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Let's not forget that there could be conflicts of religious sect with other ME countries and the fact that that are oppressive monarchies/oligarchies etc etc
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# ? Sep 4, 2015 14:54 |
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# ? Jun 8, 2024 08:17 |
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willemw posted:It's in the Dublin Regulation. Well not literally, but de facto the first country the refugee enters will be Greece or Italy. The Dublin Regulation is not very good :/ Yes but it doesn't say anything about stopping refugees from arriving into EU.
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# ? Sep 4, 2015 14:55 |
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Disco De Soto posted:Better to be a burden than dead. Quite a few of us "burdens" turn out to be productive members of society. I said move from a safe place. Are you intentionally not understanding what I'm saying? People in safe countries and in safe camps are not about to die, lest they go to Sweden. DarkCrawler posted:So again, where in any of the international agreements signed by European nations is refugee acceptance and taking care of refugees based on geographic proximity? Is Iran really forced to accept a million refugees from Iraq and Afghanistan because it happens to border two countries where Western powers started two incredibly irresponsible wars that has driven instability in the region for over a decade? Is that fair? Is that how international co-operation should work according to any of the legal framework on the subject? Aren't say, U.S. or Great Britain a little bit more responsible of the refugees in Iran then Iran? Is "welp I guess you're poo poo out of luck since you happen to border that country, maybe if they had touched base somewhere else you'd be fine" really the best way to solve the refugee crisis? What if say something opens in Latakia and Syrians start to swarm to Cyprus - is it Cyprus's turn to take a million Syrians because they are close? How does this work, exactly? Of course, anyone can request asylum from anywhere, but if you are interested in the "first country of asylum" principle in international law, where it came from and how it has developed over time, you can read more about it here. Cyprus can't take 1 000 000 million refugees, so I'm not sure what you're asking would work. I also agree U.S and Great Britain (and Russia who also arm belligerents), who enjoy destabilizing regions, should take far more responsiblity in trying to help with the situations they help to create. Airlifting the destabilized population to said countries probably wouldn't work or be possible, unfair or not though :\
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# ? Sep 4, 2015 15:03 |
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DarkCrawler posted:Yes but it doesn't say anything about stopping refugees from arriving into EU. It doesn't, but the Schengen Agreement stipulates that the external border of the Schengen area is strictly guarded, which is what you're seeing - or not seeing depending on how you feel about the situation - today. In theory countries like Greece and Italy should do a triage and see if the person is a refugee or a migrant and process their application. If they move on to another Schengen-country they can be sent back to the first country. (Which Belgium once did: they sent asylum seekers back to Greece. This resulted in fines from European Court of Human Rights for both Belgium and Greece because the conditions for asylum seekers in Greece are that terrible). I think/hope the the Dublin Regulation is on it's way out however, because the policies that Merkel's Germany is following are quite different
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# ? Sep 4, 2015 15:09 |
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There are really only three options, and only one isn't terrible:
There's a lot more where this is coming from when climate change really starts setting in, and I can't imagine having millions of poorly integrated refugees feeling unwelcome around is going to be very cost-effective on a 20-30 years time scale to begin with. Have there been any attempts to model the cost of not solving this problem?
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# ? Sep 4, 2015 15:17 |
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Zodium posted:There are really only three options, and only one isn't terrible: No because climate change isn't real la la la la la.
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# ? Sep 4, 2015 15:18 |
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Ligur posted:I said move from a safe place. Are you intentionally not understanding what I'm saying? People in safe countries and in safe camps are not about to die, lest they go to Sweden. I'm saying you are focusing on the wrong issue here. These people are not risking death or worse just because they can't get a job at home, or want to meet Swedish babes. Yes, some people will use this crisis as an opportunity to move to a better country, but I don't think it's horrible if we also accidentally help them while trying to the refugees.
