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The time skip into an absolutely lovely future in 3.0 would be a fairly logical setup for a time loop, especially given 3.0's English title, which was apparently applied at Anno's direction. If there is one, though, I expect the loop to be self contained within Rebuild and involve some sort of sacrifice to undo the events of the ending of 2.0 and the aftermath. Evangelion is all about throwing that sort of storytelling out the window, though, so I expect an hour and a half of hands, gore and tits animeing so hard it loses all coherence and sparks another decade of reductive overanalysis and arguments over whether it sucks or not.
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Apr 22, 2013 18:25
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People focus too much on Anno's intended meaning for Eva, which is self examination through an author insert character, meant to lead a specific type of audience member to a personal revelation he feels they need. That ignores all of the other subtext in the series, such as:
There's also the problem of cultural expectations. For the Western viewer it's obvious that Shinji is ultimately not responsible for anything that happens to him or around him, and it's all the fault of the amazingly malicious, incompetent and predatory adults in his life, including his monster of a father and his batshit crazy mother. However, Shinji absolutely cannot deny his responsibility, or he will be seen as a highly unsympathetic character, and anything that smacks of shirking "his" responsibilities will be seen as an equally unsympathetic viewpoint. There's also the mystical, sacred journey aspect of the narrative to consider. Shinji is a Holy Fool, progressing through a series of challenges or labors before he meets the Abyss, which is Instrumentality. Kaworu is the guardian of the Abyss; he offers Shinji a chance to turn back and remain stagnant- his "unconditional love" is another fantasy, given freely for nothing in return but ultimately hollow. Tuxedo Catfish posted:Rebuild is another story, because trying to save Rei is entirely his own decision, among other small things leading up to it. But if they try to portray that as "selfish" and wrong then gently caress 'em, I'll send Anno polite and articulate hatemail myself, and stick Evangelion next to Gurren Lagann on the list of Gainax shows I vehemently disagree with. Again, it doesn't matter. Shinji could not defend himself, even though he could provide a perfectly valid defense (namely, you people put me in a machine you don't understand, gave me only the most rudimentary training, never warned me about the potential consequences of my actions, and encouraged me to do what I was doing) The "just following orders" argument doesn't apply here, since he had no knowledge of the consequences of his action. It's like putting a man in a box with a button and giving him a dollar to press it and then blaming him after he learns pushing the button killed a baby every time. You would be to blame in that instance, as Shinji's superiors are to blame for what he did at the end of 2.0- but he can't offer that defense or be seen as a reprehensible shirker of responsibility.
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Apr 25, 2013 04:51
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Mari, or someone who looks just like her, is in the photo that Fuyutsuki gives Shinji. Then later she tells Rei something along the lines of "You know, your original was a lot easier to get along with." It's more likely that the -nami girls are all clones.
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Apr 27, 2013 20:01
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Feranon posted:I figured the red eyes/silver hair thing is a result of Kaworu and Rei being angels in a human vessel, though. Asuka and Mari could just be plain ol' humans who were created artificially for the purpose of Eva piloting. It's interesting that they went out of their way to change Asuka's name so that all the girls' names in -nami. There's also the fact that Asuka was selected to test pilot Unit 03 instead of Toji, and no mention of the Marduk Institute or Shinji's class being potential pilots in Rebuild, iirc. These are small departures from the original show, but if they didn't mean anything why would they bother making those changes in the first place? I think there's something definitely suspect about Mari and Asuka, even if they aren't straight-up clones An all-clone pilot corps would explain why Shinji was never trained to pilot. Also, the three girl's names don't just share the -nami bit, the Shikinami and Makinami were warships of the same class as the Ayanami. That could be a reference to all three being clones, or it could be a reference to all three pilots' mothers working for Nerv- Yui's maiden name is Ayanami in rebuild.
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Apr 27, 2013 22:11
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Mostly because Mari outright talks about knowing Rei's "original" later in the film. That could easily be a reference to an earlier clone. I doubt there will be a huge twist related to Mari because she's not that important of a character- she's mostly eye candy and a foil for Asuka.
