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Does Paramount have anything major before the end of the year coming out? If not for the GIJoe delay until next year, I could have honestly thought it would have been the best place for a JJTrek 2 teaser trailer to start pumping up interest for next Summer.
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Jul 13, 2012 09:19
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All those movies seem a little too adult-aimed, though. Given the current media reaction to the Cruise divorce, I wonder if Paramount might want to intentionally distance a big film like Trek 2 from getting the first teaser or full trailer attached to it. (Of course, a lot can change in several months) Paramount is distributing "Rise of the Guardians" and Chris Pine does a voice in it, so I'm almost willing to bet that might end up being a likely choice for the first teaser trailer.
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Jul 13, 2012 09:44
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Astroman posted:I've always hoped this, and it's how I've thought they could set up a meeting with Kirk and Khan-Starfleet sends him to bring back the Botany Bay after Old Spock gives them it's location, and the younger Kirk cockily wakes him up and Khan runs circles around him in a way that he never could have even in Space Seed. Sharing what he DID know of the future might have been more akin to him giving Starfleet a bunch of alternate reality fiction. Just the destruction of the Kelvin did MAJOR damage to what he knew as history, so just imagine how much he might know of future history could have been changed by the destruction of a large portion of the fleet, Vulcan and all events, breakthroughs, mistakes, triumphs and discoveries made by populations and peoples that will no longer exist as they should have. The Federation HE knew is gone and it is never going to come back. However, he might also think that due to the corruption of the timeline by one force would require him to share knowledge to balance the damage that was done. It might also be an issue that Future Spock shares a lot of this information with Starfleet and the Federation and it unintentionally causes a change in the power structure of the universe, maybe even turning Starfleet into a more aggressive organization after the events of the first film. Knowing about things like the giant space amoebas and doomsday devices and how to stop them well before they become a threat, knowing of areas of space where the deep dark secrets of the universe are housed, it might make them a bit trigger happy, territorial and even arrogant. Let's say he warns them of the Botany Bay: Starfleet maybe considers the notion that, "This is a ship full of criminals who escaped justice centuries ago, who would have otherwise attempted to take over one our ships, succeeded in doing so of another and killing that ship's entire crew, attempted to destroy another ship, attempted to steal a technology to use as a WMD, etc." In short, Starfleet might be willing for let their typical laws slide and just kill it because these are 'known' bad guys that they don't have time to mess with. Maybe this sort of attitude, maybe coupled with a failure to get the job done right, results in someone surviving for revenge or inspires someone to rage against the the system. Whoever Cumberbatch is in this movie, one thing I will say is that the design of his coat's lapels DO remind me a bit of Khan's Augments fashions from TWOK. But the Peter Weller thing in the movie makes me wonder something else, too. He was in Enterprise as a leader of a Pro-human/Earth movement. At the same time, there was a genetic superman (Khan's augments) storyline from the same series. It's possible that many of these things will tie in together. Weller's character secretly supporting illegal augmented human research seems in line with his pro-human stance. Cumberbatch could be one of the eventual results of that research or somehow related to Khan's Augments in some other way. Doubtful, though, given how poorly Enterprise resonated with the public, but it is still the only one of the TV series that might be completely unaffected by the events of the first JJTrek film, too.
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Dec 7, 2012 09:41
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MikeJF posted:Maybe, but there were so many near misses by things that are definitely still out there that he really should warn them, because really the odds of them making it through, say, V'Ger or Whale Probe are practically nil. They just got incredibly lucky the first time around. Which JJTrek IV should be about the crew traveling back to the 80s and constantly running into their original Trek IV actor selves and hiding before they see them. Then Spock realizes, "We need the whales to save OUR timeline, and the timeline they come from may no longer exist for THEM to save once they leave this era." Then New Kirk and company have to find another set of whales to take back to the future with them. Eventually, the many repeated changes to the timeline gets so muddled that the population of California, for brief moment in the 80s, has a huge spike made up mostly of time traveling crews of the Enterprise collecting whales. Eventually one of the crews realize, "These whales didn't go extinct because of people from the 20th century!! IT'S BEEN US! IT'S BEEN US THE WHOLE TIME! It's been people from the future coming back to this exact moment in time to SAVE the whales that we are the ones that caused them to go extinct in the first place in this era! WE'RE the ones who have been overfishing them!!" "Whales are not fish, Captain." "..."
