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Med School posted:When she was at his place I really thought something was gonna happen. They just used sexual tension to play with my emotions like a rag doll. I'm pretty sure the implication that something did happen was there. When Monneypenny leaves, Bond is suddenly wearing a robe.
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Nov 27, 2015 05:21
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In It For The Tank posted:I'm pretty sure the implication that something did happen was there. When Monneypenny leaves, Bond is suddenly wearing a robe. Didn't he wear that robe before she arrived? I don't remember.
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Nov 27, 2015 20:23
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I think you are all looking into it too much, Bond and Moneypenny will flirt but they aren't supposed to actually hook up. Something that bothered me on a rewatch, Blofeld showing Madeleine the video of Mr. White killing himself doesn't accomplish anything because Bond already told her what happened. I think it would have been better if he lied to her (or killed White himself) and then had to put in a little more effort to win her back because she falls for him pretty easily (and vice versa).
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Nov 27, 2015 21:50
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Boatswain posted:Didn't he wear that robe before she arrived? I don't remember. I think in the trailer it showed him in the robe, but changed it for the final cut so that he was in a shirt and pants when she first entered the apartment
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Nov 28, 2015 00:56
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Cacator posted:I think you are all looking into it too much, Bond and Moneypenny will flirt but they aren't supposed to actually hook up. I am convinced that, at some point, this was the case. It is such a clusterfuck of redone content that it is impossible to tell what is the product of sloppy rewrites and reshoots, and what is the product of the original script just being dumb. It only makes sense that he was trying to shield her from simply seeing it if she were really emotionally frail, which she does not appear to be.
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Nov 28, 2015 01:01
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Holy poo poo was that last hour bad! James Bond as a psychological thriller/PG-13 horror movie? And still, the only movie to ever to do Blofeld right is Austin Powers.
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Nov 28, 2015 07:04
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In It For The Tank posted:I'm pretty sure the implication that something did happen was there. When Monneypenny leaves, Bond is suddenly wearing a robe. It was an interesting cut to her leaving on the street, I think it's ambiguous and up to how the audience views their relationship whether they slept together or not. Didn't they do the deed in the last movie anyway? Unless intimate shaving was all that happened.
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Nov 28, 2015 07:34
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Bond and Moneypenny do not hook up that just would not be right.
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Nov 28, 2015 08:18
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Bond is surprised to realize Moneypenny has a man over when he calls her later and her response is "I have a life outside my work James, you should try it." Unless she means to be really insulting (like implying that sleeping with him was 'work') that suggests to me they did not sleep together earlier in the movie.
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Nov 28, 2015 08:20
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The first scene was ambiguous but her later comment pretty much rammed home the "nope".
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Nov 28, 2015 08:58
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The main problem with this movie is that it felt like a story that could have been told with any previous Bond actor (and ostensibly was, with it being a retread of a previous villain and many references to past tropes). Each of the last few really tried to grapple with what Craig Bond should be in the morning era - Casino Royale rebooted the character and brought it back down to a grounded level, Quantum of Solace continued that approach with a modern action focus (with very mixed results) and Skyfall brought a self-conscious meta-commentary to the series as a whole. Each of those things only made sense with this new Bond - but with the ending of Skyfall restoring the status quo, they were left to run with a very traditional Bond story. It also seeps through the filmmaking, while always technically proficient, that neither Bond or Mendes really wanted to make the film. It's such a shame that Quantum of Solace wasn't very good - the script was weak, Forster's aesthetic doesn't make it an exciting film to be in - because I think continuing from the approach of the previous film was a great idea (they just executed it in the worst possible way). Casino Royale, and even Quantum of Solace as poo poo as it is, felt like they were trying to be more than just "Bond movies", where, on the other hand, this one is trying to be the quintessential Bond movie. I think you'd be hard pressed to argue an ordering of quality of Craig Bond movies that isn't Casino Royale > Skyfall > Spectre > Quantum of Solace.
