grognards.txt

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Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

Pangalin posted:

Do you see why implying that rape would only be commonplace in an "apocalyptically corrupt" locale is a problematic notion? Because rape happens in places that aren't "apocalyptically corrupt".

Nobody said "only".

Someone was talking about the difference between the Patton Oswalt "the economy is made of rape" joke and Carcosa. In both cases, the appearance of rape as a trope is used for the same reason.

# ¿ May 17, 2012 02:12

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# ¿ May 7, 2024 20:06

Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

Glitterbomber posted:

Funny, if I remember right in Carcosa rape is a power source for wizards, and in the Oswalt joke a predatory system that victimizes people is likened to rape.

Is it your belief that these wizards in the game are meant to be good characters that the players would want to emulate? That is not my understanding.

It is, almost literally, "an economy based on rape". A Bad Wizard economy.

But all this is unnecessary in your case, Glitterbomber for I presume you would not be pk withthe Patton joke either. Right?

# ¿ May 17, 2012 02:17

Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

Jabor posted:

Yes. Pages and pages of explicit rape fantasy is just "a trope".

What kind of bizarre alternate-universe copy of Carcosa do you have? Pages and pages?

# ¿ May 17, 2012 02:18

Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

mllaneza posted:

There's a big difference between a reference in the lore to children being horribly used to perform dark magics and writing down exactly what happens to the victim.

I think this is a fine distinction that is useful that many people here have failed to make: Patton's joke does not evoke the image of rape in imaginary detail. The few lines concerning rape in Carcosa provide enough detail that they do. They are more likely to trigger someone than the joke

quote:

This happens in people's homes, because some people really do put rape in their games.... Step into someone else's shoes for a mile and imagine the shock of being made to roleplay a rape.

What I do not understand (if it is being said) is how this--which is clearly entirely the fault of an actual human being you are gaming with being an actual rear end in a top hat--is somehow equated to a reference in a game product.

This person being an rear end in a top hat is not doing it because Carcosa gave him/her/it permission. They are doing it because they are scum.

# ¿ May 17, 2012 02:24

Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

Glitterbomber posted:

Patton Oswalt: A very political standup comedian made a joke where, in describing the economy of America as a predatory, damaging, concept that hurts many, used the hyperbole of 'the economy is based on rape', because in his view the economy is currently a bad system.

Your stupid rape game: Has magic empowered by rape, you gain power by raping people, rape is something that gives you magic power. No, no one thinks anyone is going to think they will become real wizards if they rape someone, but it normalizes and lessens rape because it actively is rewarding to someone. Someone literally is rewarded for raping. Good, bad, whatever, it's a loving power source.

But it's the villain. In both cases: the rapist is the villain.

# ¿ May 17, 2012 02:25

Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

Jabor posted:

In your estimation, how many pages of rape fantasy does it have?

The expurgated version only had to delete something like 12 words in one or two sentences.

(And calling it "fantasy" implies "wish fulfillment" in a strange and leading way I feel.)

If the book really were "pages and pages of rape fantasy" it would something entirely different. I think perhaps the book has been Flanderized in internet discussions.

# ¿ May 17, 2012 02:31

Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

Glitterbomber posted:

Right and in Patton's case he says 'it's like rape!' and in your game's case there are pages of description on how rape empowers wizards and the kind of rape they need to do and how awesome it is.

Also, again, two totally different mediums and contexts and all.

Again: what edition do you have where there is "pages and pages" or rape fantasy?

Have you ever seen a copy?

# ¿ May 17, 2012 02:32

Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

Rasamune posted:

By including rape as part of the assumed mechanics and setting, yes, Carcosa is implicitly giving the GM permission to use it. How many "paladin loses his powers because [insert lovely reason here]" stories would you hear if falling was never included in the rules for paladins in D&D?

Do you think this was Geoffrey's intention?

# ¿ May 17, 2012 02:35

Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

Pangalin posted:

Zak, are you seriously unaware of any other form of media where the villain is presented as more interesting than the heroes? "But the book says only bad guys do it" is not justification. Hannibal Lecter is generally more interesting than Clarice Starling but this is not a justification for lengthy scenes of explicit nastiness where the film shows us exactly how he kills people and eats them in painstaking detail. Why show us all this if it's supposed to be bad?

