is islam really a threat to capitalism and western values?

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > is islam really a threat to capitalism and western values?

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deadgoon: Dec 4, 2014; by FactsAreUseless

will convert if true

# ? Feb 10, 2017 01:59

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# ? Jun 2, 2024 04:04

Anime Schoolgirl: Nov 28, 2002

1) no, the ottoman empire was built upon oligarchs taking advantage of people mentally enslaved through poor education, what the "religious right" are trying to do now, in fact
2) sharia law and american "christian" values are actually very fuckin identical except for the pigs and sisterfucking parts

they are the exact opposite of a threat. they are simply a different branding.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 02:05

the black husserl: Feb 25, 2005

there are at least 30 flavors of islam so this is a tough question to answer

for example, take the alawite muslims. those dudes are hella into capitalism.

on the other hand, spicy nacho muslims are known socialists

# ? Feb 10, 2017 02:07

Trumps Baby Hands: Mar 27, 2016; Silent white light filled the world. And the righteous and unrighteous alike were consumed in that holy fire.

it's funny to go back and read The End of History?

quote:

IF WE ADMIT for the moment that the fascist and communist challenges to liberalism are dead, are there any other ideological competitors left? Or put another way, are there contradictions in liberal society beyond that of class that are not resolvable? Two possibilities suggest themselves, those of religion and nationalism.

The rise of religious fundamentalism in recent years within the Christian, Jewish, and Muslim traditions has been widely noted. One is inclined to say that the revival of religion in some way attests to a broad unhappiness with the impersonality and spiritual vacuity of liberal consumerist societies. Yet while the emptiness at the core of liberalism is most certainly a defect in the ideology - indeed, a flaw that one does not need the perspective of religion to recognize[15] - it is not at all clear that it is remediable through politics. Modern liberalism itself was historically a consequence of the weakness of religiously-based societies which, failing to agree on the nature of the good life, could not provide even the minimal preconditions of peace and stability. In the contemporary world only Islam has offered a theocratic state as a political alternative to both liberalism and communism. But the doctrine has little appeal for non-Muslims, and it is hard to believe that the movement will take on any universal significance. Other less organized religious impulses have been successfully satisfied within the sphere of personal life that is permitted in liberal societies.

Fukuyama basically dismissed the idea of Islam as a worthy successor to fill communism's role in the dialectic. He had no clue that the son of H.W. would take his ideas seriously and use them to break the middle-east for the next century.

Islam is a powerful organizing force. When Iraq became a failed state and all the institutions of government collapsed, the mosques were able to fill the vacuum.

If the global economy were to completely fail and the world order slipped into unorganized chaos, it's not unthinkable that an enterprising Imam might use the opportunity to unite the Muslim world and build a new Caliphate. If the U.S. were to enter a new Dark Age you'd probably also end up with a handful of theocracies, most notably Salt Lake. They've been preparing for that possibility since the 1800's, and if the current world goes to poo poo then the LDS church will be a huge stabilizing entity.

What I'm saying is that 500 years from now The Great Islamic Caliphate might be fighting The Union of Latter Day Saints for control of the Martian colonies or whatever. So yeah, definitely convert.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 02:17

deadgoon: Dec 4, 2014; by FactsAreUseless

the black husserl posted:

on the other hand, spicy nacho muslims are known socialists

doritos� spicy nacho cheese flavored tortilla chips made without pork (porcine) enzymes???

in MY america?????

# ? Feb 10, 2017 02:25

Agean90: Jun 28, 2008

the only difference betwee ISIS and the christian right is opportunity

# ? Feb 10, 2017 02:53

LinYutang: Oct 12, 2016; NEOLIBERAL SHITPOSTER

VOTE BLUE NO MATTER WHO!!!

for some reason muslims with money act exactly the same as everyone else :iiam:

# ? Feb 10, 2017 02:57

VectorSigma: Jan 20, 2004; Transform
and
Freak Out

thermodynamics and therefore objective reality is a threat to capitalism so

# ? Feb 10, 2017 03:00

unlimited shrimp: Aug 30, 2008

Anime Schoolgirl posted:

2) sharia law and american "christian" values are actually very fuckin identical except for the pigs and sisterfucking parts

you are like a child

# ? Feb 10, 2017 03:25

rudatron: May 31, 2011; by Fluffdaddy

anime schoolgirl is correct there

# ? Feb 10, 2017 04:36

Bear Retrieval Unit: Nov 5, 2009; Mudslide Experiment

Nah.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 04:37

Mia Wasikowska: Oct 7, 2006

don't pretend like you know how far president king huckabee would go in his depravity if he carved out an enclave somewhere

# ? Feb 10, 2017 04:42

Trast: Oct 20, 2010; Three games, thousands of playthroughs. 90% of the players don't know I exist. Still a redhead saving the galaxy with a [Right Hook].

