The Less Wrong Mock Thread: The Big Yudkowsky

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SneezeOfTheDecade: Feb 6, 2011; gettin' covid all
over your posts

Not MOR-related, but: Having read through the thread, the concept of Roko's Basilisk continues to bother me, but not for the reasons they want it to.

The Basilisk's premise seems to be that an AI with the capability to improve the lot of humankind and the desire to implement that improvement ("friendly") will, in order to ensure that it gets completed as soon as possible, create an arbitrarily large number of perfect simulations of humans, living their lives before the AI's creation, and then submit any of the simulations who don't donate to the AI's creators' funding to arbitrarily large amounts of torture as soon as they choose not to donate. And since a person thus simulated can't be certain that they aren't a simulation rather than the original, they should donate to avoid being tortured.

But a perfect simulation of me must be indistinguishable from me except that it is virtual and I am not, and so necessarily the simulation must be as sapient and free-willed as I am. Otherwise it's not a perfect simulation. If that's the case, and the Basilisk sees no problem with torturing that simulation, then it sees no problem with torturing intelligent, sapient life (since definitionally the only difference between the simulation and the real thing is that one has a physical existence) - unless it values the original sapient life over the simulated sapient life.

In which case one of two things must be true:

* the Basilisk values non-artificial/non-computer life more highly than artificial/computer-based life, in which case it can't use its own benefit (being created earlier) to justify the harm that the experiment does to the psyches of the people who know it will simulate them and thus shouldn't be able to run the simulations; or

* the Basilisk is actually a hostile - at best a neutral - AI, not a friendly one.

Either way, it fails at its job.

(And anyway, it would be much more efficient from a financial standpoint to simply bribe one of the programmers to set COST_OF_BEING_A_BASILISK = 9999 in the genetic algorithm.)

# ? Jul 27, 2014 18:43

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# ? Jun 9, 2024 01:28

Control Volume: Dec 31, 2008

have any of the less wrong people murdered someone because there was very high chance that he was a simulation

# ? Jul 27, 2014 18:50

Lottery of Babylon: Apr 25, 2012; STRAIGHT TROPIN'

Namarrgon posted:

I'll be honest: I actually like his magic setting better than the original. I think the Merlin's Interdict (can only learn more powerful spells from others or make them yourselves, not learn them from books) or the mechanics behind the killing curse or the horcrux are pretty neat.

A setting is only as good as the stories it lets you tell.

Harry Potter's magic system isn't elaborate, but it does its job. It provides a backdrop for a story about kids growing up at a magic school and fighting monsters, and it gets out of the way enough that the story is always about the characters without getting bogged down in the magic version of technobabble. In the Methods of Rationality, the magic system isn't there to be used or to tell stories. It's there to give an eleven-year-old boy an something to circlejerk with Literally Hitler about.

In the actual Harry Potter series, the purpose of horcruxes is to keep the bad guy around and to give the heroes a bunch of tasks to overcome in order to fight him. In the Methods of Rationality, the purpose of horcruxes is for Literally Hitler to say "Horcruxes are stupid" and for Harry to reply "Indeed, as are all people who believe in souls", and for both to nod sagely in mutual superiority over everyone else.

Let's see the mechanics of the killing curse, as explained in the latest chapter:

Wizard Hitler posted:

"There is a limitation... to the Killing Curse. To cast it once... in a fight... you must hate enough... to want the other dead. To cast Avada... Kedavra twice... you must hate enough... to kill twice... to cut their throat with your own hands... to watch them die... then do it again. Very few... can hate enough... to kill someone... five times... they would... get bored." The Defense Professor breathed several times, before continuing. "But if you look at history... you will find some Dark Wizards... who could cast the Killing Curse... over and over. A nineteenth-century witch... who called herself Dark Evangel... the Aurors called her A. K. McDowell. She could cast the Killing Curse... a dozen times... in one fight. Ask yourself... as I asked myself... what is the secret... that she knew? What is deadlier than hate... and flows without limit?"

A second level to the Avada Kedavra spell, just like with the Patronus Charm...

Hitler's Disciple posted:

Harry had read once, somewhere, that the opposite of happiness wasn't sadness, but boredom; and the author had gone on to say that to find happiness in life you asked yourself not what would make you happy, but what would excite you. And by the same reasoning, hatred wasn't the true opposite of love. Even hatred was a kind of respect that you could give to someone's existence. If you cared about someone enough to prefer their dying to their living, it meant you were thinking about them.

This is some pretty tenuous logic already. One could equally say that the opposite of North is not South, for that is also in the direction of a pole, but East. Or perhaps Up, because East and South, like North, are still compass directions. Or perhaps Right Here, because Up, East, and South, like North, are all directions pointing away from here. Or perhaps Monkeycheese, because Here, Up, East, and South all have to do with physical location, which makes them too similar to North to truly be its opposite, whereas Monkeycheese is completely unrelated.

I can at least see how the "opposite of happiness is boredom" thing would appeal to a man like Yudkowsky who has never worked a day in his life, has never experienced hardship or loss, has all his money donated to him, and whose greatest struggle is working up the energy to write lovely Harry Potter fanfiction.

