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Haven't the wives of Jensen Ackles and Jared Padalecki had to deal with all sorts of nonsense from the Dean/Sam and Jensen/Jared Supernatural shippers? Some people just have no shame and take their fandoms/crushes/whatever too far now with ease of access. Famous people have always been getting weird letters from fans or whatever, but it's like times a million now.
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# ? Nov 10, 2017 08:31 |
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# ? Jun 3, 2024 21:47 |
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basic hitler posted:Brace yourself for backlash in general. Someone will get hit by this that the general public really likes, and can't accept the accusations against. At that point false accussation wont matter. There is going to be a saturation point as well. Hollywood will not blacklist everyone to the detriment of its own economy beyond a certain point. People will not be willing to let go of their most beloved idols, no matter what they're accused or even convicted of. Permanently blacklisting people is also not really a great strategy.
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# ? Nov 10, 2017 08:31 |
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esperterra posted:Haven't the wives of Jensen Ackles and Jared Padalecki had to deal with all sorts of nonsense from the Dean/Sam and Jensen/Jared Supernatural shippers? Some people just have no shame and take their fandoms/crushes/whatever too far now with ease of access. Jensen's wife had 'fans' call security on her for being a whore at one of the cons. Supernatural fans are loving insane.
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# ? Nov 10, 2017 08:39 |
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The Cameo posted:The rumor that's always gone around Hollywood is actually the opposite, that David Geffen got very handsy with him when he was just breaking in (the period just post Bill & Ted and My Own Private Idaho). I'm interested in hearing about this. what kind of rumors?
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# ? Nov 10, 2017 08:57 |
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basic hitler posted:Brace yourself for backlash in general. Someone will get hit by this that the general public really likes, and can't accept the accusations against. At that point false accussation wont matter. There is going to be a saturation point as well. Hollywood will not blacklist everyone to the detriment of its own economy beyond a certain point. People will not be willing to let go of their most beloved idols, no matter what they're accused or even convicted of. Who has a career after sexual assault accusations will probably depend on a number of things. Severity of the accusations, the number, what direction your career was trending prior to the accusations, talent and quality of the work, who your friends are, how famous the person/people accusing you are, how old you are, if you deny vs. if you own up to it, etc. There's no single equation to decide whether or not someone will ever work in this town again, and it might be a very, very long process, but it won't be impossible for some fo these men to continue working, or to lay low for a while and then return slowly. Look at Mel Gibson, for example. He came to America in the mid-1980s and during the first decade or so, he was a huge star who dealt with alcoholism quite a bit, and didn't really lack for work when he wanted it and starred in a huge action franchise. He said some dumb homophobic poo poo in the early 90s but that didn't really put a damper on his career. He continued essentially normally until Passion came out, when he started to get criticism for his anti-semitism, and then in 2006, right before Apocalypto came out was the first incident that actually affected his career (the DUI/Sugartits thing) and it took about 5 years (during which the tapes of him yelling horrible racist abuse at his second wife came out) before Jodie Foster put him in The Beaver, then another 4 years (during which RDJ advocated for forgiving Gibson) before Hacksaw Ridge came out and everyone loved it and now he's in a big comedy coming out tomorrow. It took famous friends and high quality work, but a violently abusive anti-semite got work again within 10 years of getting arrested for a DUI and blaming the Jews for ruling the world and yelling that he hoped his wife would get raped by a pack of n******. Weinstein might be long gone, but I definitely don't think we've seen the last of guys like Spacey or Louie. People liked them too much before, and they're too talented, for better or worse. They'll get one gig, and then people will say "hey i remember him" and they'll go on some big apology tour and Hollywood will welcome them back with open arms.
