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Is there a thread where people are talking about Spire and/or Heart? You know, by that guy who wrote all those one page rpgs like Honey Heist. I've had Spire for a while and loved it, lately they've been getting revisited with a bunch of attention on the rest of the internet which has led to group interest in me maybe running one of them (or both?) soon, seems weird that I couldn't find anywhere they're being discussed!
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May 15, 2024 06:48
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I checked out some of the things you suggested. I think it'd be best if we didn't introduce too many new mechanics and instead modify the ones we haveFuego Fish posted:Another ttrpg mechanic you might want to look into is the fate/luck point, which is used in many different games but usually in the same kind of fashion. These points are awarded for doing neat, in-character stuff (or they are refreshed between scenes, up to a certain limit) and the player can spend them to swing the narrative in their favour. "Can I use a luck point to say that when I jumped off the overpass, there was a truck carrying pillows passing below?" "I'd like to spend a luck point to say that I lifted the guard's key earlier." That kind of thing. These do usually require a GM's approval, in case it's asking for too much. I recall some conversations about using spare skill points for different things (as a meta-currency of sorts), I'd have to refresh those discussions. We have some power-gamers who grind as many skill points as possible so that they can improve their stats as quickly as possible and also some players who've been playing for so long, that they no longer want to improve their skills (and instead focus on creating relations/political power in game). But what if we had mechanic, which allows turning spare skill points into dice modifiers? I think it'd be a controversial mechanic, but otoh no one would be FORCED to spend their points. Maybe it's worth discussing. And then if we unify dice-rolling mechanic, with skills as modifiers and then spare skill points as an additional risk-reward mechanic then the dice rolls could gain a fun dimension. As for suggestions involving gm-free game, frankly I'm not sure if it would work for us. Right now the players don't have to play everything with gms but most things they do play - especially if they're supposed to affect the characters in some tangible way - need to be revised by me and two other guys. I'd rather spare myself more work, especially since it's voluntary  mellonbread posted:I will also say this sounds exactly like my experience with freeform role playing. We try to discuss any major changes with the players, see what arguments they have for/against a specific mechanic we're considering. The system isn't perfect and everyone would like it to be good... it's just that each person have a different idea what 'good' even is. As for conflicts in-group, I brought up some more dramatic disagreements and conflicts because I wanted to underline what kinds of problems arise from our system... but it's not that bad most of the time. Anyway, thanks for all the replies!
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May 15, 2024 09:29
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Lambo Trillrissian posted:Is there a thread where people are talking about Spire and/or Heart? You know, by that guy who wrote all those one page rpgs like Honey Heist. I've had Spire for a while and loved it, lately they've been getting revisited with a bunch of attention on the rest of the internet which has led to group interest in me maybe running one of them (or both?) soon, seems weird that I couldn't find anywhere they're being discussed! I bought the new campaign by Gareth hanrahan because he is a loving legend, i have read the rules to Heart and bounced off a couple of times.
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May 15, 2024 11:54
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I recently bought spire after owning heart for forever. I was thinking about running a pbp either here or elsewhere but am kinda put off by how kick-you-in-the-dick the rules are. I think it relies pretty heavily on how much you can do without even rolling and how creative the gm can be with fallout. I remember reading through the fallout examples in the book and thinking “wow, that’s a really uninteresting thing to do to the players, and will stop them from trying to do interesting things in the future”.
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May 15, 2024 12:22
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macabresca posted:I recall some conversations about using spare skill points for different things (as a meta-currency of sorts), I'd have to refresh those discussions. We have some power-gamers who grind as many skill points as possible so that they can improve their stats as quickly as possible and also some players who've been playing for so long, that they no longer want to improve their skills (and instead focus on creating relations/political power in game). But what if we had mechanic, which allows turning spare skill points into dice modifiers? One important thing about Fate points (besides explicitly not being for character progression) is that they have a shelf life, everyone starts over with a set amount at the beginning of a session. I think it's nice that they're use-it-or-lose-it, it prevents hoarding. People should be using them to power the really cool parts of their character.