Google tells me that the love/indifference, happiness/boredom thing is a quote from a self-help book. Wikipedia tells me that the book's author runs "an online nutritional supplements company" that claims its products will dramatically improve your memory and reaction time almost immediately, and that it claims its products are used by "17 world champions", but that it has produced zero evidence to support either claim. Also he's been caught buying positive reviews on Amazon for his self-help books. Apparently, Yudkowsky found those self-help books worthy of being a major focus of his philosophy and magic system.

Hitler's Disciple posted:

It had come up much earlier, before the Trial, in conversation with Hermione; when she'd said something about magical Britain being Prejudiced, with considerable and recent justification. And Harry had thought - but not said - that at least she'd been let into Hogwarts to be spat upon.

Not like certain people living in certain countries, who were, it was said, as human as anyone else; who were said to be sapient beings, worth more than any mere unicorn. But who nonetheless wouldn't be allowed to live in Muggle Britain. On that score, at least, no Muggle had the right to look a wizard in the eye. Magical Britain might discriminate against Muggleborns, but at least it allowed them inside so they could be spat upon in person.

What is deadlier than hate, and flows without limit?

"Indifference," Harry whispered aloud, the secret of a spell he would never be able to cast; and kept striding toward the library to read anything he could find, anything at all, about the Philosopher's Stone.

Ah, of course, it all makes sense! ...except it really doesn't. In terms of the scale being discussed here, the Killing Curse is a relatively close-range spell. You can't use it to kill someone who's out of sight out of mind a continent away. It's not something you can passively, inadvertently cast without even realizing you're doing it just by not paying attention. It's not a grenade you can lob over a wall at a potential room full of faceless unseen people.

If you're using the Killing Curse on someone, you're looking at that one person clearly and choosing to cast it on that one person. And the Harry Potter universe is full of spells that can completely incapacitate a target without killing them, most of which are far easier than the Killing Curse; if you choose to Avada Kedavra someone, you've decided not just that you want them out of your way at the moment but specifically that you want them dead.

It's a bizarre shoehorned-in metaphor for immigration of all things, and it doesn't really make sense even within the context of the fiction. And since this is Yudkowsky's writing we're talking about, it has zero purpose to the story other than giving Harry an excuse to monologue here.

Besesoth posted:

Not MOR-related, but: Having read through the thread, the concept of Roko's Basilisk continues to bother me, but not for the reasons they want it to.

The Basilisk's premise seems to be that an AI with the capability to improve the lot of humankind and the desire to implement that improvement ("friendly") will, in order to ensure that it gets completed as soon as possible, create an arbitrarily large number of perfect simulations of humans, living their lives before the AI's creation, and then submit any of the simulations who don't donate to the AI's creators' funding to arbitrarily large amounts of torture as soon as they choose not to donate. And since a person thus simulated can't be certain that they aren't a simulation rather than the original, they should donate to avoid being tortured.

But a perfect simulation of me must be indistinguishable from me except that it is virtual and I am not, and so necessarily the simulation must be as sapient and free-willed as I am. Otherwise it's not a perfect simulation. If that's the case, and the Basilisk sees no problem with torturing that simulation, then it sees no problem with torturing intelligent, sapient life (since definitionally the only difference between the simulation and the real thing is that one has a physical existence) - unless it values the original sapient life over the simulated sapient life.

In which case one of two things must be true:

* the Basilisk values non-artificial/non-computer life more highly than artificial/computer-based life, in which case it can't use its own benefit (being created earlier) to justify the harm that the experiment does to the psyches of the people who know it will simulate them and thus shouldn't be able to run the simulations; or

* the Basilisk is actually a hostile - at best a neutral - AI, not a friendly one.

Either way, it fails at its job.

(And anyway, it would be much more efficient from a financial standpoint to simply bribe one of the programmers to set COST_OF_BEING_A_BASILISK = 9999 in the genetic algorithm.)

You're forgetting that the AI is ~~infinitely~~ 3^^^^^3 powerful and ~~infinitely~~ 3^^^^^3 good. If the AI can usher in its own existence even one second sooner, then that's an extra 3^^^^^3 utilitarian happiness-units it can produce. Which means that even if it needs to create 3^^^^3 utilitarian suffering-units by torturing countless simulated people, it's all for the greater good because the positive numbers are bigger than the negative numbers. COST_OF_BEING_A_BASILISK = 9999 won't stop the AI if it thinks the reward of being a basilisk is 10000.

The problem is that most of us don't think you can just linearly add and subtract happiness/suffering that way. To us, if you shoot one kid's dad and give ten thousand other kids free ice cream, you're still a bad person. But Yudkowsky thinks that beep boop good-units and bad-units cancel each other out.

The other problem is that Yudkowsky thinks that future events can directly affect the past because he's broken his brain with Timeless Decision Theory nonsense. The truth is that they can't, and even in Yudkowsky's own weird TDT logic, the future can only affect the past if the past contains an infinitely powerful perfect AI simulator, which it doesn't. But since Yudkowsky doesn't understand any of the words he spews out, he doesn't notice that sort of problem and thinks an AI would, once created, try to rewrite history to make itself be created sooner. It wouldn't and couldn't because that's dumb.