And, really, quibbling over precisely how much of Carcosa's pagecount is devoted to rape magick is not helping you.

Well 120 Days of Sodom its different than a Judy Blume book. But anyway, more importantly: so you, Pangalin, think the Sllence of the Lambs novels are equally bad?

# ¿ May 17, 2012 02:37

Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

Glitterbomber posted:

Do you think it's a total accident?

I think he-like a great many people--has different ideas about what causes sexual crimes than you do.

I think--like nearly everyone on the planet--he does not want rape to occur and if it did he would not use a game to make it happen.

# ¿ May 17, 2012 02:39

Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

Mors Rattus posted:

If he did not intend the rituals to be used in game, why include them?

To (perhaps clumsily, and insensitively) make it viscerally clear that Carcosa was a colossally hosed up place and that its elder gods and their servants were disgusting foes and therefore all the more fun to kill.

# ¿ May 17, 2012 02:40

Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

Alouicious posted:

And do you not see why using rape to do that was a bad call?

Hey maybe. It's not my favorite supplement by a long shot.

But I think there is a tremendous and ignored excluded middle here between "clumsy guy writing an RPG supplement and not realizing it might be triggering" and the level of moral aggression coming out of this thread at him and everyone associated with him. (And anyone associated with him. And any play style associated with him. And any game associated with him. And on and on and on...)

Like, whether or not Patton's joke is the same as Carcosa in terms of bad taste, I can guarantee you that he's probably gotten mail from people who thought it was and for much the same reasons. There's a difference between "I think you've chosen a poor tactic whose side effects outweigh its literary effectiveness" and "I think you are an ethical troglodyte". Which is pretty much what I see here.

# ¿ May 17, 2012 02:46

Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

Mors Rattus posted:

How about the rest of the rituals? Did all that space really need to be used for something that will never see the light of play?

I believe the idea is (as in Joesky's adventure) the rituals require the baddies to do something--(collect items, sacrificial victims, etc) and so you can build an adventure around trying to stop them from getting this that or the other ingredient or performing this that or the other act.

# ¿ May 17, 2012 02:49

Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

Asimo posted:

why not shut the gently caress up and step out for a while

At the moment, people in this thread are both asking questions and answering them honestly, rather than sniping (mostly) and that is a good time to learn things. I am trying to take advantage of this mood before it goes back to being dull.

# ¿ May 17, 2012 02:55

Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

Pangalin posted:

I think there is a process via while the dialog moves from the first example to the second example, and that process is largely built from defensiveness and insistence that anyone complaining is just oversensitive. If I tell you that you've done something lovely, and I can demonstrate that it's lovely, then it's on you to correct and/or make amends. If you refuse, and, in fact, insist that your lovely thing was somehow necessary, then yes, you are relegated to the troglodyte pen until you understand what you did wrong.

If you just concede that it was lovely and try to make up for it, then hey we might view you with suspicion for a while but at least you've demonstrated some marginal degree of moral responsibility.

So then you all should talk to Geoffrey.

# ¿ May 17, 2012 02:57

Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

Mors Rattus posted:

I see. That'd be pretty much 'bad writer' camp, for me. I mean, assuming we need a random table of what happens, I'd probably say you'd be better served with 'any given ritual requires 3 human sacrifices and four rare herbs found only the Swamps of Lumbago.' Takes up less space and doesn't require anything about necrophiliac rape of teenaged girls.

Well if I had written it it would've been done in random tables. But I didn't.

I am not defending it as a perfectly-conceived and executed product.

# ¿ May 17, 2012 03:02

Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

Red_Mage posted:

Hi Zack S. If I write up 5 points about why I hate the OSR (which I do) will you take the time to read and rebut them reasonably? I ask because I am kinda busy tonight, and I don't want to waste words.

Depends on whether they seem like they were written by a lunatic or not. It will be a judgment call.

