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Hillary Clinton lost because she and her campaign started sniffing their own farts a little too much and became convinced that they'd win by default. Most every other misstep can be traced from this dumbshit attitude culminating in a loss against Donald loving Trump, a race that shouldn't even have been close in the first place. She would likely have done better if she had been able to actually campaign on Bernie's policies, but this proved impossible due to her campaign's reflexive dismissal of everything that didn't it their internalized narrative. Anyway, Obama didn't create the problems that the Dems face, but he managed to paper over them or eight years due to being a charismatic and very talented campaigner. While this kept the GOP from burning down the country completely, it also let the rot within the party fester and now we're once again at the point where the only way forward the establishment dems can even envision is to hope that another super-charismatic candidate comes out of the woodwork and/or that Trump fucks up so bad that the dems actually win by default next time. EDIT: Paying the dog tax 
Cerebral Bore fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Apr 11, 2017 |
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Apr 11, 2017 19:47
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The Democratic leadership is old as hell and totally out of touch (when Pelosi has to fumble for an answer to who are the party's standard bearers and can only mention Obama and Hillary...) so I have no idea where they think another Obama level charismatic person is going to magically appear from.
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Apr 11, 2017 19:52
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Hollywood
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Apr 11, 2017 19:57
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Radish posted:The Democratic leadership is old as hell and totally out of touch (when Pelosi has to fumble for an answer to who are the party's standard bearers and can only mention Obama and Hillary...) so I have no idea where they think another Obama level charismatic person is going to magically appear from. Hasn't that the Democratic leadership is older than the CCCPs was in its last days been an on running joke since November
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Apr 11, 2017 19:58
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Cerebral Bore posted:Hillary Clinton lost because she and her campaign started sniffing their own farts a little too much and became convinced that they'd win by default. Most every other misstep can be traced from this dumbshit attitude culminating in a loss against Donald loving Trump, a race that shouldn't even have been close in the first place. Her campaign were a bunch of clueless idiots but I honestly don't think there was anything they could've done other than having a different candidate. People love to talk about how she didn't campaign in WI or MI but she was in PA heavily the whole 2 weeks leading up to the election and still lost PA.
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Apr 11, 2017 20:00
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mcmagic posted:Her campaign were a bunch of clueless idiots but I honestly don't think there was anything they could've done other than having a different candidate. People love to talk about how she didn't campaign in WI or MI but she was in PA heavily the whole 2 weeks leading up to the election and still lost PA. They could have not broken the most fundamental rule of strategy by convincing themselves that they had won already and anything that indicated the contrary had to be a nothingburger.
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Apr 11, 2017 20:05
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JeffersonClay posted:It certainly suggests we should view his evidence-free assertion with skepticism. All evidence is not valuable simply by virtue of existing. If someone can explain why evidence doesn't prove the point it's stated to prove, it is quite literally no better than no evidence at all. edit: I mean, I agree that rudatron's (I think) statement should be treated with skepticism, but the fact that Typo gave some evidence as a counterpoint doesn't really matter if someone can explain why that evidence doesn't prove the point he says it proves.
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Apr 11, 2017 20:11
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mcmagic posted:Would you like to compare her student loan tax credit plan to Trump's Student Loan plan? How about her modest minimum wage bump to Trump's plan? Or her debt free college plan to Trump's college plan? What about her mediocre criminal justice reform plan vs what Sessions is doing at DOJ now? it was all mediocre. she didn't have to sway trump voters, she had to attract voters who won't vote republican but aren't energized to vote dem. and there are a ton of those. but hillary was too dumb to do that so instead she puts up a bunch of middling policy as what she's running on. and anyone sane after obama knows she'll achieve maybe a tenth of what she promised, and a watered down version of that. so what's the motivation to vote for her? the only real one she gave was she was the not trump. and that wasn't enough to beat an orange pissbaby
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Apr 11, 2017 20:13
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Trump was able to flip poor white Obama voters and turn out poor white voters generally with racism, specifically promises to kick out the undocumented, heavily restrict immigration, stop investigating police brutality and shootings, reintroduce stop and frisk, and promote law and order. So insofar as Obama did DACA and DAPA, and used the department of Justice to hold racist police departments at least somewhat accountable, he's responsible for the backlash of white resentment that empowered Trump.
