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When homura goes back in time, is it similar to the time travel in dbz, or is she moving to a previous point in time within the same universe?
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# ? Jan 7, 2016 21:37 |
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# ? May 11, 2024 11:33 |
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Doesn't matter.
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# ? Jan 7, 2016 21:43 |
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Namtab posted:Going back to half of my theory as to why madoka maintains the system (to prevent a paradox), this may also explain why madoka kept homura as a magical girl. Homuras powers were directly responsible for madoka becoming as powerful as she gets. Even under a more ideal solution wherein the bare minimum of magical girls as necessary exist homura needed to have her powers to ensure that madoka gets hers. Yes, but did she need to continue being a Magical Girl in the new world? Homura's existence in the new world is strange, and we really don't have enough information there to say either way. It's worth pointing that Homura as a Magical Girl within the new world is a paradox by definition. If we assume that the creation of wishes is similar or the same as they were in the old world (as with Sayaka), then Homura's wish couldn't have happened there because Madoka didn't exist. What did she wish for in the new world, if she wished for anything at all? As well, wishes themselves are paradoxes by definition, as they involve altering the universe into a new state through "magic". Kyousuke's hand just healing itself for "no reason" is it itself an impossibility. And who knows how many paradoxes happened as a result of destroying Witches? Apparently enough to create a massive Soul Gem capable of destroying the universe. Namtab posted:When homura goes back in time, is it similar to the time travel in dbz, or is she moving to a previous point in time within the same universe? It's the Steins;Gate method of shifting World-Lines given Urobuchi's comments on the matter. From the wiki: "According to an interview in Otona Anime Vol. 20, translated by symbv, here is what Gen Urobuchi said on more of Homura's power: "The weapon that looks like Homura's shield is actually a sand timer. When the flow of the sand is blocked, time is stopped. And when there is no sand on the upper part of the sand timer and then the timer is reverted, one month's worth of time is turned back. But before that stage is reached, only time stopping is possible. This means the special power of Homura is the ability to manipulate one month's time's worth of sand in the sand timer. As for the time passed and then turned back, since it was not the focus in this work I did not think it through very thoroughly. I think you can say that the world split up and became parallel worlds there."" I.E, Homura going back in time alters the "Divergence Factor" (this being the number assigned to a World-Line, such as 0.571024α) of the World-Line enough to shift it over into a new one which has different actions and consequences from the one she left. This explains why Kyousuke played the guitar instead of the violin in Loop 3, and why Oktavia's familiars were dancing Hitomis. Namtab posted:What do you think of kyouko x madoka as a couple. They're secret friends. Lord Justice fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Jan 7, 2016 |
# ? Jan 7, 2016 21:55 |
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Lord Justice posted:It's the Steins;Gate method of shifting World-Lines given Urobuchi's comments on the matter. Kyousuke's playing of a guitar vs. a violin wouldn't change if Homura can only affect the events within her one month's worth of time. The Steins;Gate analogy can probably work, but that's the worst possible example because Homura is not performing any actions (i.e.; sending message back in time) that would effect the worldline up to her start point in each loop. Sure, each loop is a different branch, but they all originate at the same point in time with her waking up in the hospital. The only time something akin to D-mails occurs is with Madoka's wish because it forced the universe to rewrite itself based on a new set of rules.
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# ? Jan 7, 2016 22:40 |
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AlternateNu posted:Kyousuke's playing of a guitar vs. a violin wouldn't change if Homura can only affect the events within her one month's worth of time. The Steins;Gate analogy can probably work, but that's the worst possible example because Homura is not performing any actions (i.e.; sending message back in time) that would effect the worldline up to her start point in each loop. Sure, each loop is a different branch, but they all originate at the same point in time with her waking up in the hospital. There's two methods of time travel in Steins;Gate, and Homura is using the latter version in pretty much the exact same way. When Okabe Time Leaps, he's also shifting World-Lines, we just don't get the effect because it's a present action from his perspective, instead of a past action like the D-Mails. You're correct that Kyousuke playing the guitar doesn't make sense; which is why I prefer the Steins;Gate theory because you can end up in World-Lines which have radically different inputs even aside from your own intervention, such as with the Omega Attractor Field and Faris' ending specifically.
