posted:What's the rundown on the evidence for Hobbs having done it? I saw in PL3 that there was a neighbour who spotted him with the kids past the time he stated he'd last seen them, but apart from that? Oh, baby. This is gonna take more time than I have right now. Quickly, and I'll get back to it later tonight, his DNA, along with the DNA of his best friend and alibi witness were found at the crime scene through the most recent DNA tests. Hobbs' alibi witness contradicts his story. Hobbs was never interviewed by police in 1993. There's more but I don;t have time at the moment.
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Aug 13, 2014 00:04
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BiggerBoat posted:You're referring to "Exhibit 500". It's linked here: That's the one. I'll dig out the interview but it's interesting that Damien now claims that he just handwaved the file off and how it wasn't even his defence team who came up with the idea. He also claims it was written by one person and ended up hurting him, when anyone who reads it or the case files can see that none of that is true. I've stated in the Documentaries thread that my interest in the case is more from a fact and fiction perspective, and how Echols has had a very carefully orchestrated PR campaign working in his favour. As well as how both sides are just as guilty for misreporting and embellishing when it suits them.
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Aug 13, 2014 12:50
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DrVenkman posted:As well as how both sides are just as guilty for misreporting and embellishing when it suits them. That also stems from not knowing who to believe about what so much of the time. Officer Regina Meeks said she went to the Bohangle's restaurant at 8:45 but the manager, Marty King, says it was 9:45 and remembers because it was near closing time (10pm). The Hollingsworths said they say Damien and his girlfriend by the service road but the cops say it was Damien and Jason. The M.E. couldn't settle on a consistent time of death, etc., etc. Plus the WM3 were getting all of their info about the case from the trials and through second hand sources. People with internet access knew about it than they did. I'll get to my "Why I Think Hobbs Did It" post when I have the appropriate time.
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Aug 13, 2014 18:20
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What do you think of the idea it was Edward Wayne Edwards?
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Aug 14, 2014 05:33
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Loomer posted:What do you think of the idea it was Edward Wayne Edwards? I'd never even heard it even suggested to be honest. At a glance, it seems like a long shot but I'll look into it. The Wikipedia article looks like it tries to link him to everything, from Zodiac to Job Benet Ramsey. BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at 12:56 on Aug 14, 2014 |
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Aug 14, 2014 12:44
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BiggerBoat posted:I'd never even heard it even suggested to be honest. At a glance, it seems like a long shot but I'll look into it. The Wikipedia article looks like it tries to link him to everything, from Zodiac to Job Benet Ramsey. Yeah, that's based on the work of one detective fellow. It seems pretty far-fetched, but an interesting one.
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Aug 14, 2014 13:10
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Loomer posted:Yeah, that's based on the work of one detective fellow. It seems pretty far-fetched, but an interesting one. No, he doesn't fit at all for me. http://criminalminds.wikia.com/wiki/Edward_Edwards He shot most of his victims at point blank range and targeted teenagers. I don't see anything on his rap sheet about killing little kids for cheap thrills.
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Aug 14, 2014 14:02
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Why do you think they killed those three boys? Was it satanist influence?
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Aug 16, 2014 20:00
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ashgromnies posted:Why do you think they killed those three boys? Was it satanist influence? I assume you're trolling. I think they WM3 are innocent. Satanism had nothing to do with it.
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Aug 17, 2014 12:49
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Anyone who stomped a dog to death probably did it. That would be all the evidence I needed, or at the very least I'd be okay with them taking the fall. Still, I want to hear your Hobbs theory 
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Aug 17, 2014 21:37
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Any idea if Damien Echols plans to do more X tattoos? I saw he had been doing them at a shop in Manhattan.
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Aug 18, 2014 00:54
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How and why did you get involved in this?