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Apr 11, 2017 20:14
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Condiv posted:it was all mediocre. she didn't have to sway trump voters, she had to attract voters who won't vote republican but aren't energized to vote dem. and there are a ton of those. but hillary was too dumb to do that so instead she puts up a bunch of middling policy as what she's running on. and anyone sane after obama knows she'll achieve maybe a tenth of what she promised, and a watered down version of that. so what's the motivation to vote for her? the only real one she gave was she was the not trump. and that wasn't enough to beat an orange pissbaby It wasn't about the policy though because her policy was right in line with Obama and he would've easily won an election against Trump. JeffersonClay posted:Trump was able to flip poor white Obama voters and turn out poor white voters generally with racism, specifically promises to kick out the undocumented, heavily restrict immigration, stop investigating police brutality and shootings, reintroduce stop and frisk, and promote law and order. So insofar as Obama did DACA and DAPA, and used the department of Justice to hold racist police departments at least somewhat accountable, he's responsible for the backlash of white resentment that empowered Trump. I'm pretty sure Clinton did just as well as Obama did in the lower income brackets.
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Apr 11, 2017 20:14
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mcmagic posted:It wasn't about the policy though because her policy was right in line with Obama and he would've easily won an election against Trump. lol no she was to the right of obama. obama promised a public option. her campaign was right around where obama's presidency was, but that's bad because obama's presidency was significantly right of his campaign.
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Apr 11, 2017 20:16
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Ytlaya posted:All evidence is not valuable simply by virtue of existing. If someone can explain why evidence doesn't prove the point it's stated to prove, it is quite literally no better than no evidence at all. The evidence isn't conclusive or dispositive, but there's a difference between insufficient and irrelevant. It could be true that despite winning the people for whom "cares about people like me" was the most important factor in their decision, more people thought Trump cared about people like them than thought Clinton did. Like it's mathematically possible, but it's not necessarily likely. And it's even less likely that it was the determining factor in these voters' decisions. The evidence provided, in the absence of better, contradictory evidence, should lead us to be more skeptical of the claim it was meant to contradict. mcmagic posted:. She didn't. Typo posted:2012: JeffersonClay fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Apr 11, 2017 |
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Apr 11, 2017 20:24
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Lets all bitch about how horrible Clinton's student loan plan in the context of what we're dealing with in this administration: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-04-11/devos-undoes-obama-student-loan-protections quote:Education Secretary Betsy DeVos on Tuesday rolled back an Obama administration attempt to reform how student loan servicers collect debt. The former president's administration issued a pair (PDF) of memorandums (PDF) last year requiring that the government's Federal Student Aid office, which services $1.1 trillion in government-owned student loans, do more to help borrowers manage, or even discharge, their debt.
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Apr 11, 2017 20:49
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Let's talk about my Free College and Booze and Guns and Weed plan. It's simple: When you graduate from high school, the government sends you to college, and if you graduate, you get all the booze, weed, and guns you want. It's a really good plan and the one thing stopping me from enacting it is that I didn't run against and lose to Donald Trump.
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Apr 11, 2017 20:59
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Granted, I think there is a difference between policy you actually promote and policy that is written on some website that no one ever reads and refuse to mention otherwise. As for economics, Trump had an populist economic platform: anti-free trade, anti-immigration and "selective" otherwise depending on he talked to. That said, he actually promoted the hell out of it especially in the rust belt. He was a successive snake oil salesman, but usually those guys do well when there is no real hope to the contrary. The American public is trapped between a rock and a hard-place, and they are desperately trying to escape but all the exit doors are just painted on to the concrete.
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Apr 11, 2017 21:01
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mcmagic posted:Lets all bitch about how horrible Clinton's student loan plan in the context of what we're dealing with in this administration: why state the obvious? trump is horrible. he's a republican. hillary should not be republican-lite, but she was and it cost her the election
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Apr 11, 2017 21:02
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Condiv posted:why state the obvious? trump is horrible. he's a republican. hillary should not be republican-lite, but she was and it cost her the election Giving Tax Credits for student loan relief isn't "republican lite" it's good policy and would help a lot of people.
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Apr 11, 2017 21:10
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mcmagic posted:Giving Tax Credits for student loan relief isn't "republican lite" it's good policy and would help a lot of people. Because it still doesn't solve the problem of "How do I pay for college without taking out enormous loans I'll never be able to pay off or discharge?"
