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What an aggressively unexciting way to end a Macross TV series. Delta is ultimately a step down from Frontier in pretty much every way that matters. Even in terms of J-pop idols and their silly overproduced music videos. Pretty much everything leading up to Messer's pineapple salad'ing had hints of the show ultimately turning out to be really good, but it should be a serious warning sign when the best episode in your back-half is the clip-i-sode that goes over the franchise history with more respect than the animators paid to anything else in the series.
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Sep 26, 2016 07:10
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I need to go back to SDF but as slow as the postwar arc was there were some pretty memorable things even then. Delta felt like they were trying to aim even lower.
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Sep 26, 2016 07:43
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The postwar stuff is real cool since most shows would spend an episode at most on that sorta thing, and would never think of giving it a dozen or so episodes. I can even forgive how they fail back some characterization to keep it going since everything surrounding it is so strong.
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Sep 26, 2016 12:03
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Sdf remains the only show in the franchise to resolve a happy resolution to the main love triangle, right?
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Sep 26, 2016 12:04
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Tae posted:Sdf remains the only show in the franchise to resolve a happy resolution to the main love triangle, right? Seven's is pretty happy if I remember correctly. Basara doesn't seem much broken up about it.
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Sep 26, 2016 12:07
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Tae posted:Sdf remains the only show in the franchise to resolve a happy resolution to the main love triangle, right? Didn't it really only resolve it happily counting Flashback 2012? I thought the show itself just had the choice with no resolution for Minmei, while Flashback 2012 showed her being friends with both Misa and Hikaru, and setting off with them on the SDF-2? Mokinokaro posted:Seven's is pretty happy if I remember correctly. Basara doesn't seem much broken up about it. My recollection is that 7 had no resolution. Basara pays absolutely no attention to Mylene (or really anyone, not Rex or Emilia either) in the whole show, Dynamite and side stuff included, and only ever sees her as a little sister or slightly annoying friend. Mylene definitely never makes a decision, though Gamlin kind of makes one for her when he sets out to find Basara for her sake in Dynamite since he thinks she's lesser when he's not around. Still, Basara never shows romantic feelings for anyone in the show and comes off like he wouldn't care if Mylene chose Gamlin, since he probably wouldn't even realise she might have chosen different. 7 has the most non triangle in the Macross . Which makes it all the funnier when people on /m/ complain that Delta failed because Mirage wasn't a serious love interest. tsob fucked around with this message at 12:43 on Sep 26, 2016 |
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Sep 26, 2016 12:39
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tsob posted:Didn't it really only resolve it happily counting Flashback 2012? I thought the show itself just had the choice with no resolution for Minmei, while Flashback 2012 showed her being friends with both Misa and Hikaru, and setting off with them on the SDF-2? I guess there was Sivil in play as well?
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Sep 26, 2016 13:26
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MJP posted:Plot debates aside, https://twitter.com/amiamihobbynews/status/779243189571956736 For completionists or Mirage loyalists: http://news.amiami.jp/event/2016/09/48073.html You can just Ctrl-F ミラージュ if you don't feel like scrolling down a fuckton of cars and a handful of shipgirls
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Sep 26, 2016 15:40
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Hey guys we forgot what we were doing, so we're just gonna rip off the last episode of Frontier wholesale, including the bad guy's endgame, except without any of the plot buildup or character development associated with it, that's cool right Oh well. That was almost a cool space battle, at least.
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Sep 27, 2016 08:51
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roid is such a crappy villain
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Sep 27, 2016 08:52
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Welp. At least we got Walkure out of this. 