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May 15, 2024 12:29
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macabresca posted:I checked out some of the things you suggested. I think it'd be best if we didn't introduce too many new mechanics and instead modify the ones we have 1)single-use bennies are the gold standard. Extra XP goes into one-time bonuses like metacurrency, single use boons, consumables etc. Note you're not choosing to get xp or bennies, you get xp until you hit cap then it's all bennies. Also be careful with consumables that cost gold - if I can grind to get potions that's more money I can save faster to buy permanent equipment. 2) world investment - excess XP goes to personal favourite NPCs, upgrading locations etc. Yeah you're capped out but your fame points or whatever are used to upgrade your favourite bar because everyone knows it's Griknar: Hero of the Realm's favourite bar. 3) mentorship: give a newbie character your excess xp as banked xp that they can reclaim one-for-one alongside personally earned xp. 4) secondary characters: same as 3 but they belong to you or shared amongst the group. Works good with retirement mechanics.
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May 15, 2024 13:17
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Lambo Trillrissian posted:Behold, the great and terrible beauty of 7 consecutive listed acronyms with no explanation given. Somewhere, an editor just felt a shiver... Come and do some research with me. I’ll hand you the 8 FAAT books of Government acronyms you’ll have to memorize. It’s only a couple thousand pages of them…
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May 15, 2024 14:50
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ninjoatse.cx posted:I recently bought spire after owning heart for forever. I was thinking about running a pbp either here or elsewhere but am kinda put off by how kick-you-in-the-dick the rules are. I think it relies pretty heavily on how much you can do without even rolling and how creative the gm can be with fallout. I remember reading through the fallout examples in the book and thinking “wow, that’s a really uninteresting thing to do to the players, and will stop them from trying to do interesting things in the future”. Without commenting on Heart specifically, it confuses me how many design lessons we take for granted here on these forums that are just ignored (not known?) by people out there. And on one level, I get it - I cannot list all the times I thought "oh drat, what a cool ability for a monster" only to play with the monster and think "what the hell, Jim, this ability obviously breaks a design principle that you know very well, and the results are predictably bad!" It's easy to forget the lessons you know. But playtesting should catch that! I catch when I write a crappy monster and revise it. For an example, I have been adapting Eyes of the Stone Thief to Strike! for my group and I've been trying to do it as "literally" as I can for the most part. But there have been some encounters that I think are just bad in an obvious way. In one, they are climbing out of a trapped well while being attacked by undead spiders. It should be cool, and mostly it is, but the consequence of failing a climb check is just that you can't move. So I ran it pretty much as-is, and it was great and tense because my players had mostly typical rolls. But I kept thinking "if they have good luck on their attacks and on the monster/trap attacks, but bad luck on their movement, this encounter will become an absolute slog." And I bet that happens to some % of groups! They just sit around for a while, failing to progress while not being in terribly much danger. And then later, there is an encounter where the players could face literally 54 enemies. 13A has mook rules that make it easy to carve through a lot at once, but afaik there is nothing mitigating those numbers from the GM's side: you're just going to be rolling a billion attacks each round, right and trying to position a billion monsters? It's the 36d6 rats thing. And this comes at the end of a section where there was another fight with 30 enemies and another with 20. Doing it once seems like maybe the novelty makes up for the tedium, but after a few times, it's going to feel like a slog, isn't it? The only way I can imagine it being fun is if the GM is just saying "gently caress it" and abstracting away a bunch of the rules/enemies. The rest of the fights I've been able to translate to Strike! mechanics pretty directly, but I can't see how that can work here - there is zero chance these huge fights can be fun in Strike! I don't know, maybe there's something I'm missing! Certainly Stone Thief is brilliant. The structure and concept are not only very interesting and cool in their own right, but are incredibly practical for play and integrate well with the game's systems. And then the obviously brilliant designer makes what seems to be an obvious fumble... Maybe I'm the one who is wrong, so a learning opportunity, but I don't know what lesson to learn.
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May 15, 2024 15:37
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Jimbozig posted:The rest of the fights I've been able to translate to Strike! mechanics pretty directly, but I can't see how that can work here - there is zero chance these huge fights can be fun in Strike!
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May 15, 2024 16:15
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In PF2, a large number of the same type of enemy fighting as a unit would probably be statted as a troop monster rather than individually. Does 13th Age not have rules for troops?
