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Powercrazy posted:We don't really need any more Steve Jobs and Mark Zuckerburgs, nor do we need another Jeff Bezos, or Larry Ellison anymore then we need another family of Waltons or Kennedy's. The "Great Man" fairy tale is honestly a pretty destructive outlook that contributes a lot to American Exceptionalism, and the Just World that makes people think poor people are just lazy. Going too far in the other direction can be harmful though, eg "Our culture (of white people) creates many great individuals that wouldn't be possible in that other culture (of black people)".
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# ? Jul 24, 2014 00:53 |
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# ? Jun 8, 2024 07:16 |
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Yea the fetishism of immigrants is weird too, these aren't "noble savages," they are just normal people, dealt a lovely handy, looking for an opportunity.
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# ? Jul 24, 2014 01:46 |
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Powercrazy posted:Yea the fetishism of immigrants is weird too, these aren't "noble savages," they are just normal people, dealt a lovely handy, looking for an opportunity. I don't know... I've felt a lot of things since immigrating here thirteen years ago - hated, feared, mistrusted, alienated, etc. - but "fetishized" is not one of them. On the day I got my green card, the letter that came with it said "it is with great pleasure that we welcome you to permanent resident status in the United States" and it was such a bizarre thing to read that I had to check if the letter was fake. Slow News Day fucked around with this message at 02:56 on Jul 24, 2014 |
# ? Jul 24, 2014 02:52 |
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computer parts posted:Going too far in the other direction can be harmful though, eg "Our culture (of white people) creates many great individuals that wouldn't be possible in that other culture (of black people)". How is that the other direction?
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# ? Jul 24, 2014 08:16 |
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Powercrazy posted:Yea the fetishism of immigrants is weird too, these aren't "noble savages," they are just normal people, dealt a lovely handy, looking for an opportunity. Which is basically the same ancestry-wise of any person that is currently living in america outside of the small native population, but even some staunch progressives have a tough time holding back on "illegals" when I mention immigration, as if there is a tide of bloodsucking parasites and not people just wanting to slightly improve their hosed up situations.
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# ? Jul 24, 2014 13:54 |
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joeburz posted:Which is basically the same ancestry-wise of any person that is currently living in america outside of the small native population, but even some staunch progressives have a tough time holding back on "illegals" when I mention immigration, as if there is a tide of bloodsucking parasites and not people just wanting to slightly improve their hosed up situations. Well you have to discriminate. Unless you are for unconditional open-borders, there has to be a process to legally immigrate and what do you do about people who have illegally bypassed that process? What do you do if they start a family in the new country after bypassing the process? These are completely independent questions from the current broken process.
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# ? Jul 24, 2014 15:52 |
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VideoTapir posted:How is that the other direction? Because it's a rejection of the "Great Man" in favor of the "Great Culture".
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# ? Jul 24, 2014 19:56 |
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computer parts posted:Because it's a rejection of the "Great Man" in favor of the "Great Culture". I think the former is an extension of the latter, actually.
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# ? Jul 24, 2014 21:18 |
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enraged_camel posted:I think the former is an extension of the latter, actually. Plenty of libertarians would disagree with you, but in any case it's very much possible for people to exemplify culture without exemplifying specific people.
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# ? Jul 24, 2014 21:20 |
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enraged_camel posted:I'm not sure why the USA is special and should be spared from the global trend of downward pressure on wages. People shouldn't be forced to 'earn' a decent living when technology has made basic sustenance so incredibly cheap. The labor market is a relic of a hardscrabble time when you had to wrest your food from the unyielding stony earth, and doesn't make much sense when we're literally running out of things for people to do.