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Aug 18, 2014 02:05
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I guess I'm one of the few that think the WM3 did it. I think Misskelley failed the poly and some combination of that and guilt led to his initial confession. Maybe he didn't know that polygraphs are unreliable and felt he had been caught without a doubt. Shortly after he gives his first account of what happened. Several details in the confession are wrong. Possible explanations for this include him being drunk and focused on beating up one of the kids, having low IQ and thinking getting several details wrong would help him somehow (his own explanation), and trying to downplay his involvement in the murders. He sticks to this story for over 8 months. When confronted about getting details wrong the first time he says he did it purposefully in the first confession to "get'm off track". After 8 months his lawyers haven't been able to persuade him from confessing yet again. They plead with him but he refuses stating he wants "something done about it". Supporters will say Misskelley is mentally disabled and highly suggestible. While Misskelley is on the lower spectrum of normal IQ he scores above the mild retardation category. Nothing about him fits the diagnostic criteria for mental disability. It's worth adding his lawyer tested Misskelley's suggestibility in private by attempting to convince him that he robbed a convenience store. Misskelley refuted everything and the lawyer gave up after Misskelley started to get angry about the false accusations. It's a pretty extraordinary idea that he was brainwashed into believing something false for 8 months. Even more so when a death penalty for himself and two others is on the line. Other things that stand out to me include the many accounts of Damien killing animals, Damien describing himself as sociopathic and homicidal, and many people believing Damien was dangerous and capable of hurting someone. By no stretch was he just a kid who liked metal and black shirts. The failed alibis are also interesting. The first alibi came from Damien only 4 days after the murders, changed substantially several times, and never amounted to anything coherent. It also seems more likely that there were multiple murderers. All the beating, delacing, tieing up, and murdering seems like a lot to juggle without someone running off. A gun could have been used but even then things like tying knots requires two hands. While it may be possible it doesn't seem likely. It would be an incredibly risky undertaking for one murderer. The town had two groups of kids who spent a lot of time wandering around the area. They run into each other and things escalate from bullying, to beating, to murdering. Way more plausible than these ninja turtle sewer roleplay gone wrong fantasies.
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Aug 18, 2014 14:36
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Jeza posted:How and why did you get involved in this? I wondered this too, and I was especially curious as to how and why the OP began corresponding with people directly involved in the case. I'm not sure why obsessiveness to the point of actually becoming involved creeps me out, but it does, kinda in the same way that those women who write to incarcerated murderers then end up marrying them do. In fact, that happened to Echols..uh...er, "Damien", didn't it? The whole first name terms thing strikes me as odd, too, although that's a minor compliant.
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Aug 18, 2014 16:53
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OK, OK. Sorry. I just wanted to find a block of time to really post. ZeroDays posted:Anyone who stomped a dog to death probably did it. That would be all the evidence I needed, or at the very least I'd be okay with them taking the fall. Still, I want to hear your Hobbs theory This is heresay and also ridiculous. Seriously? Killing a dog would be "all the evidence you need"? You wouldn't need any physical evidence linking the accused to the crime? Hobbs: http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/local-news/new-sworn-statements-implicate-hobbs-west-memphis I'm not going to link everything I post unless it's requested, but here's a great place to start regarding the issues with Hobbs: http://www.statementanalysis.com/WM3/terry-hobbs-deposition/ Here's the entire interview: http://callahan.8k.com/hobbs_pasdar/t_hobbs_depo1.html It's also on YouTube but fragmented a bit: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Terry+hobbs+deposition HEre's part 5. The rest of the parts should be right around there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaCcoihhmX0 Here's a synopsis of some the things brought to life by WOM: http://www.indyweek.com/indyweek/the-west-memphis-three-are-free-what-about-the-real-killer/Content?oid=3395676 Terry Wayne Hobbs: 1. He places himself at the discovery site, in his own words, sometime between 5:30 and 7:00 pm yet heard nothing or saw anything. 2. He had Stevie Branch's pocket knife in his possession. Pam Hobbs, his mother, says Stevie carried that knife with him everywhere. 3. His DNA was found in a shoelace used to bind one of the victims. His friend David Jacoby's DNA was discovered on a tree root near the discovery site. Hobbs says he was with Jacoby "all night" and they went searching together. Jacoby denies this. 4. He didn't notify his wife until 9:30 that night that Stevie was missing when he went to pick her up from work even though he says he was searching for Stevie long before it would have been reasonable him to be considered "missing". 