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# ? Sep 4, 2015 15:21 |
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computer parts posted:I wonder who will be the first person in Europe to use "Welfare Queens" unironically in reference to refugees. A representative of one of our parties in the coalition government (of Finland) used the term "quality of life surfers" unironically.
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# ? Sep 4, 2015 15:27 |
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How common are deaths like the large group found in Austria? That incident sounds like what some immigrants traversing through Mexico have dealt with via "coyotes" who steal their cash and ditch the locked cargo vehicle in the Chihuahua desert.
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# ? Sep 4, 2015 15:30 |
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Disco De Soto posted:I'm saying you are focusing on the wrong issue here. These people are not risking death or worse just because they can't get a job at home, or want to meet Swedish babes. Personally I hope all the money set aside for asylum policy goes towards refugees rather than making middle class west africans a bit happier.
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# ? Sep 4, 2015 15:32 |
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Blue Star Error posted:Personally I hope all the money set aside for asylum policy goes towards refugees rather than making middle class west africans a bit happier. I think that everyone wants to spend the money on the people who need it most. This is not the same as saying that we can't help anyone because some of them don't actually need help.
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# ? Sep 4, 2015 15:37 |
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hardly any west africans come to europe outside of france wtf dude
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# ? Sep 4, 2015 15:38 |
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there's a problem of human trafficking of nigerians in particular, but that is hardly their fault and they are hardly middle class
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# ? Sep 4, 2015 15:39 |
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Ligur posted:I said move from a safe place. Are you intentionally not understanding what I'm saying? People in safe countries and in safe camps are not about to die, lest they go to Sweden. Those camps are squalid, and people freeze to death every winter. No parent puts their child in water unless it's safer than the land.
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# ? Sep 4, 2015 15:43 |
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V. Illych L. posted:hardly any west africans come to europe outside of france wtf dude My hypothetical west africans were a reference the articles Ligur posted which featured middle class africans claiming asylum, it was a pithy way of refering to economic migrants who are claiming asylum as a way to get a foot in the door. I'm just struggling with the idea here that economic migrants making asylum claims in the midsts of a horrendous refugee crisis are people to be defended. Which is what the post I replied to was doing.
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# ? Sep 4, 2015 15:45 |
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V. Illych L. posted:hardly any west africans come to europe outside of france wtf dude The top 3 nationalities arriving are Syrian (34%), Afghani (12%), and Eritrea (12%) according to the UNHCR. Eritrea is ruled by a one party dictatorship so bad it's been called Africa's North Korea so they probably are mostly refugees. Somalis are 5% with 10% of those being unaccompanied and separated children.
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# ? Sep 4, 2015 15:51 |
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Zikan posted:The top 3 nationalities arriving are Syrian (34%), Afghani (12%), and Eritrea (12%) according to the UNHCR. Eritrea is ruled by a one party dictatorship so bad it's been called Africa's North Korea so they probably are mostly refugees. And are notably not in Western Africa.
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# ? Sep 4, 2015 15:56 |
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Blue Star Error posted:I'm just struggling with the idea here that economic migrants making asylum claims in the midsts of a horrendous refugee crisis are people to be defended. Which is what the post I replied to was doing. Yeah gently caress those people right? I'm not defending them, if they even exist, I'm saying focusing on them is distracting people from the real issue. Maybe people are just using it as an excuse not to do anything about the problem. Or so they don't feel guilty for not helping. Red Rox fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Sep 4, 2015 |
# ? Sep 4, 2015 16:21 |
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EU should invade Syria and Eritrea, then set up democratic governments there. That way the refugees can go back to their own country. I can't possibly envision anything going wrong.
