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but the mascots are still there because they're cute, it's funny when they fight the evil mascots, and also when they do things like pull out grenades
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Dec 29, 2019 03:58
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I mean I'm going to say that they don't really explore incubators outside of them being (by our standards) amoral so its less a deconstruction and more "what if the mascot character didn't have their best interests at heart". Its a cool dark tw ist that is then used in other anims in worse ways (magic girl raising project)
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Dec 29, 2019 03:59
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Namtab posted:Spec ops asuka where she takes her orders from the military
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Dec 29, 2019 04:00
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Terrible Opinions posted:That show was bad enough that I don't think it had any consideration beyond what those kill Barney websites from the early internet did.
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Dec 29, 2019 04:03
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Namtab posted:there's probably some people out there that call it a deconstruction because it asks "what if the precure style war against things from another dimension actually was a war"
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Dec 29, 2019 04:06
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Namtab posted:I mean I'm going to say that they don't really explore incubators outside of them being (by our standards) amoral so its less a deconstruction and more "what if the mascot character didn't have their best interests at heart". Its a cool dark tw ist that is then used in other anims in worse ways (magic girl raising project) MGRP’s evil mascot is obviously partly inspired by Kyubey, but also partly inspired by Monokuma. Not remotely as interesting as either, though. (Really, almost every MGRP character is a take on a archetype done better elsewhere. It reminds me of something I read somewhere about the impossibility of Tragedia Dell Arte.)
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Dec 29, 2019 04:07
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This conversation is the real tragedia haha
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Dec 29, 2019 04:09
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Silver2195 posted:Yeah, that's basically making Madoka's subtext text. Instead of a talking weasel you have a literal adult male military officer recruiting literal child soldiers. Gunslinger Girl already exists though
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Dec 29, 2019 04:15
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Namtab posted:This conversation is the real tragedia haha Sorry, that was a pretentious way of putting it. What the book or whatever I’m thinking of said (I can’t locate the source) is that comedy deals in broad archetypes, while the individuality of the characters is key to tragedy. Hence the relative lack of really memorable individuated characters in Shakespeare’s comedies compared to his tragedies, for instance. The problem with MGRP is that characters are defined by straightforward “tragic” flaws rather than properly fleshed out (e.g., Sister Nana is absurdly naive; it’s implied that this is partly because her girlfriend enables her, but we don’t get much of a sense of her beyond that). The end result is that the characters and their conflicts are too obviously artificial for the audience to really care about.
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Dec 29, 2019 04:20
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Gunslinger Girl whips, so that's fine. (I say having basically no knowledge of it besides that The Light Before We Land is an incredible OP)
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Dec 29, 2019 04:21
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Draxion posted:Gunslinger Girl whips, so that's fine. 
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Dec 29, 2019 04:44
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Gunslinger girl was quite good at exploring what youd need to do to develop this programme, i like the manga
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Dec 29, 2019 05:04
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It got a bit weaker when they started focusing on the ex ballerina but looking back with the benefit of hindsight that's because the story had done what it needed to with the original girl.
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Dec 29, 2019 05:07
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Right, figured I'd wind up having to justify myself a bit. So, here's what I think Madoka does that's deconstructive (meaning, for the purposes of this conversation, what details of its sources it views in more detail to question their purpose.) First, as mentioned, it has Kyubey. While mascots are typically benevolent, Kyubey is as morally suspect as you'd expect from someone recruiting child soldiers for a forever war. His primary interest is getting people to accomplish his goals, and if some kids die in the process, well, happens. Bigger things to focus on than a few brief lives. Second, magical girl shows often have "love", "hope", "friendship" and similar as sources of power in a slightly more literal way than in sports anime, similar to Dragon Ball's spirit bomb. In Madoka, the use of emotions as power is treated as a resource like any other, exploited by an amoral corporation, no matter the harm to those who provide it. If friendship is magic, then a lot of friendships will be formed purely to shoot better fireballs. And if the hopes and dreams of little girls are a power source, there's going to be someone ruining their dreams for a profit. Third, magical girls tend to be in very dangerous situations, but get out fine. Madoka presents magical girls as working in a line that's nasty, brutish, and short. Fourth, Madoka has Sayaka showing how too much pressure is going to make people snap, with a normal, even heroic teenage girl being unable to cope with the emotional realities of the line of work. And finally, Madoka herself is self-sacrificing to a fault... which leads to Homura's whole arc about the impossibility of saving Madoka from herself. Don't get me wrong, Madoka has plenty of dark aspects that aren't naturally derived from its sources, like having one of the protagonists just use normal people guns, but a lot of its premise comes from examination of the ideas of the genre, even as it concludes that, yeah, hope and such? Pretty good.
