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Spooky Hyena posted:It doesn't matter, you're dodging the question. If Westminster renegue on their promises, is that a cause for concern? I suppose if it revokes the Scotland Act 2012 it might be.
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Sep 24, 2014 22:49
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jre posted:A pretty big fringe at the moment, or I know a lot of yes loonies Not as awful as the "Boycott these Scottish companies that didn't back independence" post that's being pasted around. Yeah, let's boycott successful Scottish business with significant exports. That'll really help Scotland flourish.
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Sep 24, 2014 22:51
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Rain Temple posted:Not as awful as the "Boycott these Scottish companies that didn't back independence" post that's being pasted around. Yeah, let's boycott successful Scottish business with significant exports. That'll really help Scotland flourish. That list is pretty amazing, some of the discussion that went with it as well was  . Should we buy local produce then ?  No the farmers are all tory bastards !http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/09/21/scottish-independence-the-45_n_5857906.html jre fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Sep 24, 2014 |
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Sep 24, 2014 22:54
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Pissflaps posted:I suppose if it revokes the Scotland Act 2012 it might be. So that would be the only thing that would, in your opinion, rightfully invite repercussions on Westminster?
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Sep 24, 2014 22:55
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Spooky Hyena posted:So that would be the only thing that would, in your opinion, rightfully invite repercussions on Westminster? It's up to you what you protest about - it doesn't have to be a legitimate complaint. I'd be interested to see some polling data on Scotland's appetitie for a new referendum. I suspect it falls far short of 45%.
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Sep 24, 2014 22:57
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Pissflaps posted:It's up to you what you protest about - it doesn't have to be a legitimate complaint. I'm not asking about what's a legitimate protest or not. Would a repeal of the Scotland Act 2012 be the only thing which would invite non-"loonies" to be apprehensive about Westminster rule? Rain Temple posted:Not as awful as the "Boycott these Scottish companies that didn't back independence" post that's being pasted around. Yeah, let's boycott successful Scottish business with significant exports. That'll really help Scotland flourish. Not as awful as the orange order's claims that an independent Scotland would be a Vatican puppet state.
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Sep 24, 2014 23:02
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Pissflaps posted:It's up to you what you protest about - it doesn't have to be a legitimate complaint. Speaking of polls which type turned out to be most accurate in the end, Phone polls or online ?
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Sep 24, 2014 23:02
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Spooky Hyena posted:I'm not asking about what's a legitimate protest or not. Would a repeal of the Scotland Act 2012 be the only thing which would invite non-"loonies" to be apprehensive about Westminster rule? Your whole approach to this is to assume that the promise of more powers, and the threat that they may not materialise, was what people based their vote on. You've taken this cue from the SNP leadership. I don't buy it.
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Sep 24, 2014 23:04
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Spooky Hyena posted:Not as awful as the orange order
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Sep 24, 2014 23:05
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jre posted:Speaking of polls which type turned out to be most accurate in the end, Phone polls or online ? I'm not sure but they all ended up saying the same thing in the end so I guess neither? Or both.
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Sep 24, 2014 23:05
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Spooky Hyena posted:
Link ? asking because they already claim that scotland is a Vatican puppet state. "Unseen Fenian hand"
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Sep 24, 2014 23:06
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Pissflaps posted:Your whole approach to this is to assume that the promise of more powers, and the threat that they may not materialise, was what people based their vote on. You've taken this cue from the SNP leadership. No, I'm just trying to figure out why you dismiss concerns like that out of hand. Since you don't want to answer the questions I'm asking, care to explain your feelings on the subject?
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Sep 24, 2014 23:07
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Spooky Hyena posted:Not as awful as the orange order's claims that an independent Scotland would be a Vatican puppet state.
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Sep 24, 2014 23:09
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Rain Temple posted:No it's worse because boycotting businesses is something that could actually have an effect on things. I'd be very surprised if anyone listens to what the orange order says except the orange order Catholics kinda have to, if only to know where not to be on a given day.
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Sep 24, 2014 23:11
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Spooky Hyena posted:No, I'm just trying to figure out why you dismiss concerns like that out of hand. Since you don't want to answer the questions I'm asking, care to explain your feelings on the subject? I think I've already told you. More powers are on there way courtesy of the Scotland Act 2012. The 'vow' timetable is being adhered to and will deliver further powers. Neither will be enough for nationalists, but will be enough for the 55% who voted to limit Holyrood's powers.
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Sep 24, 2014 23:11
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Is there any way to make sure these people are Yes voters?