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# ? Jan 7, 2016 22:49 |
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Lord Justice posted:There's two methods of time travel in Steins;Gate, and Homura is using the latter version in pretty much the exact same way. When Okabe Time Leaps, he's also shifting World-Lines, we just don't get the effect because it's a present action from his perspective, instead of a past action like the D-Mails. You're correct that Kyousuke playing the guitar doesn't make sense; which is why I prefer the Steins;Gate theory because you can end up in World-Lines which have radically different inputs even aside from your own intervention, such as with the Omega Attractor Field and Faris' ending specifically. Okabe doesn't shift world lines when he time leaps in the sense that nothing prior to his consciousness being overwritten has changed. Of course, divergence changes in the range of 1x10^-7 or so after that fact based purely on his new actions from that point, but time leaping never changed anything prior to the point he leaped to. Faris' ending occurs because they send another D-mail and there is nothing to say that D-mail necessarily changed anything about Okabe's and Faris' past (e.g., Okabe's childhood w/ Mayuri) on its own. The omega attractor field could easily have been the result of further fuckery by SERN after discovering this new D-mail and altering events to prevent the lab from forming while maintaining D-mail tech knowledge (or some other wack-rear end coincidence). I'm pretty sure the so-called omega field ending wasn't thought out that much when the game was being written, anyway. In either case, you can't use it as a model of Homura changing events prior to her one month loop because she observes all of her own actions. The reason D-mail changes seem so random is because the current Okabe doesn't observe the changes, he only observes the effects of those changes. They're not comparable situations. AlternateNu fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Jan 7, 2016 |
# ? Jan 7, 2016 23:06 |
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Namtab posted:When homura goes back in time, is it similar to the time travel in dbz, or is she moving to a previous point in time within the same universe? Like lj said, and also in the train station there's a sign that alludes to jumping across parallel timelines. ( I haven't read/watched s;g though)
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# ? Jan 7, 2016 23:20 |
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AlternateNu posted:Okabe doesn't shift world lines when he time leaps in the sense that nothing prior to his consciousness being overwritten has changed. Of course, divergence changes in the range of 1x10^-7 or so after that fact based purely on his new actions from that point, but time leaping never changed anything prior to the point he leaped to. This isn't really the thread for it, and I'll just respond one more time and drop it here. If you want to continue the discussion, I'd be happy to do so through PMs. The shifting of WLs is contingent on information being sent from a future point to a past point. Whether it is a D-Mail or Okabe's consciousness, the effect remains the same. Each Time Leap causes the present Okabe to leap into and destroy a past Okabe which exists separately from that present Okabe in an entirely seperate WL by definition. The act of shifting WLs via the sending of information back in time is in itself self-actualizing an entirely new universe, from birth to death, with different inputs as indicated by the Divergence Factor. If the DF is small, then the new universe is probably almost identical to the one he left, but it is still a new universe. Considering this, Time Leaping should actually increase the DF by a much greater margin, as it is an active actor being sent back, and not just a simple message. As well, Time Leaping can result in major shifts, such as Okabe managing to shift himself entirely from the Alpha Attractor Field to the Epsilon Attractor Field in Linear Bounded Phenogram. Essentially, shifting universes can result in different inputs outside of the ones created by the interference of sending information back in time. In Homura's case, she ended up shifting into a universe where there was a different input prior to her waking up in the hospital which resulted in Kyousuke playing the guitar.
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# ? Jan 7, 2016 23:31 |
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I'm gonna allow the full convo itt
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# ? Jan 8, 2016 00:16 |
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a cartoon duck posted:How does Hitomi (Hitomi) figure into this? girls cant love girls
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# ? Jan 8, 2016 02:14 |
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Cardboard Box posted:girls cant love girls Untrue
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# ? Jan 8, 2016 02:31 |
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Lord Justice posted:This isn't really the thread for it, and I'll just respond one more time and drop it here. If you want to continue the discussion, I'd be happy to do so through PMs. Are you talking about Three Contrapasso About The Abduction? Okabe sent two D-mails before Time Leaping in that scenario. He was already in the Epsilon attractor field before he jumped, so your argument about Time Leaping being strong enough to shift world lines like that is still bunk.