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Dec 7, 2012 10:05
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Young Freud posted:They would still exist in the new timeline as artifacts of time travel between timelines, akin to the jet engine in Donnie Darko. It's an unexplained anomaly (this mysterious fat Scotsman appeared and gave a company the patent for transparent aluminum back in the '80s and is involved in a whale kidnapping) that does have an explanation (time travel). Just because there's time travel that happens later in the series canon doesn't mean it didn't happen in the JJTrek Universe. A long time ago I thought it would have been sort of interesting in JJTrek or Enterprise to show off a temporal artifact division, so to speak, where there were people in charge of collecting and cataloging chronological displacement events and items that didn't make sense to belong. It'd be a bit of an fun callback to all the time-travel shenanigans that happened in Trek over the years: The remains of Spock's computer from Edge of Forever, a TNG era commbadge that was damaged, hints of things that hadn't happened that could be played out in other series, movies or episodes and potentially things that in that timeline could seemingly NEVER happen but still existed anyway.
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Dec 7, 2012 11:02
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After just now getting back from the movie, I found it still suffered from a lot of the issues I had with the 2009 remake, but it also had a lot of things going on for it, too, that made me at least try to overlook them. I think the largest problem with the film is the same as other films over the last few years that happen to be conveniently complex to the point of feeling convoluted and also have a lot of annoying little issues that feel more like forced plot holes. -Khan's augmented blood can bring back dead tribbles and heal sick little girls: We've got to get him because we don't have 72 other augments to thaw out and take some blood from. I know that we never know if this is a unique trait of Khan blood or if something all augments have, though. The film doesn't ask this question and I guess we're not supposed to either. -It's lucky Khan was able to extort someone connected to Section 31 who happened to have a sick kid. I would have sacrificed Khan's magical blood side plot with perhaps hint that Khan intentionally caused her to either have an unknown illness that he alone could provide an unknown cure for in order to force the guy's hand. Either that, or have a revelation after his surrender that Kirk and company have to be screened/treated for minor radiation exposure because that area of Kronos is unoccupied for a reason. Kirk, Spock and Uhura test positive for easily treated exposure, but Khan shows nothing after being there for much longer than them with less protection, leading to a eureka moment from Bones who can treat a transfusion as a hail mary. The tribble bit just sort of felt forced to give them an instant answer to a sudden problem. It felt like a lot of heart was missing from the film, it lacked a lot of the charm that the 2009 movie had. Also, I think the Carol Marcus character was totally wasted a bit. She didn't really add anything to the movie and having her OUT of the film might have forced the crew to start questioning things a bit more that she was there to lead them to. Despite all my complaints, I think its script wasn't as good as IM3, but I enjoyed the overall film a lot more than IM3.
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May 17, 2013 07:42
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Cumberbatch was great, he didn't ruin this movie or bring it down. The only thing he was really lacking was the sense of a warm and cordial, yet elitist demeanor that Ricardo Montalban portrayed in the role that gave his cruelty a facade of enlightened civility. I think the weakest parts of the movie was the Spock/Uhura bit that I found was handled a lot better in the first film than this one. Given how much both films have replaced Bones with Uhura as part of the Big 3 of the crew, it would have probably benefited a lot to have kept the entire Carol Marcus character out to give us more time to focus on her and Spock's status. I even though Peter Weller came off really great as a gruff Admiral in almost every scene he was in up until the last half of the film. Also, could anyone with a sharper eye than mine spot anything in the Section 31 lab easter egg-wise? JediTalentAgent fucked around with this message at 08:14 on May 17, 2013 |
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May 17, 2013 08:10
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Yeah, that was the only thing I noticed, too. If I get tempted to give it a rewatch, I'll keep my eyes peeled a little closer. I do admit I was really impressed with the script that it did sort of mention how Starfleet, after the destruction of Vulcan, became more aggressive in searching space to prepare for unknown threats, leading to the discovery of Khan sooner. I KNOW this can't be another of the Trek anime homages, and it'd be a real stretch if it were, but I found it sort of amusing in hindsight that having identical twin catgirls made me think of the Puma Sisters from Tank Police.
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May 17, 2013 08:27
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I've started to think Eve was supposed to be Nurse Chapel, originally, but they couldn't figure out how to make her a main character of the plot where her character wouldn't have been so easily able to fit in with the rest of the major bridge crew or work out any elements of her character's original Spock relationship in light of Uhura being there without making it come off as an inappropriate workplace crush. So, that's when they pulled out the Marcus angle and went with that. I sort of think there is a line of dialogue that sort of works a bit better if you think about it that way... The line where Marcus mentions her friend Chapel's failed relationship with Kirk and how she went off to do a space assignment to start over I think works better with continuity the other way around: If the line was coming from Chapel, discussing Marcus, it would let hardcore Trek fans say, "Wow, we can infer this is when Marcus left Kirk and decided not to tell him she was pregnant with his kid." All things considered, though, I REALLY enjoyed how the first 5 minutes of the film felt so much like the sort of fun, action-adventure I'd like to see from Trek sometimes while the rest of the film was all dark and violent. JediTalentAgent fucked around with this message at 10:31 on May 17, 2013 |
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May 17, 2013 10:26
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I think maybe another issue, too, is that both this film and the last film both featured a lot of the same themes: We had Spock losing his poo poo in both after losing people, we had Kirk being a reckless playboy jerk who breaks all the rules and wants to hunt down father(-figure) killers. If this had been a bit more introspective a film, I would have legitimately like to have seen Spock going through perhaps the final stages of psychological counseling near the start of the film, or being forced to undergo an eval after the events of the intro to let us see and hear in his own words what he cannot tell Kirk or Uhura. Is he reacting normal for a human, or is it an aberration as a Vulcan? By the same token, I would have liked to have seen Kirk mature a bit by now. Maybe in a third film, should it occur, we'll see him more along the lines of Kirk from TOS, confident enough and mature enough to act on his feelings but keeping them in check.
