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"Prisoners have committed crimes against society so they should be made to work to enrich the wealthy." doesn't really make any sense. If it was community labour you might have a point but otherwise it's just an attempt to find something to replace slavery.
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Sep 19, 2016 17:22
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NSW_greens posted:As long as prisoners aren't being raped/tortured etc I am 100% serious when I say I honestly don't give a poo poo if they're made to work. They're rapists, murders, thieves, drug dealers, and other undesirables. Prison isn't supposed to be a holiday camp.
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Sep 19, 2016 17:27
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TomViolence posted:What's your take on the racial disparity in the makeup of the US prison population? The place to tackle the cause of crime is not the prison system. quote:Do you think people deserve to be made to work on pain of physical violence in any other circumstance? No other circumstances spring to mind. quote:Do you think nonviolent drug users deserve this treatment? I don't think using drugs should be illegal, but I don't think prisoners should be treatedly different depending on their offense. The difference in duration is enough. quote:Do you think it's acceptable that private prisons lobby governments at the state and federal level to enforce harsher and harsher sentences to sustain a for-profit prison industry? quote:Do you consider it reasonable that manufacturing jobs that could have been done by citizens who are now instead undercut and unemployed and on the breadline are performed by prison labour for a pittance? It's better for humanity as a whole that prison labor go towards something productive, as opposed to moving rocks from one pile to another all day.
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Sep 19, 2016 17:37
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twodot posted:Even ignoring all the reasons why this is a bad idea and related reasons why the American prison system is bad, how is "made to work" supposed to work even mechanically? Like I get how prison works, society decides you belong in prison, and we spend very significant effort per person in prison making sure they stay in prison and otherwise do the things we want them to do regardless of what they want. If someone doesn't want to pick cotton, what are you going to do to them that will cause them to pick cotton and is less costly than hiring a cotton picker that wants to pick cotton for a wage? Get other prisoners to supervise in exchange for certain privileges? It's worked in the past.
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Sep 19, 2016 17:38
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NSW_greens posted:Statistically certain groups commit more crime. This doesn't mean laws like "don't kill people" are racist. 
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Sep 19, 2016 17:39
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I think it's really good that the prisoners actually are organizing and carrying this out. I hope they succeed, but even more, it's like practicing to be a better citizen. Shame there's not a good way to keep tabs on it, what with the lockdowns and all. The Mother Jones article is saying roughly 24000 inmates in 29 prisons in 12 states. Is there a breakdown of private/public prisons in the strike? Private prison always sounds like the punchline to a joke about "ensuring repeat customers".
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Sep 19, 2016 17:40
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NSW_greens posted:Statistically certain groups commit more crime. This doesn't mean laws like "don't kill people" are racist. Wow. NSW_greens posted:The place to tackle the cause of crime is not the prison system. Ever heard of recidivism? How about rehabilitation? quote:Private prisons are messed up but that's another issue. It's precisely the issue at hand. Considering private prisons exist to make a profit, hitting them where it hurts in terms of their profit making potential neatly confronts and combats the issue of prison privatisation, don't you think?
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Sep 19, 2016 17:43
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NSW_greens posted:Get other prisoners to supervise in exchange for certain privileges? It's worked in the past.
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Sep 19, 2016 17:45
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The first prisoner gets solitary confinement officially. Im sure worse unofficially.
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Sep 19, 2016 22:27
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UU TEE EFF posted:The first prisoner gets solitary confinement officially. Im sure worse unofficially.
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Sep 19, 2016 23:03
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NSW_greens posted:As long as prisoners aren't being raped/tortured etc I am 100% serious when I say I honestly don't give a poo poo if they're made to work. They're rapists, murders, thieves, drug dealers, and other undesirables. Prison isn't supposed to be a holiday camp. Meanwhile, in Norway...
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Sep 19, 2016 23:29
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NSW_greens posted:As long as prisoners aren't being raped/tortured etc I am 100% serious when I say I honestly don't give a poo poo if they're made to work. They're rapists, murders, thieves, drug dealers, and other undesirables. Prison isn't supposed to be a holiday camp. gently caress you. In your stupid loving face.
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Sep 19, 2016 23:46
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twodot posted:I'll acknowledge I'm being a little bit Socratic here, but it's because I suspect NSW_greens is claiming a goal that doesn't exist, which that prisoners working is in itself good, as opposed to a tool to enrich capitalists. If we thought prisoners working was inherently good we would just pay them a wage that would convince them to work, and not put them in the only place where they physically can't work as punishment. Prison is supposed to be (at least partially) a punishment. If you shoot a heap of kids I want you to suffer horribly.
