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CainFortea posted:Also, I don't recall Picard ever having empathic senses. Even temporarily. G’night everybody.
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Mar 20, 2020 01:54
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CainFortea posted:Also, I don't recall Picard ever having empathic senses. Even temporarily. Most people have empathic senses.
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Mar 20, 2020 01:55
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:G’night everybody. Having empathy is not the same as having an empathic sense. hth. Also, funny how you just ignore the part where you are proven to not understand how cause and effect works. 
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Mar 20, 2020 01:56
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Picard was never the same after going full Locutus and seeing the nightmare scenario of the Federation’s end goal reflected in the Borg Collective.
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Mar 20, 2020 01:58
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CainFortea posted:You do realize that the Maquis were all federation citizens right? Right, and the federation left them out to dry (unless they conceded to the federation’s bureaucratic stipulations), just imagine all the alien civilizations that live in federation territory going through the same land conflicts and aren’t “citizens” of the federation. If the federation treats its own citizens like that, it’s easy to see the cascading effect suffered from non-citizen (i.e. pre-warp civilizations) planets. There was nothing humanitarian about the handling of the massacre of the maquis.
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Mar 20, 2020 02:04
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ruddiger posted:Right, and the federation left them out to dry (unless they conceded to the federation’s bureaucratic stipulations), just imagine all the alien civilizations that live in federation territory going through the same land conflicts and aren’t “citizens” of the federation. If the federation treats its own citizens like that, it’s easy to see the cascading effect suffered from non-citizen (i.e. pre-warp civilizations) planets. They did not leave them out to dry. They were all about helping them move in every way. That's the opposite of leaving them to their own and just abandoning them. If you want to discuss if a government making territorial concessions to end a war, and putting forth a lot of effort to move their dislocated citizens is able to be done rightly, then that's one thing. But what you are saying isn't actually true. As far as the pre-warp civilizations, have there been any instances of pre-warp civilizations existing in the various neutral zones or territorial concessions? Not just made up ones you assume are there, anything from an actual show or movie?
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Mar 20, 2020 02:16
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CainFortea posted:Having empathy is not the same as having an empathic sense. hth. I don't get what you mean by "cause and effect". Picard knew that this guy had had a series of incredible experiences, leading up to and including gazing up at Picard from a hospital bed. Picard can and does conclude that this will spark superstition and mysticism and acts to nip it in the bud.
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Mar 20, 2020 02:51
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Ferrinus posted:I don't get what you mean by "cause and effect". Picard knew that this guy had had a series of incredible experiences, leading up to and including gazing up at Picard from a hospital bed. Picard can and does conclude that this will spark superstition and mysticism and acts to nip it in the bud. Because that isn't what happens. This is what happens: Picard orders the memory wipe. Liko wakes up and says "Picard" They wipe his memory. He gets sent back to the planet and the memory wipe doesn't work Liko finds religion Riker and Troi find out about it and tell Picard Picard seems shocked by this revelation Picard does not somehow deduce that Liko is going to find religion while he's unconscious. Even when he does wake up, all he does is say the name that Liko just heard. He doesn't say with some kind of reverence, he doesn't genuflect or anything. He literally just lays there and says "Picard?!". This combined with his surprise of finding out about the religion thing sorta kills the idea that Picard sleuthed it somehow.
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Mar 20, 2020 02:59
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ruddiger posted:Right, and the federation left them out to dry (unless they conceded to the federation’s bureaucratic stipulations), just imagine all the alien civilizations that live in federation territory going through the same land conflicts and aren’t “citizens” of the federation. If the federation treats its own citizens like that, it’s easy to see the cascading effect suffered from non-citizen (i.e. pre-warp civilizations) planets. They fought a war with the Cardassians, lost, and refused to go back to war for the sake of the people who were behind the new border. The Maquis decided they preferred living in their homes to becoming refugees and being resettled. The Cardassians won the planets they lived on in a war of conquest and the people came with it. That's how conquest works. Picard was sent to remove some of the colonists from the disputed area and they accepted Cardassian rule rather than be resettled. I don't know how citizenship normally works when the land people live on has been disowned. What's weird is how somehow the Federation got roped into policing the Maquis when at that point they were subjects of Cardassia in rebellion, and therefore an internal matter for the Cardassians. I don't think there's any reason they were considered Federation responsibility beyond the general assumption that every nation is an ethnostate and humans under Cardassian rule are somehow Federation responsibility. That seemed like the case with Worf being constantly brought into Klingon Imperial politics. And then after that, it's weird how the Maquis put their rebellion on pause while Cardassia was under attack by the Klingons and Dominion instead of declaring independence.
