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School of How posted:The thing is, Dionysius Exiguus's original manuscripts doesn't survive. I'm looking for the oldest example that survives. Let me ask this question another way. Does anybody know of a surviving document or artifact from the years 1400 to 1484 that still exists and is believed to not be a fake, and also has the year written on it? OK. Here's Bede in The Reckoning of Time https://isidore.co/CalibreLibrary/B...able,%20St_.pdf quote:49. FORMULA FOR FINDING THE INDICTION So Bede is stating that the current year is 725 AD. Deteriorata fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Apr 15, 2024 |
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Apr 15, 2024 21:52
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School of How posted:The thing is, Dionysius Exiguus's original manuscripts doesn't survive. I'm looking for the oldest example that survives. Let me ask this question another way. Does anybody know of a surviving document or artifact from the years 1400 to 1484 that still exists and is believed to not be a fake, and also has the year written on it? Maybe the black book of carmarthen? Or the annales cambriae?
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Apr 15, 2024 22:01
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The question is biased as it assumes that there has only been one dating system in use, when that's not correct even for Roman history. But it makes me wonder how far and at what pace has the Christian dating system spread globally, compared to the alternatives. And how do we tell are e.g. North Koreans using the Juche calendar or the Gregorian calendar when they have both in use since 1997 (and there are no years Before Juche, 1912 is Juche 1 and the previous year is 1911). This is not a question. But feel free to comment if you feel so.
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Apr 15, 2024 22:02
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Deteriorata posted:The BC/AD system was proposed in 525 AD and spread rapidly, so there are likely going to be lots of documents from around that time dated that way. Jesus a “tyrant”?? Wikipedia getting opinionated
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Apr 15, 2024 22:11
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Grand Fromage posted:If you're going outside the AD system there are specific Roman dates pretty early on, ignoring legendary specific dates like April 21, 753. The earliest one I can think of is November 25, 571 BC for a triumph of Servius Tullius, who probably was real. Internet suggests tablets from the reigns of various Sumerian kings might be the winners if we stick with "original document must exist and have a date", like someone else said
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Apr 15, 2024 22:12
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Goatse James Bond posted:Internet suggests tablets from the reigns of various Sumerian kings might be the winners if we stick with "original document must exist and have a date", like someone else said In my opinion, it has to be an AD date. Yes, you can convert a date from one calendar system to another calendar system, that conversion is not perfect, especially when that calendar system is from pre-history. A date written in AD doesn't have to be converted, and therefore can be assumed to be completely accurate.
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Apr 15, 2024 22:20
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School of How posted:In my opinion, it has to be an AD date. Yes, you can convert a date from one calendar system to another calendar system, that conversion is not perfect, especially when that calendar system is from pre-history. A date written in AD doesn't have to be converted, and therefore can be assumed to be completely accurate. This is not true. Even if you stick just to AD, anything going from the Julian to Gregorian calendars requires date conversion. There are also plenty of fixed events you can use to calibrate conversions to ancient calendars, like solar eclipses. It's not perfect, but with cultures that kept accurate timekeeping and records (Romans and Chinese for two major examples, though it depends on period--both have some pretty wild times when the records get iffy) you can be sure you're within a few days. And to be nitpicky there's no such thing as a calendar from pre-history. Calendars are written so they are, by definition, historical. I'm sure people kept track of months prior to writing, you need to have some idea where you are in the year to do agriculture and a basic lunar calendar is pretty easy to do, but I'm not sure if there's archaeological evidence for it. E: What the gently caress am I thinking of course there's archaeological evidence for it. I'm dumb and being honest in my dumb by leaving it for you to enjoy. Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Apr 15, 2024 |
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Apr 15, 2024 22:31
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The oldest surviving Western paper document is the Missal of Silos. https://iconbpg.wordpress.com/2019/08/07/the-missal-of-silos-a-treasure-in-paper/
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Apr 15, 2024 22:37
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apparently the Gregorian calendar didn't arrive at a basically modern leap year until 1582 
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Apr 15, 2024 22:59
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It took even longer for it to be fully adopted, because it was seen as catholic. (And that's setting aside people outside of Europe who weren't using the Julian calendar in the first place)
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Apr 15, 2024 23:06
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The oldest surviving Western paper document is the Missal of Silos. According to that link, the author of that document never wrote what date it was written. Scholars have to use various methodologies to determine the age, and even then they don't have an exact age. If the author had written "This document is being written in 1089", then there would be no discussion, the exact date is right there. quote:he paper dates to the 11th century and depending on different sources, the very specific the dates of 1072 or even 1036 might appear. However, I have not found arguments strong enough for either of those dates. What is definitely true is that Manuscript number 6, as it is also known in the monastery, was definitely written before 1089 – and so, its paper, must predate that year as well. This is the thing I have noticed. Dates written are very rare (in any calendar system) from before the Renaissance in Europe. At some point during the late 15th century, for whatever reason, the AD dating system became common. What interesting about the late 1400s, is that since then the AD system has been in common and continuous usage. This si why Bede and Dionysus don't count. After they made their calculations, the system just did not see common and continuous usage. This is why it can be said that Albrecht Durer's drawing from 1484 is exactly 540 years old. There is no "some historians say its this old, and some, other historians think it's that old"
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Apr 15, 2024 23:23
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"franz, have you noticed how it seems like the seasons change just a little later every decade?"