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Nov 29, 2015 03:59
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Actually, I think a lot of people owe QOS a rewatch, especially if they watch Casino Royale immediately before it because the films segue into each other and it greatly improves the experience. I rewatched it after seeing Spectre and found that QOS skews much closer to the objectively best film Casino Royale than the the latter two films in the Craig quadrilogy. Whatever gripes I might have noticed about the film, I still think it's better than Skyfall and Spectre (an opinion which I acknowledge is unusual but, personally, I never got the appeal of Skyfall and think it's pretty underwhelming). My order would be Casino Royale first, QOS as a very distant second, and Skyfall and Spectre bringing up the rear in any order because they are both are kind of equally "meh". I'd be interested, if anyone has the time, of reading a critique of QOS that explains why it's so disliked. The major problems I can think of in the film (the overenthusiastic editing, the forgettable villain, the seemingly low stakes, the bad theme song, etc.) didn't really affect my enjoyment of it as a whole.
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Nov 29, 2015 05:03
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In It For The Tank posted:Actually, I think a lot of people owe QOS a rewatch, especially if they watch Casino Royale immediately before it because the films segue into each other and it greatly improves the experience. I rewatched it after seeing Spectre and found that QOS skews much closer to the objectively best film Casino Royale than the the latter two films in the Craig quadrilogy. Whatever gripes I might have noticed about the film, I still think it's better than Skyfall and Spectre (an opinion which I acknowledge is unusual but, personally, I never got the appeal of Skyfall and think it's pretty underwhelming). I tried to watch it again a couple of years ago to give it another chance. My brain simply can't process QoS because of the editing. I'm curious to try it again, but it's not streaming anywhere right now. But I will add to the conversation that I liked Skyfall even though it was kind of bland. That's part of why I like the history of Bond. It's not necessarily about action. I tend to aggregate all of the Bond movies together when I watch one, and that allows me to like almost all of them(It's starting to get real hard since we got 3.25 good ones out of the last 8). Sometimes you just have to enjoy a slow Bond movie. Goldfinger, for example. The Human Crouton fucked around with this message at 05:21 on Nov 29, 2015 |
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Nov 29, 2015 05:15
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No, I'm sorry, but two lovely half-movies awkwardly sandwiched together into a "story" with no stakes, no interesting characters, and no character development for Bond that he didn't already get in the closing moments of CR, is not in fact better than Skyfall. I would rather rewatch Die Another Day than QoS.
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Nov 29, 2015 05:50
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Qos banality-of-evil corporate pussy stooge was a better villian than a magical 'because the plot said so' Javier Bardem (although Bardens performance is so so much better). But QoS has a genuine excuse for its mediocre plot with the writers strike. What can skyfall and spectre point to for their mediocrity? I also think the first 5 minutes of QoS are the best of any Bond movie, ever. It's the first thing I watched when I got a new TV and sound system and I blew my company away.
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Nov 29, 2015 06:14
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I liked Skyfall better than Casino Royale, but they were quite close. Very different films, but both very enjoyable.
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Nov 29, 2015 08:11
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In It For The Tank posted:Actually, I think a lot of people owe QOS a rewatch, especially if they watch Casino Royale immediately before it because the films segue into each other and it greatly improves the experience. I rewatched it after seeing Spectre and found that QOS skews much closer to the objectively best film Casino Royale than the the latter two films in the Craig quadrilogy. Whatever gripes I might have noticed about the film, I still think it's better than Skyfall and Spectre (an opinion which I acknowledge is unusual but, personally, I never got the appeal of Skyfall and think it's pretty underwhelming). I've defended QoS in Cinema Discusso before and I'll do it again: QoS has more originality and creativity than Spectre/Skyfall do. It's an actual continuance of the Casino Royale re-grounding. Spectre/Skyfall have huge chunks cribbed from the last 50 years. QoS was at least fresh. The two latest films are so similar it's kind of a joke. Both have M getting involved, both have 'villains from the past' and both fall flat as there's so little tension. They're basically 'more' of the stuff that Casino Royale was moving away from. It's much more novel and interesting to have Greene go nuts with a fireaxe than to have Blofeld basically copy poo poo from other movies.