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# ? Jul 24, 2014 21:45 |
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See, its funny. I can tell that most of the people in this thread are all not descendants of immigrants (as in, my old man received their naturalization through military service). All this 'amnesty" garbage would effectively be a "gently caress you" to all of us who have to wait in lines, pay money, have relatives who can make sure we can afford keeping a green card person not in poverty, for people who work illegally and destroy wage structures and jobs that African Americans (I use that to separate them from say myself, a 'second/third depending on which side of the family you ask,) [Although through would work in. Also, why do you not support drug legalization, which would help improve Mexico and other South American countries. I'm sorry if I'm contrarian, but when you have filled out hundreds of immigration papers, visa requests, signed forms, and gone to naturalization ceremonies, you would understand that people who have worked hard, and not had the luck to simply cross a border (luck meaning they COULD, rather than it was easy, immigrating across the desert, dealing with rapists, drug lords and violence is not luck() (and I know about open borders, my homeland has an issue with genuine terrorists invading and bombing schoolhouses), is not .. fair. But I have a unique perspective, since we managed to immigrate here, after losing a civil war (Biafra), and we managed to get to the middle class without stealing social security numbers or working under the table.
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# ? Jul 24, 2014 21:47 |
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Popular Thug Drink posted:People shouldn't be forced to 'earn' a decent living when technology has made basic sustenance so incredibly cheap. The labor market is a relic of a hardscrabble time when you had to wrest your food from the unyielding stony earth, and doesn't make much sense when we're literally running out of things for people to do. I totally agree. If it were up to me, I would implement Unconditional Basic Income for everyone, so that working is completely optional. It is not up to me, however, so we have the system we have now. Might as well deal with the reality.
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# ? Jul 24, 2014 22:01 |
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Ryand-Smith posted:See, its funny. I can tell that most of the people in this thread are all not descendants of immigrants (as in, my old man received their naturalization through military service). 3rd generation immigrant from both sides, all the amnesty "garbage" as you put it is a bit more nuanced than you present. Also you're reading like a migration version of the awful minimum wage argument "why should people get paid 15 dollars an hour when i only make 18????"
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# ? Jul 24, 2014 22:14 |
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joeburz posted:3rd generation immigrant from both sides, all the amnesty "garbage" as you put it is a bit more nuanced than you present. Also you're reading like a migration version of the awful minimum wage argument "why should people get paid 15 dollars an hour when i only make 18????" To be fair, amnesty is unfair garbage from his perspective. Student loan amnesty would be garbage from my perspective, BUT both are probably needed to some degree to keep our society stable. People just get raw when all their planning turns out to be for naught. Think of how angry Boomers would be if the government just let housing prices crash. Having a life plan is something built in to the weird brand of Protestantism that Americans subscribe to.
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# ? Jul 24, 2014 22:22 |
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Popular Thug Drink posted:People shouldn't be forced to 'earn' a decent living when technology has made basic sustenance so incredibly cheap. The labor market is a relic of a hardscrabble time when you had to wrest your food from the unyielding stony earth, and doesn't make much sense when we're literally running out of things for people to do. If you want to have a strong basic income program, you can't also have essentially open borders. You have to maximize the percentage of the population who can build and maintain the technology that allows a high standard of living, and minimize the people who have no hope of ever contributing to the economy, but still get a paycheck for breathing.
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# ? Jul 25, 2014 00:56 |
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Ryand-Smith posted:See, its funny. I can tell that most of the people in this thread are all not descendants of immigrants (as in, my old man received their naturalization through military service). By this argument, we must never make immigration any easier, lest your parents' experience be devalued. C'mon, that's horseshit. Making things better isn't an insult to people who've had it hard. quote:Also, why do you not support drug legalization, which would help improve Mexico and other South American countries. If this isn't a majority opinion in D&D, I'd be surprised. quote:I'm sorry if I'm contrarian, but when you have filled out hundreds of immigration papers, visa requests, signed forms, and gone to naturalization ceremonies, you would understand that people who have worked hard, and not had the luck to simply cross a border (luck meaning they COULD, rather than it was easy, immigrating across the desert, dealing with rapists, drug lords and violence is not luck() (and I know about open borders, my homeland has an issue with genuine terrorists invading and bombing schoolhouses), is not .. fair. Ah, so it boils down FYGM in the end.
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# ? Jul 25, 2014 09:14 |
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So Pope Guilty, what you are saying is, if I have this right, it is OK to commit crime, and then be forgiven for it because you had a hard experience? If so, it was perfectly fine for the police to violate people's rights to privacy, they were being forced by their command to do so. I mean, I want to know if you think that it is ok to commit crime, regardless of exceptional skill, because by that logic I should start smuggling people from my homeland in freighter since they are engineers and doctors, and America needs more STEM workers!