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# ? Nov 10, 2017 09:07 |
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NOOOOOOOOO NOT MATTHEW WEINER wasnt he working on some new show gently caress
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# ? Nov 10, 2017 12:04 |
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DC Murderverse posted:Who has a career after sexual assault accusations will probably depend on a number of things. Severity of the accusations, the number, what direction your career was trending prior to the accusations, talent and quality of the work, who your friends are, how famous the person/people accusing you are, how old you are, if you deny vs. if you own up to it, etc. There's no single equation to decide whether or not someone will ever work in this town again, and it might be a very, very long process, but it won't be impossible for some fo these men to continue working, or to lay low for a while and then return slowly. Louie might get back to the inner circle in 5-10 years, but Spacey may very well go to jail, there's now a makeshift survivor community of people he's abused. Multiple stories paint him as a huge rear end in a top hat even if he didn't try to tug on your junk. He's beyond done. Name Change fucked around with this message at 14:06 on Nov 10, 2017 |
# ? Nov 10, 2017 14:03 |
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Doctor Nick posted:I'm interested in hearing about this. what kind of rumors? Sexual favors in exchange for "making you a star, kid!" by pressuring a label he owned/had sway with the higher-ups of to give you/your band a big push, getting you a slot on a star's tour, getting you to a more advanced step in the audition process, the quid quo pro sort of stuff that Hollywood has traded in since time immemorial. Given his career stretches back to 1970, and given the norms of the eras he had massive power in, it shouldn't be a real shock. Keanu is the only person I've heard definitively tied to Geffen deciding to get a little bit, give a little bit with a hot young star on the verge of a breakthrough, but it wouldn't surprise me if a name like River Phoenix came up. Me, I'm still waiting for the Jeff Epstein shoe to drop, especially in the ripple of Kevin Spacey's outing (Spacey was close with Epstein) and that dude's registered sex offender status. There's always been smoke around his private plane flights over international waters. That one is explosive as the stories around that involve two Presidents, both of whom have a history of sexual assault! Never mind the princes and Nobel laureates and the whole private island thing (Little St. James).
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# ? Nov 10, 2017 14:58 |
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The stand-up comedy scene seems pretty willing to allow for second chances. Look at Paul Ruebens or Richard Pryor. Obviously their respective scandals don't quite exactly correlate to Louie's in terms of scope, nature, or predatory behavior, but it feels like if given enough time he'll get his redemption tour. The only x-factor is if there's more waiting in the wings. The whole "shoving a lady into a bathroom stall" bit from the Times article certainly implies that there might be. Spacey, on the other hand, is scorched earth. Not only is he a notorious rear end in a top hat in general, but his misconduct stretched far and wide, and the hole he's in only seems to be getting deeper with each passing day. Like Weinstein, his name is absolutely radioactive now. He's become synonymous with this moment of sexual assault awareness that is happening, and deservedly so. Edit: to clarify, I'm not saying one assault is better or worse than another. All are equally sickening, and my heart genuinely goes out to the victims of Louie, Spacey, and everyone else that has been exposed. I was speaking specifically in terms of the respective cultures. With Spacey being fired from House of Cards and cut from All The Money In The World, the axe has already dropped. Tart Kitty fucked around with this message at 15:18 on Nov 10, 2017 |
# ? Nov 10, 2017 15:09 |
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Unless I missed something, the only thing Paul Reubens did was jerk off in a porn theater by himself. Shouldn't have even been a scandal.
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# ? Nov 10, 2017 15:23 |
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precision posted:Unless I missed something, the only thing Paul Reubens did was jerk off in a porn theater by himself. Shouldn't have even been a scandal. Absolutely 100% agree. But I remember when it happened: it basically t-boned his entire career for like, a decade. Again, the correlation to Louie isn't exact. I was using it as an example of how the stand up comedy scene tends to give second chances, not trying to invoke a comparison to Louie's behavior, or his victims. Edit: and look, I might be completely wrong. There's never been this kind of exposure on celebrity predatory behavior before. If feels like a sea change, and a welcome one at that. It's completely possible that Louie C.K. becomes forever toxic because of this. And if that happens, it is completely deserved. Like to me, I can't really see myself supporting his work going forward, apology or no. There's some bells that can't be unrung. Tart Kitty fucked around with this message at 15:34 on Nov 10, 2017 |
# ? Nov 10, 2017 15:28 |
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Yeah, I was just making sure I hadn't missed anything. It is remarkably difficult to figure out how you're supposed to "come forward" with information if you don't have a lawyer or any money to hire one and are not a famous person. A friend of mine wants to do so but has no idea how.