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Apr 15, 2024 23:24
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Goatse James Bond posted:"franz, have you noticed how it seems like the seasons change just a little later every decade?" "Oh, Franz has died of plague. Bother."
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Apr 16, 2024 00:00
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School of How posted:In my opinion, it has to be an AD date. Yes, you can convert a date from one calendar system to another calendar system, that conversion is not perfect, especially when that calendar system is from pre-history. A date written in AD doesn't have to be converted, and therefore can be assumed to be completely accurate. This is true for the 2nd millennium BCE and earlier, but in the first millennium BCE we can be quite confident about our conversions. The Assyrian calendar named each year after an official who held a certain office (similar to the Roman system of dating by consuls, or the Athenian system of dating by archons). Several 7th century BCE copies of the Assyrian year name list record that in the year when Bur-Sagalę held the office of limmu, a total solar eclipse was observed in the month of Simanu. Thanks to the magic of astronomy, we know exactly when every solar eclipse has ever happened. The only solar eclipse that was visible in Assyria that matches the roughly known time frame of this era occurred on June 15, 763 BCE. So we can date the year when Bur-Sagalę held the office of limmu to 763 BCE, and then every other year in the Assyrian year name list can be precisely dated based on this. We can even work out the correspondence of months, since we know that Simanu matches up to June, and we know exactly how how long Assyrian months were. Thanks to dating Bur-Sagalę's year exactly, we can also date every other year in the Assyrian year name list based on it, which covers the years 910-649 BCE. Dates from documents outside of Assyria can be converted with confidence based on known correspondences between Assyrian events and events elsewhere. Figuring out exact dates for years before 910 BCE is a bit tricky, and we can often only convert dates from the 2nd and 3rd millennia BCE inexactly. For example, Eric Cline originally planned to name his book, which was discussed in this thread recently, 1186 BC, before changing his mind to 1177 BC, since in the 12th century BCE we can only figure out correspondences to a 5-10 year window of accuracy.
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Apr 16, 2024 02:49
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The problems with the Sinosphere system related to no ongoing count are also, to some degree, its solutions; it can be hard to square up the exact years of shorter reigns around disturbances or in exile, but you can still build a very accurate picture back to the beginning because you can always recenter around known events or an offhand "(Era) 1, year of the wood pig" that doesn't square you to a linear count per se but does tell you that it's five years (or more precisely, years mod 60 = 5) after your previous good reference of "(Era) 7, year of the metal goat" even if there were two pretenders between them. This was a known problem and a cycle a known solution; compare Bede's work linked and its use of indictions (a 15-year Roman cycle for lining things back up under the same circumstances.) And apart from Grand Fromage's example of direct Julian-Gregorian conversion and why Tom Clancy didn't write Red November, there are also pitfalls around what the first day of the year is; your Durer from "1484", if it happened to date from January, February, or March of 1484, would likely have been sketched in the months following December 1484--in the English-speaking tradition, we talk about the dates September 3rd-September 13th, 1752 "not existing", but the same law also did away with January 1st-March 24th, 1751 in England, Wales, and most colonies (but not in Scotland, where they had already occurred a year earlier.)
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Apr 16, 2024 02:59
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CrypticFox posted:For example, Eric Cline originally planned to name his book, which was discussed in this thread recently, 1186 BC, before changing his mind to 1177 BC, since in the 12th century BCE we can only figure out correspondences to a 5-10 year window of accuracy. Should've just called it ~1186 BC and called it a day
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Apr 16, 2024 03:04
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1177-ish
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Apr 16, 2024 03:10
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Grand Fromage posted:1177-ish AD, BC, ABY, Fourth Era, it’s all good
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Apr 16, 2024 03:13
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Scifi has taught me that we should be counting the year as “79 Atomic Era” by now.
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Apr 16, 2024 03:59
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79 Atomic Era would be a badass name
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Apr 16, 2024 04:13
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The Lone Badger posted:Scifi has taught me that we should be counting the year as “79 Atomic Era” by now. Apparently in geology they’re a fan of BP or Before Present. It’s not really standardized (and 74 After Present doesn’t make any sense) but they like setting the origin point at 1950 because that’s when atomic testing started changing the ambient radiation levels that get used for dating prehistoric rock samples and objects. There’s certainly worse time scales. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Before_Present
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Apr 16, 2024 04:13
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hey can someone show me the oldest original document with the year written like we do in modern day, but i dont want it modern it has to be old. no not that old, because they didnt date years RIGHT then, it has to be dated how we do RIGHT NOW, but it has to be THE SAME THING.