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Nov 29, 2015 08:54
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This movie honestly did nothing for me. It felt like a by the numbers bond movie. The opening didn't wow, the morocco train ride was maybe a nice throwback to some interwar glamour, and the ending was rescue the girl exploding building. I'm not after 100% original because thats not going to happen with a bond movie. But this didn't even do the old things better or with a remix. You've got the callbacks, blofield, etc but jesus christ was this a boring movie to watch.
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Nov 29, 2015 16:21
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mastajake posted:I liked Skyfall better than Casino Royale, but they were quite close. Very different films, but both very enjoyable. Yeah, Skyfall is for me probably my favourite Bond film, and I kinda wish it was the last Bond film. (I mean, they put 'this is the end' in the lyrics, for christ's sake!) Fangz fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Nov 29, 2015 |
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Nov 29, 2015 17:54
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Ammanas posted:What can skyfall and spectre point to for their mediocrity? John Logan.
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Nov 29, 2015 18:21
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Fangz posted:(I mean, they put 'this is the end' in the lyrics, for christ's sake!) My pet theory is that, with the MGM bankruptcy stuff happening in real life, something in the back of EON's minds during the production of Skyfall was "What would be an acceptable final Bond movie ever?" Skyfall ends with the old order restored, which could be interpreted as bringing the reboot to a close, making it more of a prequel trilogy in effect. It also seemed like there was a real push with Skyfall that it had to be really loving good; that was something that really got pushed harder than with any of the other Craig movies. "Best Bond Ever" was all over the advertisements for Skyfall, which makes sense if they thought it might possibly be the last ride for 007. If it was going to be the end, they wanted to send the series out on a high note. Spectre is much more self-consciously setting up sequels, but still weirdly final. Since Craig can have another film if we wants, my prediction going in was that they'd know better than to kill Blofeld right away, but they might want to clear the slate for a new actor, so I thought that Spectre might end on a cliffhanger that would be resolved with Bond killing Blofeld in Spectre Part 2. If I had to guess now, the next film will deal with the trial of Blofeld, because after all this arc poo poo they won't send out Craig on a standalone.
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Nov 29, 2015 20:02
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The Human Crouton posted:Holy poo poo was that last hour bad! James Bond as a psychological thriller/PG-13 horror movie? He's exactly the same character in On Her Majesty's Secret Service. That movie is completely absurd and Blofeld is a giant cartoon character. Dr. Evil can't even really be called a parody of Blofeld; he's just been put into a more appropriate setting.
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Dec 1, 2015 07:08
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I agree - Dr. Evil is just a combination of You Only Live Twice and OHMSS Blofeld with a touch of the notBlofeld that got tossed out of the helicopter. Austin is pretty much a British Our Man Flint on top of that.
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Dec 1, 2015 20:11
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Cacator posted:I think you are all looking into it too much, Bond and Moneypenny will flirt but they aren't supposed to actually hook up. I really did think we were about to see Bond kill White for a moment when Blofeld brought the video up, but then I remembered we were with Bond for that whole scene and it wasn't told as a flashback, and there wouldn't be a way to hand wave that.
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Dec 3, 2015 16:53
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ElMudo posted:I really did think we were about to see Bond kill White for a moment when Blofeld brought the video up, but then I remembered we were with Bond for that whole scene and it wasn't told as a flashback, and there wouldn't be a way to hand wave that.
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Dec 3, 2015 16:58
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Simply Simon posted:I thought the video would have been doctored to show Bond killing White to emphasize how Blofeld controls information and also how he uses that power solely to gently caress with Bond but welp The video editing henchman was on vacation that week, and the henchmen union really frowns on bringing in contractors. gently caress with Bond, sure, but not the United Henchmen - Union of Minions.
