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The other issue I'm having is that these relays make a very loud clicking sound when they switch on and off. I've never seen an animated neon sign that makes a clicking noise and if I have to listen to clicking all day long it will drive me insane. Can you buy quiet relays somewhere? Maybe I went down the wrong path with this project
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Sep 27, 2023 15:01
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Solid state is an option.
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Sep 27, 2023 15:11
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It would be wonderful if the Arduino and adjacent ecosystems were all plug-and-play, but for better or worse, there's usually research that has to be done and knowledge that has to be gained in order to do even the most basic of tasks if you're not super familiar with any of it. I don't know if this'll be helpful at this point, but Adafruit does have a guide for adding the ItsyBitsy libraries to the Arduino IDE. That should add support for your specific board and make it appear on the selection list. https://learn.adafruit.com/introducting-itsy-bitsy-32u4/arduino-ide-setup
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Sep 27, 2023 15:37
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Acid Reflux posted:It would be wonderful if the Arduino and adjacent ecosystems were all plug-and-play, but for better or worse, there's usually research that has to be done and knowledge that has to be gained in order to do even the most basic of tasks if you're not super familiar with any of it. This is part of my frustration. I followed this guide earlier since on the website it lists the board I'm using, but when I installed the package it doesn't appear in the boards list:   So I don't know if my board is hidden somewhere in this list or what is going on. I then did a search in the boards manager for ItsyBitsy which brought me to the Raspberry Pi RP2040 boards list, which has an ItsyBitsy listed but it's apparently not the right one.
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Sep 27, 2023 15:49
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You know what? I'm a loving idiot and installed ARDUINO AVR Boards and not ADAFRUIT AVR Boards, I'm going to install the right one now
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Sep 27, 2023 16:13
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Deadite posted:You know what? I'm a loving idiot and installed ARDUINO AVR Boards and not ADAFRUIT AVR Boards, I'm going to install the right one now It happens! LOL... I was just coming back to talk about that specific point after running through the steps, and the Itsy stuff came up on mine. You should be good to go once the actual Adafruit libraries are in there though. I don't even mean to come in here and sound like some kind of expert or anything, I'm a complete hack and don't even know how to write my own code for the most part. I've just been through a lot of these little hiccups during my own travels and know how frustrating it can be. 
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Sep 27, 2023 16:17
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You need to connect a GND between the relay board and the ItsyBitsy. Your optoisolators are floating. Looks great so far! Super good progress. Learning this kind of stuff is exactly this way!
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Sep 27, 2023 16:26
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:You need to connect a GND between the relay board and the ItsyBitsy. Your optoisolators are floating. Perfect, thank you very much. Once I connected the 12v power to the ItsyBitsy everything worked as expected. Now I just need to look into these solid state relays so I don't have to listen to this endless clicking This is a rat's nest of bad wiring but I'm using scraps to test https://i.imgur.com/vnB7L7a.mp4
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Sep 27, 2023 16:44
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Does anyone have a link to a solid state relay they'd recommend? I'm trying to find one but I'm out of my depth and I don't understand a lot of the acronyms out there. I have a 12v power source and the outputs need to be 12v too. Would this work for what I want? https://www.amazon.com/NOYITO-High-...111&sr=8-3&th=1 It looks like it would but one of the reviews says it doesn't work for 12v loads
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Sep 27, 2023 17:59
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Deadite posted:Does anyone have a link to a solid state relay they'd recommend? I'm trying to find one but I'm out of my depth and I don't understand a lot of the acronyms out there. I have a 12v power source and the outputs need to be 12v too. How much current do your LEDs draw?
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Sep 27, 2023 18:06
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sharkytm posted:How much current do your LEDs draw? I'm not sure, these are the LEDs I use: https://www.amazon.com/iNextStation-SMD2835-Waterproof-Flexible-Outdoors/dp/B07V37X7SY?th=1 and I use 12v/2A power supplies with them
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Sep 27, 2023 18:15
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Deadite posted:I'm not sure, these are the LEDs I use: https://www.amazon.com/iNextStation-SMD2835-Waterproof-Flexible-Outdoors/dp/B07V37X7SY?th=1 According to the specs, they draw 30w, which would be 2.5A. That's not going to work with your power supplies or that SSR, which is rated at 2A/channel. You should probably run them on a larger supply, and use a meter to figure out their actual draw. You don't want to run the SSR at it's max capacity, certainly not dodgy Chinese ones. You also don't want to overdraw the power supplies.