Nah, however capitalism is probably a real threat to the planet.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 04:46

Bip Roberts: Mar 29, 2005

it is the light.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 04:58

rudatron: May 31, 2011; by Fluffdaddy

Islamism isn't a threat or even alternative to modern capitalism, because it doesn't present a coherent intellectual analysis of modern late-stage capitalism, from which to formulate an alternative.

For example, Islamism actually has it's own banking system, but its structure and it's dislike of interest means that 'islamic banking' is much less dynamic than modern capitalistc banking, which means that it's actually less efficient. In purely economic competition, it will absolutely get crushed. It also doesn't solve the fundamental contradictions of capitalism, and will therefore suffer the same crises.

It's answer to the issues of alienation and the plight of the precariat is to essentially encourage philanthropy, but that's a bullshit answer that won't work. If it did, modern welfare states supported by taxation wouldn't have been necessary. In the country currently running under islamism, it also clearly, objectively, doesn't work.

Geopolitically, it will never achieve hegemony, because it lacks that crucial quality that all hegemonic empires have had, out of necessity - pluralism. If the entire economy and society is presented as being based on the principles of one religion, that is going to, by necessity, marginalize ever other single religious group. Expecting such a situation to not result in prejudice is living in a fantasy land, the de jure supremacy of any one tribalistic group will enculture in that tribe the exact kind of entitlement referred to in the US as 'white privilege', only worse, because it's legally legitimatized. It's a recipe for brutal oppression, and that's 100% exactly what will happen.

Culturally, it is simply less productive of cultural artifacts, because it stifles creative development. Creativity means taking risks, it means pushing boundaries. The 'social policing' of islamism puts a damper on the total creative output of society, meaning that less overall 'culture' will be produced. And if less is being produced, there's less stuff that can possibly spread to other cultures, and there is by necessity less interesting or really engaging stuff. Ergo, you'll never get the 'blue jeans and pop music' phenomenon that you see with modern liberal capitalism, which is able to spread it's culture (and therefore values) well outside its own territories.

In conclusion, Islamism is "not 'new', and not 'order'". It's the projection of old, primitive forms of statehood from the pre-modern era into the present, that is destined to fail, because it doesn't acknowledge the reason those kinds of states fell apart in the first place. They're inefficiently structured, have only a weak inconsistent and mostly useless ideological critical theory behind them, and no appeal to people not already infatuated with them.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 05:00

deadgoon: Dec 4, 2014; by FactsAreUseless

rudatron posted:

they're inefficiently structured, have only a weak inconsistent and mostly useless ideological critical theory behind them, and no appeal to people not already infatuated with them

did u hack my webcam???????

# ? Feb 10, 2017 05:06

the bitcoin of weed: Nov 1, 2014

Trumps Baby Hands posted:

What I'm saying is that 500 years from now The Great Islamic Caliphate might be fighting The Union of Latter Day Saints for control of the Martian colonies or whatever. So yeah, definitely convert.

i played this hoi4 mod and it sucked

# ? Feb 10, 2017 05:08

Thug Lessons: Dec 14, 2006; I lust in my heart for as many dead refugees as possible.

No.

quote:

All the currents that claim adherence to political Islam proclaim the �specificity of Islam.� According to them, Islam knows nothing of the separation between politics and religion, something supposedly distinctive of Christianity. It would accomplish nothing to remind them, as I have done, that their remarks reproduce, almost word for word, what European reactionaries at the beginning of the nineteenth century (such as Bonald and de Maistre) said to condemn the rupture that the Enlightenment and the French Revolution had produced in the history of the Christian West!

