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Racing Stripe posted:So, I know you can't solve our problem, but I'm wondering if the thread has any opinion on a) whether this just sounds like a bad situation for the dog b) whether aging out of adolescence is likely to help or c) whether we should be worried that he'll start getting aggressive. Like I said, we don't want to send him away. We love him, and we're willing to give this time. What we can't do is make any changes to his routine that will make him less likely to see other dogs. That is 100% impossible. So he either can get trained out of this, age out of it, or get sent away. I'm just really worried that the last option is the only realistic one. What would you do if he never got better? Is what's going on right now an acceptable level of stress in your life? There's a tiny chance he'll mature out of it but most dogs become less social as they reach social maturity, especially since he seems like he probably has some bully breed in him. Frustration and reactivity can absolutely escalate into aggressive outbursts or redirection onto other targets if it continues to get worse and worse. I'm not going to say that your situation is hopeless but realistically it's going to take a ton of work and may never be a relaxed situation. You can find a vet behaviorist and try medication to lower his frustration to a level where you can do the training he needs. Some otc options are composure chews/l-theanine or zylkene if you want to give those a try. You could also see if a head halter would help you have more control on walks but I'd be sure to use a short leash so he's not wrenching his neck pulling on it. Overall it seems like your situation, while totally fine for many dogs, might just not be a great fit for this dude. It's nothing you or he have done wrong and you aren't wrong for getting a dog but maybe this particular dog could be happier in a more suburban area where he's not freaking out about seeing dogs every single walk. Again, I think with a lot of time and maybe medical support you could get to a place where he's not losing his mind the instant he sees a dog but it's also ok to not want to spend the next however many years working on this every time you leave the house with him.
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Feb 5, 2021 21:16
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Racing Stripe posted:So, I know you can't solve our problem, but I'm wondering if the thread has any opinion on a) whether this just sounds like a bad situation for the dog b) whether aging out of adolescence is likely to help or c) whether we should be worried that he'll start getting aggressive. Like I said, we don't want to send him away. We love him, and we're willing to give this time. What we can't do is make any changes to his routine that will make him less likely to see other dogs. That is 100% impossible. So he either can get trained out of this, age out of it, or get sent away. I'm just really worried that the last option is the only realistic one. Hi! Our pittie/boxer mix, Miss Chamomile, and our living situation are very similar to yours. We've now had her for just north of a year, and have been working on desensitizing and counter-conditioning her, as you describe. That's yielded some results-- she still gets very stiff and alert when she sees a dog in the distance, but the threshold at which she actually starts flipping out has been gradually lowering. I feel you about the timing issue, and all I can say is that clicker training and having a treat bag at your waist and ready to go are the real saviors here. Get him to associate the click with imminently receiving a treat and you buy yourself a little time to actually give it to him, while still maintaining the connection between event and reward. What we haven't yet done due to Covid but intend to do eventually is work one-on-one with a qualified trainer who specializes in reactivity. In particular, there are exercises that really help but which we can't do because we don't have access to a friend with a super chill dog who can be our training dummy, basically. There's a lot of good books out there that go in depth on managing and training reactive dogs; I can't recommend any specifically (as I haven't had a chance to read any in depth) but I've seen Click to Calm and several books by Patricia McConnell recommended. Exercise-wise, I think you're right that your pup is basically constantly slam full of cortisol, and finding ways to do playtime outdoors with no dogs would help a lot. We also time our walks to when dogs are less frequent, and since Chamomile has gotten better at keeping her focus we've been able to take her to a local fenced-in lot to throw the ball and tucker her out. Something you should look into if you haven't is Sniffspot; people rent out their often fenced backyards and other private outdoor spaces for a few bucks an hour, and it's intended with specifically reactive dogs in mind. If there are any near you, they can net you an hour or two of dog exhaustion with a guarantee of no dog-induced meltdowns. It's gonna be ok! Training and management do work, and even though you'll also need to adjust your expectations and there will always be that twinge of resentment towards people who seem to have effortlessly friendly dogs, it does get better. And in the event that your living situation just doesn't work for him, that's okay too. You have nothing to feel guilty about-- after all, the shelter didn't inform you of his leash reactivity, and you were making decisions with the best information available to you. My last piece of advice is to keep a walk journal, somewhere to keep track of dog encounters and general behavior while out and about. My experience has been that it's easy to get stuck in despair from the bad days and not even notice when those bad days are getting less frequent and less intense, and keeping track helps ground you.