# ¿ May 17, 2012 03:05

Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

Halloween Jack posted:

I'm with you on that; initially I thought Cthulhutech could be kinda like RIFTS done right but the more I read into the supplements the more I was

There are thirty-three pages of rituals in Carcosa. Thirty. three. Pages. 80 of the 95 rituals require torture and/or murder.

Do you know of any game that devotes that many pages to rules which the PCs aren't intended to use, and which probably won't come up in gameplay at all, but are just there to show that the PCs' antagonists are really really evil?

You should know better than to attempt such a stupid and dishonest argument, Zak.

I explained above how I thought it was supposed to work. If you missed it or didn't believe me, let me know.

# ¿ May 17, 2012 03:06

Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

Mors Rattus posted:

I can understand your point of view here, Zak. I'm not certain I agree with it; I feel the use of the infamous necrophiliac White girl rape is just a bit too - well, too insane for me to buy that it was meant to be a quest to stop, especially with the yearly zombie re-rape.

But I can see why you would believe that and feel it was a failing on the writer's part to not just go for a simpler table. I think we can agree to disagree here, and I don't think your position on this is necessarily morally reprehensible. (I still think whoever wrote that had some problems, though, because seriously.)

This is really all I can ask for.

I mean, I think if it's like "this is basically the same argument the Dworkin feminists and the s&m lesbians had about rape in every art class I ever had but everyone can still talk to each other civilly after" then ok. We can agree that someone not-insane might have had a not-insane reason to write this book despite how it looks after the fact to you and then talk about other things.

If, on the other hand, it's like "Carcosa= total evil", "OSR=Carcosa lovers", "OSR=chavinist racist homophobes", therefore "descending AC=rape" then no-one is ever going to listen to anyone and nothing productive gets said because half the people talking are assumed to have secret evil motives for wanting to check for traps in ten foot corridors.

# ¿ May 17, 2012 03:14

Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

dirtycajun posted:

Call done, dirtycajun story time. So one of the first groups when I went shopping for a new group. 3.5 game I found from a posting in a coffee shop. I talked to the dm by phone seemed legit. I get to the first game, everyone was already there chatting it up. Looked like they had another newish girl there. Alright cool, first co ed game group, I was still in high-school.

Then I see that almost everyone has a foxtail. Apparently the people were wearing them because they had were-fox characters. Whatever, I had furries for friends in school. No biggy. Then I found out how they got the tails.

So in this campaign you dont start as a werefox, the group initiates you. By raping your character. I got to witness the new girl have her character raped in graphic detail. The girl was not looking to pleased about it either. I had no clue what to do so after about five minutes I bolted. Ran right the gently caress out.

As I ran the gm called out to me "But you get a foxtail once they initiate you!"

See, why can't this thread just be full of poo poo like this? This is insane grog. Some guy says he doesn't like warforged in some forum post is a whole other thing.

# ¿ May 17, 2012 03:29

Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

mllaneza posted:

Thought ? You didn't know anything about Carcosa before you jumped into discussing it ?

I think you misunderstood my comment. I was saying: I read Carcosa. I looked at the rituals, I thought "Why are they here?" then I figured out why.

It's like how, in the Mayfair DC game, the villains have a timeline and the heroes can interrupt them anywhere in the timeline to defeat them. In Carcosa, the villains have a sort of "to-do list" before each horrible summoning. You're meant to interrupt it. Much like certain Call of Cthulhu scenarios.

# ¿ May 17, 2012 03:36

Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

mllaneza posted:

Good point. 33 pages of actual adventure hooks would have been useful. The PCs hear that a couple Green kids went missing, so they go up to the tower to ask their wizard buddy what's going on. A laundry list of goals, requirements and other clues would help you to run a medieval FBI special taskforce game.

Instead he wrote 33 pages of stuff the PCs have no way to know about.

The Blue Rose adventure hooks are even sketchier. One line each. In Carcosa, the PCs will know about these things as soon as the GM goes "A Jale gem from the Desert of Whatever is missing, the people in the desert fear the Sorcerer in hex 183 is planning The Ritual of The Frothing Pleonasm" or whatever.