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# ? Jul 25, 2014 23:40 |
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Ryand-Smith posted:So Pope Guilty, what you are saying is, if I have this right, it is OK to commit crime, and then be forgiven for it because you had a hard experience? If so, it was perfectly fine for the police to violate people's rights to privacy, they were being forced by their command to do so. I mean, I want to know if you think that it is ok to commit crime, regardless of exceptional skill, because by that logic I should start smuggling people from my homeland in freighter since they are engineers and doctors, and America needs more STEM workers! It's hard for many D&Ders to get upset over commuting the crime of coming over and living in a place. Murder, theft, and even white collar crimes are much more exciting and dangerous to the society at large. Also, the STEM thing is a whole 'nother kettle of fish. I'd argue people talk about needing more STEM workers to drive down their wages.
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# ? Jul 26, 2014 00:00 |
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So Destroying children's credit is being a "good neighbor? and just living? I mean, I don't know about you guys but my credit IS how I earn my money, and if someone was to steal my SSN to try and make a better life for themselves, but they destroyed mine, that sure isn't ethical.
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# ? Jul 26, 2014 00:21 |
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Dmitri-9 posted:What? If american workers really had no marginal value to companies then wages would fall without immigration because the companies would just globalize more. HB1s are just a naked wealth transfer to owners and the only thing the US has to get used to is billionaires with unlimited greed and fat media budgets. HB1s requires reform but right now they are a pretty good ticket out of corrupt/poor second world countries for a whole bunch of people. joeburz posted:3rd generation immigrant from both sides, all the amnesty "garbage" as you put it is a bit more nuanced than you present. Also you're reading like a migration version of the awful minimum wage argument "why should people get paid 15 dollars an hour when i only make 18????"
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# ? Jul 26, 2014 00:25 |
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Typo posted:HB1s requires reform but right now they are a pretty good ticket out of corrupt/poor second world countries for a whole bunch of people. I'm a second generation immigrant and I think the same thing, does my opinion get to count?
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# ? Jul 26, 2014 00:42 |
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Badger of Basra posted:I'm a second generation immigrant and I think the same thing, does my opinion get to count? I actually don't really give a poo poo but trying to flash third generation immigrants as something meaningful is kinda dumb
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# ? Jul 26, 2014 00:46 |
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Ryand-Smith posted:See, its funny. I can tell that most of the people in this thread are all not descendants of immigrants (as in, my old man received their naturalization through military service). gently caress You, Got Mine. I grew up poor as poo poo and my overwhelming desire is to not have anyone have to go through the poo poo I did, not sure how immigration is different.
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# ? Jul 26, 2014 01:12 |
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Immigration violations are a civil (or is it administrative) offense, not a criminal one. Like illegal parking, except instead of your car getting towed, it's you.
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# ? Jul 26, 2014 01:17 |
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Ryand-Smith posted:See, its funny. I can tell that most of the people in this thread are all not descendants of immigrants (as in, my old man received their naturalization through military service). There isn't a line. There's a lottery, for most people. A lottery is not in line. And no, if, for example, I have to these days stand in line and fill out all sorts of forms to be able to get a loan for college, that doesn't mean that if we declared tomorrow that everyone from now on gets to go to college free with no hassle, it wouldn't be a gently caress you to me. It'd be a good thing that was happening. Illegal workers also don't destroy wage structures. Lack of worker protection does that, and immigrants being too afraid of deportation to report labor abuses. If we prioritized labor abuses above deportation, we'd see much better conditions. quote:I'm sorry if I'm contrarian, but when you have filled out hundreds of immigration papers, visa requests, signed forms, and gone to naturalization ceremonies, you would understand that people who have worked hard, and not had the luck to simply cross a border (luck meaning they COULD, rather than it was easy, immigrating across the desert, dealing with rapists, drug lords and violence is not luck() (and I know about open borders, my homeland has an issue with genuine terrorists invading and bombing schoolhouses), is not .. fair. Who gives a poo poo if it's fair? If you don't think that there was a lot of 'luck 'involved in getting citizenship for anyone I don't know what to tell you. quote:But I have a unique perspective, since we managed to immigrate here, after losing a civil war (Biafra), and we managed to get to the middle class without stealing social security numbers or working under the table. You get that working under the table is something that's bad for those workers, right? It's not like "Sweet, I'm under the table", it's "gently caress I have to be under the table so I don't get deported." Right?