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Feb 5, 2021 21:44
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Racing Stripe posted:Unfortunately, he is extremely reactive when he's on a leash. If he sees another dog closer than 100 feet away or so, he goes into an unhinged barking fit and has to be dragged away. Is it possible to try some of this training/treating in a place where you can expect dogs to be there? It sounds like you're trying to do the treating thing but he's reactive from such a distance you don't notice the dog in time to properly distract with treats. Is there a local dog park you can go to and try training from just outside his reactivity zone, gradually moving in as he gets more comfortable? Disclaimer that I have no specialty in this nor have I dealt with extreme reactivity like you've described. Just throwing this out in case it helps.
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Feb 5, 2021 22:57
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Really stupid suggestion: could you try starting by watching videos of dogs or something on the tv? If the sight of them alone is enough, maybe you can at least simulate part of it in the comfort of your home?
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Feb 6, 2021 01:26
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Racing Stripe posted:Unfortunately, he is extremely reactive when he's on a leash. If he sees another dog closer than 100 feet away or so, he goes into an unhinged barking fit and has to be dragged away. That’s my dog, Barley. He is reactive to everything.... When we first got him we had a regular house and yard situation and we would wear him out playing ball. I tried to take him running but he would knock me down, pull me into a tree, or try to attack the mail delivery truck at every opportunity. I attempted a lot of the different training suggestions but I honestly gave up in the face of his craziness. Then we moved to an apartment and dealt with a lot of the timing issues that you are facing. We had to take him and our other dog out to potty before the neighbors got up and then keep them inside until the school kids were past, then I took them running in the park. I used a belt leash and with Noodle’s added weight we could drag Barley along in the direction we wanted to go. It was still a poo poo show every time and I hated it. I couldn’t trust him at the dog park so we rarely went there and he didn’t get enough exercise at all. After a few months we bought a house with some land in the country and now his reactivity is not a problem. We have a fenced front and back yard separate from the pasture. In the front yard, he barks at people walking by (once a day) and at delivery trucks, but we are fairly isolated here so it’s nice to have an “alarm system”. In the back yard he barks at the local feral cat, crows and hawks, which helps to keep our chickens and rabbits aware of danger. It’s been a surprise but he is completely safe with our chickens and goats. He sees them as part of the family, I guess, so he doesn’t bark at them or chase them. (The rabbits are farther away and out of his line of sight, he is not rabbit-trustworthy.) He’s still a complete bozo when we have to take him somewhere but that’s rare. In all, I think Instant Jellyfish is completely right. Your situation does not seem like a good fit for this dog, just as mine wasn’t for Barley. I suggest you go ahead and buy a farm. 
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Feb 6, 2021 03:03
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Joburg posted:In all, I think Instant Jellyfish is completely right. Your situation does not seem like a good fit for this dog, just as mine wasn’t for Barley. I suggest you go ahead and buy a farm. It worked for me and my reactive rear end in a top hat! Everyone just get a farm. 