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Sep 24, 2014 23:12
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Rain Temple posted:No it's worse because boycotting businesses is something that could actually have an effect on things. I'd be very surprised if anyone listens to what the orange order says except the orange order Yeah okay, an unofficial boycott of supermarkets is despicable and hugely damaging but the orange order doesn't mean anything in modern Scotland 
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Sep 24, 2014 23:13
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Is there any way to make sure these people are Yes voters? There's no way to be sure the majority are even Scottish to be fair. lovely online petition and all that.
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Sep 24, 2014 23:17
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Why do the nationalists keep endlessly going on about the government not implementing further devolution? It's really demented just how certain they are that the government is trying to cheat them out of this thing which they have committed to, scheduled, etc. And I'm sure that when the government does end up devolving more powers nothing will satisfy them anyway. It's basically Yes supporters, who wanted independence, making all the noise about devolution when it wasn't enough for them in the first place since they voted Yes after all. If you voted Yes then you weren't one of the No voters who might have changed their vote on that basis to begin with; although it seems the nationalists are really exaggerating how important this issue was to No voters too.
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Sep 24, 2014 23:22
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jre posted:Speaking of polls which type turned out to be most accurate in the end, Phone polls or online ? I think that Grindr poll came closest in the end.
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Sep 24, 2014 23:23
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Mukip posted:Why do the nationalists keep endlessly going on about the government not implementing further devolution? It's really demented just how certain they are that the government is trying to cheat them out of this thing which they have committed to, scheduled, etc. They are absolutely desperate to say I told you so, to the point where they are wishing for something against their own interests. G1mby posted:I think that Grindr poll came closest in the end. welp.
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Sep 24, 2014 23:25
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Mukip posted:Why do the nationalists keep endlessly going on about the government not implementing further devolution? It's really demented just how certain they are that the government is trying to cheat them out of this thing which they have committed to, scheduled, etc. It's not all or nothing, people are allowed to have different views of varying importance. I don't see how that's hard for you to understand.
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Sep 24, 2014 23:27
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Spooky Hyena posted:Yeah okay, an unofficial boycott of supermarkets is despicable and hugely damaging but the orange order doesn't mean anything in modern Scotland Just a few days ago people were sneering that the Orange Order was a spent force withering away to nothing and that their march had to be bulked up with busloads from England - now, though, they're a threat of such mass that they will destabilise the nation? Make your minds up, Yes. kapparomeo fucked around with this message at 23:31 on Sep 24, 2014 |
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Sep 24, 2014 23:29
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kapparomeo posted:Just a few days ago people were sneering that the Orange Order was a spent force withering away to nothing and that their march had to be bulked up with busloads from England - now, though, they're a threat that will destabilise the nation? Make your minds up, Yes. Quote the first one. Because if I remember correctly, that was entirely the view of the no-supporters in this thread minimizing the orange order's marches for no.
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Sep 24, 2014 23:31
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Mukip posted:although it seems the nationalists are really exaggerating how important this issue was to No voters too. I've noticed this too. If I'd wanted Holyrood to have extra powers I would have voted yes and I can't be the only one. Wasn't there some statistic showing most no voters had made there choice before the exta powers were talked about? Can't remember
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Sep 24, 2014 23:35
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Rain Temple posted:I've noticed this too. If I'd wanted Holyrood to have extra powers I would have voted yes and I can't be the only one. Wasn't there some statistic showing most no voters had made there choice before the exta powers were talked about? Can't remember http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/news/292749-ashcroft-poll-no-voters-would-always-have-rejected-independence/ Which isn't a good thing, it strongly suggests that the no voters were avoiding critical introspection on the issue. It also shows that the swing toward yes actually increased as information from both campaigns were made more widely available.
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Sep 24, 2014 23:40
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Rain Temple posted:I've noticed this too. If I'd wanted Holyrood to have extra powers I would have voted yes and I can't be the only one. Wasn't there some statistic showing most no voters had made there choice before the exta powers were talked about? Can't remember Most people made their minds up years ago. The campaign was only ever about the middle 20-25% of "undecided" voters ever. Spooky Hyena posted:http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/news/292749-ashcroft-poll-no-voters-would-always-have-rejected-independence/ I would argue that it's the people on the fence who were swaying to emotive arguments are exactly the people who lack "critical introspection" on the matter. Lord of the Llamas fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Sep 24, 2014 |
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Sep 24, 2014 23:40
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Spooky Hyena posted:http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/news/292749-ashcroft-poll-no-voters-would-always-have-rejected-independence/ Although more No voters it seems were from wealthier (higher educated) demographics. Granted, for No voters who saw themselves as being British as much as Scottish they probably weren't interested in weighing up the arguements for independence and just rejected it out of hand; but there's nothing wrong with being grounded like that.