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Sep 27, 2023 18:18
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Now, the other option, if you wanted to go that way, would be DMX. I doubt you want to - relays are simple and straightforward, and if you want it to blink and blink only, that's the simplest solution for a beginner. But I feel like talking about this because it's in my wheelhouse of work, so I'm gonna. feel free to ignore. Maybe you'll really get into this and want to do more later! I do a lot of custom lighting controllers with Arduino, and use DMX for what I need. To try and keep this brief: DMX is a command protocol usually used for stage lighting control. Basically, you set up a secondary serial port and use a library to send data strings out that tell a device what you want. So, for example, you might chose to fade in/out on a single-color (or white) led tape, or change color over time on an RGB tape, or blink it, or whatever. Stage shows use LOTS of dmx data for up to hundreds of fixtures that change color, focus, and even move...and they use $$$$$$ hardware/software packages to do it. I use it with lil arduinos for interactive kids exhibits and theatrical environments. For this, you'd have to change your hardware a bit. Rather than a relay, you'd use a DMX-based LED controller, like this: [url] https://www.amazon.com/Huaxi-Digital-Display-Controller-DC12-24V/dp/B07Q1ZJZN9/[/url] You'd also need a DMX transciever. To simplify, it basically takes the 0V Low/5V High serial signal and converts it to a different format. Usually the cheapy amazon shield-style ones are made for an Uno, but you can get ones like this: https://www.amazon.com/Max485-Chip-RS-485-Module-Raspberry/dp/B00NIOLNAG/ that you can just cable it up and have it as a seperate bit For code, I usually used the DMXSerial library: https://github.com/mathertel/DMXSerial It works great, but you're limited to what the library supports, which is 8 bit controllers. It also is really preferable to use a controller that has two hardware serial ports such as the Leonardo (32u4) or the Mega2560 (what I use because again, it's for work, and the extra 20 bucks or whatever is nothing at the budgets I'm working on). There are libraries that let you use software serial ports, but I prefer hardware serial personally. There's also at least one out there for 32 bit boards - I've used it a couple times as well and had no issues.
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Sep 27, 2023 18:35
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That's interesting, I don't know much about lighting controls and thought this whole thing would be much simpler than it is turning out to be. Do the DMX LED controls come in smaller versions? I make neon-style LED signs and I'm trying to animate my first sign, but if this works it opens up a whole new area for me. For this first one I just need the three sections to blink in sequence to look like the teeth of a chainsaw are moving: 
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Sep 27, 2023 18:54
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Deadite posted:That's interesting, I don't know much about lighting controls and thought this whole thing would be much simpler than it is turning out to be. Do the DMX LED controls come in smaller versions? If that's going to be something that runs hours on end all the time I strongly encourage you to use either socketed or solid state relays, those cycle counts add up fast and you don't want to have to bust out the soldering gun every time you need to replace them
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Sep 27, 2023 19:20
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Yeah that's the idea. I know that animated neon signs are something that have existed for decades but I'm not sure what the mechanism is behind it. This is a solved problem but I'm completely lost on how to find that solution. I just assumed there was an off the shelf thing I could buy and it would work
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Sep 27, 2023 19:22
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Deadite posted:That's interesting, I don't know much about lighting controls and thought this whole thing would be much simpler than it is turning out to be. Do the DMX LED controls come in smaller versions? That's rad and I want that exact design for a friend, please
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Sep 27, 2023 19:33
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Deadite posted:That's interesting, I don't know much about lighting controls and thought this whole thing would be much simpler than it is turning out to be. Do the DMX LED controls come in smaller versions? shame on an IGA posted:If that's going to be something that runs hours on end all the time I strongly encourage you to use either socketed or solid state relays, those cycle counts add up fast and you don't want to have to bust out the soldering gun every time you need to replace them There are inexpensive ICs that are purpose made for this application. I use the TI TLC591x chips a lot. They provide MOSFET current sinks so you can run the LEDs at a different voltage than the logic, which you would need for most signs. Probably the highest-visibility project I used these for was an outdoor sports scoreboard, which used 12V 5120 LED strips to make 7-segment digits. Because the TI chip is a cascading shift register, I had one per segment, and wired a bunch up in series. Your chainsaw (which looks cool, BTW) would only use 3 of the 8 driver pins on the chip. I only use microcontrollers, but I bet you could wire up a circuit that just loops this animation forever and ever. I bet a 555 chip is involved somehow: they always are. You're probably looking at under $10 in parts. cruft fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Sep 27, 2023 |
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Sep 27, 2023 19:47
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Is there a reason for fussing with relays over just using addressable LEDs here? Other than for funsies?