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Feb 6, 2021 03:36
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Was training Ruby to heel (or at least not leap in front of me and get kicked) and a neighbor pulled alongside and offered a raincoat she'd bought for her son to take a turkey in for show and tell. Ummm... Okay? Turns out it was this sweet hiking cloak!  Now I have to figure out how people are able to take dogs camping. Our last idiot couldn't calm down enough to stop barking in the tent, but Ruby can sleep anywhere. E: just looked up "dog sleeping bag" and OMG 
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Feb 6, 2021 15:47
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Wow, thanks for all the input, folks. You’ve read and understood better than most of the trainers we’ve spoken to.Instant Jellyfish posted:What would you do if he never got better? Is what's going on right now an acceptable level of stress in your life? There's a tiny chance he'll mature out of it but most dogs become less social as they reach social maturity, especially since he seems like he probably has some bully breed in him. Frustration and reactivity can absolutely escalate into aggressive outbursts or redirection onto other targets if it continues to get worse and worse. Quorum posted:All I can say is that clicker training and having a treat bag at your waist and ready to go are the real saviors here. We’ve got some friends with a chill dog and a yard, and we want to start doing some practice with them soon. That might just turn into the dogs playing in the yard together, since we know he gets along fine off leash. That would be great, but it might not quite be the kind of practice reps you’re talking about. Dango Bango posted:Is it possible to try some of this training/treating in a place where you can expect dogs to be there? It sounds like you're trying to do the treating thing but he's reactive from such a distance you don't notice the dog in time to properly distract with treats. Is there a local dog park you can go to and try training from just outside his reactivity zone, gradually moving in as he gets more comfortable? Yorkshire Pudding posted:Really stupid suggestion: could you try starting by watching videos of dogs or something on the tv? If the sight of them alone is enough, maybe you can at least simulate part of it in the comfort of your home? Joburg posted:In all, I think Instant Jellyfish is completely right. Your situation does not seem like a good fit for this dog, just as mine wasn’t for Barley. I suggest you go ahead and buy a farm.
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Feb 6, 2021 18:09
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Racing Stripe posted:Incredible timing on this. I’ve been “charging” the clicker (I think that’s what it’s called, getting him used to hearing the click and getting a treat) and we just tried it out in the wild last night. He saw another dog from a bit of a distance and he locked on, and when he heard the click it really cut through the fog and directed his attention to the treat bag. We got away clean from a situation that otherwise probably would have turned ugly. I hope it continues to work, and that it will work in closer encounters. This is good to hear! I've been doing something similar with my dog because he will just lock on and stare at small animals and some dogs - trying to drill in the "look at me" command during these situations.
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Feb 6, 2021 20:15
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Is the general consensus around here that e-collars are inhumane and ineffective for obedience training?
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Feb 6, 2021 21:42
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Dango Bango posted:This is good to hear! I've been doing something similar with my dog because he will just lock on and stare at small animals and some dogs - trying to drill in the "look at me" command during these situations. Yeah, I think the unique sound of the clicker just communicates more urgently or something than your voice giving a command. Even though my dog knows lots of commands, he doesn't listen when he's stuck on something else. He seems to hear the clicker in a way that he doesn't hear me speaking. That being said, I've only really used it twice. It seems to work pretty well, though. I'm trying to reserve it for specific situations and he always gets a really good treat when he hears it.
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Feb 6, 2021 21:43
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Bouillon Rube posted:Is the general consensus around here that e-collars are inhumane and ineffective for obedience training? Shock collars? They are bad yes. In the context of pets, though, an "e-collar" is a cone of shame aka an "Elizabethan Collar", though I'm not sure how you'd use that for obedience.
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Feb 6, 2021 21:55
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What about the collars that vibrate or beep? Mostly pointless since you could just get a clicker? Are vibrating collars useful for deaf dogs?
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Feb 6, 2021 22:14
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Bouillon Rube posted:Is the general consensus around here that e-collars are inhumane and ineffective for obedience training? No different than a prong collar. Make sure it's used correctly.
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Feb 6, 2021 22:24
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GoodBee posted:What about the collars that vibrate or beep? Mostly pointless since you could just get a clicker? Vibrating or beeping collars are good for communicating with dogs that can't hear or are working at a distance so they might not hear a verbal cue. Some dogs find the vibration as aversive as a shock though so you need to introduce them carefully. I have no problem with knowledgeable people using e-collars in training certain things, like a really solid off leash recall. I don't think they are appropriate for the general public or anyone trying to use them to deal with aggression or reactivity. Most training facilities that strap an e-collar on any dog that walks in the door should not be using them though. A puppy doesn't need an e-collar to learn to sit, a pet dog doesn't need an e-collar to learn to walk nicely on a leash. I used to be super against them and I know they are banned in some countries but I've seen them used as valuable tools by some skilled trainers and don't really have a problem with them in theory now. In practice, a lot of people suck no matter what tool they're using.