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Apr 28, 2013 01:15
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Nate RFB posted:Given how 3.33 was it would not surprise me in the least if it was never brought up again. The question to ask is, "Is this relevant to Shinji's personal journey?" and if the answer is no, it probably won't get much focus. A 26 episode television series has room to develop a cast of secondary characters, a series of four ninety minute films doesn't, at least not in as much detail. So far these films have been very economical, cutting out a lot of material that isn't relevant to Shinji's journey. Even the bit where Kaji tells him about Misato is for his benefit, and to establish her motivations in the cheering scene at the end of 2.22- she's not cheering Shinji on, she's living vicarious through him. Kaji has no relationship to Asuka because Asuka's psychological issues from the series aren't present. The puppet she keeps is there as a signal to the audience that her "origin story" as such doesn't apply her; it's literally the opposite of how that other character behaves.
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Apr 28, 2013 01:36
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tooooooo bad posted:Stitched image from 3.33. Spoilers obv. Those marks on the Moon look like the ones on the Black Moon in EOE, when it started weeping blood.
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Apr 29, 2013 20:19
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Rebuild is based on the Jo-ha-kyū structure. It's even in the Japanese titles. Specifically, the ha movement (3.0) details transgressions.
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Apr 29, 2013 20:35
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You wouldn't be you anymore. It's functionally no different from death. It seems to be a common thread in anime (Ghost in the Shell touches on it as well) but to some people who put a high value on individualism it's an appalling idea. It's also predicated on the idea that there is only suffering and pain in life, and that whatever positives come out of an individual existence are outweighed to the point that they're not worth it. Now, to have a hivemind where there is no separation between individuals and no barriers or hunger or fear or lust is an interesting idea, but Evangelion specifically does not present that as an option. If Shinji chooses Instrumentality, all individual humans will die and a new entity will emerge in their place, including himself.
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Apr 29, 2013 21:08
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0 rows returned posted:It's a two-way street. It's the Internet, but in your head and you can't turn it off.
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Apr 29, 2013 22:04
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Anyways, if you want to consider the series minus EoE a complete text and argue about that instead of the whole franchise, that's fine. If that were the case I would probably say that Evangelion doesn't mesh very well with Kabbalistic principles at all, because Shinji's journey consists of shedding attachments and becoming more and more miserable until an introspective, arguably mystical experience shows him the value of himself and others, with the final scene transforming people who hurt and confused him into well-wishing friends. If you pare away everything that makes them unique, this is pretty much the core of all occult systems. The initiate undergoes a series of increasingly difficult and harrowing trials followed by a temptation that must be resisted (in the series being Kaworu's unconditional, but ultimately hollow and inhuman love) before plunging into an abyss of ego destruction. The test is the recreation of the self and emergence from the other side. Eva adopts the trappings of Western Judeo-Christian mystical systems, but also subtly identifies them with more Eastern motifs through the visuals, especially in EoE. From that perspective, Instrumentality isn't the end goal of the psuedo-mystical ritual enacted in the series, but the emergence from the other side. Hence "death and rebirth" and "the fate of destruction is also the joy of rebirth". You're not going to find a direct correlation because they found things like the Tree of Life and whatnot in a book, but they clearly read the book and took some motifs and ideas from it, rather than just using the images as completely meaningless window dressing as is commonly argued.
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May 1, 2013 05:19
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The lesson of the aborted third impact in 2.22 is that if you're going to become a god, you don't bitch out halfway through.
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May 4, 2013 02:17
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The Adam and Lilith stuff totally undermines the presentation in the series, where it's all literally magic being manipulated (poorly) by science. Evangelion is partly a story about the arrogance of man trying to master forces beyond human understanding.
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May 6, 2013 19:36
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Fifteen years of arguing red vs. blue and discovering that the series has a message about depression and self worth.
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May 17, 2013 03:33
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The "try smiling" bit from Episode 6 was also redone.