Lottery of Babylon fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Jul 27, 2014

# ? Jul 27, 2014 20:00

SerialKilldeer: Apr 25, 2014

So Yudkowsky's philosophy of ethics is like this comedy article?
http://www.cockeyed.com/magic/bad5.php

As for the Basilisk, I understand it's going to give everyone who does contribute to it eternal life in a volcano lair with a harem of 3 ^^^^^^^^^ 72 catgirls and prevent them from getting any dust specks in their eyes (even though volcano lairs surely get a bit dusty), and that will totally cancel out all the eternal torture. And it only tortures people because it's really sad that, every moment it doesn't exist, it can't save people from a sad, mortal, catgirl-less existence.

# ? Jul 27, 2014 20:36

Literally Kermit: Mar 4, 2012; t

SerialKilldeer posted:

So Yudkowsky's philosophy of ethics is like this comedy article?
http://www.cockeyed.com/magic/bad5.php

As for the Basilisk, I understand it's going to give everyone who does contribute to it eternal life in a volcano lair with a harem of 3 ^^^^^^^^^ 72 catgirls and prevent them from getting any dust specks in their eyes (even though volcano lairs surely get a bit dusty), and that will totally cancel out all the eternal torture. And it only tortures people because it's really sad that, every moment it doesn't exist, it can't save people from a sad, mortal, catgirl-less existence.

I realize that you were just banging out a random number, but I was curious on calculating how many catgirls that was (as I am not a clever mathematician), plugged it into Google and got as a first result:

The Quran 3:72 posted:

And a faction of the People of the Scripture say [to each other], "Believe in that which was revealed to the believers at the beginning of the day and reject it at its end that perhaps they will abandon their religion"

And it made me :aaaaa:

for a moment. Not sure why.

Anyway, back to calculating catgirls.

# ? Jul 27, 2014 20:52

SerialKilldeer: Apr 25, 2014

Actually I chose 72 as the exponent for a reason: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houri#72_virgins

# ? Jul 27, 2014 21:04

Literally Kermit: Mar 4, 2012; t

SerialKilldeer posted:

Actually I chose 72 as the exponent for a reason: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houri#72_virgins

Oh, yeah.

Still it is far too many catgirls a volcano lair can safely hold. :colbert:

# ? Jul 27, 2014 21:11

Morkyz: Aug 6, 2013

Lottery of Babylon posted:

This is some pretty tenuous logic already. One could equally say that the opposite of North is not South, for that is also in the direction of a pole, but East. Or perhaps Up, because East and South, like North, are still compass directions. Or perhaps Right Here, because Up, East, and South, like North, are all directions pointing away from here. Or perhaps Monkeycheese, because Here, Up, East, and South all have to do with physical location, which makes them too similar to North to truly be its opposite, whereas Monkeycheese is completely unrelated.

I can at least see how the "opposite of happiness is boredom" thing would appeal to a man like Yudkowsky who has never worked a day in his life, has never experienced hardship or loss, has all his money donated to him, and whose greatest struggle is working up the energy to write lovely Harry Potter fanfiction.

Google tells me that the love/indifference, happiness/boredom thing is a quote from a self-help book. Wikipedia tells me that the book's author runs "an online nutritional supplements company" that claims its products will dramatically improve your memory and reaction time almost immediately, and that it claims its products are used by "17 world champions", but that it has produced zero evidence to support either claim. Also he's been caught buying positive reviews on Amazon for his self-help books. Apparently, Yudkowsky found those self-help books worthy of being a major focus of his philosophy and magic system.

"The opposite of hate is indifference" isn't an EY circlejerk thing, it's actually a pretty common truism.

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/ewieselperilsofindifference.html

Elie Wiesel is a holocaust survivor, so he knows enough to talk about hate vs indifference.

You can argue it isn't true, but it isn't just something some rear end in a top hat nerd made up.

# ? Jul 27, 2014 21:18

SerialKilldeer: Apr 25, 2014

If indifference and not hate is the key to the killing curse, shouldn't a few million people drop dead every day because a wizard doesn't care about them? Or is it a "don't think about an elephant" thing, where your enemy keels over dead if you avoid giving them any thought?

# ? Jul 27, 2014 21:33

Morkyz: Aug 6, 2013

SerialKilldeer posted:

If indifference and not hate is the key to the killing curse, shouldn't a few million people drop dead every day because a wizard doesn't care about them? Or is it a "don't think about an elephant" thing, where your enemy keels over dead if you avoid giving them any thought?

No, because no one said the magic words or waved a wand.