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Mar 20, 2020 03:51
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CainFortea posted:Because that isn't what happens. This is what happens: It's really weird to use the word "sleuthed" here. Obviously members of a primitive culture are likely to attach religious connotations to fantastic events like laser blasts and teleportations. Picard had every reason to fear that Liko's experiences could spark religious mania. If there wasn't any threat of that, he wouldn't have had any reason to bother to mindwipe the guy in the first place.
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Mar 20, 2020 04:12
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Ferrinus posted:It's really weird to use the word "sleuthed" here. Obviously members of a primitive culture are likely to attach religious connotations to fantastic events like laser blasts and teleportations. Picard had every reason to fear that Liko's experiences could spark religious mania. If there wasn't any threat of that, he wouldn't have had any reason to bother to mindwipe the guy in the first place. Why is it weird? It's what you and SMG claim to have happened, Picard deduced exactly what happened before it happened, and not any other option. The whole point of the prime directive is that starfleet officers can't actually know what would happen should they reveal themselves to pre-warp societies.
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Mar 20, 2020 05:28
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CainFortea posted:Why is it weird? It's what you and SMG claim to have happened, Picard deduced exactly what happened before it happened, and not any other option. The whole point of the prime directive is that starfleet officers can't actually know what would happen should they reveal themselves to pre-warp societies. Because in fact they have pretty good ideas of what will happen. That they'll be mistaken for supernatural beings if they reveal their incredible powers is actually an extremely reasonable working assumption for Starfleet members visiting low-tech societies. The surprising thing isn't that someone got religion but that they got religion despite being mindwiped.
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Mar 20, 2020 06:06
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Fandom psychosis
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Mar 20, 2020 07:11
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good morning, thread
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Mar 20, 2020 15:36
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Ferrinus posted:Because in fact they have pretty good ideas of what will happen. That they'll be mistaken for supernatural beings if they reveal their incredible powers is actually an extremely reasonable working assumption for Starfleet members visiting low-tech societies. The surprising thing isn't that someone got religion but that they got religion despite being mindwiped. There are lots of other ways that could have gone, but it appears you believe that Picard already knew it was going to be religion and not any of the other options.
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Mar 20, 2020 16:13
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CainFortea posted:There are lots of other ways that could have gone, but it appears you believe that Picard already knew it was going to be religion and not any of the other options. Given it would be essentially impossible for him to divine the natural explanation for what he experienced, what's left but supernatural ones? CainFortea posted:Why is it weird? It's what you and SMG claim to have happened, Picard deduced exactly what happened before it happened, and not any other option. The whole point of the prime directive is that starfleet officers can't actually know what would happen should they reveal themselves to pre-warp societies. Picard wouldn't need to deduce exactly what form Liko's faith would have taken to predict that he would search for answers and that he'd have no path to the real ones. He couldn't know exactly what beliefs Liko would form, but he could be confidant they would be mistaken.
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Mar 20, 2020 16:38
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Sir Kodiak posted:Given it would be essentially impossible for him to divine the natural explanation for what he experienced, what's left but supernatural ones? No, it's entirely possible he might have realized that they weren't mintakan people, but people none the less. He also could have decided that no one would ever believe him so he never spoke of it. He could have decided that they were Mintakan from another continent that just looked different. But no, apparently Picard can see the future.
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Mar 20, 2020 17:27
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CainFortea posted:No, it's entirely possible he might have realized that they weren't mintakan people, but people none the less. He also could have decided that no one would ever believe him so he never spoke of it. He could have decided that they were Mintakan from another continent that just looked different. It seems odd to have the only aspect of Liko's experience you address be that Picard et al. look different and not, like, the teleportation, holographic wall, etc. Those are the parts that are harder to explain naturally without considerable knowledge that Liko has no access to. And, of course, whether or not Liko speaks about it doesn't change his personal faith.