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Sep 20, 2016 00:20
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NSW_greens posted:Prison is supposed to be (at least partially) a punishment. If you shoot a heap of kids I want you to suffer horribly. Very few prisoners on work detail have shot a bunch of kids. edit: Your problem seems to be that you're not thinking about actual, real, existing people in the criminal justice system, but rather the most extreme boogeymen that lurk in the darkest corners of the public imagination, who probably number less than 5% of the total prison population. TomViolence fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Sep 20, 2016 |
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Sep 20, 2016 00:22
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NSW_greens posted:Prison is supposed to be (at least partially) a punishment. If you shoot a heap of kids I want you to suffer horribly. Reg date sep 10 2016
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Sep 20, 2016 00:30
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NSW_greens posted:Prison is supposed to be (at least partially) a punishment. If you shoot a heap of kids I want you to suffer horribly. this post is like being shot repeatedly (because it's bad) Also it's rich that an Aussie would come into a thread like this when his country is 100% more humane than we could ever be
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Sep 20, 2016 00:33
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MODS CURE JOKES posted:Also it's rich that an Aussie would come into a thread like this when his country is 100% more humane than we could ever be You're being ironic right.
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Sep 20, 2016 00:34
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Get outta here wales, this is in america
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Sep 20, 2016 00:53
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TomViolence posted:You're being ironic right. As an absolute value its entirely true Australia is far more humane than America. Australia is still a hosed up racist shithole with appalling treatment of refugees
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Sep 20, 2016 01:12
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Interesting. It's almost monastic - strict but not lovely, very structured. It reminds me of how a lot of classical philosophies emphasize that being human requires training and practice. Is there any good literature on this style of penology?
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Sep 20, 2016 01:14
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NSW_greens posted:Maybe if you don't want to be treated like a prisoner you shouldn't commit crimes. lurk more
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Sep 20, 2016 01:15
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I want to know what he thinks of the prison scene in Wolf of Wall Street.
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Sep 20, 2016 01:39
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I wonder why prisoners should be able to poo poo on lower class free workers by working for almost(or sometimes for real) nothing.
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Sep 20, 2016 02:44
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NSW_greens posted:Statistically certain groups commit more crime. This doesn't mean laws like "don't kill people" are racist. I agree that because poverty is a huge cause of crime we should have universal basic income and a strong social safety net, though, so we're on the same page there. However, as another poster linked, if you actually want to reduce crime recidivism with the prison system itself, the way to do it is to model the system after a successful example like Norway, because the current US system just exacerbates the crime. NSW_greens posted:I don't think using drugs should be illegal, but I don't think prisoners should be treatedly different depending on their offense. The difference in duration is enough. Also, the difference in duration is influenced by race, with people who are black or Latino getting 20% increased sentences, are convicted more often for the same offenses. You also get prominent cases where some homeless guy gets nailed for several years for stealing food from a convenience store, while a convicted rapist gets let out after serving part of a few month sentence. There's also the infamous sentencing difference between crack and cocaine (initially 100:1, now 18:1), despite them being basically the same thing. This indicates that the length of sentencing is often arbitrary, political, racist, or all of the above, and actually has nothing to do with justice, ethics, or preventing crime. As a side note, I highly recommend The New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander if you're interested in hearing the argument for why and how the prison system is racist.
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Sep 20, 2016 03:20
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Uranium Phoenix posted:Some groups are more likely to commit crimes. White people in the US are more likely to be carrying and selling drugs. So then why are black skinned people more likely to be arrested and imprisoned, often with draconian sentencing? As your article says its likely because whites tend to sell more to friends and people they know, as opposed to dealing in more visible locations. If you don't want to go to jail for dealing drugs, just don't deal drugs? quote:I agree that because poverty is a huge cause of crime we should have universal basic income and a strong social safety net, though, so we're on the same page there. quote:However, as another poster linked, if you actually want to reduce crime recidivism with the prison system itself, the way to do it is to model the system after a successful example like Norway, because the current US system just exacerbates the crime. I like the Sheriff Joe approach myself. quote:You think a thing shouldn't be illegal (because, presumably, there is no ethical problem with it), but you're okay with people literally having decades of their lives stripped away for doing the thing you don't actually think is bad? 1. Should be isolated to protect society 2. Should be harsh to act as a deterrent 3. Should, in the later part of the sentence, switch to rehabilitation. I don't think any of the 3 are necessary for someone caught with some pot for personal use. quote:Also, the difference in duration is influenced by race, with people who are black or Latino getting 20% increased sentences, are convicted more often for the same offenses. You also get prominent cases where some homeless guy gets nailed for several years for stealing food from a convenience store, while a convicted rapist gets let out after serving part of a few month sentence. There's also the infamous sentencing difference between crack and cocaine (initially 100:1, now 18:1), despite them being basically the same thing. This indicates that the length of sentencing is often arbitrary, political, racist, or all of the above, and actually has nothing to do with justice, ethics, or preventing crime. Was the homeless guy a serial offender or on parole or something? These kind of stories often sound different when the details come out.