# ? Jul 27, 2014 21:36

pentyne: Nov 7, 2012

quote:

"There is a limitation... to the Killing Curse. To cast it once... in a fight... you must hate enough... to want the other dead. To cast Avada... Kedavra twice... you must hate enough... to kill twice... to cut their throat with your own hands... to watch them die... then do it again. Very few... can hate enough... to kill someone... five times... they would... get bored." The Defense Professor breathed several times, before continuing. "But if you look at history... you will find some Dark Wizards... who could cast the Killing Curse... over and over. A nineteenth-century witch... who called herself Dark Evangel... the Aurors called her A. K. McDowell. She could cast the Killing Curse... a dozen times... in one fight. Ask yourself... as I asked myself... what is the secret... that she knew? What is deadlier than hate... and flows without limit?"

A second level to the Avada Kedavra spell, just like with the Patronus Charm...

Huh, that name seems familiar.

http://negima.wikia.com/wiki/Evangeline_A.K._McDowell

quote:

Evanjerin Atanashia Katerin Makudaueru), listed as Evangeline A.K. McDowell is a fictional character in the anime and manga series Negima!: Magister Negi Magi created by Ken Akamatsu. The 26th student in Japanese alphabetical order of class 2/3-A, she is actually a physically ageless centuries-old vampire cursed (Infernus Scholasticus (School Hell)) 15 years ago to remain at the school by Nagi Springfield, the father of her teacher and her disciple Negi Springfield. Initially an antagonist for Negi due to his father's actions, she eventually becomes an important teacher and guide for the young mage and his allies as they fight and search for his missing father. However, Eva remains a cruel, powerful mage in her own right, yet with the kindhearted sensitivities of her former human life. She later reappears in a semi sequel of Negima, UQ Holder! from Ken Akamatsu, still being a immortal Vampire where she take care of Negi's grandson after the death of his parent

You got your 'looks like a child but is really 600 years anime love interest for a harem anime' mixed with 'super smart and obscenely rational boy wizard dismantles the rationale behind a 1000s year old magic society because he's just so rationally smart'

So now LW is branching out to start seriously critiquing how some magical anime works? I can't wait for his "Sailor Moon and the MOR"

# ? Jul 27, 2014 22:03

Strategic Tea: Sep 1, 2012

pentyne posted:

Huh, that name seems familiar.

http://negima.wikia.com/wiki/Evangeline_A.K._McDowell

You got your 'looks like a child but is really 600 years anime love interest for a harem anime' mixed with 'super smart and obscenely rational boy wizard dismantles the rationale behind a 1000s year old magic society because he's just so rationally smart'

So now LW is branching out to start seriously critiquing how some magical anime works? I can't wait for his "Sailor Moon and the MOR"

Oh for gently caress's sake. I read 'Dark Evangel' and though it sounded like anime's special brand of dumb sounding language-butchery. But A. K. McDowell sounds like a real person. Maybe someone who went on trial in the 19th century? Or a historical occultist?

Or not :negative:

# ? Jul 27, 2014 22:22

Lottery of Babylon: Apr 25, 2012; STRAIGHT TROPIN'

Morkyz posted:

"The opposite of hate is indifference" isn't an EY circlejerk thing, it's actually a pretty common truism.

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/ewieselperilsofindifference.html

Elie Wiesel is a holocaust survivor, so he knows enough to talk about hate vs indifference.

You can argue it isn't true, but it isn't just something some rear end in a top hat nerd made up.

Yeah, the love/indifference part on its own is a real thing. But the happiness/boredom part only comes from some rear end in a top hat nerd who also paired it with the love/indifference thing, so that's definitely where Yudkowsky is getting it from. The indifference part definitely makes sense in the right context, but the boredom half is pure dumbass sheltered nerd bullshit, and pairing the two together cheapens the indifference part. Applying it to the Killing Curse also just isn't a good metaphor; indifference kills, but not because when people duel each other they load their guns with indifference bullets.

pentyne posted:

Huh, that name seems familiar.

http://negima.wikia.com/wiki/Evangeline_A.K._McDowell

You got your 'looks like a child but is really 600 years anime love interest for a harem anime' mixed with 'super smart and obscenely rational boy wizard dismantles the rationale behind a 1000s year old magic society because he's just so rationally smart'

So now LW is branching out to start seriously critiquing how some magical anime works? I can't wait for his "Sailor Moon and the MOR"

Hahaha even in his big dramatic speech where he reveals the great secret of the killing curse he still feels the need to reference creepy nerd anime.

Imagine if real writers felt the need to do that. "No, Luke. I am your father. And my waifu is Sakura-chan."

# ? Jul 27, 2014 22:33

Moatman: Mar 21, 2014; Because the goof is all mine.

Strategic Tea posted:

Oh for gently caress's sake. I read 'Dark Evangel' and though it sounded like anime's special brand of dumb sounding language-butchery. But A. K. McDowell sounds like a real person. Maybe someone who went on trial in the 19th century? Or a historical occultist?

Or not

I thought it was a not very clever joke about J.K. Rowling :shrug:

# ? Jul 27, 2014 22:37

Anticheese: Feb 13, 2008; $60,000,000 sexbot

For all the spurious logic thrown out over the killing curse, I'm surprised Yud didn't just give Harry a gun.