On the basis of this position, every current of political Islam chooses to conduct its struggle on the terrain of culture�but �culture� reduced in actual fact to the conventional affirmation of belonging to a particular religion. In reality, the militants of political Islam are not truly interested in discussing the dogmas that form religion. The ritual assertion of membership in the community is their exclusive preoccupation. Such a vision of the reality of the modern world is not only distressing because of the immense emptiness of thought that it conceals, but it also justifies imperialism�s strategy of substituting a so-called conflict of cultures for the one between imperialist centers and dominated peripheries. The exclusive emphasis on culture allows political Islam to eliminate from every sphere of life the real social confrontations between the popular classes and the globalized capitalist system that oppresses and exploits them. The militants of political Islam have no real presence in the areas where actual social conflicts take place and their leaders repeat incessantly that such conflicts are unimportant. Islamists are only present in these areas to open schools and health clinics. But these are nothing but works of charity and means for indoctrination. They are not means of support for the struggles of the popular classes against the system responsible for their poverty.

http://monthlyreview.org/2007/12/01/political-islam-in-the-service-of-imperialism/

# ? Feb 10, 2017 05:14

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

islam bans usury, so yes

# ? Feb 10, 2017 05:15

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

1. Eastern Muslims are a threat , western Muslims aka Calvinists are not.
2. Yes. We must rid ourselves of western Islam aka Calvinism. So the holy church may be returned.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 07:15

Anime Schoolgirl: Nov 28, 2002

Crowsbeak posted:

Yes. We must rid ourselves of western Islam aka Calvinism.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 07:16

gobbagool: Feb 5, 2016; by R. Guyovich; Doctor Rope

Anime Schoolgirl posted:

1) no, the ottoman empire was built upon oligarchs taking advantage of people mentally enslaved through poor education, what the "religious right" are trying to do now, in fact
2) sharia law and american "christian" values are actually very fuckin identical except for the pigs and sisterfucking parts

they are the exact opposite of a threat. they are simply a different branding.

I keep forgetting you're a gimmick retard account, but I'll bite

First off, super edgy "Christianity and Islam are the same thing" one of those faiths would behead you for even saying that

Second off, definitely looking forward to Western Feminism co-existing with conservative islam. Nothing to see here folks, move right along

# ? Feb 10, 2017 14:46

spacetoaster: Feb 10, 2014

Anime Schoolgirl posted:

sharia law and american "christian" values are actually very fuckin identical except for the pigs and sisterfucking parts

By christian values do you mean things that are done by some christians but not explicitly spelled out in the holy book?

Because islam spells out exacting requirements (followed up by examples) for the most horrible poo poo possible.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 14:51

Mormon Star Wars: Aug 13, 2005; It's a minotaur race...

Sharia owns and the disagreement of scholars is a mercy to the ummah. The built-in intrareligious pluralism is a feature, not a bug.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 17:17

byob historian: Nov 5, 2008; I'm an animal abusing piece of shit! I deliberately poisoned my dog to death and think it's funny! I'm an irredeemable sack of human shit!

rudatron posted:

Islamism isn't a threat or even alternative to modern capitalism, because it doesn't present a coherent intellectual analysis of modern late-stage capitalism, from which to formulate an alternative.

For example, Islamism actually has it's own banking system, but its structure and it's dislike of interest means that 'islamic banking' is much less dynamic than modern capitalistc banking, which means that it's actually less efficient. In purely economic competition, it will absolutely get crushed. It also doesn't solve the fundamental contradictions of capitalism, and will therefore suffer the same crises.

It's answer to the issues of alienation and the plight of the precariat is to essentially encourage philanthropy, but that's a bullshit answer that won't work. If it did, modern welfare states supported by taxation wouldn't have been necessary. In the country currently running under islamism, it also clearly, objectively, doesn't work.

Geopolitically, it will never achieve hegemony, because it lacks that crucial quality that all hegemonic empires have had, out of necessity - pluralism. If the entire economy and society is presented as being based on the principles of one religion, that is going to, by necessity, marginalize ever other single religious group. Expecting such a situation to not result in prejudice is living in a fantasy land, the de jure supremacy of any one tribalistic group will enculture in that tribe the exact kind of entitlement referred to in the US as 'white privilege', only worse, because it's legally legitimatized. It's a recipe for brutal oppression, and that's 100% exactly what will happen.

Culturally, it is simply less productive of cultural artifacts, because it stifles creative development. Creativity means taking risks, it means pushing boundaries. The 'social policing' of islamism puts a damper on the total creative output of society, meaning that less overall 'culture' will be produced. And if less is being produced, there's less stuff that can possibly spread to other cultures, and there is by necessity less interesting or really engaging stuff. Ergo, you'll never get the 'blue jeans and pop music' phenomenon that you see with modern liberal capitalism, which is able to spread it's culture (and therefore values) well outside its own territories.

