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I haven't tried a 1970 spec engine yet, but my pushrod V6 from GTE revved quite a bit higher than that.
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Jul 23, 2015 02:22
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The modern OHV engines we saw in SA-GTE are way, way better than the pushrod engines we'll see in this round. Like it's actually almost comical how much difference there will be.
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Jul 23, 2015 02:51
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I've got an 8.4l pushrod that revs to 6300 rpm iirc with 10 QP in valve train and cams around 60 or 70 (phone posting so I can't double check at the moment), and while it's not the most reliable engine, it runs and makes power at those revs, so learn how to make better engines I guess?
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Jul 23, 2015 03:00
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OK, since you guys seem to be clamouring for it, here are the preliminary rules for SA-GT  SA-GT submissions will open on September 1st! Rules and season schedule will be announced at that time; each player can enter a maximum of two classes. These criteria are subject to changes between now and then. MrChips fucked around with this message at 05:00 on Aug 1, 2015 |
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Jul 23, 2015 05:16
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Cool, got a month to learn how to play...
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Jul 23, 2015 17:27
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drat, it's hard to hit 30 reliability on the Touring class with a 1500 cc engine. Even with max QPs in bottom end, valvetrain, and fueling, and 2 pts in exhaust, I just barely hit 30.0 even, and that only by going to a 2bbl carb instead of 4bbl. I would suggest relaxing the single-carb requirement on Touring and Sportsmen classes though, as twin- or triple-DCOE i4s and i6s were very much a thing amongst sporty cars in the 60's and early 70's (240Z, BMW 2002, Datsun 510, Jag E-types all were available from the factory with twin (triple in the case of the Jag) sidedraft carbs). The reliability penalty from multiple carbs combined with the QP limits will probably keep most people in those classes using single carbs anyways, elsewise they're likely to have low enough reliability that they'll end up not completing many races. Militant Lesbian fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Jul 23, 2015 |
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Jul 23, 2015 17:33
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So I'm an idiot and you can make a 289. You have to make a larger engine and then destroke it using the family variant tab. I have a couple of questions about the newest competition. What is the situation with quality points and tires? Do more quality points still correspond to faster wear, and does this have much affect in the touring class when limited to just 6 points? Do the points per item and overall QP's apply to the interior? HotCanadianChick posted:drat, it's hard to hit 30 reliability on the Touring class with a 1500 cc engine. Even with max QPs in bottom end, valvetrain, and fueling, and 2 pts in exhaust, I just barely hit 30.0 even, and that only by going to a 2bbl carb instead of 4bbl. I had trouble getting to 20 reliability with an I6, but was able to get over 40 with an I4. I think that the reliability will be one of the toughest requirements in that class.
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Jul 23, 2015 18:19
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Reliability has not been my issue keeping the car (TC) under budget and under max weight has.
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Jul 23, 2015 19:07
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Kilonum posted:Reliability has not been my issue   My first draft, before I had even looked at weight or cost or done any optimizing for them. 
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Jul 23, 2015 19:35
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The body style selections suck for 1970, and half of them are 50s styling anyway. Has anyone ever made assets for Steam Workshop? "How hard could it be?" He mused to himself.
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Jul 23, 2015 20:55
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^^^How well do you know Blender?Kilonum posted:Reliability has not been my issue You can use negative QPs in any section if you need to, just know that you don't get credit for them, as in if you put -10 into something, you don't get an extra 10 to spend anywhere else. Hint: put negative QPs into safety until you reach the minimum safety value. You'll save a huge amount of weight and cost. Also, this challenge is supposed to be quite a bit more difficult than SA-GTE was, which was largely an exercise to prove the viability of such a thing. This is just an improvement on the previous one. Speaking of improvements, interspersed in the racing season will be a few new challenges; tarmac rally stages and hillclimbs...one of which is Pike's Peak. Also, lacking a good selection of historic tracks, I am taking up track editing...first on the list is Targa Florio. 
MrChips fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Jul 23, 2015 |
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Jul 23, 2015 21:21
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I don't know how you can go over on cost. My open class car is still under the total cost limit for the sportsman class. Here is a preview of the Decimator Venom Snake I guess those intake runners count as a bug. but I like it. This is powered by a 427 that makes about 500 ft/lbs of torque and 460 horsepower.
