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Pener Kropoopkin posted:ok here's my proposal: i say both!
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Jan 14, 2017 19:12
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jarofpiss posted:how do you feel about american capitalist imperial hegemony being enforced with violence abroad? The same way I feel about the Kremlin putting down populist revolutions in Czechoslovakia, Hungary, etc etc
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Jan 14, 2017 19:13
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:ok here's my proposal: what if the police are the facists
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Jan 14, 2017 19:13
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Main Paineframe posted:imo the problem isn't the fifty open fascists calling for the reinstitution of slavery, it's the fifty million people who dismiss them as crazy nutjobs...and then cross the street to avoid a black person because they think all non-whites are potential criminals "Reinstituion of slavery" got news for ya bud. It's already here in the Private Prison complex.
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Jan 14, 2017 19:14
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Business Gorillas posted:what if the police are the facists status quo
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Jan 14, 2017 19:14
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 let's take a look at what happens when the police don't get involved in a fascist vs communist conflict
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Jan 14, 2017 19:18
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Seizure Meat posted:
same, except it's 1932 and the police are siding against the KPD
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Jan 14, 2017 19:23
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The simple fact is that fascists want violence more than anything, in fact they actively prepare for it, and giving them violence is exactly what they want and need for their movement to continue. Remember, Hitler rose to prominence after the beer hall putsch.
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Jan 14, 2017 19:26
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Seizure Meat posted:
I agree communists and leftists should be preparing themselves to defend against violent attacks by racists and fascists because the state will support the fascists nearly every time and the fascists are preparing for violence themselves
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Jan 14, 2017 19:28
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jarofpiss posted:I agree communists and leftists should be preparing themselves to defend against violent attacks by racists and fascists because the state will support the fascists nearly every time and the fascists are preparing for violence themselves The problem is they don't because they are dumb children who want to fight, and not fully indoctrinated adults who want a Struggle. This will never change.
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Jan 14, 2017 19:30
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Seizure Meat posted:The simple fact is that fascists want violence more than anything, in fact they actively prepare for it, and giving them violence is exactly what they want and need for their movement to continue. He was prominent enough at the time to stage an attempted coup in Bavaria, my dude.
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Jan 14, 2017 19:31
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Like, what do you think the Beer Hall Putsch was? Do you think they should have just let the Nazis take over, because cracking their skulls would be giving them what they want?
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Jan 14, 2017 19:32
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:He was prominent enough at the time to stage an attempted coup in Bavaria, my dude. National Socialism didn't spread to the wider Germany until afterwards, when the national news plastered his cause for all to see. Hitler himself said this.
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Jan 14, 2017 19:32
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Seizure Meat posted:National Socialism didn't spread to the wider Germany until afterwards, when the national news plastered his cause for all to see. Hitler himself said this. Do you think they wouldn't have reported on a Nazi takeover?
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Jan 14, 2017 19:34
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:ok here's my proposal: great news for you, the police are right this second free to beat up anyone they want!!!!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3mLoFndR6M&t=4s
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Jan 14, 2017 19:36
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Do you think they wouldn't have reported on a Nazi takeover? When a section of government or land is taken over by a political cause, it should always be confronted with state level violence. Like the Dakota pipeline, they all should have been shot. I see your point.
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Jan 14, 2017 19:36
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Seizure Meat posted:When a section of government or land is taken over by a political cause, it should always be confronted with state level violence. Like the Dakota pipeline, they all should have been shot. lmfao
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Jan 14, 2017 19:36
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Squizzle posted:great news for you, the police are right this second free to beat up anyone they want!!!!!!  Weird how they're only inclined to beat up leftists, blacks, and natives though. Oh well. Seizure Meat posted:When a section of government or land is taken over by a political cause, it should always be confronted with state level violence. Like the Dakota pipeline, they all should have been shot. *Nazis march in mass formation in the streets* Seizure Meat: don't bean them with baseball bats, that's just giving them what they want! *Nazis march into the provincial legislature and hang the governor in his own mansion* Seizure Meat: don't shoot them, that's just giving them what they want! *Nazi militias spread out and seize every arm of the state, they're the government now* Seizure Meat: don't form an underground resistance, that's just giving them what they want!
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Jan 14, 2017 19:40
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liberals please understand that "the state" is not one unchanging thing and that there are many types of states that are different across history and geography and support of one state does not equal support of another. and that perhaps thinking the state you live under should NOT be strengthened because it is bad can be thought at the same time as thinking that you SHOULD support a state that is good against opposition.
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Jan 14, 2017 19:42
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making free speech into a partisan issue and and then ceding it to the right because you want to control the discourse was a critically stupid mistake
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Jan 14, 2017 19:42
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I love when people don't understand that Hitler, when confronted with state violence and imprisoned, came to believe that his calls for violent overthrow were bankrupt in the greater public opinion and then changed to a mainstreaming of his views and a lawful takeover of the government. When in fact the beer hall putsch was not a unanimous movement and that negotiation and marginalization would have broken National Socialism in half, instead.
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Jan 14, 2017 19:46
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Seizure Meat posted:I love when people don't understand that Hitler, when confronted with state violence and imprisoned, came to believe that his calls for violent overthrow were bankrupt in the greater public opinion and then changed to a mainstreaming of his views and a lawful takeover of the government. How do you negotiate with a movement that violently seizes control of the state? Do you not understand what a loving coup is?
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Jan 14, 2017 19:48
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:How do you negotiate with a movement that violently seizes control of the state? Do you not understand what a loving coup is? The beer hall putsch was not a coup in the sense that you think it was, and National Socialism did not take control of Germany through violent means.