5. He says he never saw Stevie (or any of the boys) that day. Witnesses and neighbors contradict this and say they saw him yelling for the boys around 5:00 - 5:30. 6. He claims to have spotted Mark and Melissa Byers on the service road from inside the woods. There was no line of sight to that service road and at the time, Hobbs didn't even know who Mark Byers was. 7. He has a history of child and spousal abuse, including allegations of sexual abuse by none other than his own daughter, Amanda. 8. In PL1, during the infamous "pumpkin shooting" scene, Hobbs was invited along but claims that his gun (a 9mm) was "stolen". A 9mm handgun was recovered from the bayou near the discovery site years later. Gunshots were heard that night by several people. 9. Hobbs claims to have seen a "wet, black bum" emerging from the woods the morning the bodies were found. He claims he mentioned to this to his wife but he did not. The evening of the murders, about a mile away from the crime scene, Marty King, manager of Bojangles chicken called the police to report a "wet, bloody, muddy black male" entering the ladies restroom. IN my opinion, Hobbs, reacting to the heat coming down on him, interjects this into his interview to preserve plausible deniability. 10. Hobbs claimed he wandered near the crime scene and "smelled blood" at one point. There was no blood at the crime scene. 11. Hobbs had previously worked as a butcher and used to tie animals up to ease transport as they were led to slaughter. The bindings on the three victims suggest they were tied for ease of transport and not restraint. 12. Of all the DNA tested, the only positive links to anyone connected with the boys were from Terry Wayne Hobbs and his friend, David Jacoby. Jacoby is Hobbs' alibi witness for the entire night but contradicts Hobbs' timeline and statements. 13. Hobbs has a history of violence. In addition to beating Stevie and his wife, Pam, he broke into Mildred French's apartment years earlier while she was showering and grabbed her breasts. This was retaliation for French having called the police on Hobbs after hearing domestic abuse next door. 14. There are industrial type wound patterns on one of the boys (I forget which one) that could not have been cause by anything in the creek. These wound patterns are consistent with rebar, often found in several manholes close to the area. Hobbs said at one point that he'd heard the boys might be in a "covered hole or something". There are "road rash" type injuries on the bodies that are consistent with the roughly troweled coverings over these manholes. 15. Shortly after #14 was photographed and made public, someone went out and resurfaced the concrete coverings of one of these manholes. 16. Less than a month after the murders, Terry Hobbs abruptly left town and "lawyered up". Mark Byers cooperated with investigators throughout the investigation and was interviewed extensively. Todd Moore, father of Micheal, was cleared due to his solid alibi. He was a truck driver and out of the State at the time. Hobbs was never interviewed by Police. "Leaving town" is a common tactic that guilty who are feeling the heat commonly do. 17. Hobbs claims to have gone to school and the police station. He did not. 18. Around 8:00 - 8:15, Hobbs saw Michael's mother Dana and John Mark Byers speaking with the police in Byers' driveway. He remained in his car and did not report Stevie missing to the officer at this time. 19. He claims to have called police from his home. Hobbs did not have a telephone at his house. 20. Hobbs says that there were "about 50 people or so on ATV's" around 6:00 or so. At that point, there was hardly even a search taking place. 21. Terry claims to have searched the woods with officer Regina Meeks sometime around 9 or 10pm. Meeks says she never searched anywhere with Hobbs. 22. Hobbs told a girlfriend of his that he thought the boys were "buried underwater". http://westmemphisthreediscussion.yuku.com/topic/6696/Sharon-Nelson 23. Pam Hobbs family members said that Terry was doing laundry that night. Why would you do laundry with a missing 8 year old kid? 24. John Douglas, one of the world's leading criminal profilers, has said he would put Hobbs on the "front burner" had he been an investigator on this case. His profile matches Hobbs. 25. Here's your smoking gun. Remember the bite mark from PL2 and all the controversy surrounding Byers and his teeth? A second look at that bite mark, discovered and peer reviewed by his colleagues shows a forensic match between that wound and partial denture Hobbs used to wear that was discovered in a lock box along with a 1983 penny. The year Stevie Branch was born. That's all that was in that box. http://maraleveritt.com/some-humans-bite-revisiting-the-evidence/ 26. Terry Hobbs attempted to kill his wife's brother with a 9mm handgun after the dude came over to kick Terry's rear end for beating the poo poo out of Pam Hobbs. ... In my opinion, Terry Hobbs murdered those three boys. Probably not intentionally, but once it got out of hand it was hard to turn back. He was high, mad, hated Stevie and pissed off that Stevie wasn't home. He saw them, hollered after them and, when they didn't come, got angrier and followed them to where he knew they hung out. He likely clocked one of them a bit too solidly and, once realizing his mistake, clocked the other ones and stashed them in the manhole they were playing near. This is where the rebar pattern happened. Later on, he went back, tied the bodies with the only things he could find ( the boys shoelaces) and cut those shoelaces with the only thing he could find (Stevie's pocket knife). He made two trips to dispose of the bodies (at some point) under the auspice of "searching" and carried them a short distance to the