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Mar 20, 2020 17:43
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CainFortea posted:No, it's entirely possible he might have realized that they weren't mintakan people, but people none the less. He also could have decided that no one would ever believe him so he never spoke of it. He could have decided that they were Mintakan from another continent that just looked different. You don't need to "see the future" to be able to deduce that someone from a primitive society who sees you shoot lasers and teleport will come up with and spread a supernatural explanation for what they saw. You just need a theory of mind, which Picard has, though it kind of seems like you don't.
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Mar 20, 2020 18:41
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Previously, on Star Trek: The Next Generation: The basic premise of the episode is that Picard is trying to eradicate a religion. He begins by deleting a man’s basic faith with brainwashing techniques, then resorts to other methods when the brainwashing fails. What he’s doing is not good (bad). Cainfortea: “Actually, it’s not brainwashing; Picard is using ‘selective memory editing techniques’ to scrub ‘cultural contamination’ from the man’s brain. That’s distinct from brainwashing because.... Furthermore, Picard was merely erasing the man’s memory of the experience of having interacted with god-aliens, and Picard had no way of knowing for sure whether the man’s experience would lead to any belief that the experience occurred. The elimination of the man’s belief is therefore merely the inevitable but technically unintentional byproduct of eliminating whole strata of thought, feeling, experience, and so-on - in much the same way that, when we shoot someone with a gun, we do not strike specific individual cells of the body. When we target the organs of a person and pull the trigger, the exact outcome is outside of our control, and we are not responsible. So Picard was not, initially, striving to eradicate a religion. The fully intentional eradication began several minutes later.” And now, the conclusion: That’s dumb, mate.
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Mar 21, 2020 12:09
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https://twitter.com/i/status/1240155777874214914
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Mar 21, 2020 14:02
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So I'm watching the drug episode "Symbiosis". Picard responds to a distress signal and finds an entire planet of opioid addicts hooked and exploited by the neighboring interplanetary pharmaceutical company. They repeatedly beg for medicine to help with their withdrawal symptoms, as the pharmaceutical company has stopped shipping. Dr. Crusher offers to manufacture an entire global supply of Space-Lofexidine to ease the addicts' suffering as they go through detox, because that's trivially easy with replicators - but Picard denies it. The addicts' call for help pretty obviously opens up the Prime Directive's "distress call" loophole, but the episode makes it very clear that Picard is nonetheless denying aid to 'teach the addicts a lesson'. The most curious and disturbing thing in the epiode is the parallel explicitly drawn between drugs and financial aid. Picard argues that the Ornarans will become addicted to Federation handouts, with a logic identical to that of Tasha Yar's infamous anti-drug lesson: Crusher: When the Felicium runs out, the people of Ornara will suffer horrible withdrawal pains. Picard: No doubt, but they will pass. Crusher: That seems so cruel. We could have made their burden easier. Picard: Could we have? Perhaps in the short term. But to what end? ... History has proved again and again that whenever mankind interferes with a less developed civilization, no matter how well intentioned that interference may be, the results are invariably disastrous. Tasha: On my home planet, there was so much poverty and violence, that for some the only escape was through drugs. Wesley: How can a chemical substance provide an escape? Tasha: It doesn't, but it makes you think it does. You have to understand, drugs can make you feel good. They make you feel on top of the world. You're happy, sure of yourself, in control. ... Until the drug wears off. Then you pay the price. Before you know it, you're taking the drug not to feel good, but to keep from feeling bad. Wesley: And that's the trap? Tasha: All you care about is getting your next dosage. Nothing else matters. By arguing that a short-term alleviation of suffering will lead to a long-term dependence on handouts, Picard is drawing an obvious parallel between the Federation and the evil interplanetary pharmaceutical company. So: why does Picard see the Federation as inherently exploitative? What would they be demanding in return for healthcare? SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Mar 22, 2020 |
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Mar 22, 2020 21:47
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I don't know if we had a very advanced understanding of how to deal with drug addiction in the 1990s and I think this episode likely reflects that. I'll happily put forward here though that Picard is majorly in the wrong.