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Sep 27, 2023 20:49
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Sockser posted:Is there a reason for fussing with relays over just using addressable LEDs here? Other than for funsies? Because I have no idea what I'm doing. Like zero knowledge. All I know is that relays are used to turn power on and off so I thought that would work. I don't know what an addressable LED is but I'm limited to what I can get that is sold in LED neon flex. The post above yours might has well been written in Greek to me, I have absolutely no idea what that is saying
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Sep 27, 2023 20:54
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Deadite posted:Because I have no idea what I'm doing. Like zero knowledge. All I know is that relays are used to turn power on and off so I thought that would work. I don't know what an addressable LED is but I'm limited to what I can get that is sold in LED neon flex. A long strip of LEDs that you can, with a little programming, say "set LED #10 to green and LED #45 to red" As far as LED neon flex-- https://www.amazon.com/Aclorol-Addressable-Flexible-Waterproof-Advertising/dp/B08N9X4PC9?th=1 I bought a spool of this a while ago for a project but haven't had the chance to play with it yet It's somehow only 18LEDs/m which is pretty crazy low if it actually diffuses that well So you could, in theory, cut off several small lengths, separate them, wire them together, and just in your code say "light pixel one, wait, light pixel two, wait," And ditch that entire relay board
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Sep 27, 2023 20:58
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Sockser posted:Is there a reason for fussing with relays over just using addressable LEDs here? Other than for funsies? I wouldn't personally recommend the addressable LEDs for something like this: they're not going to get bright enough for this application, I think. I mean, give 'em a try if you're inclined, OP. I use them for all kinds of stuff and they're super easy. But if you already have components you like working with, I recommend sticking with those, and finding stuff that can work with them. Like the TI chip I mentioned  Sockser posted:And ditch that entire relay board Whatever you decide, I also hope you ditch the relay board. e: on the other hand, maybe whoever you're making this for will enjoy the clicky noises of those relays. They won't last anywhere near as long as solid state stuff, but they're cool as heck, and maybe that's what you're going for! Plus, you already have a working circuit, you just need a beefier power supply. I just completed a project that used a bigger version of that relay board you're using. I used the relays exclusively for generating sound: every relay connects an open circuit (there's nothing hooked into them). It's definitely a vibe! cruft fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Sep 27, 2023 |
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Sep 27, 2023 21:41
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Relays seem like a smart choice here, especially if you're doing multiple designs, working with strips of LED is probably a lot easier. For a single one-off project individual LEDs might make more sense Just eyeballing it, looks like 85% of the LED are always on, so you probably only need like, in this specific example, maybe 1A of switching capacity to drive those ~8 little - - - - - - - - dashes, since the rest can just draw 12v direct from the power supply. If you had something like a phantom of the opera smiling/frowning face where the whole thing swaps LED you might need more. You'll still need to measure to know for sure. You can get a clamping amp meter for like $15 these days, or a regular volt meter for under $10
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Sep 27, 2023 21:55
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Deadite posted:That's interesting, I don't know much about lighting controls and thought this whole thing would be much simpler than it is turning out to be. Do the DMX LED controls come in smaller versions? There are smaller decoders - but generally they run at about that size or smaller for the type of application you're doing here. I used to be able to find some no-brand ones that were about the size of a deck of cards (but you'd still need a power supply) but I can never find them anymore. The good thing is you could make your controller with the DMX mabober sit a ways a way and run a single 4-conductor wire to take your outputs over to your lights, potentially. Sockser posted:Is there a reason for fussing with relays over just using addressable LEDs here? Other than for