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Jan 14, 2017 19:49
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Seizure Meat posted:When a section of government or land is taken over by a political cause, it should always be confronted with state level violence. Like the Dakota pipeline, they all should have been shot. if this is real i hope you live a terrible life until you know better if this is fakenews i hope you smoke a cigarrette or something and relax because you my friend are still a loving simpleton btw lol @ anyone who thinks the current state apparatus isnt entirely held up by violence or the suggestion of violence ancient aliens did 01/20
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Jan 14, 2017 19:54
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Also lol at the idea that free speech is somehow counter revolutionary. Idpol liberals like the op are like those YouTube videos of dogs barking that sounds sort of like words, but the dog has no idea what it's saying.
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Jan 14, 2017 19:56
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8th Line posted:if this is real i hope you live a terrible life until you know better The point is that sometimes the state using that violence results in blowback that is unintended. The US government knew better than to squash that protest because then people would have spilled into the streets. I'm not equating that protest with Nazis.
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Jan 14, 2017 19:57
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Digiwizzard posted:Also lol at the idea that free speech is somehow counter revolutionary. Idpol liberals like the op are like those YouTube videos of dogs barking that sounds sort of like words don't u call me a fuckin liberal u son of a bitch!
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Jan 14, 2017 19:58
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:
hmm maybe implement a quota system, you know mandatory minimum beating amounts per week per political affiliation
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Jan 14, 2017 19:59
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Squizzle posted:hmm maybe implement a quota system, you know mandatory minimum beating amounts per week per political affiliation bring me one hunnerd nazi scalps!!
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Jan 14, 2017 20:00
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Seizure Meat posted:The beer hall putsch was not a coup in the sense that you think it was, and National Socialism did not take control of Germany through violent means. The Beer Hall Putsch was absolutely a coup. They detained government ministers, attempted to seize by force key areas of Munich, and directly confronted the police when the state didn't capitulate. The dumbass idea that you should just let the Nazis take over instead of confronting them with violence is exactly how the Fascists seized power in Italy, after the pussy rear end king made Mussolini king poo poo because of his march on Rome. Hitler was emulating Mussolini, who had a proven strategy of spooking the bourgeois state into compliance. After the Putsch they suppressed voters with street violence. They burned down the Reichstag. What do you think violence is, exactly?
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Jan 14, 2017 20:01
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lol
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Jan 14, 2017 20:02
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:The Beer Hall Putsch was absolutely a coup. They detained government ministers, attempted to seize by force key areas of Munich, and directly confronted the police when the state didn't capitulate. The dumbass idea that you should just let the Nazis take over instead of confronting them with violence is exactly how the Fascists seized power in Italy, after the pussy rear end king made Mussolini king poo poo because of his march on Rome. Hitler was emulating Mussolini, who had a proven strategy of spooking the bourgeois state into compliance. Meanwhile during the Putsch leaders were actively disagreeing with Hitler on how far he was taking it. So instead of driving that wedge home with political negotiation, you reinforced what Hitler was saying and the movement coalesced around him.
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Jan 14, 2017 20:03
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jarofpiss posted:don't u call me a fuckin liberal u son of a bitch! *In between writing vox think pieces talking about how we need to set stronger limits on speech to save Twitter from toxic sexist + racist proles* how dare you call me a liberal
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Jan 14, 2017 20:04
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as long as the blacks dont get uppity and the brick and mortar is safe im good
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Jan 14, 2017 20:04
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jarofpiss posted:bring me one hunnerd nazi scalps!! *extremely reasonable voice that a grown up would have* ugh you know theyd just cut off the same one nazis scalp one hundred times, thats why we need to get in my time boat and sail back to elect bernie, its the only way
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Jan 14, 2017 20:06
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hi this thread is trash but i'm just dropping in to say: i don't know why people arguing about if the state should suppress nazis with the force of law when the proposition was that you, personally, should supress nazis' free speech
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Jan 14, 2017 20:06
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Chwoka posted:hi this thread is trash but i'm just dropping in to say: i don't know why people arguing about if the state should suppress nazis with the force of law when the proposition was that you, personally, should supress nazis' free speech if you post itt you're just sinking to the level of the posters and that makes you just as bad as them
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Jan 14, 2017 20:08
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Chwoka posted:hi this thread is trash but i'm just dropping in to say: i don't know why people arguing about if the state should suppress nazis with the force of law when the proposition was that you, personally, should supress nazis' free speech Suppress 'em if you can get away with it, but 90% of private suppression efforts end up amplifying the nazi's message because antifas are mostly shortsighted fools.
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Jan 14, 2017 20:10
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Seizure Meat posted:Meanwhile during the Putsch leaders were actively disagreeing with Hitler on how far he was taking it. So instead of driving that wedge home with political negotiation, you reinforced what Hitler was saying and the movement coalesced around him. I'm sure they would have coalesced around him if the Bavarian state capitulated, which would have proved Hitler right and given him enough clout to begin a march on Berlin. You keep saying "negotiate" but negotiate with what? You can't negotiate with a violent coup attempt, you either suppress the coup or let it take over. And anyway, the whole premise that violence against Nazis only feeds into their complex & strengthens them is bullshit. Because the fascist movement in Britain never recovered after The Battle of Cable Street.
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Jan 14, 2017 20:12
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:I'm sure they would have coalesced around him if the Bavarian state capitulated, which would have proved Hitler right and given him enough clout to begin a march on Berlin. You keep saying "negotiate" but negotiate with what? You can't negotiate with a violent coup attempt, you either suppress the coup or let it take over. Perhaps that had more to do with the fact that Britain then went on to fight an extremely bloody war against a fascist state. Look, this doesn't even have to be a fascist thing, or something that always ends bad. Political violence by the state in South Africa legitimized Nelson Mandela and led to the end of apartheid. The point is, using violence against opponents if you can avoid it is always the preferable tactic.
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Jan 14, 2017 20:16
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