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May 17, 2013 10:55
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Thom12255 posted:McCoy only knew for sure that Khan's blood had those properties and needed the blood as soon as possible to save Kirk so saving Khan was the best and least risky option. The defrosting part I have no idea, it seems like a big hole and I don't even see the need for it to be, it's not like it was ever a plot point that they couldn't be defrosted, they just brought it up for no reason. Given how powerful Khan was in this film as opposed to Space Seed and TWOK, I honestly think a single throw away line could have helped set up WHY that's the case: Just have a quick reference to Khan's genetics and modern technology were a perfect match. Khan's was able to 'upgrade' his own superior physiology to even greater extremes by taking advantage of Starfleet medical technology that was unimaginable in his era to achieve a state closer to his idea of superhuman perfection: Stronger, faster, smarter, more immune to illness, etc. It could explain his uniqueness a bit as potentially a 'one-off' that hadn't had the chance to share those same traits with the others.
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May 18, 2013 05:43
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All things considered, I think I would have liked the Admiral Marcus plot if he was less a gung-ho warmonger but someone who made a big mistake, was trying to cover his own rear end, digging himself deeper and trying to bury the Khan problem by throwing a known reckless Captain at him that he could then feed to the wolves, if need be, as a scapegoat to protect his own career and interests. We get a little hint of that, but it might have just been an act. Sure, it would have maybe would have made him seem weak instead of strong, but it would have done a lot more to show how manipulative and dangerous Khan was. and how the higher-ups in Starfleet were now pants-shittingly running for their reputations, careers, lives, etc.
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May 18, 2013 05:57
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The reveal probably would have worked better if he was just John Harrison. I think that could have worked maybe even better within the context of the film. They don't thaw out Khan, they thaw out one of the other random augments. It could have given a little better insight into Khan's cult of personality. Harrison is as Kirk and Spock: A son who has their most important parental/mentor-figure taken away from them and deals with it in his own way. Harrison isn't Khan, he's not the great man. Beneath all his so-called superiority, he's still in the shadow of Khan's greatness, even in a frozen state. He isn't angry at this, but it could have made him bolder, seeing himself as the lone instrument who can bring about the return of true leader and the rest of his kind. He's not only operating to save his family but he's doing what he does to do what Kirk cannot do: Bring his lost father(-figure) back. Also, to go back the JJTrek 1, I still thought Chekov and Spock could have had a bit of a bonding relationship. Kirk and Spock are friends, but make Chekov sort of like Spock's little brother who's eager to please and impress his superior. When Chekov fails to save Spock's mom, his failure could have scarred him emotionally, he outwardly is troubled by it more than Spock can even display. Eventually have Spock come along to coolly and logically reassure him of his skills later in the film when he's needed again. This forms a bit of a connection between him and Spock, where the latter could have found a certain logical kinship in Chekov's natural mathematics abilities, seeing potential in mentoring him for more advanced applications of his talents. Spock becomes to Chekov what Pike is to Kirk. When Chekov has to don a red shirt, it's a hint that he's going to die. He's still in Engineering, so eager to please, so eager to not disappoint, still thinking he didn't do enough to prevent this from happening, he's the one to jump into the reactor to save the ship. When the crew finds Chekov dying, it's unexpected and maybe more painful. He's the most innocent among them, the most likeable and gentle among them. A role reversal to the rest of the themes of losing father/mentor-figures, mentor Spock is now losing his trusting pupil. Spock is witnessing a pupil putting the philosophies of 'needs of the many' to their ultimate conclusion, and it's killing them both. Also, being Chekov, there's the potential of him ACTUALLY dying because he's not one of the other higher ranking crewmen/actors in the films.
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May 18, 2013 11:04
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MikeJF posted:Just got back from second viewing. Quick notes: One thing I have disliked about both the Trek films have been very inconsistent travel time issues/distance issues. It probably doesn't bother most viewers but it's sort of annoying to me because it makes some things feel like they SHOULD be more important into nothing. UNLESS, there's some version of time dilation going on where perhaps several days of 'real time' has passed for the universe, but the crews feel only minutes go by in warp? Either that, or the Marcus Ship's superwarp drive was able to go at faster than normal speeds and could sweep up the Enterprise in it's warp corridor, bringing them to Earth a lot quicker than the Enterprise would have been capable of on its own.