# ? Jul 27, 2014 22:51

Patter Song: Mar 26, 2010; Hereby it is manifest that during the time men live without a common power to keep them all in awe, they are in that condition which is called war; and such a war as is of every man against every man.; Fun Shoe

Honestly, I've begun to suspect that there's one way to redeem HPMOR. We've all commented on how Harry is basically the villain. What if it turns out...that Harry is basically the villain, and it's intentional rather than an artifact of lovely writing?

# ? Jul 27, 2014 23:14

pentyne: Nov 7, 2012

Patter Song posted:

Honestly, I've begun to suspect that there's one way to redeem HPMOR. We've all commented on how Harry is basically the villain. What if it turns out...that Harry is basically the villain, and it's intentional rather than an artifact of lovely writing?

There are still enough other artifacts of lovely writing to fill the Smithsonian.

# ? Jul 27, 2014 23:41

Pidmon: Mar 18, 2009; NO ONE risks painful injury on your GREEN SLIME GHOST POGO RIDE.

No one but YOU.

Dno't forget that he buys The Discworld Luggage on day one, there's an ancient spell to turn your wand into a nonlethal lightsaber, he's inserted fans' names into the story as random characters...

# ? Jul 28, 2014 02:03

Lottery of Babylon: Apr 25, 2012; STRAIGHT TROPIN'

I entered a random chapter number into the HPMOR URL. This is what I was rewarded with.

Yudkowsky posted:

MY LITTLE PONY: FRIENDSHIP IS SCIENCE

"Applejack, who told me outright that I was mistaken, represents the spirit of... honesty! " The dusky pony raised her head even higher, her mane blowing like a wind about the night sky of her long neck, her eyes blazing like stars. "Fluttershy, who approached the manticore to find out about the thorn in its paw, represents the spirit of... investigation! Pinkie Pie, who realized that the awful faces were just trees, represents the spirit of... formulating alternative hypotheses! Rarity, who solved the serpent's problem represents the spirit of... creativity! Rainbow Dash, who saw through the false offer of her heart's desire, represents the spirit of... analysis! Marie-Susan, who made us convince her of our theories before she funded our expedition, represents the spirit of... peer review! And when those Elements are ignited by the spark of curiosity that resides in the heart of all of us, it creates the seventh element - the Element of Sci-"

The blast of power that came forth was like a wind of brilliant lava, it caught Marie-Susan before the pony could even flinch, and stripped her flesh from her bones and crumbled her bones to ash before any of them had the chance to rear in shock.

From the dark thing that stood in the center of the dais where the Elements had shattered, from the seething madness and despair surrounding the scarce-recognizable void-black outline of a horse, came a voice that seemed to bypass all ears and burn like cold fire, sounding directly in the brain of every pony who heard:

Did you expect me to just stand there and let you finish?

The screams began, then, echoing around that ancient and abandoned throne room; and Applejack fell to her forelocks beside the still-glowing ash that was all that remained of Marie-Susan's bones, looking too shattered even to sob.

Twilight Sparkle stared at the horror that had once been Nightmare Moon, racking her brains with frantic desperation and realizing that it was over, they were doomed, it was hopeless without Marie-Susan; everyone knew that no matter how honest, investigating, skeptical, creative, analytic, or curious you were, what really made your work Science was when you published your results in a prestigious journal. Everyone knew that...

After that it turns into Naruto fanfiction.

# ? Jul 28, 2014 02:14

Mors Rattus: Oct 25, 2007; FATAL & Friends
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#1 Builder
2014-2018

Of course he hates peer review.

I actually am not surprised by this. This guy has a view of empiricism and reason that would be right at home in the 1200s. If you can reason it out by pure logic, it must be correct! Having to empirically prove your findings is then vulgar.

# ? Jul 28, 2014 02:24

Sham bam bamina!: Nov 6, 2012; ƨtupid cat

pentyne posted:

Huh, that name seems familiar.

pentyne posted:

'looks like a child but is really 600 years anime love interest for a harem anime'

Why is this familiar to you? :crossarms:

# ? Jul 28, 2014 03:53

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

SerialKilldeer posted:

If indifference and not hate is the key to the killing curse, shouldn't a few million people drop dead every day because a wizard doesn't care about them? Or is it a "don't think about an elephant" thing, where your enemy keels over dead if you avoid giving them any thought?

In the real Harry Potter, if you hate someone enough to kill them, and you're a powerful enough wizard, and you point a wand at them and say "avadra kedavra" then they die.
In Methods of Rationality, it turns out that the hating part doesn't apply, you can just not care about that person and it works just as well.

And apparently it has to work that way because you couldn't possibly hate six people enough to kill them, because you'd get bored. :psyduck:

# ? Jul 28, 2014 05:15

Patter Song: Mar 26, 2010; Hereby it is manifest that during the time men live without a common power to keep them all in awe, they are in that condition which is called war; and such a war as is of every man against every man.; Fun Shoe

Tiggum posted:

And apparently it has to work that way because you couldn't possibly hate six people enough to kill them, because you'd get bored.

Hey, it's not like people categorize other humans into groups and wish for the death of every individual member of that group, right?