creek. Two of the knots were tied exactly the same way and one was not. Believers in the guilt of the WM3 claim this supports three killer. TO me, it means "two trips". He "buried them underwater", convinced that if he were happened upon, he could simply claim...well..."discovery!". ... At some point, he grabbed his gun before he made his way back to the woods. The guy eventually discovered at Bojangles likely happened upon him dumping or transporting the bodies and tried to run. This is when the gunshots were heard. Terry winged/clipped the guy and promptly tossed his 9mm in the bayou which was discovered years later. Bojangles hauled rear end, scared, wounded and bleeding, until he got to the chicken shack and, as a black man/transient in Arkansas is likely to think, realized the cops would try to pin the murders on him so he never reported it or went to the hospital. Years later, Terry Hobbs, feeling the heat, would proffer the idea of seeing a wet, black, muddy bum emerging from the woods. Hobbs has no alibi, was never interviewed, is the only physical link to the crime and contradicts himself at every turn. I was on the fence myself until I saw the bite mark overlay. Snowy posted:Any idea if Damien Echols plans to do more X tattoos? I saw he had been doing them at a shop in Manhattan. No idea what he does or is doing. Last I heard, he lives in Salem and "doubts the case will ever be solved." Jeza posted:How and why did you get involved in this? I saw PL1 on HBO and initially believed they were guilty. I watched PL2, read Devils Knot and then for a while was convinced that John Mark Byers had killed them. I studied "false confessions" which was a significant hurdle for me and began to understand that people CAN and DO confess to things they haven't done. I looked into the Ryan Ferguson case. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryan_Ferguson_%28wrongful_conviction%29 After that, around 2000 or so, I got online and found message boards and internet sites that described a lot of things I'd never heard or knew about. From there, I found http://callahan.8k.com/ and started to read for myself the things the movies left out. Next thing I knew, I was posting with Todd and Dana Moore, Mark Byers, some of the people from the films and was "on the fence" about the case - even though I always had reasonable doubt. I was reading and posting on boards that thought they were innocent and those that alos thought they were guilty. It got addicting, probably most due to the fact that I grew up in Delaware, where "weirdos" were frowned upon and poo poo like that. I began to realize that if the cops ever went through my art, book collection, movies and what have you that if that was enough evidence to lock these kids up, it could have just as easily been me and any number of my friends. I began to dig and look for actual, physical evidence that matched the crime and couldn't find any. It's sort of a small group of people really and I gradually got to know several of the people connected to the case. When Mark Byers switched sides and started posting publicly about it, I jumped at the chance to correspond with him since I found him fascinating. At that point, I was convinced that the WM3 were innocent, having read as much as I could about the case and actually asking the people effected by it with it what they thought. I messaged with Pam Hobbs, Dana and Todd Moore, Mark Byers and also some of the people involved with the documentaries and the websites. Once I was convinced of the innocence of the WM3, I decided to put my money where my mouth was and began donating money. Not much. Maybe $50 a clip or so when I could. Cats LOVE Cigars! posted:I guess I'm one of the few that think the WM3 did it. They absolutely did not. I'd bet my life on it. What physical evidence leads you to believe this? Why do you think that? Teenage thrill kills are decidedly loving rare. Really rare. Almost always in a situation like this, it's a close family member or someone that knew them. Does all that stuff you posted mean that had you been on the jury you would have voted to convict? You honestly think that THREE drunken, stoned, satan-worshipping teenagers committed a thrill kill in cold blood, cleaned up the crime scene so expertly that not one trace of evidence points back to them? One of whom was literally a retard? Some of you guys scare me. Seriously.
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Aug 18, 2014 17:55
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Hey team, no expert on the details, but I am from West Memphis, so throw me some questions about local flavor... hint: not much has changed. After Columbine most of my friends in junior high got questioned by the police for no other reason than they were weird.
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Aug 19, 2014 02:09
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the_chavi posted:Hey team, no expert on the details, but I am from West Memphis, so throw me some questions about local flavor... hint: not much has changed. After Columbine most of my friends in junior high got questioned by the police for no other reason than they were weird. How close are you in age to the three convicted? Did you know anyone who knew any of them?
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Aug 19, 2014 02:48
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When it happened, I was a year or two younger than the kids who were killed. Most of my teachers in the West Memphis schools remembered the three accused of the killings. They don't like to talk much about it - people were either traumatized by the media scrutiny and the insanity or felt that the city had been unfairly treated.