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May 18, 2013 12:52
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I Am A Robot posted:The only "plot hole" I don't have an answer to is at the start of the film. Why would they hide the Enterprise under the ocean and not just keep it in orbit? That way they would have had no problems transporting everyone back, especially Spock and the natives would have been none the wiser. I think it's fun to analyze the internal consistency of movies but I don't think any of these issues had a negative impact on the film. It was a quick mention, but they bring up the classic 'magnetic interference' thing that was making their transporters ineffective at distance. Just to play this out, though: My impression of screen time/doing stuff/plot development breakdown of the film for the Ent. crew. I get that Spock, Kirk and Uhura are the big three of this franchise, but Scotty, Bones, Sulu and Chekov felt more or less like they were only written in the film to give them specific plot-moving scenes and then be forgotten. White-haired bridge girl and LCD Head guy felt like they were more interesting to watch when they showed up on screen.
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May 18, 2013 19:01
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Mr. Jive posted:I had the exact same sneaking suspicion. Crazy. That said, it's difficult letting the last 10 minutes get in the way of my enjoying the other 120. I also sort of think the ending might have worked better with Spock and Kirk both chasing down Khan through SF. While Spock is able to keep up on foot, Kirk is taking advantage of Enterprise transporter tech to help him to keep up once or twice to assist at the very end when Spock needs help. It could be a variation on the theme of Space Seed where Kirk is no match for Khan physically, but he's able to use tools at his disposal to help even the odds.. I just don't think Uhura worked in that regard as part of the showdown and it felt forced. Going back a few posts with my suggestion that Chekov should have died in the reactor, they could have even come up with a contrivance to be Uhura instead of Kirk or Spock to suffer something horrific through the events of the film's climax. Again, the film sort of set this up with his talk to Uhura about removing emotion in the face of death and the status of their relationship. Where Uhura has had to deal with Spock risking his life and potentially being dead, the end of the film flips it around where Spock has to deal now with hers and finally has to see from her perspective how she's felt about the thought of losing him. A KHAAAAN scream at that moment where Kirk is fighting to maintain his cool and Spock is going ballistic over Uhura's presumed death I think could have ended up being so much better. Kirk, not Uhura, telling him in repressed anger "Go get that son of a bitch..." I think might have been a more stand up and cheer moment.
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May 19, 2013 07:52
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I think, though, in order to still have it be Chekov just a little bit would need to be added to the script to give him a slightly larger presence within the crew and really up the whole, "Oh crap, they killed Chekov! Why?!" and building him up a slight bit more of a connection with an audience so that the fear that could have been real that it might even be permanent. I could see Spock giving a eulogy, even, describing him along the lines of, "He stood out among an already exceptional crew. We knew him as gifted, innocent, inquisitive. He gave of himself to aid others with no thought of himself. Of all the souls I have met on my travels, his was the most..." his voice breaking, "...human." JediTalentAgent fucked around with this message at 08:19 on May 19, 2013 |
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May 19, 2013 08:17
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Now that San Francisco half destroyed by a terrorist does this mean the universe might diverge into the Babylon 5 timeline?
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May 19, 2013 08:40
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You know, it didn't even have to be Kronos they went to. Marcus says the Klingons had taken over a few worlds, already. Have Harrison go to a world closer to Earth/Federation space that the Klingons have claimed dominion over in the last few years. It's still somewhere Starfleet cannot openly go without creating an incident, but the aftermath probably could play a lot better by framing it around a failed mission for former Federation citizens trapped under Klingon rule, or the a mission to neutralize a sensitive Starfleet resource that was left on the planet, that resulted in a harsh Klingon response. That could be enough to spark a war between the powers.
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May 19, 2013 10:29
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Which, it probably should have been Uhura's near-death to drive him into a murder frenzy. Spock was helpless in the last film at watching his mother die, a powerful and positive link to his past life taken away. Now he could helpless watch Uhura die, the woman who he thought to be his connection towards a positive future. Into Darkness is a movie I enjoyed, but drat if the story and script don't leave me wanting to have seen a lot of changes and improvements.
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May 19, 2013 13:02
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Cojawfee posted:It would be nice if they'd just give Shatner a cameo just so he could shut the hell up about it. How they could have done it would be the radiation ages Kirk in seconds, gradually morphing him into William Shatner. End of the film, Kirk decides he needs to jump rope for a while...