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# ? Nov 10, 2017 15:35 |
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precision posted:Yeah, I was just making sure I hadn't missed anything. At this point contacting a newspaper like the NY Times is feasible. A few months ago it probably would have been ignored, less so now.
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# ? Nov 10, 2017 15:43 |
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Quite a few of the articles that have come out have included anonymous testimony. If your friend just wants to get their story out there so that their pain is considered and accounted for, an email from a burner account to a publication might be a relatively safe way of doing it.
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# ? Nov 10, 2017 15:45 |
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basic hitler posted:Brace yourself for backlash in general. Someone will get hit by this that the general public really likes, and can't accept the accusations against. At that point false accussation wont matter. There is going to be a saturation point as well. Hollywood will not blacklist everyone to the detriment of its own economy beyond a certain point. People will not be willing to let go of their most beloved idols, no matter what they're accused or even convicted of. Pedro De Heredia posted:Permanently blacklisting people is also not really a great strategy.
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# ? Nov 10, 2017 15:46 |
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Fart City posted:Edit: to clarify, I'm not saying one assault is better or worse than another. All are equally sickening, and my heart genuinely goes out to the victims of Louie, Spacey, and everyone else that has been exposed. I was speaking specifically in terms of the respective cultures. With Spacey being fired from House of Cards and cut from All The Money In The World, the axe has already dropped. All aren't "equal" - they're different levels of wrong. There is a large difference between Louie CK having a jack off fetish and asking women if he could go for it right away (and doing it as soon as he got a yes) and someone threatening people's careers if they don't do it and calling out special forces against them to ruin their careers. There's more than an either/or dichotomy here, and a lot has to do with the nuance of success, consent, and implied power, and a longer discussion about how men who normally got to where they are by taking a lot of chances and being aggressive and using every means at their disposal have an issue with doing that same thing, to varying degrees, in sexual situations.
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# ? Nov 10, 2017 16:22 |
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I mean, I get the point you are trying to make, and a close examination of this specific moment in society is both welcome and necessary, but I'm gonna go ahead and keep feeling how I personally feel about sexual assault/harassment.
Tart Kitty fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Nov 10, 2017 |
# ? Nov 10, 2017 16:35 |
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Timeless Appeal posted:I'd argue it is. Part of the problem with sexual harassment is that the stakes are really out of whack. The abusers can do what they do with a relatively small amount of risk whereas the abused face a disproportionate amount of risk if they speak out. It's a matter of changing who's afraid. Spacey and CK will still live lives of comfort and ease. But them being made an example of hopefully sends a message to people like them. I'm not sure about that. I don't really think it's true that 'abusers can do what they do with a relatively small amount of risk'. The magnitude of the consequences that abusers face is pretty large: they can lose their jobs, careers, be tried under the criminal justice system and possibly even go to jail. That is, and has been true, for a long time. What's small is the likelihood that they'll face those consequences. I think that likelihood is small for reasons unrelated to the magnitude (the culture around believing accusations, people's support of celebrities, the difficulty of proving an accusation, etc.). This logic isn't very different than saying that harsher punishments (like the death penalty) are an effective deterrent to crime. The idea that they're going to be affected by this measure is undercut by your comment that they'll "still live lives of comfort and ease". Is that just an observation? Is it a prerequisite? If Louis CK loses all his money in lawsuits, will he be un-blacklisted? How does this work? I think it's important to separate the morality of these issues (and the society we want to build) from the economics of the issue. Kevin Spacey's scenes in Scott's movie are being reshot because the people who made that movie want to make money off of it, and they consider that, right now, reshooting is better than releasing with Spacey. Louis CK's specials are off HBO's platform because HBO considers it bad reputation to have their audience see Louis CK's face right now. These are just financial decisions. There's nothing moral or well-thought out about them. The criminal justice system, flawed as it is, at least has a certain logic. There are different levels of crime, ranked by severity. There are maximum and minimum penalties. There are extenuating factors. And there is some sense that, once a debt to society has been repaid, one is able to re-enter it. The court of public pressure doesn't have that. Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Nov 10, 2017 |
# ? Nov 10, 2017 16:47 |
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Fart City posted:I mean, I get the point you are trying to make, and a close examination of this specific moment in society is both welcome and necessary, but I'm gonna go ahead and keep feeling how I personally feel about sexual assault. Well, just as an example, Louis CK didn't commit sexual assault from the current reports. He asked permission from all, did not coerce, none were his direct employees as I understand; he was just more successful than they were in the same field. He is accused of sexual misconduct, not assault, for that reason.There are different categories of harassment/assault/rape for very important reasons, and they have different max penalties for those reasons. It's not just a "semantics" issue, nor is it excusing someone from doing wrong things, either. But the way you approach and deal with an actual predator that did things unrelentingly is different than you approach men who didn't understand how to maintain safer boundaries so they didn't make people feel uncomfortable and threatened, especially since practically all men have been guilty of that to some degree somewhere in their lives (in many cases, misreading things or not understanding what they were doing, due to a mix of being taught by media and other men, and societal gender roles creating different reactions to the same actions between genders).