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Jul 23, 2015 21:41
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MrChips posted:Speaking of improvements, interspersed in the racing season will be a few new challenges; tarmac rally stages and hillclimbs...one of which is Pike's Peak. Also, lacking a good selection of historic tracks, I am taking up track editing...first on the list is Targa Florio. Yes! I reiterate my desire for a rally championship for the 3rd competition.
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Jul 24, 2015 10:32
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Warning! Effort post coming up! What is the point of limiting quality, material, suspension and fuel system when you already have a money limit? Let me waste half my budget on a fibre glass body and hydropneumatic suspension while trying to figure out how to make due with the rest. Having a QP limit per engine/trim is one thing but let me choose where to put them. Why can't you build crazy FWD cars in the Open class? Might as well restrict lips in addition to wings but why does Open class have a rear wing restriction? Does a (skid) undertray count as aerodynamic device? I dont see why push-rods should get a capacity bonus. They are cheaper, lighter and more reliable. In any case, the capacity in Sportsman class is not high enough to allow to use a 4.7l V8 (OHV) like in the 67 Mustangs or a 5.2l V8 (OHV) like in the 66 Dodge Charger. Nevermind the 67 Charger's 7.2l V8 (OHV). It is also not high capacity enough to allow Jaguar's 3.8/4.2l XK6 I6 (DOHC) in the 61-68 E-type. Instead of limiting fuel system choice how about restricting fuel type and intake instead? Sportmen and Touring class should perhaps not be allowed to take race intakes and exhausts. What is the point of requiring mufflers? You put on a "straight" and have no improvement in noise levels or decrease in power. Set a db limit or drop it. Why is gearing limited in Touring class? Until a bug is fixed you need to disallow negative quality points in gearboxes because the economy calculation's broken. Forcing open diff would be a good idea for all. Autolocker is stupid. Why are we not allowed to use power steering? It's been sold in cars since 51. A maximum weight limit? Are you aware trying to use the muscle car body makes it impossible to get under 1100kg using steel? Either let me build a two ton car or let me use aluminium! (Curb weight for the Mustang was 1109kg.) The E-type body has problems reaching 1200kg. Very nice to see you so concerned with car reliability but what about having to have minimum standards for drivability, sportiness, comfort or prestige? Are we allowed to use mods from the Steam workshop? (Except VMO's, he's edited the files of his for performance poo poo.) I am still a fan of dropping weight and engine capacity limits and requiring power:weight ratios instead. Less rules; gives people more choices, while still keeping it balanced. Riso fucked around with this message at 13:25 on Jul 24, 2015 |
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Jul 24, 2015 11:38
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It does seem like the rules as presented are going to produce a very narrow band of successful designs.
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Jul 24, 2015 13:13
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I also think a little tweaking of the rules needs to be done. The open class has 40 points max for the engine, but you can only put nine in any one category so the max you can put into the engine is 36. I also think we should consider using the same wheels and tires or at least remove the limits. You can't go anywhere near the width limits without going really small on the rims and losing all your brakes.
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Jul 24, 2015 14:25
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Riso posted:I dont see why push-rods should get a capacity bonus. They are cheaper, lighter and more reliable. I agree with a bunch of your points, but these two are off. OHV gets a displacement bonus because OHV engines cannot breathe as well at high RPM, nor rev as high as OHC engines, so they need more capacity to make up the difference. A good example of this in modern engines would be the BMW S65 V8 from the last gen M3 vs the LS3 from the last gen Corvette and Camaro - both make fairly similar horsepower, but the OHV Chevy engine is 2.3 liters larger in displacement than 4.0 liter the BMW engine, and the BMW engine does it by revving much higher and flowing more air at those revs. It's a fair trade off - you can either get power from revving high, or from just having a larger displacement, both are valid approaches with their share of pros and cons. And the Touring and Sportsmen classes do not appear to be there to represent muscle cars as such; they are a series for small cheap entry level sporting cars from that era like Datsun 510s and 240zs, or Ford Cortinas or other smaller cars. It's a "1970 retro" series, not "1970 muscle car/Trans-Am" series. You may only care about American muscle cars, but small displacement cars like the above were very heavily raced during the 60s and 70's. Though on that note, it is silly to mandate RWD for the lower classes, as one of the most popular rallying and club cars of that era in Europe were FWD Mini Coopers, and if someone wants to make a tiny 1500cc FWD Cooper replica for the race, it should be allowed to compete.