I honestly think this is the intent. I mean: look at Joesky's Carcosa adventure on his blog--that is how the setting is meant to be used. Do y'all have a problem with that?

# ¿ May 17, 2012 03:57

Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

As for the Sorcerer-as-PC thing: I don't thing having some of the rituals including rape ( I think only one, actually, never counted) is meant to be imply "Hey, choose this spell for sure. And definitely act this out at the table, too." Like, as someone who regularly hears about people playing Carcosa all the time, the notion has never come up.

Again: if the problem is the casual treatment of rape--I can see that.

If the problem is you think Geoffrey has rape issues--I think that's a bridge too far.

The two are being conflated here.

# ¿ May 17, 2012 04:02

Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

Evil Mastermind posted:

This is steadily becoming less and less of a joke and more of my official stance.

Honest question, Mastermind: have you ever seen any of the lunacy in this thread in the actual real world at a game table? I mean, I haven't, I presume this is just an internet phenomenon.

# ¿ May 17, 2012 04:07

Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

Elfgames posted:

I'm pretty sure a setting in which it's possible to gain magical power through rape is some kind of issue.

We already went over this. If you don't believe my "that's obviously a bad guy thing" theory, just say so. Or just ask Geoffrey.

# ¿ May 17, 2012 04:10

Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

dirtycajun posted:

The reason why I left my original high school gaming group came down to my first experience with rape in a game. Me and a few of my friends had a regular 3.0 game that transitioned into 3.5. Games were held, jokes were had, monsters killed. Loot abounded. The way all good games should be. Then one game took a very very disturbing turn.

Our GM decided that he was going to hit on another player through the actions of characters in the game. At the time I didn't see this for what it was but it became clear later on. The GM began his advances on the male player slowly, a few light innuendos from the local duke, mysterious in game gifts. I have no problems with gay characters so this didn't really set off any alarm bells, seemed like an in game romance of a sort. The player started to reciprocate to the DMNPC until the game just got to the point where the GM and player were just having there romance while the rest of us kind of sat there bored.

Eventually the duke had the party arrested, for what it seemed as just a bullshit excuse to get closer to the character in question. Except instead of just using it as a way to get closer the GM did something so much worse.

"The jailer, another guard, and the duke are standing before your cells, the duke points at [character] and the jailer opens the cell as the guard yanks you out. They then pin him to the wall and the duke nods with a small smile on his face. They proceed to rip off your clothes..."

This then devolves into a narrated rape scene where the duke just stands there nodding approvingly as the player starts trying very hard to stop it. The GM keeps narrating. While staring at the player.

I was young and didn't no what was going on, so after this happened I just left the game very very confused and made up my mind not to game with my friends anymore. I never explained to them why, I refused to talk about it. Years later I found out that the player and GM had become lovers so I guess it worked out for them or something.

Thus begins the 6 year quest to find a gaming group that doesn't support rape. It is a long journey and it spanned over 20 gaming groups until I found a total of 3 that don't rape in game.

If there was enough booze to make me forget I have not found it.

Jesus christ. No wonder.

# ¿ May 17, 2012 04:11

Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

New question:

How many people here have had experiences like this?

# ¿ May 17, 2012 04:13

Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

Red Mage:

1. Is just weird to you. The real action is not on the forums it's on the blogs. Forums are crazy. All forums.
Also: if you get mad when a rocking chair softie like James Mal talks about what he personally likes in games you are literally being way too sensitive. that guy is Mr Not Offensive This Is Just My Opinion Here.

2. The retroclones are mostly useless. They are not the important thing: the best of the OSR is not about the clones, it's about the adventures, supplements and modifications that are system-agnostic.

3. Is all crazy talk from space and you guessing and ascribing insane motives to people you don't know. Nostalgia plays no part in why a 23 year old from the Phillipines likes rules-lite mechanics.

Prescription for Red Mage: read some blogs. Get on G+ if you're not already. Play some games.