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# ? Sep 4, 2015 16:39 |
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Disco De Soto posted:Yeah gently caress those people right? I'm not defending them, if they even exist, I'm saying focusing on them is distracting people from the real issue. Which is what? The lack of sufficient immediate relief, our historical role in engendering the things people flee from, the EU's general incapacity for rapid adaptive response, the lack of even a hypothetical long-term viable immigration policy, or the clusterfuck of crisscrossing political preferences that make any one of these virtually impossible to solve in practice? The 'real' issue is that there is no single real issue. It's context all the way down, and nobody seems to agree on where to start, let alone what to do. We can't pay or vote our way out of it because no one has a solution we can pay or vote for. This was a foreseeable, even mechanical problem. Best case, we can't control everything in the world, so eventually we were going to have to deal with a migration based on people fleeing bad conditions, for whatever reason. We failed to prepare for a predictable event, and now we're failing to deal with that predictable event. That's the only thing that matters. It's not a crisis of conscience, it's a crisis of competence.
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# ? Sep 4, 2015 16:58 |
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jonnypeh posted:EU should invade Syria and Eritrea, then set up democratic governments there. That way the refugees can go back to their own country. You need to use a few airburst nukes to clear out ISIL and show Israel, Iran, and KSA what will happen if they don't share nuclear technology. Then you Marshall Plan the region.
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# ? Sep 4, 2015 17:03 |
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Stereotype posted:According to wikipedia you are high by a factor of two. And this is talking about an addition to that figure. An addition in mainly unskilled, war ravaged people with zero support structure and probably some deep traumatic issues. The office of national statistics provides migration data: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/taxonomy/index.html?nscl=Population Wikipedia may be incorrect or using a different statistic. The ONS statistic for migration is approximately 330 thousand more people entering the country last year than left it, compared to a population of 64.6 million residents. While I don't imagine the UK could realistically support a million extra people all at once, at the very least it would be possible to exchange some of the migration quota for refugees, if necessary, or even simply accepting an extra 10 or 20 thousand people, less than 10% of the total annual migration each year. Not much, but far more than we are currently doing. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Sep 4, 2015 |
# ? Sep 4, 2015 17:06 |
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There seems to be two distinct but related problems: 1) People are fleeing from warzones because they are being killed and they need somewhere to live 2) People are dying (e.g., drowning in the sea) while attempting to escape from said warzones While it is nice to tell refugees that Germany, Sweden, and other countries are open to refugees, this doesn't seem to solve the problem of people dying en-route. Are there any plans for Europe, Turkey, etc to directly facilitate refugee transport or are they just going to implicitly condone smugglers? Do they think that a huge coast guard response is sufficient to save all the people whose ships sink?
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# ? Sep 4, 2015 17:22 |
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Lascivious Sloth posted:For someone who claims others are ignorant of refugee policy/facts globally you sure don't have much of a grasp yourself. yes we're doing things, we are not doing enough and what we're doing is in large part half-arsed. we need to have a long-term plan, is what i'm saying, not just emergency measures, because this civil war isn't going anywhere, and living for years in refugee camps is a recipe for any number of disasters. atm we're funding refugee camps and provisional solutions. this is not sustainable in the medium or long term. for your other point, those were the major refugee hotspots i recalled off the top of my head, so it's obviously incomplete. refugee crises of this sort are obviously not isolated to europe, and if this current crisis is telling us anything it's that the world is increasingly interconnected - another country i left out is Colombia, where millions are fleeing the civil war between the government and FARC, for instance - i also deliberately did not mention the perennial palestinian crisis because the post you responded to was in the Mid-East NO I/P DISCUSSION thread. regardless, this is nitpicking, and far from as devestating to the central point that you seem to imagine it is. you're also conflating actual refugees with mainly economic migrants from the balkans, and assuming that i'm discussing purely european problems, which is reading quite a lot into my post which is not actually there. my position is that every major refugee crisis is a global problem, though obviously american problems are more convenient for other parties to help with. V. Illych L. fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Sep 4, 2015 |
# ? Sep 4, 2015 17:29 |
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CSPAN Caller posted:While it is nice to tell refugees that Germany, Sweden, and other countries are open to refugees, this doesn't seem to solve the problem of people dying en-route. Are there any plans for Europe, Turkey, etc to directly facilitate refugee transport or are they just going to implicitly condone smugglers? Do they think that a huge coast guard response is sufficient to save all the people whose ships sink? Its a major concern, however if it was actually addressed with a sea-lift or airlift of some sort, I suspect there'd be massive political backlash. Its precarious.