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May 19, 2013 18:25
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Wank posted:I finally finished the original TV series (inc. director cuts) and EoE. I actually found EoE more confusing the original 25/26. Though Episode 26 must be the most insane episode of TV ever. The answer to your question is twofold. In terms of Anno's intent, it's not a critique of Japanese culture as such; Anno actually voices some pretty conservative opinions in interviews and has said at length that he considers modern Japan a society of children that don't live up to their forebears. He cites adult men reading comic books in public as an example of this. This is consistent with the text. The adults are all immature in some way, and through their neglect pass on this trait of immaturity-into-adulthood to the children. If we focus on the text itself, it's a broader attack on the stifling repressiveness of Japan's other-oriented, face saving culture. Shinji is pretty brutally forced to own up to responsibilities that aren't his and carry burdens that don't belong to him- most of the stuff that happens in the series that he blames himself for or reacts badly to are the fault of the adults, but he can't express or acknowledge that. This is a major reason for the values dissonance that causes so much confusion in Western viewers watching 3.33. Shinji can't defend himself for the end of 2.22 even though it clearly isn't his fault, because that would be denying responsibility and that is heavily frowned upon; for him to expect his superiors to take the blame for his actions while he was piloting would make him highly unsympathetic. Eva is also sharply critical of gender roles. Rei is an attack on the meek, submissive woman, while Asuka's failed relationship with Shinji demonstrates how stifling social rules of courting and interaction between men and women are. Though she's usually thought of or spoken of as a very butch character, Asuka projects a mask of hyperfemininity and is obsessed with becoming an adult woman (demonstrated by her emulation of Misato in clothing in behavior, and more obviously in bits such as her attempt to borrow perfume) and with the ideals of romance represented in fiction (in scenes where she's watching television, it's usually soap operas) and one of her several frustrations with him is that he won't assume an aggressive stance towards her despite all her signals, when acting as the aggressor in their interactions would obviously suit her. Continuing on gender roles, there's also a sharp criticism of the way that Japanese society and society in general treats adult women- Misato's "Christmas Cake" status and Ritsuko's hosed up sexuality are the means by which this criticism is shaped and delivered. Ultimately, even capable women who are intelligent or effective administrators are valued based on their sexuality, and internalization of this leads to destructive, self defeating or risk taking behavior. Misato's characterization is on point here- she cultivates the appearance of a wild party girl, but clearly only ever had sexual relations with one man in her entire life and spends most of her time at home in a drunken stupor. She's so internalized society's expecation that no one actually has to criticize her, she turns herself into something she actually despises. Ritsuko, on the other hand, is so ruled by trying to become cold and clinical and eliminate her sexuality that it rules her, as symbolized by her ordinary attire- she wears a labcoat over a miniskirt and fishnets, the image of the clinical scientist inadequately covering powerful sexual urges. To go even broader, Evangelion is about the Cold War and the failure of the postwar generation to create a better world for their children. Yui specifically embodies this, as she pursues her own selfish designs, superficially promising a better world for future generations while working exclusively towards her own bizarre, self-defeating goals. Nerv as a whole represents this issue. The Evangelions are a metaphor for the new powers of the postwar world- nuclear power of course, but also communications technology and mass media. In order to procure their goal of a "better" future (which is actually a global murder-suicide) the adults build technological monsters that destroy the environment (the dead seas) and literally eat children. The Evangelions are gargantuan techno-monster-gods, Gisburg's Moloch given physical form. At the root of all of these problems is a failure to communicate and connect. There's actually a pretty serious disconnect between the deeper meanings of the series and the surface reading of Shinji overcoming depression. The reason EoE is so bleak in its final moments (the protagonists wake up on the shores of a literal sea of blood) is because the individual epiphanies found in depression are a) often manic episodes that don't lead to any personal growth, change, or escape from depression and b) don't rate a flying gently caress in the long run, since the world really does suck. To become truly self aware, to wake up from the comforting fantasy of Instrumentality into the harsh world is to realize that we're already in hell and no one is doing anything about it. The world is depressing, brutal, bleak, and temporary. Yui gives us some speech about the possibility of happiness and stars and poo poo but what the gently caress does that even mean? It's a platitude delivered by a lunatic committing suicide to escape the responsibility of caring for her child. It ends up balancing bleakness with the will to exist, raising a question but not answering it- "Now that the Cold War is over and we are in the end of history, what do we do with all that we've created, these dangerous technologies that are out of control and generation of children raised by a generation of children-as-adults, doomed to a strip-mined world that's been run into the ground by generations waiting for the bomb to drop? Where do we go from here?" I don't know, but I feel sick.