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Apr 11, 2017 21:11
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mcmagic posted:Giving Tax Credits for student loan relief isn't "republican lite" it's good policy and would help a lot of people. yeah i can imagine all the poor people who are gonna be able to take advantage of that tax credit. i remember my minimum wage friends asking for help with their 1040-ez. tax credits are the shittiest way to help the poor that's ever existed
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Apr 11, 2017 21:16
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KomradeX posted:I think with the whole the person is smart/ people are stupid I've always seen as an indictment of mass hysteria and mob thinking. Where people will ignore all rationality and behave reactionary and lash out. I think the US inbetween 9/11 and the Iraq war going south I think is a good demonstration of that thing. Not that mass action is always wrong but hysteria does sweep crowds.
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Apr 11, 2017 21:17
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JeffersonClay posted:Trump was able to flip poor white Obama voters and turn out poor white voters generally with racism, specifically promises to kick out the undocumented, heavily restrict immigration, stop investigating police brutality and shootings, reintroduce stop and frisk, and promote law and order. So insofar as Obama did DACA and DAPA, and used the department of Justice to hold racist police departments at least somewhat accountable, he's responsible for the backlash of white resentment that empowered Trump. I don't think his racism itself helped his turnout much...but it didn't drive people away, either, and it caused the Clinton campaign to make a number of unforced errors by focusing on the racism rather than the messages he wrapped in that racism.
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Apr 11, 2017 21:18
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redneck nazgul posted:Because it still doesn't solve the problem of "How do I pay for college without taking out enormous loans I'll never be able to pay off or discharge?" She also had a decent (though not as good as Bernie's plan) plan for "debt free college that would've been a massive improvement over the status quo. Condiv posted:yeah i can imagine all the poor people who are gonna be able to take advantage of that tax credit. i remember my minimum wage friends asking for help with their 1040-ez. Student Debt after the fact isn't a poverty issue. Most of the people with a lot of student debt have college degrees and can benefit from tax credits. No republican has a coherent plan to help people with student debt or to make college more affordable. They don't think government has a role in helping those people. mcmagic fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Apr 11, 2017 |
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Apr 11, 2017 21:28
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It was better than bernies because having a job program is essential to remove the barrier of the uncertainty of being able to support your family and self while in college.
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Apr 11, 2017 21:32
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I thought her student debt relief plan was for people who succeeded, by becoming entrepreneurs?
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Apr 11, 2017 21:32
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mcmagic posted:She also had a decent (though not as good as Bernie's plan) plan for "debt free college that would've been a massive improvement over the status quo. you realize that underemployment is a big big thing nowadays? starbucks baristas with bachelors degrees are a thing. likewise, while some of these people can do their taxes well enough to claim hillary's tax credit on their own, a lot can't. that's why tax prep agencies make so much money. and that's a big part of why tax credits suck rear end for helping the poor. they're the least well equipped, degree or no, to partake of such benefits. tax credits are a really lovely way to help the poor (it's real good for helping the rich tho).
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Apr 11, 2017 21:35
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Condiv posted:you realize that underemployment is a big big thing nowadays? starbucks baristas with bachelors degrees are a thing. likewise, while some of these people can do their taxes well enough to claim hillary's tax credit on their own, a lot can't. that's why tax prep agencies make so much money. and that's a big part of why tax credits suck rear end for helping the poor. they're the least well equipped, degree or no, to partake of such benefits. tax credits are a really lovely way to help the poor (it's real good for helping the rich tho). Actually her plan might have helped your hypothetical Starbucks barista in that it gave employers credits for helping their employees pay off their student loans. A lot of companies are looking into providing student loan assistance as a fringe benefit (and I'm sure more will as this bubble grows) and her plan might have put good incentives in place to make that happen faster.