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May 15, 2024 16:34
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ninjoatse.cx posted:I recently bought spire after owning heart for forever. I was thinking about running a pbp either here or elsewhere but am kinda put off by how kick-you-in-the-dick the rules are. I think it relies pretty heavily on how much you can do without even rolling and how creative the gm can be with fallout. I remember reading through the fallout examples in the book and thinking “wow, that’s a really uninteresting thing to do to the players, and will stop them from trying to do interesting things in the future”. Granted I've only run one shots (which accelerated how punishing the system is, in order to show off those mechanics) but in practice I really don't get what you're saying here. The stress gauges can actually be pretty permissive with players taking risks, especially at things they're good at, and the major fallout options are punishing because that's the point... But you're also not going to slam into those right away. It takes a significant amount of time to build up to the big stuff, and the minor fallout options really aren't that bad. It's a system where the buy-in of the fiction is that what you're doing is going to kill you and you are telling the story of your character's downfall, it's not meant to be a frictionless power fantasy of tactically applying the rules to Win. Players still feel powerful and impactful on the game world even when they've been totally hosed up. The game is very open about the GM and players collaborating on how exactly everyone wants to be kicked in the dick, hell Heart's character advancement is directly pinned to the players putting up big red arrow signs that say "Specifically gently caress Me Up This Way, Please." So I don't understand saying that punishing consequences (eventually! they take time to happen!) will stop characters from wanting to try things. Players are supposed to try things specifically so that they will suffer consequences, that's the objective of the game. If your table doesn't buy in to that as a good time then that's totally fine, don't play the game, like why would you play Lancer if your table doesn't like mecha, tactical combat and space communism.
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May 15, 2024 17:22
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Splicer posted:EotE handles massive numbers really good - you just moosh them into the right amount of blobs and every dude after the first adds one skill level to the blob. Of course the funny dice are part of how this works and I don't know strike well enough (sorry!) to know if there's a reason why something similar wouldn't work. You can do things like that, sure. Declare that this token represents 10 dudes. Give it appropriate traits for a mob. I just meant that actually controlling 54 tokens on the map would be a bad time in Strike! even before you get to trying to make all the attack rolls. But I feel like 13A has similar issues. Not quite as bad because it's not strictly on the grid like Strike! is, but unless I've missed something in the 13A rules, these are 54 distinct monsters that the GM has to control. Players can blow up a bunch at once with a single attack roll, which is fun, but when the GM's turn comes up, things are going to slow way down. And I really get what Hanrahan was going for. Seeing 54 monsters on the map and going "holy gently caress" and then having a huge battle. That's cool as hell! Having 6 tokens and saying "but each of those 4 represents 12 guys" just doesn't have the uniqueness, the cool factor, even if it works. I just needed to see some GM tech from the designer to make having 54 dudes smooth and fun and instead just got a rather insufficient sidebar: The Insufficient Sidebar posted:Running HUGE BATTLES The first bullet point is "don't actually have all 54 monsters there at once," the second is "have some of them not act each round," the third doesn't help with my issue, and the fourth is "or you could just not do this at all." And considering this is a key section of the dungeon and it has 4 fights I would consider "huge," I feel like I need these fights to be cool. The players can dodge some fighting, but they probably want to engage in some of the fights. Maybe I should post in the 13A thread about this.
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May 15, 2024 17:45
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Lambo Trillrissian posted:Granted I've only run one shots (which accelerated how punishing the system is, in order to show off those mechanics) but in practice I really don't get what you're saying here. The stress gauges can actually be pretty permissive with players taking risks, especially at things they're good at, and the major fallout options are punishing because that's the point... But you're also not going to slam into those right away. It takes a significant amount of time to build up to the big stuff, and the minor fallout options really aren't that bad. It's a system where the buy-in of the fiction is that what you're doing is going to kill you and you are telling the story of your character's downfall, it's not meant to be a frictionless power fantasy of tactically applying the rules to Win. Players still feel powerful and impactful on the game world even when they've been totally hosed up. I was actually posting about Spire, specifically in my previous post, more than Heart. I think it's more along the lines of trying to do things that are not your specialty is actively discouraged because the math really isn't on your side. If you can consistently roll more than 2 dice, great. if not the dice can take over the story pretty easily. Also keep in mind that a 2 or 3 stresses that don't cause a fallout can inflict a major fallout (which is supposed to rival death). They don't even have to be particularly risky actions. I guess I can start a session up and see how it goes
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May 15, 2024 17:46
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I mean, at some point the question is, "why can't a brigade of archers just pincushion the heroes?", and the answer is, "because it's not in genre". I'd just blob them together into one monster and weaken them as their HP lowered.