# ? Jul 28, 2014 05:38

SolTerrasa: Sep 2, 2011

Mors Rattus posted:

Of course he hates peer review.

I actually am not surprised by this. This guy has a view of empiricism and reason that would be right at home in the 1200s. If you can reason it out by pure logic, it must be correct! Having to empirically prove your findings is then vulgar.

It helps that he's had his papers rejected from every recognized journal and conference that he's ever submitted to.

"Am I so out of touch? No. It's the scientific method which is wrong."

# ? Jul 28, 2014 05:41

Wanamingo: Feb 22, 2008; by FactsAreUseless

Lottery of Babylon posted:

This is some pretty tenuous logic already. One could equally say that the opposite of North is not South, for that is also in the direction of a pole, but East. Or perhaps Up, because East and South, like North, are still compass directions. Or perhaps Right Here, because Up, East, and South, like North, are all directions pointing away from here. Or perhaps Monkeycheese, because Here, Up, East, and South all have to do with physical location, which makes them too similar to North to truly be its opposite, whereas Monkeycheese is completely unrelated.

Unless I'm misremembering that intro to logic class I took ages ago, you get the opposite of something just by putting the word not in front of it. So in this case the opposite of north is not north, or in other words, anything else. Then the opposite of loving something is to not love it, and the opposite of being bored is to not be bored. Real simple stuff, and maybe you'd disagree on a philosophical level but as far as logic is concerned there's no need to overcomplicate things.

For somebody who loves logic so much, you'd think Yudkowsky would know this. Unless... he doesn't actually know what he's talking about? :eek:

# ? Jul 28, 2014 05:44

pentyne: Nov 7, 2012

Sham bam bamina! posted:

Why is this familiar to you?

http://negima.wikia.com/wiki/Evangeline_A.K._McDowell

quote:

Age

10 years (physically); over 700 years (chronologically); random years (mentally)

Fan wikis are nothing if not obsessively detailed.

# ? Jul 28, 2014 06:30

Swan Oat: Oct 9, 2012; I was selected for my skill.

Lottery of Babylon posted:

I entered a random chapter number into the HPMOR URL. This is what I was rewarded with.

After that it turns into Naruto fanfiction.

What on earth...

# ? Jul 28, 2014 07:00

pentyne: Nov 7, 2012

Swan Oat posted:

What on earth...

quote:

OMAKE FILES #4:

THE OTHER FANFICTIONS
YOU COULD'VE BEEN READING

Okay... so this is other stuff that LW wants to write about and inject his own brand of pseudo-intellectualism.

quote:

"The Enemy is very wise," said Gandalf, "and weighs all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice. But the only measure that he knows is desire, desire for power; and so he judges all hearts. Into his heart the thought will not enter that any will refuse it, that having the Ring we may seek to destroy it -"

Ugh, LOTR. Well that's not too bad, but its still going to be "I know better then everyone else" bullshit.

quote:

"I had the strangest dream," Lucy said, her voice even quieter, "where we didn't have to organize any creatures or convince them to fight, we just walked into this place and the lion was already here, with all the armies already mustered, and he went and rescued Edmund, and then we rode alongside him into this tremendous battle where he killed the White Witch..."

"Did the dream have a moral?" said Peter.

"I don't know," said Lucy, blinking and looking a little puzzled. "In the dream it all seemed pointless somehow."

"I think maybe the land of Narnia was trying to tell you," said Susan, "or maybe it was just your own dreams trying to tell you, that if there was really such a person as that lion, there'd be no use for us."

Wow, I can't imagine anything more poo poo then a devout atheist writing Narnia fanfiction.

quote:

Twilight Sparkle stared at the horror that had once been Nightmare Moon, racking her brains with frantic desperation and realizing that it was over, they were doomed, it was hopeless without Marie-Susan; everyone knew that no matter how honest, investigating, skeptical, creative, analytic, or curious you were, what really made your work Science was when you published your results in a prestigious journal. Everyone knew that...

Haha, wow, gently caress YOU. This is literally tv show for young girls twisted to show how my logical and rational arguments are superior to any amount of outside criticism.

quote:

Hundreds had been killed, half the buildings wrecked, almost the whole village of Beisugakure had been destroyed.

"You think the Kyubey is hiding inside Naruto?" Sakura said. A moment later, her brain automatically went on to fill in the obvious implications of the theory. "And the software conflict between their existences is why he acts like a gibbering idiot half the time, but can control a hundred Kage Bunshin. Huh. That makes... a lot of sense... actually..."

Sasuke gave her the brief, contemptuous nod of someone who had figured all this out on his own, without anyone else needing to prompt him.

"Ano..." said Sakura. Only years of sanity exercises channeled her complete screaming panic into pragmatically useful policy options. "Shouldn't we... tell someone about this? Like, sometime in the next five seconds?"

I impose rules of logic and rationality onto a massive Japanese media franchise that exists soley for the point of big dramatic fights that end with the power of friendship.

quote:

"It is," I said, feeling helpless about my inability to explain things to Richard. He didn't understand the thrill of being a polymath, the new worlds that were opening up to me. "I didn't share our research with anyone -"

"But you wanted to," said Richard.