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Mar 22, 2020 22:27
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reignofevil posted:I don't know if we had a very advanced understanding of how to deal with drug addiction in the 1990s and I think this episode likely reflects that. Dr. Crusher says outright that her detox drug is non-addictive, so there's no obvious downside. Picard isn't against the treatment because he doesn't understand drugs, but because he doesn't want to disrupt the titular 'symbiosis' between the pharmaceutical company and the addicts: Crusher: You don't think drug addiction and exploitation is sufficient cause to do something? Picard: This situation has existed for a very long time. These two societies are intertwined in a symbiotic relationship. Crusher: With one society profiting at the expense of the other. Picard: That's how you see it. Picard then makes it clear that he doesn't believe in this 'symbiosis' either, but he nonethless insists that the aliens have reaped what they've sown as a result of their "cultural values". Another notable detail: in this episode, as in the episode "First Contact" (where the aliens are "pre-warp" but capable of space travel), no effort is made to erase anybody's memories or anything as drastic as that. It's evident that the Prime Directive 'scales' based on the level of technology, so people from societies with more technology are afforded slightly better treatment under Federation law. People from societies with less technology get the ol' drug-and-probe. Cavemen can probably just be killed with impunity.
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Mar 22, 2020 23:07
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It's another one of those vassal state situations. The enterprise could help the addict country in the short term, but then unless the Federation took up the position of that planet's new dealer overlord, then once the temporary supply ran out, it'd be back to business as usual. Either the addicts become dependent on the Federation or they go back to the dealers. In that episode, Picard makes the very conscious choice to disrupt the relationship between the addict planet and the dealer planet as much as possible without actually violating the Prime Directive. He refuses to repair the spaceship when he could've, giving the addicts some kind of chance to quit cold turkey and not remain enslaved. It's his response after the dealer aliens point out that the Federation is obliged not to interfere.
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Mar 23, 2020 02:19
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SlothfulCobra posted:It's another one of those vassal state situations. The enterprise could help the addict country in the short term, but then unless the Federation took up the position of that planet's new dealer overlord, then once the temporary supply ran out, it'd be back to business as usual. Either the addicts become dependent on the Federation or they go back to the dealers. Well no; that's misunderstanding the situation. First, there is no 'temporary supply'. The Enterprise alone could easily print enough nonaddictive anti-withdrawal drugs for the entire planet. Though it would be expensive (thousands of teacups, at least), it's a tiny fraction of what their ship is capable of. There's no dependence on a nonaddictive substance, and why would the Federation demand anything in return? Second of all, there is no "business as usual". The episode begins with both planets already on the verge of a crisis: the pharmaceutical company's ships are failing, and only the addicts had the knowledge to fix them. But the addicts have been drugged up for so long that that knowledge is evidently lost. (It's a very odd conceit, but we have to go with it.) This means that Picard already hosed up and broke the Prime Directive at the very start of the episode, by freely offering some electromagnetic coils - under the faulty assumption that, because these particular aliens have access to spaceships, they must be 'technologically advanced' and therefore spiritually enlightened. So Picard does not make a "very conscious choice to disrupt the relationship between the addict planet and the dealer planet". He chooses to stop actively helping the dealers, and instead does nothing while their victims suffer. And that's just one point where Picard's ideology breaks down. In defiance of Picard's Federation logic, the pharmaceutical company planet was actually 'technologically inferior' to the exploited Onarans. They were simply far more advanced at capitalism: Data: Beginning several thousand years ago, the two worlds took different paths. Ornara became technologically sophisticated, Brekka did not. Then, two hundred years ago, Ornara was stricken by a devastating plague. ... The cure was found in a plant indigenous to only Brekka, and which resisted all attempts at cultivation on Ornara. Riker: In any case, a trading situation developed which still exists. Crusher: A nice arrangement, for the Brekkians. The Ornarans were the ones who invented space travel, but they ended up unwittingly conquered by the 'jealous primitives' they contacted. It's implied that the Ornarans got the plague when they first visited Brekka. Is that what Picard truly fears? (Oh wait, yep: that's the plot of that other drug episode, "The Game".) SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 03:54 on Mar 23, 2020 |
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Mar 23, 2020 03:45
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"Space, the final frontier. These are the voyages of the starship Enterprise. Its continuing mission: to patroniz-uh I mean explore new worlds, to seek out new life and new opportunities for moralizing, to boldly narc where no lib has narced before!"