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# ? Nov 10, 2017 16:48 |
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esperterra posted:Haven't the wives of Jensen Ackles and Jared Padalecki had to deal with all sorts of nonsense from the Dean/Sam and Jensen/Jared Supernatural shippers? Some people just have no shame and take their fandoms/crushes/whatever too far now with ease of access. Yeah.
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# ? Nov 10, 2017 16:54 |
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Darko posted:Well, just as an example, Louis CK didn't commit sexual assault from the current reports. He asked permission from all, did not coerce, none were his direct employees as I understand; he was just more successful than they were in the same field. He is accused of sexual misconduct, not assault, for that reason.There are different categories of harassment/assault/rape for very important reasons, and they have different max penalties for those reasons. I updated my post to clarify that I was talking about both sexual assault and harassment, and did so before your reply. Didn't want to come off that I'm stealth--dodging the discussion here. You are right: what CK and Spacey did do fall into two different categories of abuse, and that should be considered in how things move forward in both their respective careers, and in terms of legal response. I do take issue with you implying that it's not "fair" for me to find the actions of both men equally sickening, however. That's a personal reaction on my part, influenced by my own life experiences. Which I'm of course entitled to. I do appreciate the clarity and thought you're putting into this discussion. I do think that it's important to examine the different levels of what we're seeing here. Like, CK is a scumbag creep who intruded on the personal safety of those he acted out his fetish in front of, but it's not quite the same as hiring ex-Mossad agents to befriend someone under false pretenses. The thing is, as much of a cultural moment as this is, it's also extemely personal for a lot of the people who are finding themselves in these discussions. I think it's important to keep that in consideration, which, honestly, almost everyone here has been doing already.
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# ? Nov 10, 2017 16:58 |
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Fart City posted:I updated my post to clarify that I was talking about both sexual assault and harassment, and did so before your reply. Didn't want to come off that I'm stealth--dodging the discussion here. You are right: what CK and Spacey did do fall into two different categories of abuse, and that should be considered in how things move forward in both their respective careers, and in terms of legal response. I do take issue with you implying that it's not "fair" for me to find the actions of both men equally sickening, however. That's a personal reaction on my part, influenced by my own life experiences. Which I'm of course entitled to. I agree with your personal feelings being your own, and don't want to come off like I find your feelings not "fair." This is one of the few places online I've seen where a nuanced discussion takes place without people just automatically taking extreme sides either. I also think the empathy/having been there creates a kind of two sided discussion, as well. Women, unfortunately, almost all have dealt with a man being too aggressive or harassing them to various degrees, if not worse, and thus can easily project situations based on their feelings at those times. Men, on the other hand, have almost all misread situations in the dating world, or made moves they thought were obvious and got shot down, and thus many of them project their situation (and fear of being ruined by a mistake) on situations like Louis CK, which creates a lot of the back and forth on this particular issue that I'm reading online in comments. I mean, personally, things like this make me wonder if what I thought was a clear "yes" in any given occasion in the past was actually a "yes," and there's an amount of fear that comes up with that and a kneejerk reaction that has to be buried. The other side issue is that societal gender imbalance means that successful men are now in a precarious position as they have a level of implied power that they may not necessarily have grown up with, that informs consent differently. My response to all of that is that we just need to do better, as men, and teach other men better, and then we might not have to worry about making mistakes in the future. But when it comes to the Weinsteins of the world, it's just a clear "screw that crap, no excuse for being a predator." Darko fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Nov 10, 2017 |
# ? Nov 10, 2017 17:06 |
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Darko posted:My response to all of that is that we just need to do better, as men, and teach other men better, and then we might not have to worry about making mistakes in the future. On this, there is no daylight between us, my friend. It's rare to have a teachable moment of this caliber fall into the social consciousness. The impetus is on each of us as an individual to insure that it does not go to waste.