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May 19, 2013 21:02
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GATOS Y VATOS posted:I really enjoyed that the Klingons have gotten a big makeover. I have, frankly, been really loving tired of them for quite a while now. And I really am looking forward to seeing them in future movies. Personally, I don't think they really got a big makeover at all. If anything they really amplified the post-1980s depiction of the characters greatly. I would have much rather seen them taken back to their more TOS nature of savvy cunning and suave passion. In short, team that version of them Khan and I think it shows a bit of a similarity in the natures and attitudes of both: Each believing they're the superior culturally, physically and intellectually and it's a series of betrayals on all sides that Harrison is manipulating to force Starfleet invest in releasing his family, restarting augment research, etc..
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May 20, 2013 23:30
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ChronoReverse posted:I wonder why people fixate on dying as if dying in itself is something that make for good plot. On the other hand, Kirk makes a big deal at the start of the film about how he's had the fewest number of deaths on his ship compared to other vessels in Starfleet. Yeah, I get that he shows a lot of humility and learns consequences by about start of the 3rd act, but I think him having to directly face the death of a crewman under his command would have cemented some more character development. That's why I still think Chekov would have been better: Kirk forces Scotty to leave the Enterprise and forces Chekov to don the ominous red shirt to take his place. Chekov becomes the Spock/Scotty's Nephew from TWoK and we could also give it a bit of a Kurst, K-19, Chernobyl angle if we're going back as far as 9/11 for inspiration. Also, while I LIKE the guy who does Chekov in the movies, killing him could allow them to maybe later replace him in the next movie with perhaps his sister like a "Katya Chekova" or something to help add some more women to the main bridge crew and still keep A Chekov aboard.
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May 22, 2013 07:18
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I think a lot of these complaints would have just vanished if they had just used half the elements of the plot, gotten rid of the whole human augment stuff, and had Cumberbatch as a surgically altered Klingon. Again, that would have been as much a call back to TOS elements and maybe even done something like given us room to build up the JJTrek universe more. "John Harrison" is a deep-cover operative with complex issues going on. He's a valuable soldier for the Klingons, but he's aware that they view him as beneath them because he's weaker and different and must always redouble his efforts to prove his value. Unlike most other Klingons, he's able to pass as human more easily with extensive genetic and physical alterations. Around humans, he feels superior, almost superhuman compared to most: He finally knows how it feels to be his brothers. It could create a situation where he, while working both the Federation and Klingons against one another, his true loyalties originally lie with the Klingons until he decides they've mocked him long enough and he decides to bring both great powers down out of anger.
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May 23, 2013 09:28
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Improbable Lobster posted:A movie about the one Klingon nerd would be pretty hilarious. On Kronos in the beginning of the film heès wimpy, weak-willed and dishonorable. When he finally returns after his stay on Earth, heès realized that he can be strong, confident and honorable while still pursuing his dream of getting his degree in Starship design. I could see where there could be some humor in it, but imagine Cumberbatch playing Harrison as someone who is a Klingon version of a psychopath. He's physically weaker than a normal Klingon, but more than that he's an outcast in his mental state, as well. He's got something going on mentally that makes him more dangerous than they could ever dream of being. His 'unnatural' emotional states make him a better candidate than others to mimic what they see as the unfocused human mental condition. Similarly, perhaps training to make him more easily pass as human only further serves to alienate him more. It could be interesting that perhaps he comes to actually find the Federation the 'better' society, the one he actually has a chance of feeling normal in, but he's a Klingon, and he must deny himself to fulfill his Klingon honor; taking no pleasure from destroying Starfleet, but at the same time neither hesitating or retreating from doing so to the fullest of his ability. Edit: or just make Cumberbatch play a younger Koloth, Kor or Kang in this timeline where Klingons are still in their TOS mode. edit2: Or just have him play a very young Chang in his early career with both eyes. It could give him a chance to quote Shakespeare, be cunning and devious, and given how that character had more subtle Klingon feature we could sort of tone them down a bit more on Cumber-Chan. I think this would have probably been the better turn with the actor and the part. Chang isn't the icon that his real character is, but he's still a similarly well-respected enemy from the later parts of the TOS film franchise. JediTalentAgent fucked around with this message at 10:51 on May 23, 2013 |
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May 23, 2013 10:35
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The whole Harrison reveal and the del Toro dropping out with Cumberbatch stepping in makes me wonder, too, if we are looking at a film with a horribly mangled script because they quickly rewrote a script around that change. This is just a theory with no evidence to back it up, but it appears they spent a long time just trying to get a script together. I sort of wonder if the original plan was supposed to be del Toro as lead villain with a supporting right hand villain at his side: A Spock to his Kirk. With or without del Toro, they might have already thought about getting Cumberbatch who had just gotten a lot of geek buzz thanks to Sherlock in the last year. Once del Toro decided not to be in the film, they went and combined the once two characters into a single one to maximize the ever-growing Cumberbatch popularity and fan-swooning. I know this sound almost like a stupid thought, but Harrison never really had a 'henchman' type figure that most characters in films like this tend to have: You have the big bad guy, then you have a supporting follower who acts as a voice of concern, reason, exposition, etc., even if they only show up for a scene or two or exist in the background all the time. I know you CAN argue Admiral Marcus is that figure, but he doesn't feel that way to me. Harrison felt like he was missing someone loyal to him he could bounce plot points against. JediTalentAgent fucked around with this message at 14:13 on May 24, 2013 |