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# ? Jan 8, 2016 02:59 |
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Ytlaya posted:While we're shown them teaming up, don't they still need to use whatever they get from the Wraiths to detox their gems? It seems like, while being in a group would be beneficial in terms of surviving battles, you would also need to kill Wraiths more frequently to support more team members. Since Wraiths aren't born from MGs like Witches were, QBs aren't as predatory or cagey with the information, because they have no reason to do so. With the current system it's most efficient to keep them alive as long as possible and dead or excess MGs are a waste. By all appearances the MG system seems to be necessary in some form, so you're gonna have something around. Plus, Madoka is right that the very existence of wishes have had an extremely strong positive impact in the world. Girls don't enter service just because "hey this sounds cool", they have wishes they want fulfilled. That never changed. Removing MGs means removing wishes.
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# ? Jan 8, 2016 03:16 |
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What is the importance of Madoka growing up in a somewhat untraditional family model (husband taking care of the home and children and wife being the bread-winner rather than the opposite) on Madoka's character arc and the story as a whole?
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# ? Jan 8, 2016 14:15 |
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a cartoon duck posted:What is the importance of Madoka growing up in a somewhat untraditional family model (husband taking care of the home and children and wife being the bread-winner rather than the opposite) on Madoka's character arc and the story as a whole? I think that aspect isn't played up. Junko being a strong role model is important to Madoka's character, so naturally the family was written like that.
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# ? Jan 8, 2016 14:38 |
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Namtab posted:What do you think of kyouko x madoka as a couple.
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# ? Jan 8, 2016 15:55 |
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a cartoon duck posted:What is the importance of Madoka growing up in a somewhat untraditional family model (husband taking care of the home and children and wife being the bread-winner rather than the opposite) on Madoka's character arc and the story as a whole? Kill all men
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# ? Jan 8, 2016 15:56 |
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Namtab posted:Kill all men Spoilered for gore
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# ? Jan 8, 2016 17:25 |
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Mordaedil posted:Spoilered for gore Please don't admit to reading saya no uta, tyia
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# ? Jan 8, 2016 17:27 |
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# ? Jan 8, 2016 18:20 |
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Epic response. Witty banter. Don't admit to saya no uta.
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# ? Jan 8, 2016 19:17 |
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AlternateNu posted:Are you talking about Three Contrapasso About The Abduction? Okabe sent two D-mails before Time Leaping in that scenario. He was already in the Epsilon attractor field before he jumped, so your argument about Time Leaping being strong enough to shift world lines like that is still bunk. Yeah, you're right. I really shouldn't be attempting to debate on something I read months ago and am mis-remembering specifics on. My apologies. Kyte posted:By all appearances the MG system seems to be necessary in some form, so you're gonna have something around. Plus, Madoka is right that the very existence of wishes have had an extremely strong positive impact in the world. Girls don't enter service just because "hey this sounds cool", they have wishes they want fulfilled. That never changed. Removing MGs means removing wishes. While wishes can have positive outcomes, are those outcomes worth it? It's important to remember that these wishes are not free, and they involve the destruction of the person making it. You aren't just giving up your soul to the Incubators, you're destroying any chance you have of a future. Most likely you'll be dead in a few years at the very, very best, and more likely you'll last a couple of weeks to a couple of months. So Kyousuke got his hand healed, but it cost Sayaka her life. Was it worth it? I would argue no. Nagisa wishes for cheesecake, Madoka wishes to save a cat, etc etc.You can make certain arguments for some wishes, such as Mami's, which is her literally wishing to not die in that car crash. But even then it only buys her a couple of mostly miserable and incredibly lonely years of constant battle. Kyouko manages to wish herself out of poverty and starvation, but... Her father being who he is, this wish also leads to the destruction of Kyouko's entire family. Wishes always carry a curse with them, in some form or another. The guaranteed result is that the person making it will be dead sooner rather than later, and the positive outcome could also turn intensely negative. As well, not all wishes are positively made! Oriko Extra Story has a wish where a girl wants to control those who are "better" than her. Suzune Magica has an instance where a girl just wishes her sister into non-existence. The thing to remember is that wishes are made by pre-teen to early teen girls, and most wishes are either going to be incredibly banal, or arise from some negative situation leading to an overall bad wish. a cartoon duck posted:What is the importance of Madoka growing up in a somewhat untraditional family model (husband taking care of the home and children and wife being the bread-winner rather than the opposite) on Madoka's character arc and the story as a whole? In my view, Junko represents the opposite of what a Magical Girl is. Magical Girls are a quick and easy access via wish fulfillment to what the girl in question wants. We see this with Madoka, as she wants to be useful to people. But instead of working within "normalcy" and not destroying herself through martyrdom, she opts to make a wish and become a concept. Junko then represents success for a woman outside of this system, a person who didn't need the Incubators and their wishes to succeed and have their desires fulfilled. Lord Justice fucked around with this message at 08:42 on Jan 9, 2016 |
# ? Jan 8, 2016 20:38 |
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Namtab posted:Epic response. Witty banter. Don't admit to saya no uta. Only ever put in as much effort into posting as your conversation partner, you know. Also, saya no uta is good. You are not.
