Pener Kropoopkin posted:

posting is pointless my dude

I argue it now, because liberalism is dumb.

Guy Goodbody posted:

So is communism, dude

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W36BQtGeDIc

Squizzle posted:

haha yeah that was a crazy day, good memory p-kro

Squizzle posted:

i think we went boogie boarding the day before that

we had some laffs that weekend

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

Your strict proceduralist attitude towards resisting fascism is retarded, because it allows no point to actively resist them until well after they've already seized the organs of the state and have unilaterally changed the laws in their favor. Actually you wouldn't do anything even then, because the Reikspartei would have formulated some very well thought out and detailed policy proposals for the Final Solution.

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

Your strict proceduralist attitude towards resisting fascism is retarded, because it allows no point to actively resist them until well after they've already seized the organs of the state and have unilaterally changed the laws in their favor. Actually you wouldn't do anything even then, because the Reikspartei would have formulated some very well thought out and detailed policy proposals for the Final Solution.

Guy Goodbody posted:

My friend have you thought about voting

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

The Fascists sure did. Their preferred candidate is now the POTUS, and the GOP convention was full of blood & soil nationalism.

Guy Goodbody posted:

This is a serious question that I would like you to answer: Have you ever written a letter to your congressperson?

I just want to know what your thought process is, do you go welp, lost the election, time to hit the streets with a roll of nickels clenched in each fist?

Ace of Baes posted:

Contrary to what the media and public education teaches, ignoring bullies does not make them go away, and bad people are not Obi-Wan Kenobi and will not become more powerful after you strike them down.

Bear Retrieval Unit posted:

https://twitter.com/dril/status/473265809079693312

rudatron posted:

So I have a different take on this, but I need to get a few things straight first:

• Fascists are not violence demons, they are human beings, filled with blood. If you remove that blood, they will die. All political movements are vulnerable when they are small, and if suppressed enough, with violence, you can prevent fascism taking power. You're hobbling fascists by making the collective action problem harder for them to solve, that's not necessarily something they can overcome. Saying that suppressing them just means that they'll pop up somewhere else, like a hydra, does not match the actual reality of how any political movement operates.
  
• Freedom of speech is not and has never been an absolute, several countries have anti-fascist iconography bans, and that's fine. Banning hate speech isn't also going to lead to the end of society, but of course it won't really end fascists existing either, they'll just resort to coded language. But having to resort to code has a cost to it, it doesn't come for free. It makes their lives harder, and that's a good thing.
  
• Having said that, the more general freedom of speech is usually a good idea to protect. If you decide to make a law banning 'fascists' speech, guess who is going to decide what counts as 'fascists'? Not you, moron. You need well defined and explicit cases if you want to put reasonable limits on speech.

Okay, with that out of the way:

jarofpiss, I love you, really, you're a great guy. Here's what you don't get: people are not born violent. They try not to hurt other people, if they can avoid it, because to hurt another person is a traumatic thing. But, violence is something that people can do, and do a lot of, it they become acclimatized to it. That acclimatization takes exposure, and time. But it doesn't come for free, it has a cost associated with it. You, as a normal person, do not want to endure that cost. You, personally, are better off if you can avoid committing violence, and live a long, fulfilling & peaceful life. You're much better off using things like video games as a catharsis for aggression, and working towards your future, then you are engaging in violent political struggle.

Because you know who are acclimatized to violence? Fascists. They commit a lot of it, for a variety of reasons, which means they're usually in and out of prison like it's loving daycare. For such people, who usually have poo poo lives anyway and have already been exposed to violence, fascism offers a rationalization for their lovely behavior, and an outlet for their various psychological disorders. You don't want to be like them, and if you have to be like them, because that's what the current political situation demands, then we have much, much, much bigger problems than free speech. Talking legal minutiae at that point is rearranging deck chairs on the titanic, you're much better off accepting that you'll be arrested and committing those actions anyway, than trying to make some legal argument as to why you should get a special exception or whatever.

But I suspect that you're not psychological prepared for what you're saying you want here, because unless you have served active duty in a conflict zone, or committed murder or some other equivalent crime, you do not know what it means to be violent.

Guy Goodbody posted:

This is a serious question that I would like you to answer: Have you ever written a letter to your congressperson?

I just want to know what your thought process is, do you go welp, lost the election, time to hit the streets with a roll of nickels clenched in each fist?

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

Weird how they're only inclined to beat up leftists, blacks, and natives though. Oh well.


*Nazis march in mass formation in the streets*

Seizure Meat: don't bean them with baseball bats, that's just giving them what they want!

*Nazis march into the provincial legislature and hang the governor in his own mansion*

Seizure Meat: don't shoot them, that's just giving them what they want!

*Nazi militias spread out and seize every arm of the state, they're the government now*

Seizure Meat: don't form an underground resistance, that's just giving them what they want!