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Dec 3, 2015 17:05
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Blofeld fires up Windows Movie Maker, cuts just before White shoots himself, inserts this: "That should do it. Why do I keep paying these guys?" / 
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Dec 3, 2015 17:22
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Simply Simon posted:I thought the video would have been doctored to show Bond killing White to emphasize how Blofeld controls information and also how he uses that power solely to gently caress with Bond but welp Exactly this! This would have been a perfectly natural payoff and a decent surprise since we all saw what really happened. Just add this to the thousand interesting things they could've done with Blofeld and failed at.
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Dec 3, 2015 17:48
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I don't know what's hard to follow here, Bond told Madeline that her father killed himself but he didn't say that Bond gave him the means to do it and he consciously omits that detail. This is what Blofeld is revealing to her with his resources. I don't care for the movie but this was my take on that scene and it was pretty apparent to me in the theatre.
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Dec 4, 2015 14:06
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That's a silly explanation. As an assassin, White has any number of ways to kill himself, and it's not like the film raises the idea of Swann turning against Bond for this at all. White was also dying anyway. Honestly it actually makes no real sense for White to kill himself, vs say, going down fighting or trying to disappear. If he's set Bond on this mission to take down Blofeld and protect his daughter, he now has a reason to live to see if Bond lives up to it. It's weird that he's suddenly suicidal when he wasn't before Bond arrived. Edit: why does the spectre dude come to White's hideout if spectre knows, from the CCTV, that White's already dead? To smile at the camera? Fangz fucked around with this message at 14:27 on Dec 4, 2015 |
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Dec 4, 2015 14:19
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Bond gives White the gun to establish trust, if Blofeld had only shown Bond handing it over and cut to White immediately shooting himself, then maaaaybe Madeleine would have been fooled for a moment into thinking that Bond manipulated her dying father into ending it a few weeks early, or something. All of this is senseless anyway because there was zero payoff in the form of Madeleine being mad at Bond for even a second, so if the movie wanted to make it seem like Blofeld skillfully manipulating them, it hosed up, and if it wanted to show anything else, it hosed up for me because I have no idea what else the benefit of the scene could have been.
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Dec 4, 2015 14:23
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It seems to me that the idea was that that scene was meant to show how nice Bond is that he cares about this girl's feelings, meanwhile Blofeld is a jerk that makes ladies sad, insert eyerolls here.
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Dec 4, 2015 14:29
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Fangz posted:Edit: why does the spectre dude come to White's hideout if spectre knows, from the CCTV, that White's already dead? To smile at the camera?
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Dec 4, 2015 14:36
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Fangz posted:That's a silly explanation. As an assassin, White has any number of ways to kill himself, and it's not like the film raises the idea of Swann turning against Bond for this at all. White was also dying anyway. As you say, he was already dying from the poison, and shooting himself probably seemed like a better death than continuing to deteriorate over the next few days/weeks. I also suspect that he understood that it was only a matter of time before Spectre tracked him down because Bond had managed to find him (case in point: Hinx showing up not long after Bond) and that a death at Spectre's hands, especially after giving Bond information, meant a death by inches.
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Dec 5, 2015 00:24
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Simply Simon posted:Someone said earlier that the only way the train scene makes sense (Hinx trying to kill Bond even though Blofeld clearly wants him to arrive at the hideout) is that after Hinx runs from the meeting to car chase Bond, he never got another order from SPECTRE high command. This would tentatively explain him showing up a White's hideout late - maybe he even wanted to set up an ambush there, but Bond beat him. It's a stretch, but a better explanation than many other points in the movie have. but he goes after swan with a big team of dudes, so that really doesn't hold water the movie was stupid
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Dec 5, 2015 05:37
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Everyone here who has been going on about "what's the point of showing Madeleine how her father died and why Bond didn't want her to see it" hasn't probably actually seen their father die before his time in person. Hearing and knowing your father is dead hurts a lot less than actually seeing them die, and seeing them die in such a violent way as a suicide by gun is a whole lot worse. Blofeld's whole thing was trying to hurt Bond as much as he could, and he'd correctly identified that Bond had fallen in love with Madeleine - ergo, time to hurt both, Madeleine by showing how her father died, and Bond by making him watch how a woman he loves suffers. There's no great mystery there as to why Bond didn't want Madeleine to see how her father died, it is just that Bond didn't want to see her suffer. To quote an earlier post:Fangz posted:It seems to me that the idea was that that scene was meant to show how nice Bond is that he cares about this girl's feelings, meanwhile Blofeld is a jerk that makes ladies sad, insert eyerolls here. There's really nothing wrong with a scene having a simple purpose. The scene shows that Bond cares about Madeleine, that for all her talk Madeleine still mourns her father, and that Blofeld is a sadistic, obsessed psychopath who wants to hurt Madeleine just because he knows it would make Bond feel bad. I mean, that tells quite a lot about Blofeld actually, he's a man that would emotionally torture someone just to make Bond feel bad.