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May 15, 2024 17:50
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ninjoatse.cx posted:I was actually posting about Spire, specifically in my previous post, more than Heart. I think it's more along the lines of trying to do things that are not your specialty is actively discouraged because the math really isn't on your side. If you can consistently roll more than 2 dice, great. if not the dice can take over the story pretty easily. Also keep in mind that a 2 or 3 stresses that don't cause a fallout can inflict a major fallout (which is supposed to rival death). They don't even have to be particularly risky actions. Hm, I can see some of that, though Major fallout really isn't on the level of death/character loss, that's what the third level is for. They are very defining of what's going to happen next at the table though. The game absolutely needs to played bearing in mind that sometimes a Major fallout will forcibly shift the focus of the story for the next little bit, and I can definitely see that not jibing with some GM'ing styles. Also I think it's pretty uncontroversial to acknowledge that Heart is definitely the Better Game as far as nuts and bolts of refining the system goes even though Spire holds a special place in my, uh, heart. The smaller list and more flexible nature of Heart's domains compared to Spire makes it easier to improv your way into more dice, which does make the math more favorable, I can absolutely see that complaint about specialization pigeonholing in Spire, especially early on when characters don't have any advances yet (after my first one shot I did give my premades 2 extra minor advances.)
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May 15, 2024 18:00
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Spire and Heart seem to be things which come up briefly and then are forgotten about. They are fantastic settings and the classes have some good ideas but the system is a bit too light for what it wants to do. And the Spire damage system can have some weird consequences.
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May 15, 2024 19:24
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Jimbozig posted:but afaik there is nothing mitigating those numbers from the GM's side: you're just going to be rolling a billion attacks each round, right and trying to position a billion monsters? The one rule I liked from Feng Shui 2e is to pre-roll a big sheet of attacks from unimportant mooks. You roll a couple hundred attacks ahead of time, put the results on a sheet, then just check them off one by one as they're used. I don't know the specific battle from this module but I'm assuming that the monsters are not going to have a great chance to hit the PCs. A dozen attacks can go very fast if you're able to tell at a glance that only 3 of them are hits, especially if they're doing fixed damage and not rolling damage for each hit. It doesn't really solve the other issues that come with running such a big fight but it would make it go a lot faster. CHaKKaWaKka fucked around with this message at 20:37 on May 15, 2024 |
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May 15, 2024 20:34
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It is page 500 my dudes
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May 15, 2024 21:01
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PuttyKnife posted:Come and do some research with me. I’ll hand you the 8 FAAT books of Role-playing is an ARE (Acronym Rich Environment) Re Stone Thief, i don't remember fights ever being particularly draggy, but 54 enemies is kind of an edge case that i think i avoided. Average damage does a lot of work there, "roll 10d20, deal 7 damage for each one that's over 14" is not that onerous, and any kind of aoe will just melt mooks.
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May 15, 2024 21:03
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Jimbozig posted:-Eyes of the Stone Thief combat issues- Tangentially related, but how have you found the process of revisiting the dungeon to work? After reading the book a bunch of times, I still feel like I don't have a good grasp on how to handle players returning (and it's odd it provides no real tools aside from some suggestions of new enemies/traps to help add all the new content you're supposed to add on revisits).
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May 15, 2024 21:04
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BinaryDoubts posted:Tangentially related, but how have you found the process of revisiting the dungeon to work? After reading the book a bunch of times, I still feel like I don't have a good grasp on how to handle players returning (and it's odd it provides no real tools aside from some suggestions of new enemies/traps to help add all the new content you're supposed to add on revisits). I'll tell you when we get there! They're still on their first delve. There are some suggestions for changing around each encounter in the book, which I will use. Some parts will be harder to know what to do: there are plausible reasons for some enemies to come back, but others less so, so if they take out some enemies then those rooms might be empty or I might restock them from my own imagination. There are a couple of things in the first section that they didn't see, so they can see those when they come back. And I only used about 40% of the second section because that's what the book says to do, so I can make that part 100% different if I want to and still have stuff left over for a third attempt. And actually, they lost a fight there so probably I'll throw the same fight at them for a rematch once they gain a couple of levels and they can get their vengeance (or eat poo poo again).