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Mar 23, 2020 07:22
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How the gently caress did this thread get like 700 new posts while I wasn't looking? Wasn't this the MS Paint Picard thread? 
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Mar 23, 2020 09:44
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This was the 'star trek is all hosed up' thread and the answer is we filled it with this subforums primary export, pointless semantic bickering in between moralistic transcript quoting and the occasional low blow! It's great fun!
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Mar 23, 2020 14:16
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Captain Picard is grumpy all the time because his uniform didn't fit well to the point of damaging his spine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2o77i74T48&t=13s
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Mar 24, 2020 02:47
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Fun facts from “The Game”: - On the topic of replicant personhood, Wesley uses a medical ‘neurological behaviour program’, hooked up to an optical sensor, to create a human emulator. The human emulator is effectively a brain-in-a-jar deal, and it’s is clearly pretty simple to generate. Wesley tests drugs on it. - Sonic showers evidently use replicated water, and are therefore another example of ridiculous wastefulness.
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Mar 24, 2020 11:57
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Fun facts from “The Game”: -there is no subtext you could dream up that could make that episode worse than just watching it. -it's wasteful from our 21st century perspective, but not from their 24th infinite energy perspective. It's just recycling on an atomic level. Wasteful would be schlepping across the galaxy looking for comets to melt just so you could make tea. But we've been over and over this, so let's just say we're both right.
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Mar 24, 2020 12:36
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reignofevil posted:This was the 'star trek is all hosed up' thread and the answer is we filled it with this
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Mar 25, 2020 04:47
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SlothfulCobra posted:Captain Picard is grumpy all the time because his uniform didn't fit well to the point of damaging his spine. Fun fact: Pat Stew really did gently caress up his back thanks to those uniforms. Same thing with Jeri Ryan on Voyager with those catsuits. Trek costume designers should be sued for assault at this point.
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Mar 25, 2020 11:06
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nine-gear crow posted:Fun fact: Pat Stew really did gently caress up his back thanks to those uniforms. Same thing with Jeri Ryan on Voyager with those catsuits. roddenberry demanded the spandex uniforms all be a size too small, so that they would stretch to perfect smoothness when worn
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Mar 27, 2020 19:00
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You'd think they could just crank up the heat on those ships so they could walk around nude all the time.
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Mar 27, 2020 21:42
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Finger Prince posted:-it's wasteful from our 21st century perspective, but not from their 24th infinite energy perspective. It's just recycling on an atomic level. Wasteful would be schlepping across the galaxy looking for comets to melt just so you could make tea. But we've been over and over this, so let's just say we're both right. If they had infinite energy, they wouldn’t need to mine for resources. What you mean is that they have a finite surplus of energy, and they’re wasting it on a gimmicky device inferior to today’s indoor plumbing.
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Mar 28, 2020 18:08
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https://i.imgur.com/uC11CgN.gifv
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Mar 28, 2020 19:09
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:If they had infinite energy, they wouldn’t need to mine for resources. Effectively infinite. They mine more because they're expansionist. Infinite growth requires infinite resource extraction. If they stopped expanding, building new starships, space stations, weapons, colonies, replicators, holodecks, warp drives, etc., they wouldn't need to mine any more Dilithium.
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Mar 28, 2020 19:13
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Finger Prince posted:Effectively infinite. They mine more because they're expansionist. Infinite growth requires infinite resource extraction. If they stopped expanding, building new starships, space stations, weapons, colonies, replicators, holodecks, warp drives, etc., they wouldn't need to mine any more Dilithium. Whether you think it's good or bad the Federation does have the political unification of the entire galaxy under its flag as one of its stated goals. They may not vaporize you if you refuse like the Klingons do, but they will constantly nag you about it. I wouldn't be surprised if there are several member states that joined just to shut-up the constant badgering. "Yes I will join, just stop ringing my doorbell."
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Mar 29, 2020 06:32
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