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# ? Sep 4, 2015 17:50 |
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jonnypeh posted:EU should invade Syria and Eritrea, then set up democratic governments there. That way the refugees can go back to their own country. The EU citizens, that give enough gently caress for actions, are already in Syria fighting for ISIS mostly...
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# ? Sep 4, 2015 18:11 |
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The bodies of Aylan Kurdi, his brother, and his mother, were returned to Kobani where a funeral was held today.
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# ? Sep 4, 2015 18:20 |
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V. Illych L. posted:yes we're doing things, we are not doing enough and what we're doing is in large part half-arsed. we need to have a long-term plan, is what i'm saying, not just emergency measures, because this civil war isn't going anywhere, and living for years in refugee camps is a recipe for any number of disasters. atm we're funding refugee camps and provisional solutions. this is not sustainable in the medium or long term. We were in the ME thread, or at least I thought we were, discussing asylum seekers fleeing to Europe, and that's why South Sudanese (and now Colombian and Palestinian) refugees are not pertinent to the EU discussion. Colombian refugees are heading to Ecuador, Venezuela, Panama and other countries in the region. Those from Kosovo are considered under the United Nations definition of a refugee as seeking asylum and should be processed as such, regardless of that they are escaping poverty and high unemployment. Someone isn't a refugee until they claim refuge in a country, until then they are an asylum seeker traveling through the country. Once they have claimed asylum they are then a refugee until it is determined they are not in a legal process called the Refugee Status Determination. To address the issue of refugees dying at sea or on their perilous journey to Europe, we need to look at where each group are coming from, and address the issues in those countries with a multilateral and global response and address the layers of issues that causes people to flee. This means: effectively stopping conflict (whether through sanctions, intervention, or diplomacy), providing a process for people to claim asylum as close to the country of origin as possible, for the world to agree on a fair, equitable and dignified distribution of refugees with support to integrate them into society, and reconstructing the country of origin and economy and providing sustainable development. I don't think we necessarily disagree with each other. I've worked with refugees for a while now, and I'm currently in Iraq supporting refugees and IDPs under the UN flag. To really see the devastation and hopelessness makes me very passionate about refugee rights and advocacy, so apologies if I come off as nitpicking. For the sake of the thread, I want to define what an asylum seeker, refugee and migrant are because language is important when discussing these issues as it can dehumanize and and can be subversive when used wrongly whether or purpose or not. Asylum Seeker: Someone who has left their country of origin to escape persecution to claim asylum in another country. They are not a refugee until claiming to be one. This means they can cross multiple countries and still not claim refugee status. Many people do this for different reasons, but it is not illegal. Refugee: someone who has claimed asylum in a country and under the UN definition of a refugee meets the criteria. A country does not have to accept them as a refugee for them to be one, they just need to meet the criteria in reality regardless of the country's determination of status or laws. Internally Displaced Person: Someone fleeing persecution in their own country from where they lived, but still reside within the borders. Usually living in a camp, with a relative, or are renting/have purchased elsewhere, and can't return back to their residency. Migrant: There are a whole bunch of definitions for international migrant, emigrant, and migration worker; but they don't matter in this context because we're talking about asylum seekers and refugees. Lascivious Sloth fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Sep 4, 2015 |
# ? Sep 4, 2015 18:25 |
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XMNN posted:He's right kids have been dying every day in the same way for months but because there weren't photos plastered everywhere people could just push it to the back of their minds. He probably intends it in a "So we shouldn't care" way, rather than "We are disgusting for not caring before" way, though. I think the EU are forcing his hand behind closed doors as well. He's desperate to get some nebulous 'concessions' for the UK on trade issues and has been told that he's getting more or less nothing until he offers to take in more refugees. Unfortunately his base hates refugees as well so this doesn't leave him much flexibility. He's trying to realign the British right wing's expectations on certain key issues with the EU's as he doesn't actually want a Brexit. lmaoboy1998 fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Sep 4, 2015 |