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# ? Nov 10, 2017 17:24 |
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DC Murderverse posted:Who has a career after sexual assault accusations will probably depend on a number of things. Severity of the accusations, the number, what direction your career was trending prior to the accusations, talent and quality of the work, who your friends are, how famous the person/people accusing you are, how old you are, if you deny vs. if you own up to it, etc. There's no single equation to decide whether or not someone will ever work in this town again, and it might be a very, very long process, but it won't be impossible for some fo these men to continue working, or to lay low for a while and then return slowly. At the risk of sounding like a Gibson apologist, saying some pretty hosed up poo poo and even domestic abuse are a lot more relatable and forgivable by most people than using your position of power and influence to trawl for and abuse women in a mega-creepy and predatory way. Gibson also gets the crutch of substance abuse.
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# ? Nov 10, 2017 17:35 |
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Lots of good words from good people in this thread. This is a topic I struggle to put into words - for personal reasons of the obvious kind - so it's really helpful for me to read some eloquent, nuanced, compassionate discussion. Thank you, folks!
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# ? Nov 10, 2017 17:37 |
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AlternateAccount posted:At the risk of sounding like a Gibson apologist, saying some pretty hosed up poo poo and even domestic abuse are a lot more relatable and forgivable by most people than using your position of power and influence to trawl for and abuse women in a mega-creepy and predatory way. Gibson also gets the crutch of substance abuse. Also that most men don't have this kind of relative power, and have nothing to relate it to, and can thus "holier than thou" in these kinds of cases. I see a lot of "quiet" reactions from bosses/CEOs/wealthy/ultra successful men, where a lot of them (note, probably all) have leveraged their wealth and power for attraction and sex, and a lot of outrage from 9-5 workers on my feed who probably secretly dreamed of being rich and powerful and being able to pick up women due to it but never did. Meanwhile, Gibson is the crazy drunk uncle that practically everyone can relate to.
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# ? Nov 10, 2017 17:46 |
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Darko posted:Also that most men don't have this kind of relative power, and have nothing to relate it to, and can thus "holier than thou" in these kinds of cases. Yeah, there's zero risk of the mass populace automatically judging themselves by condemning a hyper creep like Weinstein. But everyone's said some fully stupid poo poo whilst inebriated. Maybe not exhortations of gang rape, but still.
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# ? Nov 10, 2017 17:51 |
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AlternateAccount posted:At the risk of sounding like a Gibson apologist, saying some pretty hosed up poo poo and even domestic abuse are a lot more relatable and forgivable by most people than using your position of power and influence to trawl for and abuse women in a mega-creepy and predatory way. Gibson also gets the crutch of substance abuse. Gibson never got physically violent with anyone AFAIK, either.
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# ? Nov 10, 2017 18:21 |
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viral spiral posted:Gibson never got physically violent with anyone AFAIK, either. I looked into that, actually, because I didn't think so. Apparently be plea bargained/no contested a misdemeanor domestic violence charge. No idea what that stemmed from or what evidence there was. Clearly, regardless of whether he did or not, most people don't know/think he did.
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# ? Nov 10, 2017 18:24 |
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Mel Gibson was AAA list with powerful friends, in an era where this was frankly a less important issue. He had ugly marriage breakups (involving restraining orders), he's an antisemite fundy, and he's mysteriously gotten breaks from law enforcement whenever they felt they could chance to give him one. If he were any ordinary person, to find him you'd have to look in the bottom of a hole somewhere.