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May 23, 2013 07:23
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The masturbation scene has application to merchandise and jerking off to anime characters generally but it's more broadly critical of all media's constant reinforcement of the idea that the female body belongs to men and it's somehow healthy, even desirable or affectionate, for a boy or man to take a look at a naked girl, without her knowledge, if circumstances permit. It's a frequent subject of comedy worldwide and common in anime fanservice. The message is simultaneously that women's bodies are men's right and their defense of their selves is a game or test, and that women should be on guard at all times because their bodies are a possession and they have a duty to protect it (but not for themselves, but for their rightful owner, a man). What the scene does is link the "cute" or "funny" part, the viewing of the naked body without permission, and links it to the grossness of the physical act. The point of seeing the girl naked is to jerk off to her, but virtually all media that employ the trope either ignore that or replace it with passing out or turning red or doing something funny. It's not cute or affectionate, it's a violation. The larger theme that it plays into is the media/cultural meme that female characters, and women in the real world, exist solely as prizes for men, and the most important thing about them is whether they have sex with the main character or not, and if not, why? In this way it warps around to being a critique of the audience for shipping the characters instead of paying any attention at all to Asuka's nuanced and complex psychological problems. It's a direct attack on how the audience perceives the characters, and the boldness in actually showing him masturbate hammers home the point. Also, hands in Evangelion represent the self or the soul, and by violating her this way, Shinji has soiled or stained his soul, as suggested by the lingering shot of his hand coated in semen. The point of the scene then isn't "Jerking off to anime girls is wrong" it's "Shinji doesn't care about her, and neither do you. Also jerking off to anime girls is wrong."
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May 24, 2013 03:38
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Shinji's hands twitch when he's stressed or under pressure, and are stained with Rei's blood and later Misato's during moments of indecision, which spurs him to action. Gendo wears gloves that hide a raw wound. Unit One's hand is damaged in several of the fights during key moments in a way generally tied to Shinji's situation or feelings during the fight. In both of the instances where it goes berserk and defeats an angel on its own, its left hand is damaged first. Asuka's hand is split immediately before she dies, Rei's hand falls off, then regrows when she defies Gendo. The last action anyone takes other than speaking is Asuka touching Shinji with her wounded hand.
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May 24, 2013 04:25
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Spiritus Nox posted:Hm. I don't know about the soul, but those all make enough sense as tying the hands to the self. I'd noticed the HANDS motif before, of course, just hadn't put it into words that way. When Maya turns into LCL we see her hand flying across the computer screen, displaying the words that Ritsuko typed.
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May 24, 2013 21:24
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There's short bits in the TV ending that suggest that the background story- the invasion of Nerv, the MPE battle, etc. were planned, but EoE reflects a variation on Shinji's story, specifically. "Concurrency" is a pointless debate and that way lies debates over the precise mechanics of the shows metaphysics and arguments over made up fanon that's based on easter eggs in a dating sim. Personally, I loathe the TV ending, as it has so little to say visually, whereas EoE is a feast for the eyes. There's meaning hidden in every frame, and all of the key scenes are intertwined with each other through visual motifs and allusions. The TV ending is also less mature and more pat. It reflects the mindset of someone who's in that manic "I've solved philosophy and I know how to fix my depression now!" post epiphany high before the struggle to actualize the epiphany sets in. EoE is more realistic, and doesn't abandon all of the other themes that the series sets up.