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Dec 29, 2019 05:32
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Wark Say posted:I haven't watched it in like a decade but I recall the first season being mostly fine. I haven't seen the second season, though. Also what's up fellow The Delgados enthusiast. I don't know how I started liking a not very well known Scottish band that split up 8 years before I heard of them, but I'm glad I did Draxion fucked around with this message at 06:26 on Dec 29, 2019 |
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Dec 29, 2019 05:59
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i think all deconstruction really means is "uses standard genre conventions, but has a different tone than usual"
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Dec 29, 2019 06:23
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 (Lord El-Mellol Season 2??) 
Grouchio fucked around with this message at 08:56 on Dec 29, 2019 |
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Dec 29, 2019 08:51
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chiasaur11 posted:Right, figured I'd wind up having to justify myself a bit. So, here's what I think Madoka does that's deconstructive (meaning, for the purposes of this conversation, what details of its sources it views in more detail to question their purpose.)
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Dec 29, 2019 12:02
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madoka isn't about magical girls, it's just urobuchi exploring heroism/self-sacrifice. it uses magical girl visuals and plotbeats because he loved hidamari sketch and wanted to just expy the characters from hidamari sketch into a more serious series, and also because he liked nanoha. questioning the magical girl genre isnt inherently unwoke, there's obvious issues with the general trends in the genre from both writing and marketing perspectives, the same way there's issues with any genre, but madoka isn't really interested in actually tackling any of those issues. its not like the show really engages with, say, unrealistic romantic/sexual expectations for girls, heteronormativity, tying of femininity to capitalism, etc. I guess the last one could be what kyubey is a metaphor for at a stretch, he is a weird person far above them exploiting their gender for his own gains, but they sure don't resolve that by like, finding a paradigm outside of him. and any feminist read of madoka is obviously gonna have to grapple with the weirdness that is 'teenage girls have largest and purest Emotion Energy' being literal text. Or the part where it went back through history and said random female historical figures were actually important because a rabbit gave them magic powers. And its fine for Madoka to not tackle those issues, I like it, but iunno why people think the problem with the magical girl genre that needs to be taken to task is that mascots are cute and sometimes good things happen. Deconstruction isn't about taking apart the visual or basic storytelling elements of something, it's about examining what's beneath those elements and the assumptions that come with them. Magical girl shows often assume that girls need to be pure and noble, they often function as 22 minute, 50-episode advertisements for cheap trinkets that will be replaced by different toys in a year, and they often tell young women that they're only allowed to have relationships with boys if they're either family or the deepest, most purest love ever. (This constitutes like 50% of the plot of Sailor Moon.) These are some of the issues with the genre that an actual deconstruction would address. Madoka either doesn't or only does so accidentally, due to its warping of common visual elements. Madoka goes 'what if magical girls died' but it isn't interested in exploring why your average magical girl show is sickly sweet and safe (in terms of consequences for character's actions/risks that they undertake to pursue their goals, not safe in terms of writing choices) in a way shows for young boys often aren't. So it's not a deconstruction. And that's fine. In other words, the actual magical girl deconstruction is Wixoss. Endorph fucked around with this message at 12:26 on Dec 29, 2019 |
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Dec 29, 2019 12:04
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OnimaruXLR posted:This sent me down a little Google journey and from what I can tell, VIT (vitality) was used quite a lot in the golden age of DQ and FF games in lieu of defense or resilience or whatever, so maybe it's someone trying to make a winking nod at old timey video game people, maybe just taking the terminology directly from old games if you played d&d, vitality is just constitution. it helps tons with surviving in general. also, RO was really fuckin big in japan, and every point of vit in RO gives some HP and damage resistance, to the point where many enemies will be doing 1 damage to you if you pour enough points into it. especially when combined with high armour values, because armour gives % based reduction first, then vit is point based reduction after that. so yeah, vit makes perfect sense to me.
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Dec 29, 2019 12:21
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here is the official endorph approved list of magical girl shows you can actually call a deconstruction: earth girl arjuna wixoss the smile precure sequel novel where one of the girls is having an argument with her american boyfriend and she realized she uprooted her entire life for him and so gave him a ton of power over her and that makes her intensely uncomfortable, and also another girl dropped out of high school to be a mangaka and regrets it (why does this exist) Zetsumetsu Kigu Shōjo Amazing Twins idolmaster xenoglossia iunno what musumet is but sure it can be a deconstruction too the magical girl grisaia spinoff vn thats mostly jokes about one of them having a glock darker than black: ryuusei no gemini list of these shows that are good: wixoss
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Dec 29, 2019 12:32
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Definitely feels like people had that reaction to Madoka since most people who see it as this big deconstruction's only exposure to magical girl stuff prior were like, 6 episodes of Sailor Moon they saw on Toonami as a kid.