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Aug 19, 2014 12:27
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While some of the points about Hobbs are interesting, it still take a few leaps to the conclusion. For instance, I'm sure it's possible, but I doubt anyone who was shot at by a guy who was busy carrying the bodies of three dead kids would NOT go to the police or tell anyone. Especially after all the media attention and circus that has been going on for what, 20 years now? I do find the information about a "wet, bloody, muddy black male" being reported at a near by restaurant the night of the murder interesting information that I never heard of before. Do you know anything more about this? Other things, like his dentures perhaps matching the bite marks would make for good evidence. But adding that they were in a lock-box with a penny of the same year as Stevie's birthday really doesn't mean anything without more context. If the box was on an alter with a big picture of Stevia above it, then I would be lead to believe it was significant detail. But as I read it, it almost sounds like conspiracy-level grasping. To me, Hobbs is easily one of the top 3 suspects, and very well may have did it. I think that numbered list could be boiled down to maybe 6 or 7 entries, and even then it leaves some wide gaps in what exactly played out. Maybe... It was a black magic ritual that actually worked  It did bring them fame..(this is a joke) Dr.Caligari fucked around with this message at 14:40 on Aug 19, 2014 |
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Aug 19, 2014 14:37
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Dr.Caligari posted:While some of the points about Hobbs are interesting, it still take a few leaps to the conclusion. For instance, I'm sure it's possible, but I doubt anyone who was shot at by a guy who was busy carrying the bodies of three dead kids would NOT go to the police or tell anyone. Especially after all the media attention and circus that has been going on for what, 20 years now? It was in PL1. quote:"Mr. Bojangles" quote:
Dr.Caligari posted:Other things, like his dentures perhaps matching the bite marks would make for good evidence. But adding that they were in a lock-box with a penny of the same year as Stevie's birthday really doesn't mean anything without more context. If the box was on an alter with a big picture of Stevia above it, then I would be lead to believe it was significant detail. But as I read it, it almost sounds like conspiracy-level grasping. Who are your other suspects? What are the 6 or 7 points you find relevant? I just did an info dump to get it all out there, keep the thread moving and show how it all fits together. In my opinion (and not just mine), the denture is a match for the wound. The gentlemen who did the work is cited in Mara Leveritt's book Dark Spell and has had his work peer reviewed. He also analyzed the rebar pattern wound. Here's something else. Hobbs says he started a journal the day after the murders yet throughout his deposition and interviews, his memory is conveniently hazy as to key points and details. He won't let anyone read the journals. Why not just consult them if his memory is fuzzy? He wrote it down. Locking up the dentures is telling to me. Why would he keep them? What about the pocket knife? It's my belief that Bojangles likely had warrants, was scared he'd be implicated in the murders or was a transient in possession of drugs or something like that. Maybe in violation of parole. This is Deep poo poo, Arkansas we're talking about here; heavily southern. A place that actually believed in Satanic sacrifices and the dark influences of heavy metal and horror novels/films. It's not the first place you think of when it comes to a black man getting a fair shake. Transients and winos were known to frequent the area and I think he happened upon something he shouldn't have seen. There was (is) a $10,000 reward so if he was homeless, you're right. It'd make sense he'd try to collect the reward but I doubt he trusted the WMPD. I still think it's a hell of a coincidence that someone shows up less than a mile from a triple homicide, right within the timeline of the crime, wet up to the knees and covered in blood and mud. I believe he's connected to the case somehow. Hobbs has no alibi for this time either by the way. And he never reported his gun stolen or said who stole it.
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Aug 19, 2014 16:44
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the_chavi posted:When it happened, I was a year or two younger than the kids who were killed. Most of my teachers in the West Memphis schools remembered the three accused of the killings. They don't like to talk much about it - people were either traumatized by the media scrutiny and the insanity or felt that the city had been unfairly treated. So you were 6 or so and, what, 10-12 when Columbine happened? What was the general consensus regarding the guilt or innocence of the WM3 back then? Did your parents creep you out and act paranoid about child-killing Satan worshipers and forbid you to outside? Were you made to go to church? Did other kids your age know about and have questions or opinions about the murders? Do you still live there? What's the overall consensus now about the WM3, judge Burnett, Scott Ellington and the general opinion about the Alford Plea that got them released?
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Aug 19, 2014 16:53
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I live in Arkansas, and one of my psych professors in college was in the same class as Damien Echols in Jr. High. He said it was his opinion that they were weird kids and probably did SOMETHING, if not murder the boys. I also used to work at the Arkansas Times, which has covered this story extensively. I know Mara Leveritt, the author of Devil's Knot. Of course, there the general feeling is that the WM3 were done a tremendous injustice and they are innocent. The day that the Alford Plea came down, it was a really exciting day. Mara is still a writer for the Times so people were calling for her and it was just generally awesome. Mostly, people in Arkansas don't know any more or think about it any more than the rest of people. There are some higher profile people who have helped with funding for the three, like Capi Peck, who owns a couple of local restaurants and is a huge supporter. My best friend used to work at her restaurant (Trios) and I was at the bar visiting him one day and he introduced me to Damien's wife, Lorri. She was super sweet. This was when Damien was still in prison, and she gave me a bumper sticker for my car.