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Apr 16, 2024 04:33
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Kaal posted:Apparently in geology they’re a fan of BP or Before Present. It’s not really standardized (and 74 After Present doesn’t make any sense) but they like setting the origin point at 1950 because that’s when atomic testing started changing the ambient radiation levels that get used for dating prehistoric rock samples and objects. There’s certainly worse time scales. also known as 'before physics'
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Apr 16, 2024 04:37
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School of How posted:I have a general history question. Its not really roman history, but since this is the only history thread I can find, I'll post it here. Thanks for reminding myself of a shower thought I had: How far back do we have records of our current 7-day week cycle going, continuously? How recently did we have a controversy if it was, say, Tuesday or Wednesday today?
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Apr 16, 2024 07:39
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Groda posted:Thanks for reminding myself of a shower thought I had: Most recent controversy was in 2008.
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Apr 16, 2024 10:28
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Groda posted:Thanks for reminding myself of a shower thought I had: Probably the beginning of the 20th century when the last countries switched from Julian to Gregorian calendars?
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Apr 16, 2024 11:17
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Dopilsya posted:Most recent controversy was in 2008. This schism better be recorded in the annals for future generations as example of how our civilization destroyed itself.
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Apr 16, 2024 11:41
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mmkay posted:Probably the beginning of the 20th century when the last countries switched from Julian to Gregorian calendars? Did that affect the week?
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Apr 16, 2024 11:45
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Nenonen posted:This schism better be recorded in the annals for future generations as example of how our civilization destroyed itself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eECjjLNAOd4
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Apr 16, 2024 11:49
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Groda posted:Did that affect the week? Apparently for both Russia and Greece it didn't, so I'm changing my answer to countries using Julian calendar in February 1900.
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Apr 16, 2024 12:26
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mmkay posted:Apparently for both Russia and Greece it didn't, so I'm changing my answer to countries using Julian calendar in February 1900. That doesn't make any sense.
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Apr 16, 2024 12:31
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Yea, I'm dumb.
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Apr 16, 2024 12:36
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I’m reading Lendon’s Soldiers and Ghosts about antique warfare and he casually tosses off a reference to the lasting relevance of epic poetry leading Hellenistic Greeks to build in a pseudo-Cyclopean “Bronze Age revival” style. Which is hilarious I thought. Born in the wrong generation (in 250 BC). Too late to sack Troy, too early to sack Rome  https://www.jstor.org/stable/503176?read-now=1#page_scan_tab_contents Anyway I tracked the reference to some other references and found this paper which has a lot of pictures of the so called “Dragon Houses”. Pretty cool. they have a slightly different explanation than what I made up based on Lendon, they think Carians did it
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Apr 16, 2024 13:57
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CrypticFox posted:Several 7th century BCE copies of the Assyrian year name list record that in the year when Bur-Sagalę held the office of limmu, a total solar eclipse was observed in the month of Simanu. So I looked into this and came across this link: https://historiarex.com/e/en/77-bur-sagale-eclipse Its not so cut and dry. First off, the word they used to describe the eclipse translates to "twisted sun". I guess you could say thats an eclipse, but it could also be something else. Also eclipses occur too often to acurately match ancient documents. The link I posted even mentions another eclipse happening in 791 that could also be the eclipse mention in the text (assuming it's even referring to an eclipse in the first place). There was also multiple eclipses that happened in the 800s, 900s, 600s, 500s, BC also. This is why I think "written dates" are more accurate and interesting than "historian derived dates".
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Apr 17, 2024 02:07
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I have some questions about whether this website is a reliable scholarly source.
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Apr 17, 2024 02:44
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what the gently caress is this geocities rear end site lmao
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Apr 17, 2024 02:49
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Have you seen a solar eclipse either at or near totality? The 791 eclipse would have only been about 74% occlusion at Assur and also would have happened right around sunset on the Mediterranean coast, meaning the sun would have set over Mesopotamia. Frankly it's extremely unlikely it would have even been noticed. E: like actually peep this map. You tell me a Syracusan wrote about the 791 eclipse I'll believe you, but not an Assyrian 
PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Apr 17, 2024 |
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Apr 17, 2024 02:53
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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School of How posted:So I looked into this and came across this link: https://historiarex.com/e/en/77-bur-sagale-eclipse You're not the same guy who didn't think hieroglyphic translations were real are you?
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Apr 17, 2024 02:58
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School of How posted:
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Apr 17, 2024 03:06
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Cool Dad posted:You're not the same guy who didn't think hieroglyphic translations were real are you? shh, you'll startle him and he'll fly off
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Apr 17, 2024 03:08
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