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# ? Jan 8, 2016 20:42 |
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Let's all be friends
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# ? Jan 8, 2016 20:44 |
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Mordaedil posted:Only ever put in as much effort into posting as your conversation partner, you know. Embarrassing to see this level of hostility from someone defending a paedophile vn. Shameful.
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# ? Jan 8, 2016 21:19 |
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It's not pedo if it's an eldritch monster!
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# ? Jan 8, 2016 21:31 |
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Eldritch monster children are still children (I haven't read Saya no Uta, but isn't the eldritch monster also really young?)Lord Justice posted:So Kyousuke got his hand healed, but it cost Sayaka her life. Was it worth it? I would argue no. While this is obviously correct (since Sayaka's wish being "worth it" is dependent upon Sayaka having an extremely low sense of self-worth), I think that you might have interpreted Madoka's words wrongly. Think of it this way; Madoka would kind of be a douchebag if she told Sayaka "yeah looks like you hosed up and healing Kyousuke wasn't worth it, sucks to be you." Comforting someone after they suffer (and in this case even die) for making a bad decision is a normal thing to do, especially if the bad decision at least had some positive effect. You would have a point of Madoka had supported Sayaka contracting and making her wish in the first place, but that wasn't the case.
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# ? Jan 8, 2016 21:31 |
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Namtab posted:Embarrassing to see this level of hostility from someone defending a paedophile vn. Shameful. Good job missing the entire point. Also, yes that is bad. It isn't a perfect visual novel. It's supposed to be revolting.
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# ? Jan 8, 2016 21:34 |
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Ytlaya posted:Eldritch monster children are still children (I haven't read Saya no Uta, but isn't the eldritch monster also really young?) Um, I think so? It was like, an inter dimensional being whose sole purpose was to infest other realities. But this one got bonk'd on the head and needed ~true love~ before it could do its business? Something to that effect.
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# ? Jan 8, 2016 21:34 |
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Ytlaya posted:Eldritch monster children are still children (I haven't read Saya no Uta, but isn't the eldritch monster also really young?) I feel this is negated somewhat by the fact that Madoka wasn't powerless in that situation. She could have saved Sayaka's life. It would have been a pretty awful thing to say to Sayaka at the time, yes, but honestly, Sayaka really needed to be brought to task on what she did anyway. Sayaka doesn't exist in a vacuum, and she also hurt a lot of people with her wish:
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# ? Jan 8, 2016 22:06 |
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Saya no Uta were it not for the more or less required VN tropes of questionable aged children having sex would get a lot more credit. Urobuchi does a wonderful job of causing you to have sympathy with individuals doing unspeakably horrible things (murder, rape, slavery, torture, to name a few). It's also a commentary on aesthetics (Tokyo Ghoul did this a little but from more of a "socialization" aspect). Would you eat bread if it tasted like feces? Would you eat feces if it was the most heavenly palate pleasing taste you've ever had happen? Saya also reflects this in her appearance. Would you love that which would provide you happiness when all others would reject you and it? The ending is very Urobuchi as well in the "character gets what they need/want but at great cost to themself or others" I won't spoil it. It's sad that as a very good Urobuchi work it has to be mired by its form of media.
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# ? Jan 9, 2016 18:34 |
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That will be enough talking about Saya no Uta in this thread. EDIT: Actually, if we've sunk to this level we could probably just use a new thread altogether. Bad Seafood fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Jan 9, 2016 |
# ? Jan 9, 2016 21:34 |
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# ? May 11, 2024 11:33 |
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I wish for a new, better thread.
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# ? Jan 9, 2016 21:43 |