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Jul 24, 2015 17:07
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HotCanadianChick posted:OHV gets a displacement bonus because OHV engines cannot breathe as well at high RPM, nor rev as high as OHC engines, so they need more capacity to make up the difference. Might be true but I don't see any racing series in real life giving push-rods more power. I would like not to care about this at all with my favourite power:weight thingy but w/e. quote:
The 510 is a sedan, not a sports car, but would fit indeed into Touring. The 240z however is a sports car, not a Touring. quote:It's a "1970 retro" series, not "1970 muscle car/Trans-Am" series. You may only care about American muscle cars, but small displacement cars like the above were very heavily raced during the 60s and 70's. To satisfy my curiosity I went and checked how much those cars were actually sold for and how much power they had. We start with the Ford Mustang, which was designed as a small, cheap car: 1964, 105-271 bhp 2.368$ or about 18.229$ today 1970, 151-335 bhp 2.720$ or about 16.729$ today Dodge Charger, 230-325 gross hp: 1966 3,120$ or about 22.980$ today Jaguar's E-Type, 265 gross hp: 1961 5.620$ or about 44.854$ today E-Type Coupe, 245 gross hp: 1970 5.800$ or about 37.613.91$ today Datsun 240z, 151 gross/129 net hp 1970 3.626$ (list price, used cars went for 4000$) or about 22.302$ (24.602$) today As you can see, Datun's finest clearly competed with good old yankee pony cars in pricing while being a real sports car. Although for the low budget customer who only imagined to be in real competition with Jaguar and Ferrari which they ripped off for styling. Note: I cant say whether all engines use the same gross or net for power output so I listed what I got. Also Ford offered and used up to dozen different engines, it is a mess.
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Jul 24, 2015 20:48
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Liquid Communism posted:It does seem like the rules as presented are going to produce a very narrow band of successful designs. this is going to be the case no matter what
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Jul 24, 2015 21:36
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First of all, this is challenge is not intended to replicate a top-flight GT series like SA-GTE was; rather, it is more along the lines of the national/continental championships that were common at the time, and the two lower classes are intended to replicate amateur classes where you could go buy a car at a showroom, make a few changes, drive it to the track, race it, then drive it home at the end of the weekend. Having said that, I have no intention of doing anything with prestige or comfort, as they are irrelevant to this exercise and frankly, I have yet to see a challenge that makes good use of these things; I looked into the "Buy on Monday, Race on Sunday" challenge on the Automation forums and found that aspect of the contest to be decidedly lacking. How much prestige or comfort is there in a Mini Cooper or a Porsche 911 (the cars I had in mind when I came up with the Touring and Sportsman classes respectively) with no carpets, a cage and a couple of racing seats? The reliability numbers in the specs are not grounds for disqualification; they are merely the targets you should be aiming for, as the simulation model will punish you for being below that, and punish you a lot harder this time than in SA-GTE ever did. As for the gearbox bug, I am well aware of it and having tested it with SA-GTE fuel economy situation I can tell you (again) that it doesn't affect the calculation at all. I have never seen a racing series that directly mandates a power:weight ratio for its competitors, so that's out even before you get to my tremendous personal distaste for such a thing. Besides, min-max weight and engine size restrictions basically have the same effect anyways. Wings are banned because in 1970 nobody really knew what to do with them at the time, apart from maybe Jim Hall that is. Sure you'll find stuff like the Superbird from 1970 but it is actually debatable just how effective that wing actually was. Regarding pushrod engines, there is a precedent, even as recently as in the late 1990s/2000s, for pushrod engines to have relaxations on displacement so that they could be competitive, which is the primary reason why there is the relaxation here. As for displacement restrictions, I am thinking of relaxing the Touring and Sportsman classes a little bit, and half-rear end toying with completely removing the restrictions in Open class altogether. Fuel and intake restrictions will not be happening; fuel restrictions because the game only has to viable fuel choices in that model year, and intake restrictions because that's like literally the first thing someone would do in that era for more power, was take off their stock air filters and/or get a set of velocity stacks. Same thing with exhaust manifolds; they are a cheap and common aftermarket solution even in