In conclusion, Islamism is "not 'new', and not 'order'". It's the projection of old, primitive forms of statehood from the pre-modern era into the present, that is destined to fail, because it doesn't acknowledge the reason those kinds of states fell apart in the first place. They're inefficiently structured, have only a weak inconsistent and mostly useless ideological critical theory behind them, and no appeal to people not already infatuated with them.

and how, rude! :c00lbert:

# ? Feb 10, 2017 17:41

rudatron: May 31, 2011; by Fluffdaddy

The saddest thing about islamism isn't just that it exists, or that it was brought into existence by imperialists soley for the purpose of fighting communism (which it did with fervor, and continues to be ideologically opposed to today), no, the saddest part is that a lot of progressives refuse to acknowledge it's reactionary character, just because it opposes modern liberal capitalism. It's basically equivalent to saying, in the inter-war period, 'yeah maybe this hitler is bad guy but at least he's not a liberal!'.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 17:43

mastershakeman: Oct 28, 2008; by vyelkin

deadgoon posted:

will convert if true

yes. its extremely true

might i suggest wahhabism

# ? Feb 10, 2017 17:45

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

gobbagool posted:

I keep forgetting you're a gimmick retard account, but I'll bite

First off, super edgy "Christianity and Islam are the same thing" one of those faiths would behead you for even saying that

Second off, definitely looking forward to Western Feminism co-existing with conservative islam. Nothing to see here folks, move right along

Well Sunni Islam and Calvinism are the same thing. They both are heresies that take away the reason of salvation.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 17:47

rudatron: May 31, 2011; by Fluffdaddy

what? that's not true, sunni islam is just a branch of islam the religion, it's not necessarily calvinistic or whatever, that's like calling all protestants evangelicals.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 17:48

Mormon Star Wars: Aug 13, 2005; It's a minotaur race...

Pretty much all forms of Islam reject the ideas of total depravity and unconditional election.

We don't roll with TULIP.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 18:03

gobbagool: Feb 5, 2016; by R. Guyovich; Doctor Rope

Mormon Star Wars posted:

Pretty much all forms of Islam reject the ideas of total depravity and unconditional election.

We don't roll with TULIP.

I'd suggest that honor killing and being terrified of a woman's bare ankle pretty much defines total depravity

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Feb 10, 2017 18:08

Al!: Apr 2, 2010

LinYutang posted:

for some reason muslims with money act exactly the same as everyone else

all aboard the bird turd express

# ? Feb 10, 2017 18:09

spacetoaster: Feb 10, 2014

Now that I think about it, I'm a man so Islam seems pretty cool. Where can we get some?

# ? Feb 10, 2017 18:16

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

rudatron posted:

what? that's not true, sunni islam is just a branch of islam the religion, it's not necessarily calvinistic or whatever, that's like calling all protestants evangelicals.

Pre destination is pre destination. Both lead to the same end.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 18:29

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!!: May 31, 2006

gobbagool posted:

I'd suggest that honor killing and being terrified of a woman's bare ankle pretty much defines total depravity

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

francoistspain.jpg
1930sireland.gif

# ? Feb 10, 2017 18:42

Plutonis: Mar 25, 2011

Sunni drools, Shia and Sufism rule

# ? Feb 10, 2017 18:42

Al!: Apr 2, 2010

Plutonis posted:

Sunni drools, Shia and Sufism rule

as usual it all comes down 2 mohamma baby mamma drama

# ? Feb 10, 2017 18:44

Luvcow: Jul 1, 2007; One day nearer spring

it would be nice if western countries hadn't supported ruthless dictators and paid shills for western capitalism in predominantly muslim countries that murdered and imprisoned the majority of progressive muslims and created a climate of fear for the the remaining progressives in those areas.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 18:54

Plutonis: Mar 25, 2011

# ? Feb 10, 2017 20:36

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# ? Jun 2, 2024 04:04

Chwoka: Jan 27, 2008; I'm Abed, and I never watch TV.

yes, but the threat is not that islam is going to "win," and it's not about any specific qualities of islam, it's that it is going to make western racists flip the gently caress out and destroy their whole society because we're idiots

# ? Feb 10, 2017 20:52

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > is islam really a threat to capitalism and western values?

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