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Feb 6, 2021 23:03
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Right, so to give some context my wife is pregnant and our 8-month old lab mix is still behaving like a loving idiot. He doesn’t have a mean bone in his body and has never shown a hint of aggression toward any human or animal, but he just has a ton of energy and doesn’t really listen to us despite quite a bit of at home training. If it was just me it would be fine, but we can’t have a crazy 45lb puppy throwing his weight at and trying to roughhouse with my wife or a newborn. Several people have recommended ‘boot camp’ style courses where you send the dog off for a month or two for training, but all of these places seem to use electric collars for behavior correction.
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Feb 7, 2021 00:42
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I'm not a professional trainer or behaviorist, and there are tons of articles out there on the pros and cons of negative reinforcement devices and techniques like e/shock collars, prong collars, etc. So rather than lay out why I personally think they tend to be generally ineffective and/or inhumane (at least for non-professionals), I'll say this... An 8-month-old lab mix is going to be a loving idiot sometimes, no matter how much training you do. Your young, high-energy dog is being a young, high-energy dog. Without knowing the exact problems you're seeing, it's hard to say what the root issue is or how to tackle it. However, in most of these cases, your dog simply isn't getting enough exercise. I don't mean a few walks around the block, I mean super-long jogs, sessions of running flat-out, or playing hard with other dogs. If you're not as high-energy as your dog, teaching it to play fetch is an awesome path to infinite exercise - all you have to do is throw the ball, while the dog does all the work. I won't tell you not to send your dog to "boot camp", but it's probably not necessary, and you're not going to get a perfect dog back. Read some books, watch some videos, and above all, be consistent. The dog will likely grow out of its rear end in a top hat phase in a year or two, especially if you're patient and consistent with training. If you don't think you can do this with a baby on the way, you may have to find someplace else the dog can be itself and be happy.
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Feb 7, 2021 02:55
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Dogs have been seriously injured or killed in bootcamps like that so I would be really, really careful in selecting a board and train option. I also don't think puppy rambunctiousness should be dealt with using an ecollar. Mental stimulation, regular positive reinforcement based training, and exercise will solve a good 90% of puppy problems. Feel free to post specific issues if you're looking for advice.
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Feb 7, 2021 04:18
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Weird dog behavior/health question: We've got an eight month old cattle dog mix who has recently begun chewing the tip of her tail on a semi-regular basis. So far, it hasn't gotten to the point where she's broken the skin but it's still causing us a bit of anxiety about what will happen if the behavior progresses to a habit. She gets plenty of exercise (at least one good hour long off-leash romp a day, plus walks), always has access to several different chew toys around the house and in her crate, and hasn't really exhibited signs of being interested in chewing any other part of her body. We stop her when we see her doing it, but more often than not, it's happening when we aren't around to stop it. The main reason we can tell it's happening is that she's got a black tail with a white paint dip at the end, and the paint dip is getting progressively smaller. We've been applying a bitter apple spray almost every day, which we also use to stop her from chewing door frames, baseboards, etc. Beyond allergies or fleas (she's on a preventative) the only other explanation we can think of is that she likes the texture since she's also interested in chewing the hems of rugs and LOVES to play tug with a rope toy. Any ideas as to why our sweet girl can't get enough of that tasty tail tip?
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Feb 7, 2021 04:52
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whythepies posted:Weird dog behavior/health question: We've got an eight month old cattle dog mix who has recently begun chewing the tip of her tail on a semi-regular basis. So far, it hasn't gotten to the point where she's broken the skin but it's still causing us a bit of anxiety about what will happen if the behavior progresses to a habit. She gets plenty of exercise (at least one good hour long off-leash romp a day, plus walks), always has access to several different chew toys around the house and in her crate, and hasn't really exhibited signs of being interested in chewing any other part of her body. We stop her when we see her doing it, but more often than not, it's happening when we aren't around to stop it. The main reason we can tell it's happening is that she's got a black tail with a white paint dip at the end, and the paint dip is getting progressively smaller. some herding breeds can have symptoms similar to OCD in humans, if it's not a hot spot or allergies I'd check with the vet
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Feb 7, 2021 05:20
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Definitely try to get him in front of a behaviorist. Our rescue has some reactivity as well and we have a behaviorist that comes out to help train him. It will include desensitisation to other dogs that he has access to eventually. You may not have access to a friend with a chill dog, but the behaviorist will.