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May 24, 2013 14:11
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Now that the film has come out, it seems like there was a lot of room to build off the first film a bit more and have more of a story: Kirk and Company/Enterprise: The mission at the start of the film comes after what Kirk feels to be milk run missions being given to him by Starfleet. We get the sad truth of the matter. Starfleet has never thought Kirk to be a mature enough individual to be Captain, but left him in the position because of the really positive PR and popularity he brought with him after the Nero attack and have done all they can to give him missions that don't challenge him because they don't think he's up to it. While they HAVE had some standout missions in the last few years, they've been more the result of the Enterprise simply being in the right place, right time. Regardless of how well those unintended missions turned out, the events at the start of Into Darkness are the justification and popular reason Starfleet needs to bust him down a rank or two. We could extend this as Kirk balancing the need to prove himself as a competent captain who can take risks AND the sort of popular belief that he's too young and inexperienced and taking risks proves that. Have him meet seasoned captains of other vessels, both Starfleet and others, who treat him like a child and go so far as to ignore him. Post-Vulcan/Post-Nero Quadrant: Nero destroyed a planet and huge chunks of the Klingon and Starfleet fleets and crews. Maybe give us a hint that the future is diverging more and more as a result. Both powers are taking the opportunity to ramp up their production for space, but once smaller powers like the Cardassians and the Gorn are able to take advantage by pushing on the strained boundaries of both. The Klingons might be more apt to come to a negotiating table with the Federation if it meant they could focus their military on other parties giving them more troubles. Use the Klingons and/or Khan in a different way: Like I said earlier, use Cumberbatch as a younger Chang, or have Khan found by the Klingons first, who proceeds to wreck up their stuff on both sides with the support of a rogue Klingon faction to disrupt any improved relations between the powers. I know this is still a 'younger', 'more fratboyish' and 'more hothead' Kirk, but we had that in the first film. Kirk should still have some youthful enthusiasm to him, but all of his personality should be a bit more mature and savvy by now and getting away from his almost pathetic level of womanizing.
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May 25, 2013 07:35
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I'm going to stay out of the 'racist Khan' debates here because no one is going to win it past this point. Instead, I want to talk about just the idea of WHY go with Khan. I think it was a cluster of problems. I think the biggest one was the filmmakers weren't confident enough to take a chance with audiences (both new and old) on a Trek sequel unless they had some recognizable villain coupled with probably what they saw as fan-demand for some recognition of TOS-era Trek storylines/characters. Unfortunately, for TOS-era baddies, there were only so many you can pull out that aren't cartoonish (Mudd, Space Nazis, Space Communists, brain-stealers, gangsters, Romans, fake gods, space hippies, godlike humans, godlike aliens, etc.) If they were to come up with a new, original threat or transplant a TNG-era threat into the universe, the larger complaint from the old fans would likely be centered around continuity, making stuff up, diverting too much from the source, etc. All of this fully taking into account that the alternate timeline stuff happened. If they went with a more obscure figure from the TOS-era and/or modified their character slightly, we'd get a lot of complaints about how why didn't they just make up a new character, why are they rehashing stuff from a TV show, why is it different if it's the same, when can we expect the cartoonish space nazis in the reboot films, etc. Khan is the best of both worlds: A TV/Movie figure that's recognizable and popular to both traditional Trek fanbase and a newer, non-Trek fanbase audience. A serious enemy in some serious Trek. But Khan's story wasn't really a story they needed to tell in the second film of this new series because they hadn't 'earned' that yet. Discounting his pre-thaw history, he's only really important to the Trek mythos for a single episode and a single legitimately great Trek movie where he did some pretty big stuff in terms of the franchise. Take Khan out of the movie entirely, remove the name Khan from everyone's lips from the film, and nothing in terms of plot really feels lost or gained, but it doing so also makes me feel the film would be a less bit less distracting, though. In STID, he suffers a lot from the issues that plagued the Star Wars prequels that I think Plinkett might have said: He's only important in this story because WE know he's important. I imagine how much better the ending of the film might have been when the shot of 'Harrison' sleeping in his cryopod is show, then we pull/pan out over a few unknown faces in their pods, with a quick few seconds of a CG'd 60s era Montelban's face still frozen in time beneath a frosted glass screen. It could have been Khan, but just like Nero changed the fate of Kirk, through a butterfly effect he changed the fate of even Khan. Maybe Harrison would have been in one of the failed cryopods in TOS and would have died if not for Nero changing the past. Now Khan will never have the hatred and blame of Kirk and Starfleet as TOS Khan had to drive him to the conclusion of TWOK. Instead, Khan will never even know a James T. Kirk ever existed and just sleep.