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Sep 20, 2016 15:40
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Lol, this is like a blow-by-blow of nonsense justice talking points. Protip - if people are being arbitrarily imprisoned for ridiculously long sentences for petty crimes, and then are being forced to work for free or pennies for a for-profit enterprise, with the threat of having their living conditions degraded (or worse) if they don't comply, that's a bad thing. Especially when there are corporations with access to politicians who have a vested interest in making the prison population, and therefore their cheap labour pool, bigger. Also as people have said, draconian justice measures don't work for the purpose of actually reducing crime. If you ideologically want to heavily punish and brutalise lawbreakers regardless of status then fine (although I consider you a shithead) but it comes at the price of making society less safe than an evidence based justice model.
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Sep 20, 2016 16:31
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NSW_greens posted:
If you are caught with drugs, your are a dealer in the eyes of the law. Get real lol. There is no distinction. I got caught with about 4 grams of cannabis once, and the cops wrote it up as 36 grams b/c it was in a nalgene container with other heavier objects. Now it's over a weight limit, and I'm a dealer until I capitulate to the legal system or pay a lawyer. Those who can't end up doing labour with murderers and rapists. Try standing in front of a judge to explain the nuance that 'the cops don't understand how to weigh drugs' and that you have much less than they are charging you with. It's basically ignored unless a lawyer says it. Then all of the sudden it's actual. valnas fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Sep 20, 2016 |
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Sep 20, 2016 17:00
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I can see punishment being a legitimate part of the criminal justice system - not as a deterrent, but as part of the rehabilitative process. Basically, prisons should serve as giant Skinner boxes - misbehave and you get zapped, behave and you get free heroin. Repeat until the prisoners are addicted to good behavior.
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Sep 20, 2016 17:27
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NSW_greens posted:Statistically certain groups commit more crime. This doesn't mean laws like "don't kill people" are racist. How about you go to prison. Oh? What's that? You're innocent?
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Sep 20, 2016 17:38
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Rockopolis posted:I can see punishment being a legitimate part of the criminal justice system - not as a deterrent, but as part of the rehabilitative process. 
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Sep 20, 2016 17:51
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Suboxone might be more efficient, actually.
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Sep 20, 2016 18:10
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Rockopolis posted:Suboxone might be more efficient, actually. Actually I think this is such a good idea you should reward yourself with fentanyl.
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Sep 20, 2016 20:07
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I've always been in the belief that the greatest punishment that a Prison can do is the deprivation of time. Something that is absolutely irreplaceable. Of course this has no effect on someone who believes that they had no legal prospects in the first place (and many dont, lack of social net). And that becomes certainly true when they become an ex-con. So they do it again. NSW_greens posted:Social safety net sure. Universal basic income is just another word for "wealth redistribution". I work hard (and to be blunt I am very good at my job) partially because I enjoy what I do but also because the income is nice.UBI means my taxes will go up to fund people who want to lie on the beach all day. I'd rather join the unproductive masses and I imagine many others would do the same. Politicians will promise to increase the UBI to win elections and the whole system will turn to poo poo. nah
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Sep 20, 2016 20:23
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Dude is an obvious troll with his Sheriff Joe comment If he's not trolling he's just an idiot, none of Sheriff Joe's measures work. He's demonstratively the worst in performance as far as prisons go.
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Sep 20, 2016 22:31
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Kind of off topic, but I've got a friend who has been digging into the Maricopa County budget, 23% is categorized as Non Departmental General Operating, with very little detail on what that actually does. The suspicion is that a substantial amount goes to the MCSO, meaning they're far more expensive than we realized.
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Sep 20, 2016 23:42
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wealth redistribution is cool
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Sep 21, 2016 00:10
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Get this: I literally want to redistribute your wealth. The poor work harder than you, comrade. Also, the people who really pay for these social programs are the people who already don't work for a living, so you might as well chill.
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Sep 21, 2016 02:48
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There's nothing more pathetic than the people who say they would cop out of life if they got basic income. They thought they were giving us insight into the laziness and worthlessness of a lot of people, but no, it's just them.
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Sep 21, 2016 03:00
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I'd still do things, they would just benefit me and not society. I wouldn't be a slave to parasites who play videogames and watch TV all day. Sheriff Joe 's policies are generally popular which is why he didn't get booted out years ago.
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Sep 21, 2016 04:03
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valnas posted:If you are caught with drugs, your are a dealer in the eyes of the law. Get real lol. There is no distinction. I got caught with about 4 grams of cannabis once, and the cops wrote it up as 36 grams b/c it was in a nalgene container with other heavier objects. Now it's over a weight limit, and I'm a dealer until I capitulate to the legal system or pay a lawyer. Those who can't end up doing labour with murderers and rapists. The real lesson here is you should always always have representation.
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Sep 21, 2016 04:05
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