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Apr 11, 2017 21:38
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Clinton definitely talked a lot about policy... http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/3/8/14848636/hillary-clinton-tv-ads Wait, no she didn't
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Apr 11, 2017 21:40
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mcmagic posted:Actually her plan might have helped your hypothetical Starbucks barista in that it gave employers credits for helping their employees pay off their student loans. A lot of companies are looking into providing student loan assistance as a fringe benefit (and I'm sure more will as this bubble grows) and her plan might have put good incentives in place to make that happen faster. low-wage employers never go through with those plans. when you ask them to they always push it off i remember my minimum wage employer promising me to help with university costs if i worked 30hrs a week and got good grades. come time to collect, they didn't want to talk about it anymore. never saw a cent you're living a fantasy Condiv fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Apr 11, 2017 |
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Apr 11, 2017 21:42
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Have you considered that Bernie's plan didn't shovel enough cash to large multinational corporations employing people in low-wage, no-future jobs
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Apr 11, 2017 21:43
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Condiv posted:low-wage employers never go through with those plans. when you ask them to they always push it off It's valid to argue that tax credits might not be the best way to do this but you also can't deny that her plan would've helped a lot of people. It''s like criticizing the ACA for not being single payer while ignoring the people that it's helped. And again, the republicans don't even think that this is an issue that the government should address other than making it easier for scam for-profit universities to rip you off. It's not even in the same universe.
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Apr 11, 2017 21:45
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mcmagic posted:It's valid to argue that tax credits might not be the best way to do this but you also can't deny that her plan would've helped a lot of people. It''s like criticizing the ACA for not being single payer while ignoring the people that it's helped. And again, the republicans don't even think that this is an issue that the government should address other than making it easier for scam for-profit universities to rip you off. It's not even in the same universe. It's really disingenuous to compare PPACA to Hillary's sham college plan. The PPACA actually helps people, despite being a huge handout, unlike this poo poo: quote:=Help an estimated 25 million borrowers by allowing them to lower their payments by refinancing at current interest rates
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Apr 11, 2017 21:48
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mcmagic posted:It's valid to argue that tax credits might not be the best way to do this but you also can't deny that her plan would've helped a lot of people. It''s like criticizing the ACA for not being single payer while ignoring the people that it's helped. And again, the republicans don't even think that this is an issue that the government should address other than making it easier for scam for-profit universities to rip you off. It's not even in the same universe. it's not a solution when a lot of graduates are coming out of university with 60k in debt and little to no job prospects. she needed to offer relief and she knew people wanted help, and she chose to ignore that for tax credits bullshit that hardly helps anyone but the well off. and the ACA is falling apart because the public option is missing, meaning the insurance cos don't have to be honest
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Apr 11, 2017 21:49
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e: ^^drat, beatenmcmagic posted:It's valid to argue that tax credits might not be the best way to do this but you also can't deny that her plan would've helped a lot of people. It''s like criticizing the ACA for not being single payer while ignoring the people that it's helped. And again, the republicans don't even think that this is an issue that the government should address other than making it easier for scam for-profit universities to rip you off. It's not even in the same universe. protip: he's gonna do exactly that. why is mcmagic the reasonable one in this topic. how does a thread even get to that state
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Apr 11, 2017 21:49
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A big flaming stink posted:e: ^^drat, beaten Well considering PPACA literally gave healthcare to those who had no other options before while Hillary's college plan allows people who are successful entrepreneurs to write off less than one year of their tuition...
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Apr 11, 2017 21:50
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call to action posted:It's really disingenuous to compare PPACA to Hillary's sham college plan. The PPACA actually helps people, despite being a huge handout, unlike this poo poo:
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Apr 11, 2017 21:52
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mcmagic posted:Pretty sure there are people who would benefit from a lot of the things in that plan... I know I would. Better make sure your benefit is prioritized over fighting for actually affordable education for future generations, then
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Apr 11, 2017 21:53
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A big flaming stink posted:e: ^^drat, beaten last i checked, public option isn't single payer. it's a good balance against the private insurance cos and keeps them honest.... if one existed but worthless dems ripped it out and now insurance cos are threatening to abandon the exchanges cause they aren't making enough money
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Apr 11, 2017 21:53
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call to action posted:Better make sure your benefit is prioritized over fighting for actually affordable education for future generations, then I said a billion time I prefer Bernie's plan. But you said her plan helps no one which is just not true.
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Apr 11, 2017 21:54
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i wish i had the kind of disposible income that i could start a business and get 3 years deferment instead i study at a foreign university and get no deferments at all because the US does not recognize foreign universities as being in university
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Apr 11, 2017 21:57
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mcmagic posted:I said a billion time I prefer Bernie's plan. But you said her plan helps no one which is just not true. You're right, it could help people in a few weird niche situations in some pretty minor ways. I guess that is exactly the same as expanding Medicaid and ensuring you can get insurance even if you've been sick before
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Apr 11, 2017 21:57
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