# ¿ May 17, 2012 04:20

Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

Evil Mastermind posted:

I game with about a dozen different people all told in realspace and most of them don't care about the industry at large.

Does it bother you that they don't care?

Feel free to not answer if that's an invasive question.

# ¿ May 17, 2012 04:22

Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

Red_Mage posted:

My biggest issue with "stay on the blogs" is that so many of the blogs are just as bad.

Vague.

quote:

As I said a significant portion of OSR blogs are either run by megalomaniacs who delete dissent,
I dunno about eve
Crybabies who cannot tolerate criticism, or Jerks who openly edition war and bitch constantly about other people having fun.

I can't speak for anyone else: I delete people who edition war and crybabies who complain about other peoples' fun for pretty much the same reason anyone running a 1000-reader forum would: I want my page to have discussion about games, not be a clone of this thread or RPGsite full of personal sniping. Works pretty well too.

quote:

Can you suggest some good blogs to me? Aside from joeski that is.

My blogroll, especially Jeff's Gameblog, Monsters and Manuals, How to Start a Revolution in 21 days or Less, Monster Manual Sewn From Pants, Huge Ruined Pile, and The RPG Corner.

And if you say you haven't read those then I'll say what I've been saying all along: your OSR is apparently completely divorced from the one I know and love.

quote:

I have literally not single OSR "supplement" that would offer me anything of use for my game, since I don't use adventures, and I tend to run exclusively "modern" systems, that often make tables of tables unneeded. Can you suggest perhaps an original setting that isn't reprehensible to me that would change my mind?

"Modern" as in "not medieval"? Or "modern" as in what?

I mean, off the top of my head, Huge Ruined Scott's Dwarfland and Monster Manual Sewn From Pants' recent Planescape hacks are interesting as is Monsters and Manuals' Yoon Suin.

quote:

but with the time you've spent on RPG.net you cannot in good conscience say that OSR games aren't primarily by 40 somethings who grew up nerdy for 40 somethings who grew up nerdy.

It doesn't say peoples' ages on rpg.net but literally everyone where I know their age (mostly from G+) other than Maliszewski and maybe Rient is in the 20-39 range and all my players are early to mid 20s and "nostalgia gamers" are seen as boring hacks who don't do anything new with the old ideas.

The "nostalgia gamer" thing is a dismissive product of this here echo chamber. It is an explanation-on-faith. And it assumes bad faith on the part of anybody who claims to actually like to use mechanics for their own sake. It's one of those things that makes no sense but keeps getting said over and over here anyway.

# ¿ May 17, 2012 04:39

Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

Red_Mage posted:

You are basically doing the whole No True Scotsman thing here. It doesn't help your point. Whether you like them or not, those people are part of "the OSR" and they are TBQH they are the most vocal part. It doesn't much matter one way or another if all your 20 something google plus friends all think that emulating the 70s is the best form of design, the people at the gaming store telling me to play DCC instead of "that MMO on paper" are still going to be the face of the OSR as long as people keep linking the Old School Primer and quoting E. Gary Gygax.

I don't know the people at your gaming store. All I know are the people whose blogs I read and who comment on my page. This is the OSR to me.

If you want to have a stereotype knock yourself out. But it's like anything else: what kind of game you play means gently caress all. Some people are cool, some people hate on other peoples' fun. Of those who hate such fun, about half are here and the other half are on the RPGsite.

Also the "emulating the 70s" thing is either a bad faith comment or badly badly misinformed. Again: read around. The world is not so terrible as the part of it you grogmine.

# ¿ May 17, 2012 04:50

Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

ZenMasterBullshit posted:

No one cares

If someone posts "the OSR is a bunch of fat neckbeards who are 40 who play because of nostalgia in their mom's basements" and they don't care if that is true or not then it is really transcendantly interesting to me to find why someone doesn't care why what that they just said is true or not.

If it doesn't interest you, you don't have to read it.

# ¿ May 17, 2012 05:00

Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

Red_Mage posted:

I have really been avoiding doing exactly this, and I am a peevish jerk by nature, so like you really shouldn't.