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Feb 7, 2021 05:43
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Bouillon Rube posted:Right, so to give some context my wife is pregnant and our 8-month old lab mix is still behaving like a loving idiot. He doesn’t have a mean bone in his body and has never shown a hint of aggression toward any human or animal, but he just has a ton of energy and doesn’t really listen to us despite quite a bit of at home training. If it was just me it would be fine, but we can’t have a crazy 45lb puppy throwing his weight at and trying to roughhouse with my wife or a newborn. Yeah, I don't think an e-collar is the right tool for that. He should however be able to respect boundaries, so crating him in those situations might be the better option. Just make sure that he does get stimulated.
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Feb 7, 2021 07:31
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Apollo and a friend in the snow!
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Feb 7, 2021 20:12
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StrixNebulosa posted:Apollo and a friend in the snow! Apollo, I love it. We're still figuring out names for our little lady (pictured below with one incredibly proud mama) and Artemis is high on the list.  Obviously naming a pet is a fool's errand since the nicknames will take over, but we're thinking Artemis -> Missy for short Savannah - Savvy or Annie for short I jokingly suggested "Kilo" to my weightlifting-obsessed partner and she is pushing hard for that one now
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Feb 8, 2021 20:17
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I'm a fan of giving dogs dignified names that are weighted with history. As a kid we had a laborador retriever named Newton, and my current dog is named Pavlov.
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Feb 8, 2021 20:42
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:I'm a fan of giving dogs dignified names that are weighted with history. As a kid we had a laborador retriever named Newton, and my current dog is named Pavlov. Savannah would be a stealth historical reference since our kitties are Sherman & Ember 
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Feb 8, 2021 20:45
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I had a huge list of names picked out when I got my puppy and I didn't use any of them. When I got her she just seemed like a Scout. I don't even especially like the name and it's getting more popular, which bugs me, but she is a Scoutydog and that's what she was going to be  It's not even related to her registered name at all.Mostly she is Scoot/Scooty puff/Scootaloo/Scooter Marie/Swine though so it doesn't really matter what her real name is.
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Feb 8, 2021 20:56
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:I'm a fan of giving dogs dignified names that are weighted with history. As a kid we had a laborador retriever named Newton, and my current dog is named Pavlov. I just stick with what they've been named when I grab 'em from the SPCA. My first dog was Bonnie and I wanted find a Clyde real bad. Found one but their personalities didn't mesh. I was going to break my rule and rename this one beagle I looked at, was going to name him Smeagol because how can you pass up "Smeagol the Beagle"???? But in the end he was, well, all the things that make Beagles pains in the asses according to the foster. So I just waited until I found something that was a good behavior match for Bonehead which is how I got dog #2, Gigi. Not a name I like particularly much, but "Squeegee" is a nickname that's really fun to say sooo If I actually got a puppy and got to name the animal myself, I'd probably just use some character from a fantasy series 
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Feb 8, 2021 20:59
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Apollo is his name, but he is also floofapoof, goobers, my favorite moron, Apollo! and other variants that make no sense. I love him very much 
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Feb 8, 2021 21:10
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:I'm a fan of giving dogs dignified names that are weighted with history. As a kid we had a laborador retriever named Newton, and my current dog is named Pavlov.