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May 26, 2013 21:43
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Rebuild is speculated to be following a particular structure from Japanese theater, Jo-ha-kyu: He described the first act as "Love"; the play opens auspiciously, using gentle themes and pleasant music to draw in the attention of the audience. The second act is described as "Warriors and Battles" (shura). Though it need not contain actual battle, it is generally typified by heightened tempo and intensity of plot. The third act, the climax of the entire play, is typified by pathos and tragedy. The plot achieves its dramatic climax. Takemoto describes the fourth act as a michiyuki (journey), which eases out of the intense drama of the climactic act, and often consists primarily of song and dance rather than dialogue and plot. The fifth act, then, is a rapid conclusion. All loose ends are tied up, and the play returns to an auspicious setting. If that's the case, then yes, there will be a sudden resolution, though I doubt we're ever going to Evangelion media produced by Anno himself that depicts Shinji in a romantic relationship with anyone. The way I see it 1.0 was a prettified version of the original six episodes with a few changes that hint at what's to come (The Eva doesn't shield Shinji from the falling lights, despite our attention being drawn to them, Misato knows about Lilith -if it is Lilith- and shows Shinji, etc). 2.0-3.0-4.0 will form a trilogy that branches off from the original in significant ways, with the trilogy structure. 2.0 sets the stage (demonstrating the differences from the setting we're accustomed to) and establishes the main conflict, 3.0 develops it and brings the protagonist to his lowest point, and 4.0 will be the climax and denoument. Rebuild is much more heavily rooted in the conflict between Shinji and Gendo (hence the change in last names- Yui is no longer the "anchor", Gendo is, everything centers on him, and depending on how it's written Ikari can mean both "anger" and "anchor"- so I would expect some kind of direct confrontation between them, which never really happens in the television show; they sort of float apart and never really interact in the ending. The antagonism between father and son is treated as one of the many roots of Shinji's depression within the show, but it's the main driver of everything going on here. I haven't watched 3.0 yet, but the mere fact that it incorporates so much EoE imagery indicates an intent to move past EoE and develop an ending that stands apart from the bleak and contradictory statement of One More Final. The ending of Rebuild may expand on certain elements from the show that were dropped in the hasty ending it received, and 3.0 smacks as a way of setting up an addition to EoE without making an updated, prettier copy of it ala 1.0
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May 27, 2013 23:28
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The dummy plugs are clones of Rei. The rejection makes her/it feel pain somehow, probably. I should note that this is the clearly established origin of the dummy system in the television series (the dummy plugs in the MPEs are Kaworu-based) but I'm just assuming it's the same in Rebuild since there's nothing to call it into question.
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Jun 1, 2013 04:59
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Terminal Entropy posted:Isn't moe, still not sure what that is entirely, The moe that can be squeed is not the true moe. Rei didn't originate the submissive stoic wounded carebait archetype, but she made sure a shitload of them that followed had blue hair and pale skin.
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Jun 5, 2013 01:22
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My God. They shaved the Evangelion. What sorcery is this?
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Jun 12, 2013 00:58
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Funimation just announced they've acquired the rights, but no date has been given. It'll be a while, as they have to do all the voice work and depending on the agreement a limited theatrical run first.
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Jun 12, 2013 08:06
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The Vitruvian Man is an important visual motif in 3.0- it also appears in the bit where Yui is lowered towards the core. The imagery there also captures a solar eclipse, linking her with the moon, a halo, and angelic wings.
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Jun 14, 2013 21:09
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Shazaminator posted:It should end with a "next episode" preview made from footage from the first episode of the tv series. Instead of a trailer it should just be five minutes of Kaworu's head exploding, set to the Anvil Chorus.
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Jun 23, 2013 17:59
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It feels like fanfiction because it starts off as a faithful adaptation of episodes 1-6 and then goes off into pandering la-la land and veers off again into a depressing post-apocalyptic miasma that provides an excuse to rewrite EoE, and fiction writers have already exceeded the word count of the Lord of the Rings, the Bible, the Encyclopedia Britannica, and the tax code doing that very thing, right down to using episode 6 as the jumping off point for the changes. Between that and Mari, I seriously wonder if it's done on purpose.
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Jun 28, 2013 19:35
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It has a lot of style. I'm hesistant to really explore its themes until I see the ending, though. 3.0's weirdness will be defined by that ending, no matter what it may be. I've seen some really harsh judgments of it so far, which to me seem unwarranted given that we've only seen the middle of the story.
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Jun 28, 2013 21:04
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They forgot Pen Pen exists. I'm telling you, they're making it like fanfiction on purpose.
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Jul 1, 2013 06:20
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Pen Pen never acknowledges her. He does have a sort of Greek chorus-like aspect to some of his appearances though, commenting on goings on in the apartment by his expression.
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Jul 3, 2013 03:17
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