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Aug 19, 2014 20:21
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Dr.Caligari posted:
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Aug 20, 2014 00:52
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BiggerBoat posted:So you were 6 or so and, what, 10-12 when Columbine happened? appleskates posted:Mostly, people in Arkansas don't know any more or think about it any more than the rest of people ^^^ Truth. Most of the people at home are so tired of it and the never-ending press. I mean, WM was never a pleasant place to live, but being portrayed as ignorant yokels for 2+ decades gets old fast. Doing the math, I guess I was the same age as the victims (though at the time I was in a neighboring school district, which is why I don't know them), so 8 when it happened and 15 for Columbine. No one really talked to the kids in other districts about the WM3 when it happened, but we all knew about it by the time Columbine rolled around. My family wasn't religious (more on that later) so no pressure to go to church. In 1999 at my junior high there were two white social groups - one of "preppy" "popular" kids, and the ones who didn't fit that mold, which is where I fit in. (Small surprise I ended up on SA!) Blacks were in different social groups, and there was generally speaking no mixture outside of classes. After Columbine, the cops came and interviewed all the white social rejects, in some cases taking my friends in, directly from our junior high with the administration's concurrence, for questioning at the police station. No charges, no lawyers, just questioning the oddballs who wore black and listened to metal/alternative. I can't say whether that happened elsewhere in the state, or even in the country, after Columbine, but it was pretty clear that weird kids were not trusted. Luckily my mom got wind of what was happening and made it known to school administrators that we were big fans of the ACLU and would love to let them provide a lawyer should the WM police want to talk to me. Funny, didn't happen to me. I don't live there anymore (moved away as fast as I could), and the one thing I remember most about being an oddball in that town is how religious everyone is. When I came out of the atheist closet when I was 14, word spread around my school so fast that by the end of the day a lot of students wouldn't talk to me and two teachers had pulled me aside to pray over me. This would have been 1998 or so. It's better now, but it's still not great. When the convictions got the weird whatever it was a few years back and the accused were released, there was a definite generational split in how the town reacted (based on what I saw on Facebook and in our lovely local paper). People who are generally now 35 or younger were more vocal about it and generally seemed to think that it was closure on a miscarriage of justice. People older than that kept a lot more tight-lipped about the decision, and I got the sense that they didn't necessarily think it was the right decision. Couldn't speak to how or why that is the case; just basing this on impressions and observing some contentious FB debates. the_chavi fucked around with this message at 01:14 on Aug 20, 2014 |
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Aug 20, 2014 01:10
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I meant no offense friend. I guess I was just saying while that is a strong case, and he should have been considered a main suspect, but from the (admittedly little) amount of info I know, it still seems like a little way to a closed case. Thank you for posting those snippets about the Bojangles guy. It's been a long time since I have seen PL1 and I forgot all about him. Since that was odd enough that the manager felt he should report it, I would there is more than a strong possibility it is related. It's a real shame the police 'lost' the scraping. I'm sorry if I missed it, but what became of Hobbs? I assume he is still alive? One thing that continues to amaze me is the police's ineptitude. Even in 90s po-dunk, Alabama I would think it would be common sense to interview every available immediate family of murder victims. Thanks for making this thread btw
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Aug 20, 2014 02:35
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Dr.Caligari posted:I meant no offense friend. I guess I was just saying while that is a strong case, and he should have been considered a main suspect, but from the (admittedly little) amount of info I know, it still seems like a little way to a closed case. I didn't mean to come off harsh. Sorry. Hobbs is still alive and, depending on who you listen to, under investigation of some sort (but not by the WMPD). He posts on Facebook. The fact that he wasn't interviewed in 1993, especially after abruptly leaving town, is utterly mind-boggling. That's police work 101. The holes in his story, his alibi and his timeline would have been a lot easier to get through had the police simply done their jobs back then.
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Aug 20, 2014 16:28
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For some reason, I thought Terry Hobbs was dead. That's crazy. Hope he confesses, even if only on his deathbed, so there can be some real closure.
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Aug 20, 2014 16:42
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