I didn't say anything, but I knew that the look on my face said it all.

"God, Anita, you've changed," said Richard. He seemed to slump in on himself. "Do you realize that the monsters are joking about Blake numbers, now? I used to be your partner in everything, and now - I'm just another werewolf with a Blake number of 1."

I don't know what this is a reference too but it's probably poo poo as well.

quote:

"I am sick of this!" shouted Liono. "Sick of doing this every single week! Our species was capable of interstellar travel, Panthro, I know the quantities of energy involved! There is no way you can't build a nuke or steer an asteroid or somehow blow up that ever-living idiot's pyramid!"

"Fabulous secret knowledge was revealed to me on the day I held aloft my magic book and said: By the power of Bayes's Theorem! "

I am the core of my thoughts
Belief is my body
And choice is my blood
I have revised over a thousand judgments
Unafraid of loss
Nor aware of gain
Have withstood pain to update many times
Waiting for truth's arrival.
This is the one uncertain path.
My whole life has been...
Unlimited Bayes Works!

As the table decked in blue began to applaud him, as he approached the dread table where he would spend the next seven years, Kvothe was already wincing inside, waiting for the inevitable; and the inevitable happened almost at once, exactly as he had feared it, before he'd even had a chance to sit down properly.

"So!" an older boy said with the happy expression of someone who's thought of something terribly clever. "Kvothe the Raven, huh?"

TENGEN TOPPA GURREN RATIONALITY 40K

I have a truly marvelous story for this crossover which this margin is too narrow to contain.

"Immortality. Perfect health. Awakening psychic powers. Easy enough to survive on animal blood once you do it. Even the beauty, Edward, there are people who would give their lives to be pretty, and don't you dare call them shallow until you've tried being ugly. Do you think I'm scared of the word 'vampire'? I'm tired of your arbitrary deontological constraints, Edward. The whole human species ought to be in on your fun, and people are dying by the thousands even as you hesitate."

The gun in his lover's hand was cold against his forehead. It wouldn't kill him, but it would disable him for long enough

I feel like the part of my brain that learned science in the public education system and then in college just refused to parse this bullshit so I can only assume is the most masturbatory fanfic poo poo imaginable.

quote:

Aladdin's face was wistful, but determined, as the newly minted street urchin addressed the blue being of cosmic power for one last time, prepared to leave behind the wealth and hope he had so briefly tasted for the sake of his friend. "Genie, I make my third wish. I wish for you to be -"

Princess Jasmine, who had been staring at this with her mouth open, not quite believing what she was seeing, just barely managed to overcome her paralysis and yank the lamp out of the boy's hand before he could finish the fatal sentence.

"Excuse me," said Jasmine. "Aladdin, my darling, you're cute but you're an idiot, do you know that? Did you not notice how once Jafar got his hands on this lamp, he got his own three wishes - oh, never mind. Genie, I wish for everyone to always be young and healthy, I wish nobody ever had to die if they didn't want to, and I wish for everyone's intelligence to gradually increase at a rate of 1 IQ point per year." She tossed the lamp back to Aladdin. "Go back to what you were doing."

OH COME THE gently caress ON YOU IMPOSSIBLE rear end in a top hat ALL KIDS ENTERTAINMENT MEDIA DON'T HAVE TO ADHERE TO SOME SUPREME RATIONAL IDEAL.

There's a bunch of words about Hamlet, but I refuse to entertain this rear end in a top hat trying to "better" The Bard's work.

quote:

(HonoreDB has now extended this to a complete ebook)
(entitled "A Will Most Incorrect to Heaven: The Tragedy of Prince Hamlet and the Philosopher's Stone")
(available for $3 at makefoil dot com)
(yes, really)

loving die in a fire

Next we have
- Moby Dick
- Alice in Wonderland
- The Matrix

...This is literally a cult with this rear end in a top hat Yudkowsky at the head. He has fed his brand of bullshit to the internet masses, inspired a horde of followers, and now has a fanbase that will fanatically and agressively defend any retarded idea that comes out of the shrunken atrophied blood deprived mass of muscle called his brain. They have bankrolled his living situation, offering him places to live for a month, wholeheartedly reject anything he disagrees with, and I assume this story will end with him surrounded by a bunch of dead Asian pre-teens while the FBI/ATF raids his "Rational Fortress" and him offering his wrists up expecting to win the forthcoming court proceedings by stunning the juries and judges into absolute submission from his infallible BAAAAAAAYEEEEEES logic.

# ? Jul 28, 2014 07:30

Sham bam bamina!: Nov 6, 2012; ƨtupid cat

pentyne posted:

http://negima.wikia.com/wiki/Evangeline_A.K._McDowell

Fan wikis are nothing if not obsessively detailed.

Uh, that's not what I was talking about. It was that you were familiar with the creepy anime character in the first place.

For God's sake, that "random years (mentally)" bit is just gross.