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May 27, 2013 08:05
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Question was not directed to me, but I've got an answer: He's got in-built geek popularity, makes women swoon and has an accent that make him come off as foreign to to American audiences. Not to get too deep into the whole casting thing, it's a problem with the NuTrek franchise that it's not a full reboot, so being able to actually address a lot of issues that concern modern audiences about the franchise is a little difficult because there's the whole, "Oh, Nero didn't change EVERYTHING!" argument, that anything that happened before the Kelvin is still part of TOS-through-Enterprise continuity and canon. Had this been a total reboot the chances are Chekov would have been cast as a woman, Bones might have been a non-white character, etc. Khan's origins could have likely been changed, too, if they still wanted a white guy to play the character. Example: If you're growing genetic supermen for a secret war between nations, you'd likely engineer a few to be able to pass as inconspicuous for foreign infiltration. India could have produced a slew of non-Indian augments, giving them Indian-sounding names to reinforce loyalty to their home county, and the Botany Bay could have been full of such characters: Asian, Hispanic, Black, White, Arab, etc.: All given Indian names. Explains a white guy named Khan... However, that's not part of the established pre-Kelvin history of the character, so even throwing in that line doesn't work with the fanbase.
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Jun 4, 2013 21:59
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All in all, though, if we get a Trek 2 didn't pull a larger new audience, so it's possible a Trek 3 might see a reduction down to a $120M budget, focus more on people than effects, etc. Maybe we'll see a massive Showtime revival of the series with the same actors. Honestly, I'd actually prefer the latter at this point. I'd rather watch see this crew do stuff in an episodic format where we can catch our breath and don't have to 'hypercharge' everything, build up a new mythology about the universe, take some chances and have some nuances that a 2hr movie won't allow for.
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Jun 5, 2013 01:27
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I recently got around to finally finishing the book "Enterprise: The First Adventure" by Vonda McIntyre and was sort of surprised with the relatively low rating on Amazon (3 stars) given what I felt to be a sort of fun story of the TOS crew and REALLY began to wish this movie had focused more on Klingons as antagonists because it went back to sort of the pre-TNG take of them. I mean, the plot on the first contact and the traveling show in the book was probably the weakest part, but it was I felt a legitimately charming take on the 'origin' of Kirk taking on the command of the Enterprise, how the crew gradually bonds despite their initial misgivings on their relationships to one another, etc. Even in that story, though, the Klingons and Starfleet deal with an uneasy peace that partially hinges on Kirk knowing that he can't just start a shooting fight with them in order to defend his position or else it WILL lead to a war. By about this point, I would have hoped the JJTrek series would have started doing some more universe-building exercises and done more to build a story that fleshed out the other well-known TOS Trek antagonists and I think that establishing the Klingons as the main antagonists in this film would have better than teasing us with cameos for the last two. Del Toro and Cumberbatch casting likely would have been better served as TOS/TOS-Movie variety Klingons than superhuman badguys.
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Jun 16, 2013 08:52
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korusan posted:Do the Tholians have a planet? They could make good use of their totally alien nature to have the Enterprise crew wear some special spacesuits to visit the place. There's gotta be some dough to make in extra suits/costumes for character action figures. Did Into Darkness even have a toy line? I didn't even notice one this time around, but to be fair I'm sure there's still plenty of leftover stuff from 2009 Trek still on the shelves. Not to say there wasn't a ton of promotional tie-ins, but I just didn't seem to notice the fast-food or toy presence for STID like I did about 4 years ago.
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Jul 2, 2013 14:21
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I've skimmed a few of the JJTrek comic books online and I'm sort of surprised that Cupcake's is featured in one of them. Given the fact that the reboot movie franchise will likely only tell 3 or 4 films worth of stories before it's done, has there been talk of novels based off the reboot universe to help better expand it? According to Memory Alpha, 4 announced books set in the new timeline were put on hold about 3 years ago.
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Aug 20, 2013 08:02
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It was a fun movie, but at the same time I think story-wise it was a complete mess. I don't think rehashing Wrath of Khan was really needed. Hell, I still think Cumberbatch would have made a better young Chang than Khan, just work that into a film, instead, and it would be a better character to explore. Starfleet Intelligence unknowingly infiltrated by a Klingon spy that accidentally uncovers a plot by a rogue Admiral to bring about a war between both parties could have been an interesting premise.