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# ? Jul 26, 2014 01:24 |
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Visa lotto? As in the DV lottery lottery? The lines are simply the lines to receive one's Visa. You also never addressed my point about stealing SSNs, which IS a criminal offense, and the fact that while being here illegally is a civil crime, ENTERING the nation illegally IS. And as long as employers have access to the labor supply willing to work below market wages, the market will allow it. It would be like asking union workers to tolerate 'scabs' because they are 'simply willing to work underneath union wages,the union should just deal with it, they are just hardworking folks trying to get buy. US Criminal code posted:"Improper entry by an alien" as it is called, is a violation of Title 8 of the U.S. criminal code punishable by a fine of between $50 and $250 and/or a maximum of six months in jail. The luck point is pretty amusing, since our village had been planning the US immigration effort since the 1950s when we were still a colony of the British, but please, tell me how years of planning, studying, and research is 'luck'.
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# ? Jul 26, 2014 02:03 |
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Ryand-Smith posted:
That anyone has to do that is not fair. I am currently in the middle of the visa application process for my wife.
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# ? Jul 26, 2014 02:23 |
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Ryand-Smith posted:Visa lotto? As in the DV lottery lottery? Yes. The lottery. The thing which is a lottery, which is luck. I'm not sure what's confusing you there. quote:You also never addressed my point about stealing SSNs, which IS a criminal offense, and the fact that while being here illegally is a civil crime, ENTERING the nation illegally IS. I really don't give that much of a poo poo. The social number 'theft' means that they pay money into social security without taking stuff out, for the most part. It's a symptom of a problem, not some devious evil scheme these undocumented aliens came up with because they want to do it that way. Entering the nation illegally is a very minor crime for a reason, because it happens for completely understandable and even laudable reasons. quote:The luck point is pretty amusing, since our village had been planning the US immigration effort since the 1950s when we were still a colony of the British, but please, tell me how years of planning, studying, and research is 'luck'. You had the funds and ability to do that research instead of, say, laboring in a diamond mine all day long while being illiterate. Seriously, stop and think about things for a few minutes. Your family had it tough and overcame things. Does that mean that things would be better if everyone had it as tough as you do? Or if people had it easier than you did? If what you experienced was a long and arduous process, why is it a bad thing to ease that process for other people? Is it just because they're not you, so you don't want things to be better for them because you don't want people who aren't you getting things you didn't?
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# ? Jul 26, 2014 02:43 |
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Ryand-Smith posted:So Destroying children's credit is being a "good neighbor? and just living? I mean, I don't know about you guys but my credit IS how I earn my money, and if someone was to steal my SSN to try and make a better life for themselves, but they destroyed mine, that sure isn't ethical. They only steal SSN's in the first place because they're here illegally, and even then your own article points out that they do it to get jobs, not go on spending sprees. If they're not here illegally, they won't steal SSN's, problem solved. It's also possible to commute crossing the border, but not the theft of an SSN, so that's an argument over application rather than principles. Finally, the fact that they are here illegally is what gets used as leverage to force them to take below market wages. So all you've really got is this sense that things would be unfair. But when you post stuff like this: Ryand-Smith posted:.. I have to question your sense of fairness. "Oh sure, they had to cross a desert and risk rape, death and other forms of violence, but I had to fill out paperwork, and spend money and go to ceremonies!" That makes it sound like they deserve to be here just as much as you, taking a risk like that.
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# ? Jul 26, 2014 04:04 |
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Ryand-Smith is a huge rear end in a top hat; my entire family here in the US were almost deported due to the rank incompetence of INS and we're not going to go around chest thumping about how we beat the system by having then Sen. John Edwards (D-NC) call up the INS who suddenly "found" our documents all of a sudden. It's not like immigration is like going to ben and jerrys and standing in line for a scoop of whatever you want. It's 26+ lines, some of them which give you ice cream quicker than others because you have more money, some that make you go home after you get your first scoop, and others that grant you ice cream if you're lucky.