# ? Sep 4, 2015 18:32 |
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Nonsense posted:How common are deaths like the large group found in Austria? That incident sounds like what some immigrants traversing through Mexico have dealt with via "coyotes" who steal their cash and ditch the locked cargo vehicle in the Chihuahua desert. Last year, 75% percent of all migrants (as in "people moving from one country to another", regardless if they are refugees or economic immigrants) that died on their route died in the Mediterranean Sean. Boats sinking with several hundred people drowning are depressingly common. The worst case were 700 dying in a single sinking ship. That Austrian incident was sadly a comparatively small event
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# ? Sep 4, 2015 18:47 |
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Zodium posted:Which is what? The lack of sufficient immediate relief, our historical role in engendering the things people flee from, the EU's general incapacity for rapid adaptive response, the lack of even a hypothetical long-term viable immigration policy, or the clusterfuck of crisscrossing political preferences that make any one of these virtually impossible to solve in practice? yes incompetence surely there's no way there could be people, much less those in positions of privilege and power who could directly influence state policy on matters like this, who stood to benefit from the deleterious effects of western imperialism on the rest of the world while also being callous enough to scapegoat the people harmed by it and it's even less likely that there're everyday people in the imperial core who, in spite of the fact that they're harmed by this hypothetical policy of brutal oppression and exploitation, also buy into the fascist mythos promoted by the western elite and the idea that there could be well educated, ostensibly cynical and humanist citizens of the imperial core who uncritically accept pro-imperialist propaganda is just right out
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# ? Sep 4, 2015 19:54 |
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Who cares if some dude who just wants a better life gets saved as long as it means people fleeing hell on earth also get saved?
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# ? Sep 4, 2015 20:02 |
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Sharkie posted:Who cares if some dude who just wants a better life gets saved as long as it means people fleeing hell on earth also get saved? Ligur is... somewhat "patriotic."
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# ? Sep 4, 2015 20:09 |
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St. Angela
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# ? Sep 4, 2015 20:19 |
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Ernie Muppari posted:yes So, what, the real solution is actually locked away deep under Brussels and no-one can independently produce it because ... ? Makes sense, let's spend many hours operating under this assumption.
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# ? Sep 4, 2015 20:33 |
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Zodium posted:So, what, the real solution is actually locked away deep under Brussels and no-one can independently produce it because ... ? Makes sense, let's spend many hours operating under this assumption. no i agree with you everyone's just dumb
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# ? Sep 4, 2015 20:35 |
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Torrannor posted:Last year, 75% percent of all migrants (as in "people moving from one country to another", regardless if they are refugees or economic immigrants) that died on their route died in the Mediterranean Sean. All of them...in the world? Bound for Europe? Do you have a source, I'd like to know more. Edit: sorry now I see how ' their route' can mean that route from that previously mentioned wreck. I'd still like a source on the percentage though, that's grim. Jack B Nimble fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Sep 4, 2015 |
# ? Sep 4, 2015 20:40 |
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I would be astonished if there wasn't more migration on the Asian continent than in Europe. Though it is conceivably possible that a lot of them died crossing the Mediterranean if they got very lost?
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# ? Sep 4, 2015 20:42 |
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Ernie Muppari posted:no i agree with you hmm, that checks out
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# ? Sep 4, 2015 20:43 |
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# ? Jun 8, 2024 08:17 |
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...yrias-refugees/ The Puppet Master fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Sep 4, 2015 |
# ? Sep 4, 2015 21:16 |