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May 15, 2024 23:09
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BinaryDoubts posted:Tangentially related, but how have you found the process of revisiting the dungeon to work? After reading the book a bunch of times, I still feel like I don't have a good grasp on how to handle players returning (and it's odd it provides no real tools aside from some suggestions of new enemies/traps to help add all the new content you're supposed to add on revisits). First delve, it hit their town. Then it showed up again in the middle of a battle, but they ended up kinda using it to their advantage. Third, they were following a lead for one of the Eyes and headed to a lich's tower. Their adversaries (I used the Vengeful Company) showed up and got the Eye first. The dungeon showed up around the same time. They got eaten (along with one of the Company, who they tossed in) and while the Company fled with the Eye on a flying ship. That's about where we ended though. It felt like it ran out of steam, and we weren't enjoying the actual system all too much anymore.
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May 15, 2024 23:46
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A while back in this thread (I think it was this thread) someone mentioned that there was a Star Wars RPG that had Skill Challenges but done right. Is that Edge of the Empire or one of the older ones? Sorry for the extremely vague question, I meant to ask when it came up and then forgot
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May 16, 2024 00:24
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Tarnop posted:A while back in this thread (I think it was this thread) someone mentioned that there was a Star Wars RPG that had Skill Challenges but done right. Is that Edge of the Empire or one of the older ones? Sorry for the extremely vague question, I meant to ask when it came up and then forgot It’s SAGA Edition, or D&D 3.75, but the Skill Challenges are in a supplement that came out after 4E DMG, IIRC. Will track down tonight if nobody else chimes in.
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May 16, 2024 00:27
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CitizenKeen posted:It’s SAGA Edition, or D&D 3.75, but the Skill Challenges are in a supplement that came out after 4E DMG, IIRC. Will track down tonight if nobody else chimes in. I appreciate it, thanks!
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May 16, 2024 01:07
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Tarnop posted:I appreciate it, thanks! It’s from Galaxy of Intrigue, the penultimate book (2 years after 4E). It’s 30 pages of how to build layered, dynamic skill challenges with examples of things like chases, overland travel, infiltration, interrogation, and searching asteroid fields. It’s quite good. They’re still skill challenges but they feel like a framework you can hang an adventure on.
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May 16, 2024 01:56
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That's perfect, exactly what I was looking for. Thank you
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May 16, 2024 02:06
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Completely random request, does anyone have the source for that old illustration of Elminster sitting in someone's kitchen on Earth in the middle of the night, eating a snack?
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May 16, 2024 02:34
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Kestral posted:Completely random request, does anyone have the source for that old illustration of Elminster sitting in someone's kitchen on Earth in the middle of the night, eating a snack? fun fact this man would later go on to do the Animorphs covers.
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May 16, 2024 02:43
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That's pretty much how every old Ed Greenwood article about the realms would start. He goes to his kitchen and Elminster is there bogarting his beer.
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May 16, 2024 05:42
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I'e just started a call for a proofreader in SA-Mart (https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=4060842); If any of you are interested to help find me a proofreader, please don't hesitate. Cheers 🙂
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May 16, 2024 09:48
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Vox Valentine posted:https://davidmattingly.com/category.php?id=2517&n=Wizards Thank you! Also, I am in awe of this gallery, absolute proclick.