funsies? Honestly, given some of the other feedback here, I'm surprised I didn't think of this. There are some pros and cons on addressable stuff. I think brightness would probably be fine unless you're in broad daylight. Pros: 3 wires, you're done, NBD. No extra hardware to fuss with like tranceivers etc. easy to change your color/animation once you get going Cons: Pixel stuff - especially in the neon variety - tends to have large 'segments' for cutting. Most neon types, its basically sections of LEDs in 3-4 inch cuttable segments you can individually control. Very nice, but it means if you want to do a small detail, you're limited by the cut length of those segments - you can't make them any shorter than they are. Typically "Neon" types are 12V or 24V, and it's for electrical efficeny that they have to do such large segments. There are some out there that are 5V and have much smaller cut segments (I've linked one below) but that can be very impractical or annoying when you have a really large project. Pumping 10-20 amps of 5V power feels kinda stupid, but I've done it. Pixel tapes really have gotten popular in the last few years. I've been working with them for awhile as well, and the one big problem 90% of them have is they are cheap as gently caress and the copper in them is too thin, and makes them a bit fragile. For some people, that may not matter, but it drove me nuts trying to solder an 18AWG power lead only to have it rip the pad off on the slightest amount of force. If you stick with 20-22AWG, it's usually not as big of a problem. I was recommended this brand awhile back, and they make quality stuff, but it'll cost you more: https://www.mossled.com/collections/neon-flexled-1/products/slimneon-flexled (BTW - as far as LED tapes go - EnvironmentalLights is my recommendation to most people for quality prosumer/contractor grade stuff. Not my favorite, but one of the more publicly accessible vendors that sells at some minimum threshold of quality. A lot of variety too. They used to list their prices on their site, but you need to setup a free account to see it now) I think there's also folks out there who do these custom neon signs where the tape and the silicone diffuser are like two separate parts - they put the LEDs into grooves that are a tight fit for the silicone and then jam the diffuser into get that dotless appearance. I've seen like ads for them on tiktok or something awhile ago, but I've never really learned what that process is about.
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Sep 28, 2023 01:04
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I'd just use MOSFETs to switch those LEDs personally, given the currents and voltages are low, and the control logic and LEDs are already sharing a power supply
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Sep 28, 2023 02:04
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Splode posted:I'd just use MOSFETs to switch those LEDs personally, given the currents and voltages are low, and the control logic and LEDs are already sharing a power supply Is that something I can buy and use or is it a concept for something I need to study and apply? Because my posts in this thread show that I’m not great with electronics If I can just order something and plug in my wires then that might work for my skill level
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Sep 28, 2023 02:17
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One of these for every channel https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005881449865.html
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Sep 28, 2023 03:02
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Deadite posted:Is that something I can buy and use or is it a concept for something I need to study and apply? Because my posts in this thread show that I’m not great with electronics I linked an example of one in an earlier post. If you'd like, I'd be happy to throw together a wiring diagram and a little Arduino program for you to do your animation.
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Sep 28, 2023 03:21
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cruft posted:I linked an example of one in an earlier post. Please. Those TI chips are pretty neat. ante posted:One of these for every channel These are drop-in replacements for the relay board, though.
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Sep 28, 2023 04:26
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Deadite posted:Because I have no idea what I'm doing. Like zero knowledge. All I know is that relays are used to turn power on and off so I thought that would work. You have a tiny bit of knowledge now! Also, relays are used to turn things on and off, and they did work! Plan perfectly excecuted.