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# ? Jul 26, 2014 04:34 |
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Peven Stan posted:Ryand-Smith is a huge rear end in a top hat; my entire family here in the US were almost deported due to the rank incompetence of INS and we're not going to go around chest thumping about how we beat the system by having then Sen. John Edwards (D-NC) call up the INS who suddenly "found" our documents all of a sudden. It's not like immigration is like going to ben and jerrys and standing in line for a scoop of whatever you want. It's 26+ lines, some of them which give you ice cream quicker than others because you have more money, some that make you go home after you get your first scoop, and others that grant you ice cream if you're lucky. You should have been part of an important racial voting block, then immigration laws wouldn't apply to you. We prioritize the indios. on the left fucked around with this message at 05:00 on Jul 26, 2014 |
# ? Jul 26, 2014 04:58 |
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Peven Stan posted:Ryand-Smith is a huge rear end in a top hat; my entire family here in the US were almost deported due to the rank incompetence of INS and we're not going to go around chest thumping about how we beat the system by having then Sen. John Edwards (D-NC) call up the INS who suddenly "found" our documents all of a sudden. It's not like immigration is like going to ben and jerrys and standing in line for a scoop of whatever you want. It's 26+ lines, some of them which give you ice cream quicker than others because you have more money, some that make you go home after you get your first scoop, and others that grant you ice cream if you're lucky. Being lucky in this case is not having your paperwork messed up/have the wrong agent go through your paperwork and get deported for that. Congressional hearings on immigration usually has these stories, about families that were separated due to a mistake in the paper work, or having an immigration lawyer lie to them. Then they are bared for 10-20 or for life because of that mistake. So yes, you are lucky. Lucky that you haven't been royally hosed over by a system that would deport you with ease. Hell, we deported U.S. citizens, we can't really say that the system works.
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# ? Jul 26, 2014 05:52 |
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on the left posted:You should have been part of an important racial voting block, then immigration laws wouldn't apply to you. We prioritize the indios. "Heh, get in line like everyone else". *uses literally the quickest visa method that takes under a year to process*
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# ? Jul 26, 2014 05:53 |
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computer parts posted:"Heh, get in line like everyone else". "Oh, so you hosed your way into my country." This thread reminds me, I can't wait until the next time I see the "illegal immigrant in China" meme again; because now I've been one.
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# ? Jul 26, 2014 06:51 |
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computer parts posted:"Heh, get in line like everyone else". Note that you don't have to be anti-immigration to point out the double standards that the US has created for immigrants from Latin American countries vs practically every other country. Maybe the answer to the H1b problem is not to creat more H1b visas, but just to formally allow companies to hire people without doing even basic due dilligence on immigration status and citizenship. Microsoft and other tech companies could invest hundreds of millions into sneaking people into the US and then playing dumb when it comes to where they came from.
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# ? Jul 26, 2014 07:24 |
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on the left posted:Note that you don't have to be anti-immigration to point out the double standards that the US has created for immigrants from Latin American countries vs practically every other country. Hmm yes I suppose that if you ignore that these people are willing to do backbreaking work and live in abject poverty for decades that sure is a double standard.
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# ? Jul 26, 2014 07:33 |
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Can't wait until all the undocumented people are given some form of amnesty to read Ryand-Smith's rants about it.
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# ? Jul 26, 2014 07:57 |
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computer parts posted:Hmm yes I suppose that if you ignore that these people are willing to do backbreaking work and live in abject poverty for decades that sure is a double standard. I don't know why you'd want to encourage that kind of job creation in the US.
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# ? Jul 26, 2014 13:15 |
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Produce Guarantees Citizenship.
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# ? Jul 26, 2014 16:17 |
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# ? Jun 8, 2024 07:16 |
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Petey posted:The documentary is getting a lot of press, in part because it's an amazing story, and in part because it's a sad one, as the victorious Carl Hayden students have been unable to attend college or get jobs due to their status: In what way does winning a robotics competition (with an MIT team as a contestant for dramatic effect) have anything to do with achieving financial success?
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# ? Jul 26, 2014 16:25 |