the 1970s. Power steering is out because it was very uncommon in race cars and in fact in most non-luxury cars until the 1980s. I'm not interested in letting big-block muscle cars race in the lower classes; like I said, those classes are more for something equivalent to Minis, BMW 2002s and Lotus Elans (Touring) and Porsche 911s, E9 BMWs and Ford Capris (Sportsman). That said, in addition to opening up the displacement in Sportsman class, I might open up the maximum weight in that class slightly as well to allow for Trans-Am-type cars to compete in there. Duckaerobics posted:I also think a little tweaking of the rules needs to be done. The open class has 40 points max for the engine, but you can only put nine in any one category so the max you can put into the engine is 36. I also think we should consider using the same wheels and tires or at least remove the limits. You can't go anywhere near the width limits without going really small on the rims and losing all your brakes. I forgot the engine QP restrictions were still in there; I'm probably going to get rid of them entirely since most of the classes have some pretty serious QP restrictions and beyond that, there will be serious consequences to favouring one category over another in the reliability calculation...again, far more serious than in SA-GTE. HotCanadianChick posted:And the Touring and Sportsmen classes do not appear to be there to represent muscle cars as such; they are a series for small cheap entry level sporting cars from that era like Datsun 510s and 240zs, or Ford Cortinas or other smaller cars. It's a "1970 retro" series, not "1970 muscle car/Trans-Am" series. You may only care about American muscle cars, but small displacement cars like the above were very heavily raced during the 60s and 70's. RWD is only mandatory in the Open class, and the more I think about it the less I like it too. That said since it's the least restricted of all the classes, don't whine to me when your FWD abomination is totally outclassed by everyone else (and half the Sportsman field). And yes, you get what I was aiming for with this; a representation of what touring/GT racing would have been like in the period and not just SA-GTE transplanted into 1970.
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Jul 25, 2015 00:37
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Working on a vehicle for the 1970s class and have a few questions about the proposed rule set. Is the max wheel diameter listed on your rule set the same as RIM diameter or is it the listed Wheel Diameter?  I can't seem to fit wider tires onto the chassis I've chosen - I've flared the fenders like I've had to do with others in order to increase tire width. Has anyone seen issues with the geometry of the 240z body style? I'm seeing the hood / nose clip when applying a grill and other fixtures to the front end.
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Jul 25, 2015 19:47
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extreme_accordion posted:Working on a vehicle for the 1970s class and have a few questions about the proposed rule set. It seems like tire section widths are extremely gimped due to the 1970 bullshit.
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Jul 25, 2015 20:45
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Bias ply tires are crap. Welcome to the 1970s folks, please fasten your lap belts and relax to a nice 8-track. 
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Jul 26, 2015 00:44
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Tremek posted:It seems like tire section widths are extremely gimped due to the 1970 bullshit. Can't even turbo a car in 1970. :P
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Jul 26, 2015 04:43
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extreme_accordion posted:Can't even turbo a car in 1970. :P Can't build a Corvair Monza Spyder replica, voted 1. 
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Jul 26, 2015 05:33
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Cast iron, it appears, is your friend in good old nineteen hundred and seventy. I can make a 600hp v8 and ~300hp i6's even with the current constraints, which is nice.  Go to load everything I did yesterday... and like that I lost 2 days worth of work. 
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Jul 26, 2015 16:55
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I have a couple of questions about the rules. Mostly regarding the touring class. Tyre size, wouldn't it be more practical to just regulate total wheel diameter? So rather than making everyone use 13" rims, just say maximum wheel diameter of 650mm and let players make the choice between brake size versus unsprung mass. I'm phone posting, so I can't double check, but is there a reason why hydropneumatic suspension is banned? Or is that just a matter of the game deciding it didn't exist back then? Lastly, if a car has a dry weight of 770kg, does that mean it gets less fuel to stay under the 800kg wet weight, or would it fail scrutiny because it is too heavy?