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Sep 27, 2016 09:51
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Yeah, definitely a disappointing finish. The main plot has some interesting things but the execution fell flat. Culture as a weapon never gets addressed. NUNS is guilty of a lot of poo poo and it's never really addressed by the Chaos crew. They just accept it and deal with it because Windermere invaded their tropical beach paradise planet. And then it gets into surprise protoculture stuff, which just gets pulled out of its rear end as a last minute supervillain powerup than anything revelatory. With the vajra, we learned that the Protoculture were fascinated and inspired by them. With this, we learn that apparently the galactic mind unifier specifically requires a Windermerian but is located on Ragna for some reason. And why would they build this? Unless it turns out the Protoculture were themselves equipped with hair runes, it's weird for them to build a system that they themselves couldn't use. Furthermore, with Windermerian women only having one distinct rune, the interface was clearly designed by sexists. Mirage's plot never really goes anywhere and that's disappointing. Her Jenius heritage feels pointless considering humanity's obsession with flying in the present as well as in the Macross universe. Sure, nuts like Isamu and Alto take it quite far but it doesn't really do her origin any justice. I'm not sure where they could've gone with this. Hayate and Freyja is sweet and all but it feels like they stretched things out too much so they could have that POWER OF LOVE right there at the end. The Aerial Knights are boring and too one note. If they're going to be persistent antagonists, they need more personality. As mentioned by others already, the battle choreography in Delta is terrible. They barely used their transformations and didn't even do plane fights all that well. Could've taken a page from the early bits of Plus' Big Dogfight to make it interesting at least. Instead we got sparkles and gotta go fast! Faster! Windermere is in a weird spot. They have a point about NUNS' conduct but they're behaving like complete bad guys too. There's absolute no hesitation to do terrible things in return. Furthermore, their treatment of anyone who isn't Windermerian is just plain bad guy behavior and they have absolutely no self-awareness. How many lives were ruined by var rampages while they were testing their thing? They don't necessarily need a Windermerian that questions the morality of their methods but the show fails at making them out to be unrepentant revengeance seekers. The other members of Delta Platoon are a complete waste. Better to drop them as a focus entirely so Messer, Mirage, and Hayate get more of a spotlight. Argas fucked around with this message at 11:00 on Sep 27, 2016 |
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Sep 27, 2016 10:34
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im just happy they didnt evaporate freya and instead she and hayate can be happy together for a meaningful amount of time
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Sep 27, 2016 12:34
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Deck crew are going to have to pull The Mop out again once Hayate brings the bird back.
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Sep 27, 2016 13:06
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Before the show aired I was hoping Walküre and the Delta Squadron would be made up of pilots and their "associated" singers, like people who had already had their series-spanning love triangle and figured all that business out already. For example Kaname and Messer would already be in a healthy relationship from previous adventures. NUNS or whomever figured out that Pilots + Singers is OP and made a super squadron out of that specific dynamic. Of course, Hayate and Freja would be the newcomers and idk something about Mirage too. Anyway last episode had no Ikenai Borderline, 2/10 would not giri giri.
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Sep 27, 2016 16:54
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ManSedan posted:Before the show aired I was hoping Walküre and the Delta Squadron would be made up of pilots and their "associated" singers, like people who had already had their series-spanning love triangle and figured all that business out already. For example Kaname and Messer would already be in a healthy relationship from previous adventures. NUNS or whomever figured out that Pilots + Singers is OP and made a super squadron out of that specific dynamic. Of course, Hayate and Freja would be the newcomers and idk something about Mirage too. I can understand where you got this idea because I kind of expected each Walkure member to have an associated "knight" as well, to go along with the idea that Walkure would actually be participating in combat in some way like in episode 1. I didn't mentally tie it to "every pilot is in love with their associated singer" but I definitely got the vibe that each pilot would work with one singer more closely than others for some reason.
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Sep 27, 2016 17:12
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Maybe that'll be in the next series. One of the singers will be someone who lost their True Love pilot, or doesn't want to be attached to anyone but gets paired with the plucky out of nowhere pilot who rescues her when a show suddenly went bad. Tests compiled from after the event will show that they're massively compatible and must therefor work together against their objections, but the show must go on!
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Sep 27, 2016 17:24
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i expected arad and chuck to be relevant at some point and for mirage to have an epiphany that would allow her to be the ace pilot she always wanted to be. delta squad was almost as lovely as the aerial knights.