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Dec 29, 2019 13:33
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I thought we had to be 5 eps into a new season before Madoka chat could start again? Also friendly reminder for when the season starts: if you watch anything at all post first impressions! I'm sure I'm not the only one that uses these threads as a viewing guide and as a collective ADTRW has pretty good taste
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Dec 29, 2019 13:55
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Can we have a magical girl show that deals with the girls depending on in-universe sales of non-magical plastic toys in their likeness, managers not allowing them to use attacks because they don't have the toys ready, and bootleg products taking away the real sales that power up the girls. (Note: I haven't watched Wixoss but keep hearing I probably should. Is it anything like this?)
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Dec 29, 2019 14:35
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It isn't, no. That would be a cool story idea though.
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Dec 29, 2019 14:42
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nielsm posted:Can we have a magical girl show that deals with the girls depending on in-universe sales of non-magical plastic toys in their likeness, managers not allowing them to use attacks because they don't have the toys ready, and bootleg products taking away the real sales that power up the girls. (Note: I haven't watched Wixoss but keep hearing I probably should. Is it anything like this?) and no, wixoss isnt like that at all. heck it barely acknowledges that the in-universe card game has a real world equivalent, or even in-universe is something that people besides the MCs play, and even when the MCs play it its mostly just treated as a magical battle, its not like yugioh where gaining new cards is treated as a plot point or where they explain the effects of cards they play. The most relevant part of the card game in Wixoss is that the term they use for it is basically one word removed from the Japanese term for same-sex relationships.
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Dec 29, 2019 14:44
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Endorph posted:theres a few mecha anime that sort of have this premise, like daiguard It does have a scene where the MCs rip open a bunch of booster packs to get the card they want because the store isn’t selling it as a single yet, though.
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Dec 29, 2019 14:47
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Silver2195 posted:It does have a scene where the MCs rip open a bunch of booster packs to get the card they want because the store isn’t selling it as a single yet, though.
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Dec 29, 2019 14:50
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Endorph posted:the smile precure sequel novel where one of the girls is having an argument with her american boyfriend and she realized she uprooted her entire life for him and so gave him a ton of power over her and that makes her intensely uncomfortable, and also another girl dropped out of high school to be a mangaka and regrets it (why does this exist) I'm kind of shocked to find out that the "bad sequel novel" disease that infected Rider managed to spread to Precure
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Dec 29, 2019 15:13
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Deconstructions: They can be kinda middling-to-bad, too? 
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Dec 29, 2019 15:15
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 seems like Boku no Tonari ni Ankoku Hakaishin will continue the chuuni-boi trend started by last season's Chuubyou Boys. i'm in!
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Dec 29, 2019 15:23
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Endorph posted:theres a few mecha anime that sort of have this premise, like daiguard Mecha and magical girls are basically the same tho. It's just whether the hero/ines wear a big metal thing or a fancy dress.
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Dec 29, 2019 15:33
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Let's be real here, Macross is both a mecha and a magical girl franchise.
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Dec 29, 2019 15:36
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Darth Walrus posted:Let's be real here, Macross is both a mecha and a magical girl franchise. It is not.
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Dec 29, 2019 15:40
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Damnable Falsehoods.
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Dec 29, 2019 15:40
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nielsm posted:Mecha and magical girls are basically the same tho. It's just whether the hero/ines wear a big metal thing or a fancy dress. I have also seen Granbelm.
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Dec 29, 2019 16:02
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Darth Walrus posted:Let's be real here, Macross is both a mecha and a magical girl franchise. It's a Mecha and Idol franchise. Slight distinction there.
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Dec 29, 2019 16:02
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Julias posted:It's a Mecha and Idol franchise. Slight distinction there. I mean, when they're using magic music to win wars, I feel like the distinction is breaking down pretty hard. Walkure in particular are definitely magical girls. I mean, when you're blazing away with a sci-fi machine-gun while singing magical J-Rock at the top of your lungs, there's essentially no distance between you and Chris from Symphogear. Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Dec 29, 2019 |
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Dec 29, 2019 16:10
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the difference between macross and magical girls is that magical girls let girls do stuff
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Dec 29, 2019 16:21
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the idols are just cultural imperialism
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Dec 29, 2019 16:29
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