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May 16, 2024 10:50
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BinaryDoubts posted:Tangentially related, but how have you found the process of revisiting the dungeon to work? After reading the book a bunch of times, I still feel like I don't have a good grasp on how to handle players returning (and it's odd it provides no real tools aside from some suggestions of new enemies/traps to help add all the new content you're supposed to add on revisits). I generally just used part of each level the first time through, and then skipped whole areas for later delves. In general I was basing it around the likely sequence of events listed in the Playing the Campaign section - it works really well and the approach of treating surface adventures as a lot more freefloating was great. My group entered four times: 1. the standard opening of being in a town while it gets eaten, explored through to the gizzard, and were kicked out after killing the architect. They spent some time on the surface starting to look into the dungeon and chasing down rumors of it eating other places, while also doing some of the stuff from before their first entry (I ran Erde Manor to get them to level 4, and they'd befriended some Rubbery Men down there and brought them to the surface and set them up as gunmakers) 2. a trip through to the ossuary - I ate them in mid-ocean so started them in the sunken sea, they ran straight back to the gizzard, and then went grove -> ossuary and made friends with the Flesh Tailor due to Lich King icon relationships. This gave them a bunch of clues and context and a way out of the dungeon. I also set up a bunch of Witch threads here that never really got addressed. On the surface this time they went to hunt the Prince of Shadow's eye, where they also met the opposition - Master Throatcutter killed the druid and wounded the Prince - they replaced the PC with a necromancer and got away with an Eye after doing some dirty work for the Prince. This also tied into the orc / deep keep situation - I'd had a PC captured and interrogated by the orcs, but they managed to gather a lot of useful info during that. 3. a deliberate expedition using the Eye to locate it in dwarf lands - I used the upgraded gauntlet here and then straight to deep keep, and went hard on all the orc drama. This climaxed with the note about the Crusader being able to claim the hellhole - instead of the listed effect, what I ended up going with was the ritual of claiming actually pinning the Thief in place, and tearing the whole of Deep Keep away to flee, leaving it on a pinnacle in the middle of the ocean and making a great base for the players for the rest of hte campaign. At this point they had a lot of clues so I kicked off the council of Axis scenes, sending the PCs to the overworld for fun skyship freeform stuff while they figured out where they'd need to find the Thief. I decided to set things up so that the Thief was going to eat Necropolis - the random invitation to visit you can find in the Ossuary turned out to make the whole campaign tie together here, so they had a great time with lich petty drama and politics until the ground fell away and led to... 4. I used the last gauntlet encounter then straight to maddening stair -> pit -> catacombs for the showdown with the Cult (lots of 'the entire undead forces of Necropolis fighting over control of the upper levels' happening in the background) Never used dungeon town or marblehall in the end and they barely scratched the grove and sunken sea.
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May 16, 2024 11:35
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Kestral posted:Thank you! Also, I am in awe of this gallery, absolute proclick. The wizard on the subway is killer.
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May 16, 2024 15:17
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has anyone played the trench crusade playtest? apparently they owned a bunch of dumbasses and i learned about it via it becoming another niche culture war flash point
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May 18, 2024 10:39
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The makers of that game immediately booted those nazis out of their bar, not a second's hesitation. It was the first I'd heard about Trench Crusade too but now it's got my attention.
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May 18, 2024 12:58
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Vox Valentine posted:https://davidmattingly.com/category.php?id=2517&n=Wizards Actually scratch that, choose your opponent. I choose punk wizard, he's got "overconfident guy defeated easily in the intro" written all over him.
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May 18, 2024 13:01
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Runa posted:The makers of that game immediately booted those nazis out of their bar, not a second's hesitation. Wow, nazis whining about
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May 18, 2024 16:35
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I inherited a copy of a wargame called The Longest Day from a relative some years ago, and last week my dad and I finally sat down to play it. Does anyone who's played old-timey wargames like this have any advice on how you're supposed to physically deal with counters like this? We had fun playing it but we kept running into the issue where actually picking up the counters in play was functionally impossible without disturbing every counter around it, and this game allows units to stack in hexes so any time you need to resolve combat you've got to pick up all the stacked units in the hexes in question to check what's underneath. Each counter is about 1cm² so they're too large for normal tweezers. We're going to get some forceps from my dad's lab for next time which should hopefully work better but I thought I'd check with others to see if there's some ancient boardgaming technique we're unaware of.
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May 18, 2024 22:26
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Tweezers! Also a good sheet of plexiglass to put over the map. https://youtu.be/WNuX3Tb5Ato?si=sx3ZsXGjFJ_vSwVO
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May 18, 2024 22:47
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