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Sep 27, 2016 17:37
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For a lukewarm second half it was still a good final episode, the movie remake is going to be f a n t a s t i c.
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Sep 27, 2016 19:02
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Holy poo poo! Chuck's sister randomly appearing (bandages included) at the beach. What a bunch of crap!
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Sep 27, 2016 21:44
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... and the galactic federation (or NUNS) bombarded Windemere into the stone age. (the end)
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Sep 27, 2016 21:49
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I am massively disappointed in many ways, but you know what sums it up?ManSedan posted:Anyway last episode had no Ikenai Borderline, 2/10 would not giri giri. I'm gonna go drink. Actually I guess I couldn't help it. Still cold sober, but Rodenthar Drothman posted:Actually, no. I'm going full-out here. Rodenthar Drothman fucked around with this message at 01:11 on Sep 28, 2016 |
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Sep 28, 2016 01:01
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It's kind of weird how Delta feels like it would have benefited from another 12 episodes so the pacing wouldn't be so weird in places and they could of given everyone (or at least more of them) proper character arcs. Overall the only really satisfying thing was that Hayate actually was the one to fess up first. It's a shame since I liked Delta quite a bit but the ending while okay just wasn't a good bookend. Seriously needed more episodes to work with. Oh well, at least it gave us Freyja who is precious and I liked Walkure much more than I ever thought I would as I was worried it being focused on an idol group would be a horrible idea. Which perhaps it was honestly given everyone didn't really get an arc. All I know is I'll still be listening to Walkure alongside the rest of the Macross music I have for a good long time.
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Sep 28, 2016 01:35
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I'm listening to the mashup right now.
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Sep 28, 2016 02:26
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With the way Freyja's rune shines around Hayate, it will only take a couple of years for her to turn to stone. That is when Mirage will have her chance. If she doesn't find someone better before then, which she probably will.
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Sep 28, 2016 02:32
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Vadoc posted:I'm listening to the mashup right now.  Me too...
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Sep 28, 2016 03:14
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Overlord K posted:It's kind of weird how Delta feels like it would have benefited from another 12 episodes so the pacing wouldn't be so weird in places and they could of given everyone (or at least more of them) proper character arcs. No, the writers had plenty of time to tell their story and they were just bad at it in almost every conceivable way. 12 more episodes would be just 12 more episodes of mediocrity.
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Sep 28, 2016 03:19
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Maybe the series ended up as a wet fart of wasted potential but at least it gave is Walkure and their music. I'm not likely to rewatch it but a few of the songs are going in my playlist and Ikenai Borderline is going to make me smile whenever it comes up.
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Sep 28, 2016 03:19
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It feels like a 16-17 episode show they had to figure out how to stretch to 26.
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Sep 28, 2016 04:26
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trucutru posted:No, the writers had plenty of time to tell their story and they were just bad at it in almost every conceivable way. 12 more episodes would be just 12 more episodes of mediocrity. Yeah. Although it's not everyone's cup of tea, I think Iron Blooded Orphans is a good reference point here. About halfway in, people started talking about it having pacing issues and some people wondered how it would reach a satisfactory conclusion with the episodes it had left. And then it actually picked up the loving pace, and it managed to get done with the plot it needed to finish, no problem. Last episode had problems, but the pacing wasn't it. Macross Delta spent around a dozen episodes faffing about before the final. Time you could have used to, say, watch Mob Psycho, or One Punch Man, or Madoka, or FLCL followed by War In The Pocket. Giving it more time wouldn't mean time better spent setting up a finale. It would just be more time spent on nothing.
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Sep 28, 2016 04:35
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delta was a show that showed off all the wonderful toys it had, and then never did anything fun with them.