Cnut the Great posted:

Did anyone ever post solid evidence that beating people down in the streets is actually a successful strategy for preventing fascist takeover? Has this ever actually happened? Personally I don't think I could find it within myself to violently beat down someone who wasn't currently or imminently planning to enact actual physical violence on somebody else, and I don't personally see that as a moral failing.

quote:

Here's a simple solution. How about you don't beat them with baseball bats for just marching in the streets, but you do beat them with baseball bats when they try to march into the provincial legislature to hang the governor in his own mansion, and do the same for every level of escalation that may come after that. Seems pretty fair, no?

Cnut the Great posted:

Did anyone ever post solid evidence that beating people down in the streets is actually a successful strategy for preventing fascist takeover? Has this ever actually happened? Personally I don't think I could find it within myself to violently beat down someone who wasn't currently or imminently planning to enact actual physical violence on somebody else, and I don't personally see that as a moral failing.

Cnut the Great posted:

If your country's last defense against fascist takeover is citizen street violence I think maybe there are bigger societal problems at work that could be better addressed in other ways. If there are no better ways to address those bigger societal problems, then I think it stands to reason that you're already living in a fascist state and your justified citizen violence should be directed against the government in organized ways.

Cnut the Great posted:

e: I'm also confused about whether I was supposed to be going to Trump rallies to beat people with baseball bats or not.

jarofpiss posted:

it's a fair assumption that nazis are currently or imminently planning to enact physical violence on somebody else so don't worry about that part

ate poo poo on live tv posted:

Is there a simple test we can do to determine who is a nazi or not?

jarofpiss posted:

yah it's pretty easy because if you can't identify them by their tattoos/uniforms/runes/nordic symbols/swastikas/etc you can always ask and they will tell you

Guy Goodbody posted:

Do you think that actual, self-described Nazis with swastika tattoos are a serious political threat in America?

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

Making sure the KKK couldn't rally in public without getting bricked in the face would certainly

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

advocate the murder of an entire race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, or political group

Squizzle posted:

jarofpiss posted:

yah it's pretty easy because if you can't identify them by their tattoos/uniforms/runes/nordic symbols/swastikas/etc you can always ask and they will tell you

jarofpiss posted:

lmao we've done it! pener has become the thing he hated the whole time! masterful turning of the tables there!

jarofpiss posted:

lmao we've done it! pener has become the thing he hated the whole time! masterful turning of the tables there!

ate poo poo on live tv posted:

I'm soryr, I just don't think <100 people is a problem worth overturning the bill of rights.

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cable_Street

quote:

In October 2011, an article by Daniel Tilles for History Today argued that perceptions of Cable Street representing a set-back for the British Union of Fascists were mistaken:

"Contemporary records, in contrast to the romanticised recollections of those on the anti-fascist side, tell a different story. […] The demonstrators at Cable Street, and their successors in the anti-fascist movement, have understandably taken pride in their achievements that day. Yet far from signalling the beginning of the end for fascism in Britain, or even in the East End, the demonstration yielded a significant short-term boost for the BUF, and did nothing to hinder it in the longer term. True, it succeeded in demonstrating the strength of hostility to Mosley, confirming that his political ambitions would never be realised. But this had long been clear. By 1936 the BUF was a local irritant but a national irrelevance and destined to remain that way. Instead, Cable Street drew unnecessary attention and new adherents to the party. However laudable the motivation of the Jewish participants that day, the primary consequence of their actions was to make life significantly worse for their fellow Jews in the East End, with their involvement used to justify the commencement of the most intensive phase of anti-semitic activity in modern British history".[5]

quote:

No.

jarofpiss posted:

it's a fair assumption that nazis are currently or imminently planning to enact physical violence on somebody else so don't worry about that part

quote:

i thought it's supposed to be the first defense against fascist takeover though?

quote:

no i dont think so. just actual explicit neo nazis and fascists. we dont want to get carried away and physically hurt people just for being dumb and ugly (that makes us the same as the nazis(in theory at least)).

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

the brick was banned in the latest round of the Geneva Conventions

jarofpiss posted:

you need to reread the thread if you think i'm saying that we should lobby the bourgeois state to legislate more restrictive speech laws because i think they'll be used to protect us from fascists (as opposed to specifically used against me)

jarofpiss posted:

yah it's pretty easy because if you can't identify them by their tattoos/uniforms/runes/nordic symbols/swastikas/etc you can always ask and they will tell you

Seizure Meat posted:

so perhaps you should direct that energy at the fascist state that supports them

but you won't, because you're a scared pussy

jarofpiss posted:

please dont advocate for violence against goverment officials in my thread that is only for libs and repubs to talk about why nazis are good.

also i spend plenty of energy on organizing and action and coalition building etc so please dont call me low energy either!