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Dec 5, 2015 10:40
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It just seemed like a massive panicky over reaction from Bond to me. Screaming and trying to tackle Blofeld over a video that Swann already knew the ending of seems a bit much when his voice barely quavered while watching his last lady get shot in the face in Skyfall.
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Dec 5, 2015 15:51
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SpiritOfLenin posted:Everyone here who has been going on about "what's the point of showing Madeleine how her father died and why Bond didn't want her to see it" hasn't probably actually seen their father die before his time in person. Hearing and knowing your father is dead hurts a lot less than actually seeing them die, and seeing them die in such a violent way as a suicide by gun is a whole lot worse. Blofeld's whole thing was trying to hurt Bond as much as he could, and he'd correctly identified that Bond had fallen in love with Madeleine - ergo, time to hurt both, Madeleine by showing how her father died, and Bond by making him watch how a woman he loves suffers. There's no great mystery there as to why Bond didn't want Madeleine to see how her father died, it is just that Bond didn't want to see her suffer. To quote an earlier post: Exactly the case. People start going on about 'plot holes' when they haven't paid attention to the story - the actual presentation. First of all, the suicide appears on every screen of Blofeld's control room, where he gathers data from across the entire world. The imagery is consequently of the entire world being unbearably hopeless and awful. Bond tells Madeline to concentrate on his face, and block that stuff out. The soundtrack still emphasizes the gunshot, but the effect is that Madeline has to believe Bond. The contrast is between belief and positive knowledge. This is related to the scene where Bond pointedly does not watch the Vesper interrogation tape he finds - and, of course, to the very next scene. It cuts to a close-up of Bond's face, of course, while Blofeld forces Madeline (and the audience) to see only a mass of grey matter to be manipulated. Then Blofeld objectively removes Bond's ability to love, and yet, Bond still loves Madeline. This is all science fiction stuff, straight out of Man Of Steel (a symbol of hope sinking into an ocean of skulls, x-ray vision causing people to appear as puppets...) or the Robocop remake. Sci-fi Bond has always been more interesting than, like, the Casino Royale version. Rewatching Casino recently, it's totally bogged down in plot and doesn't do enough with the actually-interesting BodyWorlds and eye-violence imagery, where Spectre really goes all-out with it.
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Dec 5, 2015 23:20
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If your double-o agent's best plan is show up and turn themselves in at your enemy's volcano mansion, it would be a good idea to have Q equip them with a 2-shot buttplug zip gun.
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Dec 7, 2015 11:11
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SpiritOfLenin posted:Everyone here who has been going on about "what's the point of showing Madeleine how her father died and why Bond didn't want her to see it" hasn't probably actually seen their father die before his time in person. Hearing and knowing your father is dead hurts a lot less than actually seeing them die I don't remember, did Bond see his parents die? His reaction would make a lot of sense if he did, and I guess it does even if he didn't. I think I was so caught up in what I expected from that scene that I didn't actually notice what it was trying to say. The theme for all three characters was death of their parents: Bond knew the pain from his parents dying when he was a child, Blofeld knew the pain of his father "loving" Bond more and killing his father for it, and Madeleine just had her father die. For some reason I didn't realize that was a central theme for all three of them. I also can't remember what happened to Blofeld's mother. Did he kill her as well?
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