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Sep 28, 2016 04:53
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Like, this is that very special jewel of a series where some characters basically un-develop as the story progresses. Episode 1 Mikumo (out of pure potential) is more interesting than episode 25 Mikumo. Lack of development would be fine in an action series all about well-choreographed transforming robot outer-space dogfights but that was obviously not what the show is about so it wasn't a priority. Not that I can really find any actual priority because character/story development was also not it. I guess the main focus was to sell Walkure songs since they also didn't do a good job with the toys. Hell, Warera, Rori, and Konda from the original show (I am ashamed to know to mnemonic for their names) had more development than almost anybody in this thing. You can clearly see how they change during the series, while you could take Makina, Reina or many others from any point in the series and insert them into any other point and nobody would notice. Well, a dead Messer wouldn't be that good of a teacher for Hayate so I guess he actually got some development. trucutru fucked around with this message at 05:39 on Sep 28, 2016 |
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Sep 28, 2016 05:34
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trucutru posted:No, the writers had plenty of time to tell their story and they were just bad at it in almost every conceivable way. 12 more episodes would be just 12 more episodes of mediocrity. Since there was basically no willingness on the part of the writers to go with the concepts they pushed with Episodes 1 and 2, yeah. At some point, the writers decided to focus the story on the Evil Empire and give them Reasons for being utterly abhorrent shits to way more people than were ever affected by The Bomb, as opposed to really running with the Jpop Squad's misadventures. The entire narrative is tone deaf as hell, even given Macross' pretty bizarre outlook on war in general. It's honestly a little creepy that Windermere basically gets away scot-free from killing who knows how many people across an entire galaxy, because at the end of the day "they had reasons!" Even the deaths they do suffer in the war THEY started are treated casually and are of no consequence. At best they are explosions in the fore/background while our heroes plow through a generic defensive line nearly effortlessly. NUNS also had reasons to do their pre-emptive strike, but those are both considered to be bad and also get explored all of like five whole minutes, since the show spent half its run-time trying to drag out the mystery of WHO dropped the bomb and WHY. We are teased constantly with plot threads that end up going nowhere or are outright forgotten. In general, the conflict is just weakly conceived from the ground up, since like it most anime, it exists for the sake of conflict existing to begin with. Neither NUNS or Space Japan Who Didn't Do Anything Wrong feel like governments or organizations staffed by intelligent beings making rational or even irrational decisions. They just exist to have sides in a space war, and events occur between them not for any reasons that follow a logical chain of events, but rather that we need something to spur our protagonists and antagonists to have space battles almost entirely lacking in suspense and consequences up until the very end. A character dies in Delta squad not because This Is War, but rather because in Macross we expect to have a Sempai die for the sake of granting motivation to his comrades/fledgling pilots. And then, his death basically accomplishes nothing beyond that. Hayate clowns the White Knight almost immediately after taking up the mantle, and that's the most Messer gets until his offhand mention at the start of the final battle, and some flashback images. There are repeated attempts throughout Delta to really up the stakes, and it never fails to feel trite and convenient. There just HAPPENS to be a Protoculture super weapon in all the right locations that just HAPPEN to benefit the silly rune people's/ROID's (I will never tire of laughing at how dumb this name/character ultimately is) ambitions. There just HAPPENS to be a singer to counter our heroes. The windmereans just HAPPEN to have VFs that are perfect compliments to our heroes. Mikumo just HAPPENS to be the Key to the System. The System just HAPPENS to be capable of something akin to Instrumentality, and of course ONE particular Space Gendo just HAPPENS to know everything he needs to know about it so we can have our obligatory multi-song concert/space battle because if Frontier did it then we have to do it. This all gets capped off by the weakest sequel bait ever. "We'll have to deal with the Un Government someday!" declares the Littlest Emperor. So not only did nothing actually get resolved beyond dealing with some dude's sudden god complex and insecurity over his short lifespan, but Windermere still feels like they are the good guys after, well, everything. It's just so, so very stupid. I'm a hundred percent willing to accept that I'm expecting something out of Macross that it isn't and never has been willing to provide. However, Frontier, Plus, the Original series, and even ZERO never left me feeling anywhere near this negative about the things Macross uniquely does. I love those shows for what they are, even with the flaws they also possess. Delta inspires no desire to rewatch any single episode, or even relisten to any of the music. It doesn't even begin to approach the crazy awesome stuff Frontier had going on. Hell, that entire final Sheryl/Ranka medley during the last episode of Frontier alone is enough to eclipse the last two episodes of Delta.