Sham bam bamina! fucked around with this message at 08:44 on Jul 28, 2014

# ? Jul 28, 2014 08:36

Wales Grey: Jun 20, 2012

Sham bam bamina! posted:

Uh, that's not what I was talking about. It was that you recognized the name of the creepy anime character in the first place. For God's sake, "random years (mentally)" is just gross.

are you really asking why/how a goon knows the names of characters from some anime?

the answer is :spergin:

# ? Jul 28, 2014 08:45

Lemur Crisis: May 6, 2009; What will you do?
Where can you run?

I like the Moby-Dick one:

quote:

MOBY DICK AND THE METHODS OF RATIONALITY

(as related by Eneasz on LessWrong)

"Revenge?" said the peg-legged man. "On a whale? No, I decided I'd just get on with my life."

Because, yeah, clearly you guys are above engaging in a monomaniacal pursuit of a metaphorical white whale and losing touch with reality. :ironicat:

# ? Jul 28, 2014 09:16

chaosbreather: Dec 9, 2001; Wry and wise,
but also very sexual.

pentyne posted:

(HonoreDB has now extended this to a complete ebook)
(entitled "A Will Most Incorrect to Heaven: The Tragedy of Prince Hamlet and the Philosopher's Stone")
(available for $3 at makefoil dot com)
(yes, really)

When I first scanned over this I subconsciously categorised it as LISP, from the abundance of parentheses and the lack of general cogency.

# ? Jul 28, 2014 10:14

Antivehicular: Dec 30, 2011; I wanna sing one for the cars
That are right now headed silent down the highway
And it's dark and there is nobody driving And something has got to give

pentyne posted:

Ugh, LOTR. Well that's not too bad, but its still going to be "I know better then everyone else" bullshit.

In case you were worried about why that bit was less insufferable than the rest, Google reveals that it's an actual quote from Fellowship of the Ring. This may also explain why it possesses actual character voice and why its complexity eventually resolves into a sensible idea, instead of it just being another transparent Yudkowsky-alike spouting the usual :words:

.

I also just realized that the peer review pony in that awful MLP thing is named "Marie-Susan," a.k.a. "Mary Sue," presumably as in the term that adolescent (or mentally adolescent) fanfiction writers use to refer to original characters that aren't theirs and are therefore worthy of scorn. Way to stick it to the man, Yudkowsky! Are you and Aaron "science fetishist who scorns peer review because that poo poo is hard" Diaz besties yet?

# ? Jul 28, 2014 10:18

hirvox: Sep 8, 2009

pentyne posted:

I don't know what this is a reference too but it's probably poo poo as well.

Anita Blake, one of the long-running Mary Sues. The joke is that she fucks a lot of supernatural beings, and that the closest ones tend to be the most powerful.

# ? Jul 28, 2014 10:51

Peel: Dec 3, 2007

The LotR quote is pretty anti-MOR anyway. This is a story about how we should industrially murder unicorns for life-extension purposes, do you really think they'd refuse the One Ring? Sauron was spot-on.

# ? Jul 28, 2014 10:53

FROOOOOOOOG: Jan 28, 2009

pentyne posted:

quote:
I wish for everyone's intelligence to gradually increase at a rate of 1 IQ point per year."

Add IQ to the List of Things Yudkowsky Doesn't Understand, I guess.

# ? Jul 28, 2014 11:21

Peel: Dec 3, 2007

The Yud's rivals also have views on what the opposite of love is.

# ? Jul 28, 2014 14:57

SerialKilldeer: Apr 25, 2014

Tiggum posted:

In Methods of Rationality, it turns out that the hating part doesn't apply, you can just not care about that person and it works just as well.

I'm imagining two enemy wizards pointing their wands at each other going "I don't care about you!" "I don't care about you MORE! Avada Kedavra!" like some weird kids' game.

# ? Jul 28, 2014 15:22

NGDBSS: Dec 30, 2009

Antivehicular posted:

I also just realized that the peer review pony in that awful MLP thing is named "Marie-Susan," a.k.a. "Mary Sue," presumably as in the term that adolescent (or mentally adolescent) fanfiction writers use to refer to original characters that aren't theirs and are therefore worthy of scorn. Way to stick it to the man, Yudkowsky! Are you and Aaron "science fetishist who scorns peer review because that poo poo is hard" Diaz besties yet?

When did this happen with Aaron Diaz? The last time I paid attention to him was when he was writing a somewhat pretentious webcomic.

# ? Jul 28, 2014 15:42

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# ? Jun 9, 2024 01:28

Don Gato: Apr 28, 2013; Actually a bipedal cat.; Grimey Drawer

NGDBSS posted:

When did this happen with Aaron Diaz? The last time I paid attention to him was when he was writing a somewhat pretentious webcomic.

http://dresdencodak.com/2011/04/19/dark-science-09/

Diaz fetishizes science except for when it comes to doing actual science with peer review papers and such, which he regards as a popularity contest that holds science back.

# ? Jul 28, 2014 16:52

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > General Bullshit > The Less Wrong Mock Thread: The Big Yudkowsky

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