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Jul 26, 2015 18:26
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OK, I've made some changes to the rules, first of which is that we are now going to do this in 1975. This means turbocharging and mid-engined cars (ok car) are in! Bear in mind that while turbocharging is - for the moment - effectively unlimited, the same issues facing turbo motors in the SA-GTE challenge remain; that being, extremely high specific fuel consumption and, at least for Sportsman class, prohibitively high cost. Deedle posted:I have a couple of questions about the rules. Mostly regarding the touring class. Since in this time period the tire profiles are very limited in-game, a wheel diameter limit is in effect a tire diameter limitation. Also, most of the bodies have very low maximum tire diameters anyway. Hydropnuematic suspension is expensive; I probably could unban it, but you run the risk of going over the cost limitation in a Touring-class car. Using your example (which is out of date now), here's how the weight limitation works. If your car weighs 770 kg dry, you would have 30 kg of weight available for fuel before you reach the maximum weight, which includes full fuel. Therefore, your fuel tank could only hold 30 kg of fuel - just under 42 litres of fuel. This could put you at a pretty serious disadvantage to a car that is allowed the maximum fuel weight in terms of pit stops - you will have to stop more frequently than the other car. An unrelated but nonetheless interesting observation; it is entirely possible to build a car that, with different trim levels, could compete in two or even all three of the classes in this challenge. MrChips fucked around with this message at 05:00 on Aug 1, 2015 |
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Jul 26, 2015 23:31
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MrChips posted:An unrelated but nonetheless interesting observation; it is entirely possible to build a car that, with different trim levels, could compete in two or even all three of the classes in this challenge. I have one car that fits in two classes with 3 different motors. Is it 1 car per class or 2?
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Jul 27, 2015 04:58
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extreme_accordion posted:I have one car that fits in two classes with 3 different motors. Each entrant can compete in up to two classes with one car in each class. Whether you choose to build one car model with trims that are eligible for the different classes or two entirely different car models is up to you.
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Jul 27, 2015 05:29
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MrChips posted:Each entrant can compete in up to two classes with one car in each class. Whether you choose to build one car model with trims that are eligible for the different classes or two entirely different car models is up to you. Pull a red bull / toro rosso and compete in all three.
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Jul 27, 2015 15:32
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So I made a turbo motor for the open class... The fuel economy is of course terrible and it's not very much faster than my big block cobra clone, but on the other hand it's the closest thing to having a blower stick through the hood I can make.  
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Jul 28, 2015 16:49
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What am I doing wrong? I make a car all the way through, make a variant - it works. Save it, exit game, make another variant and all my poo poo breaks.
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Jul 29, 2015 02:52
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extreme_accordion posted:What am I doing wrong? I make a car all the way through, make a variant - it works. Which body are you using? One of the bodies seems to have problems with saving. I built a car all the way through, saved it, reloaded only to have the game glitch the gently caress out. Restarting didn't fix it either. E: This one (or the one that looks most like it): 
MrChips fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Jul 29, 2015 |
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Jul 29, 2015 03:03
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So my best Sportsman effort so far is getting 8:40 around the GreenHell.zip 'ring (and it's not quite done-or even legal yet, gotta shave a grand off the price somehow). Is that even remotely competitive with what everyone else is seeing? I have a vague feeling I'm doing something wrong 
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Jul 29, 2015 15:07
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Tommychu posted:So my best Sportsman effort so far is getting 8:40 around the GreenHell.zip 'ring (and it's not quite done-or even legal yet, gotta shave a grand off the price somehow). Is that even remotely competitive with what everyone else is seeing? I have a vague feeling I'm doing something wrong And here I thought I could get away with ~330hp. I have nothing even close that fast. Thanks for the benchmark. Riso fucked around with this message at 16:59 on Jul 29, 2015 |
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Jul 29, 2015 16:56
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Riso posted:Thanks for the benchmark. Likewise. I'm pushing 380 (though like I said, I'm over budget so I likely won't have quite that much power once I'm legal) and I haven't tuned the suspension yet.
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Jul 29, 2015 18:31
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Tommychu posted:So my best Sportsman effort so far is getting 8:40 around the GreenHell.zip 'ring (and it's not quite done-or even legal yet, gotta shave a grand off the price somehow). Is that even remotely competitive with what everyone else is seeing? I have a vague feeling I'm doing something wrong I'am at 4:38 around le mans but then my car didn't get saved.
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Jul 29, 2015 20:35
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So far my best effort has been a 1:32.7 around the airfield track with a legal touring class car. However for some reason the game keeps eating my saves, body always gets corrupted.
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Jul 30, 2015 03:09
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Deedle posted:So far my best effort has been a 1:32.7 around the airfield track with a legal touring class car. However for some reason the game keeps eating my saves, body always gets corrupted. I'm also having body corruption issues. What's interesting is none of us saw this on this same build with 2015 cars... I wonder if it's the bodies, or if it's the year. I also had a funky thing happen when suddenly, my 1970 engine had all the 2015 tech available in the selection screens. This build is pretty broken for this pursuit. 
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Jul 30, 2015 03:23
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