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Sep 28, 2016 05:38
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I agree on just about everything except that 'no music' thing. Whoa, guy. Giri giri ai. Also do you remember? Woooow woow~ Rodenthar Drothman fucked around with this message at 06:15 on Sep 28, 2016 |
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Sep 28, 2016 06:10
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Rodenthar Drothman posted:Also do you remember? Woooow woow~ I don't even care for the original song so much, but I cannot stop listening to the EWF/Freyja mix.
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Sep 28, 2016 06:22
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fivegears4reverse posted:I'm a hundred percent willing to accept that I'm expecting something out of Macross that it isn't and never has been willing to provide. However, Frontier, Plus, the Original series, and even ZERO never left me feeling anywhere near this negative about the things Macross uniquely does. I love those shows for what they are, even with the flaws they also possess. Delta inspires no desire to rewatch any single episode, or even relisten to any of the music. It doesn't even begin to approach the crazy awesome stuff Frontier had going on. Hell, that entire final Sheryl/Ranka medley during the last episode of Frontier alone is enough to eclipse the last two episodes of Delta. I pretty much agree with your entire post except I feel like the first episode knocks things out of the park and is supremely entertaining/engaging as a series intro and I generally like all of the music in Delta and view it as one of the few things the series did consistently well. Also re: the show's episode count, the show absolutely doesn't need more episodes. If anything, they needed less episodes so they'd be forced to actually move the plot along meaningfully. They spent half the series's runtime spinning their wheels doing absolutely nothing but drawing out mysteries for pointlessly excessive amounts of time(WHO dropped the bomb??? WHY did they drop the bomb????? WHO is Mikumo really????).
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Sep 28, 2016 08:14
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Even eureka 7 ao had better pacing.
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Sep 28, 2016 09:03
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Well, both Frontier and Delta have great starts. There's a ton of spectacle in it and it's practically designed to capture viewers. On rewatch of episode 1, holy hell did Mikumo's character go nowhere. In the first episode she's basically playing a prank on Mirage by getting away from her to go undercover by herself. Edit: You have Mikumo hitching a ride on a valkyrie while still singing, then getting right up in the face of a var Regult and singing the pilot back to normal. Then later on she's running across debris while singing. poo poo's completely turned up to 10 and crazy and you can't help loving it. The rest of the series is basically barely worth a shrug. Argas fucked around with this message at 10:59 on Sep 28, 2016 |
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Sep 28, 2016 10:55
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Kawamori is a bit of anti-military fellow, isn't he? Or least an environmentalist based on Arjuna and other works from around that time. I bring this up because it just seemed like his use/treatment of UN Spacy/NUNS started to get really weird around the time of Frontier, almost as if he was reluctant to go back to having the main characters as part of an actual military force. So he's tried to have his cake and eat it to by making them PMCs in Frontier and Delta, and consequently made NUNS completely useless at everything and portrayed in a pretty negative light. I bring this up because it's a weakness in Delta's story that I don't think would've been present in SDF, Plus, or even 7 because the UN could just exist as this generic government/military force that isn't really insidious and rather just kind of there as a means to provide the Valkyries.
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Sep 28, 2016 13:13
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Yea, he keeps trying to make the characters part of a PMC, and went one step further in Delta by making Xaos almost a charity organisation with more focus on music than military anything. Though Sound Force in 7 was really the start of it and more civilian than either SMS or Xoas. The irony that PMCs are normally worse than actual militaries is weird though. Then again, it's possible he's doing it simply because being in a PMC gives the characters more flexibility to act on their own authority and in ways they couldn't in a real military. tsob fucked around with this message at 13:43 on Sep 28, 2016 |
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Sep 28, 2016 13:40
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