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Sep 1, 2013 02:37
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Hbomberguy posted:Something really irks me about the way STID pays lip service to so many aspects of Star Trek without really doing anything with them. The Prime Directive is referenced and established and then not much is really done with it again and everyone appears to ignore it, Tribbles are there because people know what Tribbles are, that sort of thing. Maybe I'm missing some deep and intricate sociological study where the point is everyone's ignoring the prime directive, but in a movie so on-the-nose with the rest of its plot I'd rather have seen the idea of the Prime Directive go somewhere rather than form the basis for the opening and then never get used again. The idea of not interfering with a planet fated to die is a really really cool thing to think about and I'm no Trekkie, but the episodes of the show that dealt with it are great. You know, to keep the War on Terror theme the film had going for it, you could have probably played around with some of the old TOS concepts of Klingons and Federation vying for expansion and coming in contact with the same worlds as one another. Federation have to specifically avoid prewarp worlds and become more like a guard to prevent undue contact from other powers, Klingons have no such issue and barge right through the front door with guns and weapons, leading to a lot of Prime Directive corruption and interpretation. We get 80s Space Afghanistan: Klingons are the Soviets, Enterprise is a covert support team trying to help freedom fighters in order to slow down a Klingon foothold in that section of the quadrant.
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Sep 21, 2013 19:42
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Fair enough, but STID just really failed to really connect with me on a story level. It was fun to watch, the performances were good, but the story was so all over the place where things didn't feel like they only knew they wanted to have things happen, things they wanted in it, but didn't know exactly how to tie all of that together. I figured with Trek 09, they were still trying to figure out that universe, figure out the new reality, and it was taking them a while to figure out the new franchise and how it should fit into the previous established films, TV and even books. It sort of felt like they were taking a bit more care enough to not get too deep into the historical canon of Trek and try to make a film that could stand on its own. Which, maybe is part of the problem with SITD with perhaps putting too much Trek into it this go around: We've got Klingons, Tribbles, Khan, Marcus, homages to specific moments from movies. On top of that, Superships, Kryptonian-level Khan, mystery popcicle missiles, etc. Strip some of that out, tone it down a wee bit, and I think they could have maybe put together a stronger script that focused in on half those points instead of trying to spread it out over all of that.
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Sep 22, 2013 00:12
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I could maybe accept the Klingon part of the story if the movie made slightly more emphasis on the Klingons being a threat. Other than being told the Klingons are up to no good, having something in the film show some examples that supported the Marcus agenda and that we were already at an active antagonistic state with them could have been useful in giving the characters added justification in being willing to launch missiles at their homeworld. The whole Klingon subplot feels like a speedbump.
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Sep 23, 2013 21:34
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Trek isn't all that married to constant internal consistency of time, space and technology all the time, but the JJTreks come out sort of slapdash and random in that regard. It's an element that's always sort of frustrating to argue because it almost comes off like I'm stubbornly refusing to accept JJTrek's creative decisions to tell a story while I was more accepting of previous Trek films/TV using similar tactics to tell their stories. The plot to STID feels like a series of happy accidents and contrivances, a steady stream of , "It just so happens..." sort of moments all throughout. I know Trek will not be consistent with itself all the time, every time, but the film seems to be more concerned about huge set pieces and the crafting together of a story to make all that work came second. JediTalentAgent fucked around with this message at 08:12 on Sep 25, 2013 |
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Sep 25, 2013 08:10
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Helsing posted:There were a lot of other increidbly stupid sequences in this movie - the part where Scotty sneaks his shuttle craft into the shuttle bay of a heavily guarded ultra secret warship also stands out - but the fact that the script writers were too lazy to think of a better reason for Khan to be there in the first place really says something about the priorities of the writers. Again, this is part of the reason that is so frustrating because I see all these individual plot elements that do go nowhere except to allow them to move from one scene to another as if by magic. Just like the Star Wars prequels, it's a very video game feeling movie where the story is less important than the action. Part of me also wants to tell filmmakers that we can have a our Western Political, Military and Industrial Complex stand-ins NOT be automatically EVIL AND CORRUPT every time we want to tell a story, too. I get it, we live in a crappy modern world full of that stuff and they're trying to make 9/11 analogies all over the place and I know this sounds admittedly naive, but why can't Starfleet be the sort of hopeful, competent and idealistic force for good organization that it was back in the TOS and TNG days, where obviously evil leaders felt far fewer and far between and it seems like they were used for better effect when introduced.
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Sep 25, 2013 18:20
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As a counterpoint though, didn't Scotty comment that Starfleet made him give up the formula for the long range transporter to them, so in theory anyone at Starfleet with some time and manpower could have maybe figured it out, too. Unless it was Khan who Marcus had doing all the transwarp teleporter work and literally no one else new how to do it.
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Sep 26, 2013 15:21
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