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Feb 8, 2021 21:46
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ImplicitAssembler posted:Yeah, I don't think an e-collar is the right tool for that. He should however be able to respect boundaries, so crating him in those situations might be the better option. Thanks for the feedback on this everyone. We’ve decided that an e-collar/prong collar is off the table, and have found a trainer who only uses reward-based training instead. Bonus pic of the rear end in a top hat in question 
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Feb 8, 2021 21:54
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Ours is Chamomile, the name she had from the shelter, but mostly it's Cammy for short, and if we use her full name in conversation she often gets her honorific, Miss Chamomile (I don't know why, I think it just flows). We''ll break out her full name if she's pretending not to hear us and she does know what it means. I use "child" when she's being extra, my partner uses "turd." You can probably tell what our good cop/bad cop dynamic is.  e: Here is the turd in question very aggrieved that there wasn't room on the couch for her: 
Quorum fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Feb 8, 2021 |
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Feb 8, 2021 21:55
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Bouillon Rube posted:Thanks for the feedback on this everyone. We’ve decided that an e-collar/prong collar is off the table, and have found a trainer who only uses reward-based training instead. Is this your first dog? Or at least your first young one? They can be an absolute tornado of destruction at that age, and while you can't assume every dog of a given breed will be a certain way, I've found that young labs and lab mixes are very prone to that destruction tendency. My current dog is a similar age, and is a lab/border collie mix. We've been working on redirection, and we've seen good progress. Now when he walks past a shoe or a blanket, he may nip the air near it, but he usually doesn't steal it anymore. I've seen him do this and then immediately go pick up a chew toy, and I think it's because we've been consistently replacing the object of his interest with something appropriate to play with.
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Feb 8, 2021 22:05
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WhiteHowler posted:Aww, what a cutie. I had dogs growing up, but I was a kid...so my parents really did most of the work. My wife grew up in a really strict Muslim household, so she had very little experience with dogs. A lot of the issue is that he’s extremely smart- we have a lot of puzzle toys, but he figures out even the “advanced” ones within a few minutes. So keeping him occupied with stuff is a constant challenge. Thankfully, he’s really not destructive towards property at all- he’s never hosed with furniture or floor molding for example. Really the main problems are: -jumping on/at my wife -chasing/harassing the cats (not in a predatory way at all, he thinks my bitchy 15lb tabby is his best friend. Unfortunately, his idea of what constitutes “fun” is quite a bit different from theirs. He’s gotten swatted pretty good a few times, but never seems to learn his lesson.)
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Feb 8, 2021 22:56
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Sab669 posted:I just stick with what they've been named when I grab 'em from the SPCA. This is what we've always done too. Ruby's only been here 3 weeks and I see some nicknames looming on the horizon, but Ruby's just her name. It just feels like, this is the dog we got, ya know? We didn't know anything about Dingo or Jada or Ruby when they moved in, doesn't feel right that we should rename them based on 0 knowledge.
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Feb 9, 2021 02:14
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My eleven month old pup has been throwing up his breakfast a lot lately. It looks to be mostly digested and happens hours after his last meal; I just can't figure out what's causing it. He eats it right back up and goes about his day. He used to throw up yellow bile on occasion, so we started feeding him more frequently. He also sometimes would throw up his entire, undigested meal less than half an hour after eating it, so we started feeding him in a puzzle bowl and putting some of his meal in a treat dispensing bowl. Those two have stopped. This is brand new, and it's happened 4 times in the last week. No other symptoms or change in behavior from what I can see, and his poop hasn't changed, nor have we been feeding him anything strange, just the same puppy chow and treats in moderation. I know dogs can be a little pukey but I'm starting to get worried about the poor boy! Riatsala fucked around with this message at 02:18 on Feb 9, 2021 |
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Feb 9, 2021 02:15
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cruft posted:This is what we've always done too. Ruby's only been here 3 weeks and I see some nicknames looming on the horizon, but Ruby's just her name. I can see where you're coming from, but on the other hand when I got Apollo he was under a year old and had already been through two name changes - he came in as "Tank" and the shelter renamed him to "Hank" and he is the least Hank-looking dog I've ever seen in my life. e: See? This is not a Hank. 
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Feb 9, 2021 02:20
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Renaming a puppy is fine. Bonnie was 3.5 years and Squeegee was 5.5 years and yea I dunno I feel like I don't know the dog's history and I don't want to overwrite that. It's weird but it's no biggie. Nicknames come either way.
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Feb 9, 2021 02:27
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Your dog doesn’t give a poo poo what you call it as long as it’s not late for dinner.
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Feb 9, 2021 02:30
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WhiteHowler posted:Aww, what a cutie. We try this but the pup just isn't interested in any fo his chews over shoes. He wants to destroy soft things and none of the things he's allowed to have are a nice to chew as a shoe. He's also smart, so he picks em' up to elicit attention and a free treat from dropping the shoe.
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Feb 9, 2021 02:49
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