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# ? Nov 10, 2017 18:35 |
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AlternateAccount posted:I looked into that, actually, because I didn't think so. Apparently be plea bargained/no contested a misdemeanor domestic violence charge. No idea what that stemmed from or what evidence there was. Clearly, regardless of whether he did or not, most people don't know/think he did. His ex-wife Robyn told the court she never experienced any physical abuse from Gibson; so there's that, too.
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# ? Nov 10, 2017 18:46 |
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It's frankly naive to think this will make people in other fields more willing to come forward or reject coercion. Nothing has changed about the dynamics of power for anyone who can't leverage media attention against their abusers, which virtually no one but celebrities victims or victims of celebrities can do
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# ? Nov 10, 2017 18:50 |
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precision posted:I was going to say "Wes Anderson nooooo" then remembered the incredibly out of place sexualized scene between two pre-teens in Moonrise Kingdom. Ahh poo poo Moonrise kingdom is one of my most favourite movies ever :[ god I hope those kids aren't damaged....
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# ? Nov 10, 2017 19:00 |
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Gibson seems more like the self-destructive type, classic case of untreated bi-polar.
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# ? Nov 10, 2017 19:01 |
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Can't wait for all these celebrities to receive "treatment" and be back at work within 3 months.
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# ? Nov 10, 2017 19:05 |
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https://www.facebook.com/EllenPage/posts/10155212835577449quote:“You should gently caress her to make her realize she’s gay.” He said this about me during a cast and crew “meet and greet” before we began filming, X Men: The Last Stand. I was eighteen years old. He looked at a woman standing next to me, ten years my senior, pointed to me and said: “You should gently caress her to make her realize she’s gay.” He was the film’s director, Brett Ratner.
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# ? Nov 10, 2017 19:07 |
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Pedro De Heredia posted:I'm not sure about that. What's out of whack is that I don't think sexual harassment feels like a risk to a lot of abusers. At the most extreme levels you have Weinstein who had a personal network of spies, Woody Allen's alleged mob connections, Bill O'Reily being contractually protected from any HR complaints, Donald Trump's tendency to use defamation and other counter-suits as a wall against any attacks, and CK's kingmaker status. For most people, you just have a broader rape culture. And the fact is that, yes, the odds of CK losing all of his money if very, very slim. And even if he never worked again, he'd still be worth more money than most of use would ever make if we worked for a century. He could lose half of his money and the former statement would still be true. Meanwhile for the accused, the risk of burning bridges, being seen as a problem, closing off professional opportunities, and receiving threats isn't just exceedingly high, but probable. I understand the issues with the "court of public pressure," but the reality is that we currently live in a world where public pressure has more often been used against victims than in their favor.
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# ? Nov 10, 2017 19:20 |
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Wow. Kudos to Page for being brave enough to dissect and discuss that trauma in an open forum. That is wholly horrific. gently caress Brett Ratner, man. That dude has been notoriously scummy for a long time, but what's striking in her account is the maliciousness of his behavior. Between that and Olivia Munn's story, he's proven to be an all-around grotesque human being, who shouldn't be allowed within a hundred feet of a professional production for the rest of his life.
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# ? Nov 10, 2017 19:22 |
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AlternateAccount posted:I looked into that, actually, because I didn't think so. Apparently be plea bargained/no contested a misdemeanor domestic violence charge. No idea what that stemmed from or what evidence there was. Clearly, regardless of whether he did or not, most people don't know/think he did. IIRC, that case was related to the recordings of Gibson that came out in 2010. quote:When Grigorieva says Gibson hit her in the face and broke her teeth – “What kind of man is that?” she asks – Gibson replies: “Oh, you’re all angry now! You know what, you [expletive] deserved it.”
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# ? Nov 10, 2017 19:24 |
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# ? Jun 3, 2024 21:47 |
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https://twitter.com/ditzkoff/status/929050106246115329
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# ? Nov 10, 2017 19:29 |