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Sep 28, 2023 04:28
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Deadite posted:Is that something I can buy and use or is it a concept for something I need to study and apply? Because my posts in this thread show that I’m not great with electronics MOSFETs 101: Back in 1958, Mohamed Mosfet was working at Bell Labs and got some metal oxides in his semiconductors, and it turned out they taste great together and make some neat field effect transistors. The MOSFET was born. Here's a picture of a modern chonky through hole one  For the rest of this, I'm only going to talk about N-channel ones, and only using them as a switch.  They have three leads: - Gate: This is what you change to switch it on/off (connect to microcontroller pin) - Drain: This is the thing that switches - Source: Connect this to ground It does this: - When the voltage at the gate is high enough, it is turns on. Current can go from drain to source like they were connected - When the voltage at the gate is low enough, it is turns off. Current can't go from drain to source. - In between, linear analog stuff happens that is for MOSFETs 102. Very little current will go into the gate and the voltage where it is all the way on can be much lower than the drain voltage, so you can drive it from a microcontroller pin. e.g. it is easy to find parts where: - putting 3.3V on the gate will only take microamps of current from the arduino and let amps go drain->source - putting 0V on the gate with drain at 24V will only leak nanoamps drain->source Other big differences from a magnetic relay: - The drain has to be at a positive voltage. It won't work right if you do something like put -12V on the drain - If you are switching off something inductive like a solenoid or a motor, you will need something to protect it from the big voltages that creates. This is true of a magnetic relay too, they will just take longer to be destroyed by that - They don't make noise - They don't get hot while fully on - They can switch much much faster - They don't wear out Your typical solid state relay is internally typically just two MOSFETs, one for each direction, with the gates hooked up to an optoisolator.  If you don't need bidirectional current or the isolation, the extra bits aren't actually doing anything for you
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Sep 28, 2023 06:05
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You do have to be careful about the threshold voltage though. A lot of the beefy mosfets have a higher threshold voltage.
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Sep 28, 2023 06:58
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I appreciate all of the responses and time everyone is putting in to help me, but it's still over my head. Pretend I'm 90 years old and changing the time on my VCR was too technologically advanced for me. What I would love is for someone to link me to a product, tell me how many to buy, and then tell me what I need to do with it once I have it. ante posted:One of these for every channel So like this, if I buy three of these what do I do with them? Just put the power wires into one end and the wires that connect to the LEDs in the other? Do I need to split the power line in three somehow? Do I still need to use an arduino with these?
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Sep 28, 2023 13:45
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Foxfire_ posted:MOSFETs 101: 
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Sep 28, 2023 13:53
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The diagram is getting a bit strained, but it's basically the same concept. Each of those boards is a replacement for a relay. However, instead of a relay having a normally open and normally closed contact, this one only has a normally open contact that can ONLY switch + to LOAD. So your pin names have changed slightly. There's no more "COM" because COMmon is now directly connected to DC+. DC- is now "-". "GND" is the reference to the microcontroller. If you're powering the micro with USB, do not connect "DC+" to "BAT", but do connect "GND" on the FET board to "GND" on the micro. "IN" is now called "PWM". That's it.
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Sep 28, 2023 14:01
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:The diagram is getting a bit strained, but it's basically the same concept. Each of those boards is a replacement for a relay. However, instead of a relay having a normally open and normally closed contact, this one only has a normally open contact that can ONLY switch + to LOAD. This is simpler and cheaper than what I was going to throw together. I'll still work something up so you can compare, but if you only want three segments and have a lot of room, you should go with this. Those boards are 50¢ each.
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Sep 28, 2023 14:09
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:The diagram is getting a bit strained, but it's basically the same concept. Each of those boards is a replacement for a relay. However, instead of a relay having a normally open and normally closed contact, this one only has a normally open contact that can ONLY switch + to LOAD. Thank you, that makes it clear how this works. Do you know what the differences between the models listed on the AliExpress page are? Does it matter which one I use? And does anywhere else sell these? The best shipping date they can give me is October 31st, and I was hoping this sign would be ready for Halloween
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Sep 28, 2023 14:10
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This is sort of what I was thinking. There will be a few more wires, and it would use a different chip, but this is basically it. This same setup would allow you to go up to 12 animation steps if you want (once you swap in the right chip). You will also want a high-voltage potato.
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Sep 28, 2023 14:30
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Deadite posted:And does anywhere else sell these? The best shipping date they can give me is October 31st, and I was hoping this sign would be ready for Halloween If you're in Canada, PiShop carries various FET switchboards, e.g. https://pishop.ca/products/mosfetti In the US, maybe Sparkfun?
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Sep 28, 2023 14:39
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:The diagram is getting a bit strained, but it's basically the same concept. Each of those boards is a replacement for a relay. However, instead of a relay having a normally open and normally closed contact, this one only has a normally open contact that can ONLY switch + to LOAD. You'll want to switch the negatives though, not the positives. It won't work properly, otherwise
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Sep 28, 2023 16:47
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