Let me put this in clear terms. I am very glad that you are having fun with a group of people and designers who profess to the "OSR" ideals, that does not make them an accurate representative sample. Furthermore, you should not take it personally when this thread criticizes a representative sample like say, Dragonsfoot, because you have voluntarily thrown your lot in with them.

You are admitting that your interaction is with a rather small subset of the community at large, and you are dismissing the rest of the community in a "not my OSR" type gesture. That doesn't make them any less valid samples than your small network.

I am even all for the fun haters on K&K having their fun, but since they hate fun, its easier to just mock them, and let them serve as a reminder of where this hobby could end up if people don't innovate and grow and make/play cool things.

Just don't use sentences saying "the OSR is..." and we're fine. It is exactly precisely entirely totally as ignorant as saying "People who play 4e are all..." and it helps make the world dumber.

# ¿ May 17, 2012 05:01

Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

Red_Mage posted:

That's almost a salient point, until I remember that one is an industry and design school and collection of communities and the other is a direct group of people. The difference is one has a manifesto.

Again: agreeing with the Old School Primer in every detail is only considered a requirement for OSR membership within this here thread you yourselves created.

Do you understand that?

# ¿ May 17, 2012 05:04

Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

ZenMasterBullshit posted:

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Games > Traditional Games > Grognards.txt: Please follow Zak S's guide to posting.

You yourself have admitted to only talking with a small part of what could be considered OSR and only define OSR as that group you like. By your points neither you don't have any right or ground to say what OSR is or isn't, which makes this whole spiel both hilariously ironic and pointless because all it boils down to is "NOT MY OSR!". You really should listen to your own advice.

As I have repeatedly said "The whole OSR..." isn't...anything.

Once you agree to stop pretending it is, we're good.

# ¿ May 17, 2012 05:06

Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

Syrg Sapphire posted:

100% nostalgically

Nostalgia forms no part of my attachment to the game. I have way more fun now playing than I did as a kid.

And no, I didn't meet any wannabe rapists or My Game Or Nothing bullies. I play with people I like or don't play. It's the number one rule.

# ¿ May 17, 2012 05:13

Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

Pangalin posted:

If the OSR is so nebulous and vague as to defy any kind of definition whatsoever then I'm not sure what harm could be done by slandering it.

You could say that about a race or religious creed. You'd be wrong.

As i said earlier: the only commonality in the OSR is the belief that there are design and setting features that were in older games and are not in newer ones that were not poo poo.

And, often, a belief that new and interesting gaming tools can be built on these things.

If you think everyone who believes those two things and blogs about it and has the little OSR logo on teir blog is....anything, you're just grogging, basically.

# ¿ May 17, 2012 05:16

Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

This is just grog.

ZenMasterBullshit posted:

^^^^^^^^^^^^ What I mean is this, but much more aggressively stated.

Sorry man, I understand not wanting to be lumped in with the kind of people that get quoted here, but you get judged by how the group acts. It's idiotic to come in here and cry "But not all 100% OSR people are like this!" because that's just something that's kind of understood by anyone who can think.

"Stereotypes are cool".

# ¿ May 17, 2012 05:17

Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

Red_Mage posted:

Take what I just said and apply it to the OSR. I am fully aware not every person involved with the OSR agrees with the Old School Primer, but then again, they are voluntarily aligning themselves in name with those who do.

Where did this idea that the Old School Primer written by Matt Finch to sell Matt Finch's game was some sort of sacred constitution come from?

This is a thing you made up. I understand your commitment to grogplaining may make it hard emotionally to realize that, but it happens to be true. I'd be kinda surprised if, say Scrap Princess, ever even read the Old School Primer. I doubt I've ever linked to it. I've probably read it once, ever, 4 years ago.

It isn't our Communist Manifesto. But it sure is conveniently named for your stereotype.

# ¿ May 17, 2012 05:21

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# ¿ May 7, 2024 20:06

Zak S: Mar 1, 2012

Your main complaint here is that some people stereotype and hate on 4e fans.

Don't be disingenuous.

# ¿ May 17, 2012 05:22

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