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Sep 24, 2014 23:47
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Mukip posted:Although more No voters it seems were from wealthier (higher educated) demographics. Granted, for No voters who saw themselves as being British as much as Scottish they probably weren't interested in weighing up the arguements for independence and just rejected it out of hand; but there's nothing wrong with being grounded like that. There is, rejecting one side out of hand isn't a good-faith argument. I'd think that was obvious, but given your posts here...
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Sep 24, 2014 23:49
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Is there any way to make sure these people are Yes voters? I'm pretty sure that exact petition came up before and we dismissed it because it was extremely unlikely that all the German, American, Portuguese, etc. signatures did or could vote Yes.
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Sep 24, 2014 23:54
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Spooky Hyena posted:There is, rejecting one side out of hand isn't a good-faith argument. I'd think that was obvious, but given your posts here... You don't have to weigh up every arguement in a neutral and laborous manner. Chucking babies off skyscrapers is wrong; I must admit I have not bothered to weigh up the pros of cons of doing so but it doesn't mean I lack critical introspection to form a snap judgement on the matter. For Scottish people who feel more Scottish than British then the subject of independence is debatable; but for Scottish people who feel equally British and Scottish I assume they are mostly going to be fundamentally uninterested in independence since they see the whole of the UK as their country and wouldn't be amenable to splitting it up. Some people can't be bought on subjects like this and that's fine.
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Sep 24, 2014 23:57
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Mukip posted:but for Scottish people who feel equally British and Scottish I assume they are mostly going to be fundamentally uninterested in independence since they see the whole of the UK as their country. Actually that depends with certain people. A lot of people would actually still call themselves British and Scottish regardless of the result and some have even voted yes for their cultural, historical and geographical sense of britshness rather then the politcal union. I know a few folk who think like this so it's hard to tell if people who call themselves British first/equally are going to just automatically go no (Though that is the likely outcome anyways)
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Sep 25, 2014 00:30
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serious gaylord posted:You keep calling people smug. I don't think you know what this word means. It was very possible for all the polls to be wrong in the same direction because, unlike in the US, Scotland wasn't exactly a fertile polling ground beforehand and the weights could've been way off. I didn't trust the polls enough to bet on the race even though I put six figures down in '08 for a race that had exactly the same margins. In fact I'm kind of suspicious that the final morning's poll, the one that nailed the 54-46 result, was a lucky outlier because none of the other ones from 1-2 days earlier came closer than three points (?) with no intervening news. If I'm wrong, this whole thing was actually a pretty big win for poll science. Having said that, if Salmond was "confident" of a win, you really didn't want him in charge anyway.
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Sep 25, 2014 00:32
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The Yes vote was not necessarily a vote for further devolution (within the UK). The No vote was not necessarily a vote for the status quo. I don't understand how people are equating all Yes voters with rabid independence or nothing nationalists and all No voters with "everything is fine as it is, god save the queen". The independence referendum is over, we got a result and we should accept it - most people do. That doesn't mean we have to retain a tribalistic devotion to agreeing on everything with others who voted the same way as us.
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Sep 25, 2014 00:36
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Spooky Hyena posted:Yeah, I for one am shocked that there isn't real retrospection coming into this thread from the independence supporters. The fact that it's increasingly become an echochamber is unrelated, I guess.
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Sep 25, 2014 00:39
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Is there any way to make sure these people are Yes voters? A lot of them are in America.
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Sep 25, 2014 00:45
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Pissflaps posted:Neither will be enough for nationalists, but will be enough for the 55% who voted to limit Holyrood's powers. But we (Scotland) were promised more powers if we voted No. So by voting No we were voting to increase Holyroods powers. Unless you were being sarcastic?
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Sep 25, 2014 01:57
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duckmaster posted:But we (Scotland) were promised more powers if we voted No. So by voting No we were voting to increase Holyroods powers. Anything less than voting for independence is voting to limit Holyrood's powers. Those voting No made no statement one way or the other about far below independence they wanted Holyrood's powers to be. They didn't vote to increase Holyrood's powers, and they didn't vote to decrease them either.
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Sep 25, 2014 04:48
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How about we just let people who know jackshit simmer in their own ignorance; while we Scots go about the very important and immediate business of building a new country regardless of the outcome that is and will be more socially just for all? EDIT: And we're NOT loving nationalists. It's been enough of that bullshit. Coohoolin fucked around with this message at 06:33 on Sep 25, 2014 |
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Sep 25, 2014 06:27
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Coohoolin posted:EDIT: And we're NOT loving nationalists. It's been enough of that bullshit. You are loving nationalists and it's cute how you keep futilely denying it.
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Sep 25, 2014 06:46
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